Total War is returning to it\'s routs.

[theforce]

Oh yeah baby. Even if guns will be accessible in later times for most of the time and online players shall be forced to use their minds to get a victory rather than getting guns and depend on them to win.
Even there are archers l now think that the one who shall win is the one that uses his melee in the best way! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness

[youssof_Toda]

the fine thing about stw was that you had to be good at BOTH melee and range. and range was not only about simply having the most guns bout about how to use them and to protect them.

[Emp. Conralius]

I didn't know people online would resort to only guns to ensure victory. They're great weapons though. I think the best possible ranged infantry in MTW would be a highly trained, highly disciplined unit of longbows. Although the Jannisaries also will induce much suffering.

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

"only guns" would be quite literally suicidal - one single unit of cheap light horses such as hobilars would rout em without breaking a sweat.

Open order - charge, game over.

When EVER you put artillery undefended by other troops they are sitting ducks especially to mounted troops... even the AI can deal with that situation ;-)

[Emp. Conralius]

yea, but I'de think if you sent some light cavalry, on open ground straight to a few units of guns, they'de shoot the hobilars down to the point of route before any contact could be made. Well thats what I think, from the way you stated it. Remember how guns would tear through all forms of cavalry in Shogun. And when I said "only guns", I was implying that that was the only ranged units being used. Not just a huge army of guns.

[theforce]

I am sure they shall protected by heavy infantry http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness

[NinjaKilla]

No doubt, guns will not be a problem, but you can bet that within a couple of weeks of the games release, other units and combinations will be indentified as equally powerful... despite what the developers might intent.

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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)

[DrNo]

NinjaKiller,
Having looked through the stats I can safely say no 1 troop type will dominate like the WM did in STW.

The closest I think we will get to that is the ChivalricKnights. They are great mounted, and when dismounted get a cavalry attack bonus making them the best h-t-h unit.
However put them in the desert and the fatigue level will make them easy prey for archers.

To a certain extent I think you are right , but different groups will dominate different parts of the maps, giving the variety that STW lacked.
e.g. for English, longbows combined with Billmen will make an awsome combination at relativly little cost.

There is also the fact that different units become available at different times adn to different factions, and with the apparant ease at which units gain valour, some of the lesser units may just spring some surprises.

Anyone tried the handgun unit yet?

I did and it really didn't seem very useful, with very little range.

[theforce]

It shall require more flexibility in your army so my eastern armies shall be consisted of more light infantry and cavalry!

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I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!
http://www.dedicatedgaming.com/~angelsofdarkness

[Emp. Conralius]

I agree with theforce. The speed and cunning of the Eastern European Armies would beat the cumbersome and impetuous western knights. I'de imagine out of all the factions that the Turks posses the best unit. Instead of guessing who has the best units, you could read entire unit descriptions on page 2 of the Medieval Total War discussion entitled "Unit Descriptions" or go to the Org to find out.

[Emp. Conralius]

["OttomanInfantry_desc"]
{"Well armed and armoured, Ottoman infantry are tough enough to be in the vanguard of any Turkish army. They are well equipped with bows and axes (which give them an advantage against armoured enemies), and well trained and disciplined. Usually, they can be relied on to defeat most infantry."}

["OttomanSipahi_desc"]
{"Turkish Sipahi differ from many European troops in one important respect – discipline. They are professionals who can be relied on to obey orders. Deployed correctly, the only units the Sipahi need fear are spearmen or pikemen. Their equipment is fully the equal of any other heavy cavalry."}

[Emp. Conralius]

["JanissaryBows_desc"]
{"Yeni Cheri' - the 'New Soldiers' - are a new Turkish system for national and royal (not feudal) armies. Disciplined, drilled and professional, Janissary Archers are intended to break up and weaken enemy formations so that the other soldiers of the Janissary corps can move in for the kill."}

["JanissaryHeavyInfantry_desc"]
{"Janissaries are the capable, disciplined elite of Turkish armies with a fearsome reputation. These heavy shock troops are supposed to batter a way through enemy armies so that others can pour through the gap. They are heavily armoured, and armed with polearms that give them an advantage in close combat."}

["JanissaryInfantry_desc"]
{"The Janissaries are raised from provincial children taken into the Sultan’s service, and trained to do nothing but fight and obey. Janissaries do not fight for personal honour; they fight to win. These soldiers are armed with bows and swords, making them a tactically flexible and powerful unit."}

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

Quote Originally posted by DrNo:
NinjaKiller,
Having looked through the stats I can safely say no 1 troop type will dominate like the WM did in STW.

The closest I think we will get to that is the ChivalricKnights. They are great mounted, and when dismounted get a cavalry attack bonus making them the best h-t-h unit.
However put them in the desert and the fatigue level will make them easy prey for archers.

To a certain extent I think you are right , but different groups will dominate different parts of the maps, giving the variety that STW lacked.
e.g. for English, longbows combined with Billmen will make an awsome combination at relativly little cost.

There is also the fact that different units become available at different times adn to different factions, and with the apparant ease at which units gain valour, some of the lesser units may just spring some surprises.

Anyone tried the handgun unit yet?

I did and it really didn't seem very useful, with very little range.[/QUOTE]

Take a look at "Order Foot" if its in the demo list - these guys are simply awesome..they just wont lie down and die.

EMp - loose-order hobilars (any fat cav) are pretty impervious to guns simply because by the time the guns fire the cavalry are inside the projectile arc... so long as you keep em moving fast its "game over" (bar lucky shots etc)

Most artillery is only "really" dangerous where you have large open distances to walk acros with slow foot and if you deploy in ranks... aiming at the fron ranks the ammo can bounce through multiple units.

Again its down, in the MP game, to how "stupid" the opponent is.

In SP i had the AI do this very thing and i wiped em out big time - but that was a naive ai general. next time i was in a similar situation the ai general raced cavalry (and cav archers) round my flanks whilst his foot trudged on - although i hurt his foot i was taking major hurt from his cav archers and eventually "had" to respond by moving out my own cav - crossing my gun line and thus shutting them down... my heavy cav were then tired before the main mellee slug-fest and also scattered.

Ai didnt win but there wasnt a lot else it could've done really given the flat map we were on. It seemed quite promising, although, as ever, the AI still isnt "that" much of a challenge... no AI ever has been though.

Hopefully they will keep tweaking it - especially int erms of foot approaching gun lines.

[Emp. Conralius]

well, the guy said he would issue a single order so the whole loose formation comment really didn't apply to what we were saying.

[youssof_Toda]

i don't recall monks in stw being as dominant as the guns in mi. monks were a must have but using them in very large numbers was not a real option.