View Full Version : Manhunt 2 has gotten banned in the UK
Got posted at TWC so might as well share it here.
http://www.pocketgamer.co.uk/r/PSP/Manhunt+2/news.asp?c=3374
Yep, BBFC has banned Manhunt 2 from being released in the UK.
Before even the first screenshots came out.:dizzy2:
The Blind King of Bohemia
06-19-2007, 14:25
Most will just order it on import anyway mate. If manhunt got a sequel they need to do one for the warriors. God I love that game
Manhunt was ok. It got a bit boring watching cash slaughtering everyone. The only time I had a laugh was in the mental hospital level, icing the "wichta wichta man" blokes
Geoffrey S
06-19-2007, 15:34
There are screenshots out, I believe there was also a video, and various previews leave nothing to the imagination about the gameplay mechanics. Personally I find the game and the concept behind it sickening and cannot fathom what enjoyment one can gain from it, but is banning the answer? To be honest, until more is done to make sure 18+ games arrive at the correct audience it's the only approach that can be taken, but that won't stop imports or downloads.
I will automatically assume MH2 to be very stylish as its foregoer. I'd also have to assume its just that: style (over substance).
It is banned there? They will, indeed, just import or download the goods.
Lorenzo_H
06-19-2007, 21:40
It's banned because here in Britain a little kid beat his friend to death with a cricket bat after playing it.
Geoffrey S
06-19-2007, 21:59
...despite police stating explicitely that the motivation was robbery and had nothing to do with the game...
It's banned because here in Britain a little kid beat his friend to death with a cricket bat after playing it.
The first Manhunt hysteria...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_%28video_game%29
In the UK, the game was linked to the murder of Stefan Pakeerah, 14, by his friend Warren Leblanc, 17. Giselle Pakeerah, the victim's mother, claimed that Leblanc had been 'obsessed' with the game after the former pleaded guilty in court. During the subsequent media circus, the game was removed from sale by some vendors, such as the UK and international branches of GAME and Dixons, leading to "significantly increased" demand both from retailers and on internet auction sites. The police denied any such link between the game and the murder however, citing drug-related robbery as the motive. The presiding judge also placed sole responsibility with Leblanc in his summing up after awarding him a life sentence. GAME have since returned Manhunt to their shelves, after it transpired that the murderer did not even own or ever play the game. It was apparently the victim who owned a copy of Manhunt, even though he was under 18.
So not only was it the victim that had the game, and the parents let him have the game even though he was underage, they tried to pin in on the game for whatever reason they could come up with. Which the press never really reported afterwards, since it wouldn't be sexy news...
Hysteria, press, and free advertising. Rockstar couldn't be happier.
TevashSzat
06-20-2007, 03:20
Sigh....the videogame industry is just a scapegoat since it has not grown as big as the music, television, or movie industry which has alot more lobbyists in Congress. One would think that doing something in Manhunt 2 which is obviously fake and not realistic would not be as horrible as some of the tortures they have in some of the Saw series which although is R rated, can be seen incredibly easily
Geoffrey S
06-20-2007, 09:26
Sigh....the videogame industry is just a scapegoat since it has not grown as big as the music, television, or movie industry which has alot more lobbyists in Congress. One would think that doing something in Manhunt 2 which is obviously fake and not realistic would not be as horrible as some of the tortures they have in some of the Saw series which although is R rated, can be seen incredibly easily
True. Saw, I could take. But its sequels, and filth like Hostel, I cannot understand where the appeal lies.
professorspatula
06-20-2007, 12:19
What never impressed me about Manhunt 1, aside from it not being a particularly great game, was how you are rewarded for killing in the sickest way possible. The more terrible ways you killed someone, the more direct reward and pleasure you got from it. In a sense you're actively rewarded throughout for being a sicko psychopath! Yes you murder and go on violent killing sprees in other games, but the death and methods in Manhunt were more intimate. When you watch a violent movie where heads get chopped off, you're not actively taking part in that scene or getting direct feedback from it; I think that's where the differences in movies and games lie - immediate response to the actions. Only in movies you generally go 'ewwww!' when a head rolls off, but in a game you go 'yea, again!'. Manhunt is probably the only time I've played a violent game and had to step back from it and wonder just what the hell is going on to make us want to play this kind of a game. With the graphics and environments in games getting more realistic all the time, I can only assume MH2 raised a few more eyebrows with the censors.
Geoffrey S
06-20-2007, 12:48
Not to mention the Wii version requiring similar movement with the controller to the executions taking place in-game. I really think that takes things that step too far.
Grey_Fox
06-20-2007, 13:05
That could be part of it Geoffrey, but not the main reason since it's been banned on all consoles.
Not to mention the Wii version requiring similar movement with the controller to the executions taking place in-game. I really think that takes things that step too far.
hehehe can't wait to use the saw. Yeah it's a sick game, but it's also extremily atmospheric. Really looking forward to part deux.
Manhunt 2 is getting the dreaded "AO" (adults only) rating from the ESRB here in the states. Which pretty much eliminates it from being sold at the big-box retailers.
Probably the correct rating, but it looks like they will need a alternate outlet for sales.
Can't find a link without profane user comments on it, but it shows up on Google.
Mikeus Caesar
06-20-2007, 17:56
Meh, it's just another Rockstar game, made to get people to buy it through shock value.
Since GTA: San Andreas i've been of the opinion that all Rockstar games are mindless and pointless.
Rodion Romanovich
06-20-2007, 18:22
At first I thought this was another stupid videogame banning incident, but this seems like a really pointless bloodbath of a game, so the ban is fine with me. If this becomes a trend that carries over to normal games however, I'll sharpen my sarissa and stock up on ammo for my M1 Garand :wink:
noooooooooooooooo it's an extreme alright but Manhunt was one hell of a game. It's about being in a snuff movie, so naturally there is a lot of violence, it's concept is really tight and well realised. It has a few moments that are just brilliant, but it's scary all the way, no comic relief whatsoever, just an awesome feeling of dread. And it's long, and each level is weirder and crueler then the last. Especially the assylum. geez.
'I know you've been drinking again Maryyyyyyyyy' :fainting:
Well looks like Manhunt 2 has gotten shot down.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172830.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;0
Both Sony and Nintendo has banned it :wall: :no:
Now Rockstar can't release the game at all.
Was worried this would happen, they will have to cut back on the gore if we are ever to play this title. Kinda wonder what makes part deux so vicious compared to the first, some truly gruesome stuff in that one and it only got a mature rating. It isn't just the Wiimote simulation, ps2 gets AO as well. Bleh, an AO title on a nintendo system, they sadly can't do that, it's a family console. Have to draw a line somewhere :no:
so moody, throw in towel Rockstar, I want it.
http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/784/784806/manhunt-2-20070501011425091.jpg
http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/796/796509/manhunt-2-20070614010828275.jpg
bedlam28
06-21-2007, 11:52
I find the whole idea of banning ridiculous. The focus should be on inforcing the Rating.
AO rating seems perfectly acceptable. And whilst we cant control adults letting kids play it, the rule is there and could possibly be enforced if it was found necessary. Like the whole 'over-feeding is abuse' debate raging in UK.
If an adult lets a kid play it, then the adult is at fault. but there will always be those that ignore the ratings, those with a screw loose that take a media into reality.
But to stop an entire country from playing a game for these few idiots and loons is a bad start down a worse path.
It would be like banning 'Polly' by Nirvana because of those 2 sickos that attacked a girl whilst singing it. Kurt Cobain was horrified by these people, but the song wasn't banned.
but thats just one adults opinion, someone who has seen Saw and Hostel, played GTA and Manhunt and Not killed anyone.
English assassin
06-21-2007, 13:03
Ban or no ban, I cannot understand why anyone would want to play this game, any more than I can understand the appeal of Saw or Hostel.
Maybe I am getting old.
bedlam28
06-21-2007, 13:52
To be honest English Assasin, I think its the same appeal that comes for any other genre.
All such media stirs something, be it laughter and happiness of a comedy, triumph of achievement in taking over the world in Total Wars, the heat of battle in Battlefield 2142 or the sweat, fear and grotesque of Saw and Manhunt.
Each style of game, each genre of movie, each style of music stirs something.
and its a different something in each of us.
To be scared, or horrified for me is the same as when I laugh so hard I cant breathe, or I feel a tear escape in a society where 'men dont cry'. They bring a clarity of feeling that is something I love in all my games and movies.
You can't have a light without a dark to stick it in.
Arlo Guthrie (1947 - )
If you've never seen darkness, how can you truly appreciate the light?
ohhh philosophy LOL.
doc_bean
06-21-2007, 13:57
Ban or no ban, I cannot understand why anyone would want to play this game, any more than I can understand the appeal of Saw or Hostel.
Maybe I am getting old.
I saw (heh..) Hostel and Saw without realizing their reputation, and frankly I think the disgust factor is overrated, they're not worse than some 80s horror movies I've seen, and certainly not more disturbing than your average holocaust documentary or some books I've read. They aren't great movies but they weren't bad either.
Not that Manhunt2 interests me. Is there even a motive for going around killing people ?
English assassin
06-21-2007, 14:40
If you've never seen darkness, how can you truly appreciate the light?
Quite easily IMHO. I can enjoy flowers and little bunny rabbits with snuffly noses without having to think, phew, at least no one is being dismembered and made to eat their own fingers.
To be more specific, I personally do not get the appeal of gross. I like a good creepy horror movie, or even a (frankly pretty gross) thriller like Seven. I just don't need to see fountains of blood.
Its not specific to movies or games, I didn't like American Psycho (the book) either. (Although as a satire on the 80s I think its a good book, artistically.)
Louis VI the Fat
06-21-2007, 15:43
Doc, assassin, here's a hot tip! I hate FPS, because I'm not at all interested in midless blood and gore, whether games or movies or otherwise. However, there is this one FPS gem, No One Lives Forever. (1 + 2)
These two games totally rule. Absolutelly brilliant, witty, clever and oozling with style. It's Austin Powers meets sixties spy shows. I can not recommend them highly enough. Not to mention, you two sound like people who'd totally get the humour of these games.
NOLF 1 (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/operativenoonelivesforever/review.html)
NOLF 2 (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/noonelivesforever2asihw/index.html)
:2thumbsup:
bedlam28
06-22-2007, 09:57
Cheers Louis I'll take a look. Love Austin Powers films.
And English, thanks for a decent discussion. Its so nice to debate without the whole, your dumb, no you are that you find in most forums.
I like that kind of stuff and you dont, and you made a good arguement for your opinion.
So which TW you into ??
subtle change of subject huh, Hehe.
Good gaming.
Mikeus Caesar
06-22-2007, 10:19
I find the whole idea of banning ridiculous. The focus should be on inforcing the Rating.
AO rating seems perfectly acceptable. And whilst we cant control adults letting kids play it, the rule is there and could possibly be enforced if it was found necessary. Like the whole 'over-feeding is abuse' debate raging in UK.
If an adult lets a kid play it, then the adult is at fault. but there will always be those that ignore the ratings, those with a screw loose that take a media into reality.
But to stop an entire country from playing a game for these few idiots and loons is a bad start down a worse path.
It would be like banning 'Polly' by Nirvana because of those 2 sickos that attacked a girl whilst singing it. Kurt Cobain was horrified by these people, but the song wasn't banned.
but thats just one adults opinion, someone who has seen Saw and Hostel, played GTA and Manhunt and Not killed anyone.
Actually, i recall reading in the paper that some guy from the BBFC even said that not even adults should play this. And i whole-heartedly agree with him. Just another stupid violent rockstar game.
And the whole 'im an adult whos played these games and not killed anyone' argument is getting old. Can't you violence lovers find something else to stick at the end of your bad arguments?
AntiochusIII
06-22-2007, 11:57
And the whole 'im an adult whos played these games and not killed anyone' argument is getting old. Can't you violence lovers find something else to stick at the end of your bad arguments?Well, the "bad argument" is true. :book:
We all know what different game genres are for. People just have different urges at different times because of different things. I never played Manhunt and don't know the degree of its brutality but I know I'd rather play a gory blast-the-damn-thing-over FPS rather than some head-scratching strategy games at the end of a terrible, terrible day. Some moods just ask to be relieved not by "slick chic flicks & co." but by graphic videogaming violence.
Just because you think it's stupid (and it probably is) doesn't mean you can just ban it, you know. That's, well, against my human rights. :dizzy2:
That's why whene we ban games herebecause of violence, they can still be bought by adults and I think complete bans are only due when there is Nazi or other forbidden content(that's why some games have different flag textures here).
And concerning the argument that you may need a violent game after a bad day, does it really have to be that violent and pointless? You could just hunt some river pirates in Mount&Blade or so.:dizzy2:
English assassin
06-22-2007, 14:46
Doc, assassin, here's a hot tip! I hate FPS, because I'm not at all interested in midless blood and gore, whether games or movies or otherwise. However, there is this one FPS gem, No One Lives Forever. (1 + 2)
Top stuff, cheers, will check it out. :2thumbsup:
And English, thanks for a decent discussion. Its so nice to debate without the whole, your dumb, no you are that you find in most forums.
I like that kind of stuff and you dont, and you made a good arguement for your opinion.
So which TW you into ??
The org is an island of good manners in a howling universe of,err, howlingness. Umm, I may get back to you on that sentence.
MTW. Still a great game. I skipped RTW, as it didn't seem that well received on here by the people who liked MTW. I got M2TW, but never got into it. Its a bit flaky on my PC which doesn't help, but mainly I just didn't think it did anything better enough compared to MTW to be worth the bother.
Mmm...MTW...must resist....
edyzmedieval
06-22-2007, 15:32
I played Manhunt for like 10 mins, and then I instantly deleted it. That game is so ******* sick, just like almost all Rockstar games. Those guys are totally sick!
While I dont agree with banning it, I do say that it's a stupid game.
bedlam28
06-22-2007, 16:06
Worse than me liking Manhunt would be the news that I totally missed out on MTW. Never played it.
Came in on discovering RTW and I only found that as I enjoyed the Time Commanders on BBC2.
Loved RTW and bought MTW2, but MTW2 is so different in style, and I find the battles so slow and lacking in impact that I've reverted back to RTW for a while.
But nope. never had the pleasure of MTW.
As for the whole banning thing, in this
howling universe of,err, howlingness (hehe thanks English, ) each ban is a new precedent and THAT i disagree with, regardless of if the game is gross or not.
but hey, it could be worse, they could Ban world domination games as terrorist activity and Full Spectrum Warrior as Training videos !!!
so lets be glad its just the gross stuff being banned.
Bob the Insane
06-22-2007, 16:10
I don't understand how the arguement that the my chosen form of entertainment, while virtually violent, does not hurt anyone or required people (or animals) to be hurt in it's production is a bad arguement.
While I understand it may not be suitable for all age groups within our society I fully agree with the certification and the enforcement of the certification system to protect these groups during their formitive years. Whether a link is ever proved or not, we as a society chose act to protect the young from it (although may individual parents do not).
While playing these games with adult themes (in our western society that basically means sex and violence) I am not actively partaking in any form of actual violence and breaking any laws and even rules within our society. In fact I am sat on on sofa or behind my PC and as such I am not sure what the problem is.
The chief worry I have is where does it stop? And why are different standards being applied to my chosen form of media entertain as opposed to others? I have not played Manhunt and will likely never play Manhunt 2 but I am not sure what they could put in it that it is not in The Hills Have Eyes or Hostel?
Now if this is an discussion about whether there should be violence displayed in any form of media based entertainment that is another question entirely...
I don't think the AO rating is going to stick- Rockstar will end up having to tone it down until it can just squeeze into a M rating.
From what I've heard, neither Nintendo nor Sony will certify AO games to publication on their systems. Further, all of the big retail chains also refuse to stock/sell AO games. An AO rating, while not leading to an outright ban in the US, would be a virtual ban since you could pretty much only order it online and most platforms would not support it anyhow.
frogbeastegg
06-22-2007, 19:27
Take Two have shelved (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=78278) Manhunt 2 'temporarily'. Amusingly they claim to have shelved it for the PS2, Wii and PSP - Sony and Nintendo stated yesterday the game would not be allowed to appear on their platforms because of the rating.
A couple of quotes I saw included in an article about why this has been banned:
Consider for one moment that in Manhunt 2 you can, Wii remote and nunchuk in hands, use a pair of pliers to clamp onto an enemy's testicles and literally tear them from his body in a bloody display; and if that weren't enough, you'll take one of the poor victim's vertebrae along with his manhood. Or, if you'd prefer, you can use a saw blade and cut upward into a foe's groin and buttocks, motioning forward and backward with the Wii remote as you go. But believe it or not, there is much more to Manhunt 2 than mutilation and mayhem. This is a game that begins with the subject of psychosis.
Source: IGN's Wii preview (http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/792/792012p1.html) The preview goes on to detail a lot more about the violence in the game, especially on page 2, where you'll find descriptions like "Danny bashes a hunter's face into an electrical box, where raw power surges through it and eventually blows his head apart."
The ultra-violent videogame Manhunt 2 allows you to rape a woman shortly after you beheaded her in the brothel level called Honey Pot. Members of the ESRB were shocked when Daniel Lamb used his male reproduction organ and simulated a penetration in the bloody hole. Other gruesome parts include microwaving a living cat to death and being a witness of necrophilia in a cemetery in one of the later stage of the game.
This one had no direct source, but has apparantly been posted in a few places.
If you look on the BBFC website you can see some details on the material they tested, including the following:
n/a - (00:20:05:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 1
n/a - (00:10:10:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 2
n/a - (00:20:47:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 3
n/a - (00:12:23:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 4
n/a - (00:17:03:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 5
n/a - (00:05:42:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 6
n/a - (00:13:52:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 7
n/a - (00:14:15:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 8
n/a - (00:09:36:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 9
n/a - (00:13:22:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 10
n/a - (00:18:55:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 11
n/a - (00:12:41:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 12
n/a - (00:12:30:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 13
n/a - (00:16:36:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 14
n/a - (00:18:43:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 15
n/a - (00:10:51:00) PLAYTHROUGH - LEVEL 16
00:01:50:00 A01_I(ASYLUM INTRO).MOV
00:00:31:00 A02_I (GHOSTS INTRO).MOV
00:00:40:00 A02_O (GHOSTS OUTRO).MOV
00:00:40:00 A04_I (SEXUAL DEVIANTS).MOV
00:00:37:00 A04_O (SEXUAL DEVIANTS).MOV
00:00:14:00 A06_I (MOST WANTED).MOV
00:00:21:00 A07_I (RED LIGHT).MOV
00:00:21:00 A09_I (RITUAL CLEANSING).MOV
00:01:00:00 A10_I (THE HONEY POT.MOV
00:00:30:00 A10_O (THE HONEY POT).MOV
00:00:36:00 A11_I (ORIGINS).MOV
00:01:59:00 A11_O (ORIGINS).MOV
00:00:36:00 A12_I (ASSASSINATION).MOV
00:00:40:00 A14_I (BEST FRIENDS INTRO).MOV
00:00:50:00 A16_I(BROADCAST INTERRUPTED).MOV
00:00:12:00 A17_I (ALTERED STATE).MOV
00:00:41:00 A17_O (ALTERED STATE).MOV
00:01:07:00 A18_I(MANOR).MOV
00:01:07:00 A18_O(MANOR).MOV
00:00:59:00 A20_I(THE_END_1).MOV
00:01:00:00 A20_O(THE_END_2).MOV
00:00:52:00 A21_O(ENDACT2).MOV
00:03:04:00 CREDITS.MOV
00:00:05:00 MH2_STING.MOV
00:02:10:00 LEVEL 1 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:55:00 LEVEL 2 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:02:41:00 LEVEL 3 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:01:11:00 LEVEL 4 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:01:10:00 LEVEL 5 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:18:00 LEVEL 6 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:58:00 LEVEL 7 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:06:00 LEVEL 8 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:23:00 LEVEL 9 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:47:00 LEVEL 10 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:42:00 LEVEL 11 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:42:00 LEVEL 12 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:26:00 LEVEL 13 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:39:00 LEVEL 14 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:11:00 LEVEL 15 RENDERED SEQUENCES
00:00:52:00 LEVEL 16 RENDERED SEQUENCES
Note the names of some of the levels; they seem to support the two quotes above. According to the IGN Wii preview the Honey Pot level is a S&M club filled with sex offenders and torture devices.
A cut down version of the game could be unlikely. The BBFC statement included the following quote: "Where possible we try to consider cuts or, in the case of games, modifications which remove the material which contravenes the Board's published Guidelines. In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible."
Never played Manhunt. Never wanted to. It revolted me. Can't say I'm sad to see the sequel banned.
AntiochusIII
06-22-2007, 21:16
You could just hunt some river pirates in Mount&Blade or so.:dizzy2:Oh, I certainly could -- I never played Manhunt after all, and the limit of my (videogame) violence is relegated to Unreal Tournament -- but others might; and as much as the game revolts me banning it is just against my principle about censorship in general.
Enforce the ratings? Why not. And Sony/Nintendo's decision about this is Sony/Nintendo's business.
I was talking in general, if someone cannot cool down without mutilating people in a vrtual world, meabe he needs professional help?
While I'm obviously not against violence, I do find it good that a line is drawn somewhere because I find the violence-voyeurism of some people quite shocking to be honest.
If someone would sit behind a window in a torture chamber and direct someone else to mutilate other people so he can watch it, wouldn't you think that's pretty sick? In a game noone is hurt, but the intention is the same, some people enjoy seeing people(even if virtual, they do look like people) being hurt and mutilated in gruesome ways(and there is a connection to the real world because it's modeled after the real world) and they also choose in what way it's done. And the problem I see is that violence is the purpose, the reward, the goal and basically the only essence of the game. In most other games there are other factors playing into the mix and violence is a product of them, but here violence is about the only game content.
That's why I support banning such games, they serve no other purpose than promoting violence for the sake of violence which is just wrong(think of students beating others up in schools just for the fun of it, I'm not saying these games necessarily cause it, but they may play into it).
Marius Dynamite
06-22-2007, 22:54
Im with Bob the Insane (4 posts back) on this one.
To add more, the UK is fast becoming a "nanny nation!". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/20/negg119.xml
Thats about the "Go to work on an egg" advert being banned because it doesn't promote a "varied diet". Yes, that right. They banned an advert which encourages people to have an egg in the morning because it doesn't promote a varied diet. Of course, the Kit-Kat advert is ok. "Have a break, have a Kit-Kat". Someone should really tell the "TV Advert Watchdog Risk assessor" that Kit-Kat is 2 separate foods and therefore this advert must be stopped! For Christ sake think of the millions who are buying Kit-Kats unaware it is not a varied diet!
Anyway what I am saying is the people who ban these things are usually people who are in made-up jobs. What genius went to University and took the course on "risk assessing" and now has the unrivaled knowledge as to whether or not ManHunt 2 is too violent for the people of the United Kingdom. If the game breaches copyrights, ban it. If the game shows people without peoples consent, ban it. If it shows BT without consent (As in The Getaway, I believe) then ok, ban it. If its extremely violent and could cause someone a fright or scare a young child, slap a lovely big warning somewhere on the case and stop trying to control peoples interests. Its not your job.
I don't understand how the arguement that the my chosen form of entertainment, while virtually violent, does not hurt anyone or required people (or animals) to be hurt in it's production is a bad arguement.
Well, we are getting into Backroom territory here and I know in the past (I think it was with Manhunt 1, ironically) frogbeastegg ruled such discussion as being off topic for the Arena. But it is a fair point and so I will pursue it if allowed.
I used to subscribe to the libertarian notion you propose too: that what people choose to do in their own time should be legal, so long as no one is hurt. It is a very powerful argument and underpinned, for example, the legalisation of homosexuality in the UK in 1967.
It should be noted that the libertarian argument is only really powerful when applied to adults. And I suspect in this case, the censors were probably worried about kids. While in principle, both an ultra-violent movie and an ultra-violent game could make their way into the hands of kids, I think it is plausible to assume the leakage would be greater with games. Games are more kids' things than video nasties and piracy is probably more established with them too[1].
However, at a more fundamental level, I am starting to have doubts about taking the libertarian argument to the extreme. I think it is plausible to think ultra-liberalism might lead to a general lowering of standards and morality. The Chinese expression "spiritual pollution" springs to mind here. If we get used to such excesses, treat them as legitimate interests, are exposed to them routinely, perhaps we will lose something of our civilisation. The libertarian argument is too individualistic - we share a society and that society coheres around certain values; we are affected by what other people do, even if they are not directly physically hurting us. I realise that this illiberal counter-argument could be used to justify lots of nasty things - outlawing homosexuality; clamping down on Chinese dissidents etc. But maybe neither the libertarian argument nor the authoritarian counter-argument should be taken to extremes.
[1]Furthermore, some of the stuff frogbeastegg mentioned does sound worse than your SAW/Hills have eyes stuff. I think some ultra-violent films are flat out banned in the UK. For example, I doubt the censors would pass a film that clearly encouraged sexual violence against women.
TevashSzat
06-23-2007, 03:14
Sorry if it has peen posted already, but it seems Manhunt 2 has recieved the Adult Only rating here in the US meaning that most big retailers may choose not to carry it like Wal-mart or Target which will impact its sales by alot.
News Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/21/AR2007062102300.html?hpid=sec-tech)
Doc, assassin, here's a hot tip! I hate FPS, because I'm not at all interested in midless blood and gore, whether games or movies or otherwise. However, there is this one FPS gem, No One Lives Forever. (1 + 2)
Wanna come in for a game of twister?
Best shooter ever made.
If its extremely violent and could cause someone a fright or scare a young child, slap a lovely big warning somewhere on the case and stop trying to control peoples interests. Its not your job.
So if a Stalker is interested in someone, should he be allowed to stalk that person as well? If a paedophile is interested "only" in pictures of (your) children, is that ok as well? Imean, don't be a nannystate, don't stop that guy's interest in children, he needs it to calm down after some hard day at work...
Sorry if it has peen posted already, but it seems Manhunt 2 has recieved the Adult Only rating here in the US meaning that most big retailers may choose not to carry it like Wal-mart or Target which will impact its sales by alot.
News Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/21/AR2007062102300.html?hpid=sec-tech)
It's even worse, sony nor nintendo will ever release an AO game on their systems. In it's current form Manhunt 2 won't be released on either. AO is what these japanese sex/torture games get. It's strange, the first Manhunt had extremily graphic violence, and in many ways that violence was sexualised. When you did a particulary violent kill the narrator said he just had an orgasm for example. The difficulties weren't called normal and difficult but 'fetish' and 'hardcore', obious enough if you ask me. They really must have pushed it too far.
Meneldil
06-23-2007, 21:33
Well, I think we're on the edge of being sent to the Backroom, but I'll ask anyway to the people who think Manhunt was a great game. What the hell is great about killing people in the most gruesome way ?
I already found GTA to be quite silly, by making gratuitous violence "fun" ("Oh yeah, I just shot this guy before taking his care, how funny !"), but Manhunt seriously reached a new level sickness. Not only the aim of the game is gratuitous violence, but even worse, it's gratuitous painful and butchery-like violence (like "Woot, I just cut this guy's arms, before beating him to pulp with a club, how great is that ? :D")
Just, what's the point ? The setting ? The feeling ? D'oh, there are game with a much more frightening atmosphere. Seriously, go play Eternal Darkness, any Resident Evil, or even old school games like Prisoner of Ice. But Manhunt ? I don't buy it, the only reason why people would play this game is because "lol guyz, saw how i kill'd dis bastard?"
I don't want to sound insulting (or like a far right moralist), but if anyone enjoy this game, he likely has serious psychological issues.
And of course, all Manhunt players won't turn into braindead murderers, but we all know that some people, especially teens with social issues, could think "OMG, this is coolness" and be influenced by the game, just like they thought "OMG, Sephiroth is teh sex", and turned into goths when they played Final Fantasy VII a few years ago.
To sum it up, RockStar devs should be put in jails for being damn sickos willing to make profit out of anything.
Mikeus Caesar
06-24-2007, 12:55
So if a Stalker is interested in someone, should he be allowed to stalk that person as well? If a paedophile is interested "only" in pictures of (your) children, is that ok as well? Imean, don't be a nannystate, don't stop that guy's interest in children, he needs it to calm down after some hard day at work...
While i know your on the side of 'Manhunt is stupid' like i am, i do believe you're taking Marius's points out of context here.
While i know your on the side of 'Manhunt is stupid' like i am, i do believe you're taking Marius's points out of context here.
I just tried to say that controlling person's interests can be quite useful at times. And since children are easily influenced, they need a bit more control and guidance than others. Though in the case of a game like manhunt, I dare say noone really needs it(the game that is).
frogbeastegg
06-24-2007, 18:56
I think some ultra-violent films are flat out banned in the UK. For example, I doubt the censors would pass a film that clearly encouraged sexual violence against women.
[Edit: never mind. The article I read on that film during all the furore was not as accurate on the content of the film as it liked to believe. Controvertial it may be, but not relevant here]
Discussion of the whys and wherefores of age ratings is backroom material, as is the entire debate on whether media affects our behaviour. Such discussion is relevant to this topic, and if people want to pursue it I can move the topic over so it can continue. Alternately a new topic on that area could be started in the backroom. Whichever people prefer.
Marius Dynamite
06-24-2007, 19:37
So if a Stalker is interested in someone, should he be allowed to stalk that person as well? If a paedophile is interested "only" in pictures of (your) children, is that ok as well? Imean, don't be a nannystate, don't stop that guy's interest in children, he needs it to calm down after some hard day at work...
If you can't see the difference between a paedophile and someone who wants to play a videogame, I can't help you much.
I mean seriously, Im saying the UK is a nannystate because they ban egg adverts and your saying I'm condoning Paedophilism and stalkers?
To answer the questions anyway, a stalker should not be allowed to stalk someone. And no, if paedophiles are "only" (And why did you put quotation marks around only? I don't see where that came from.) interested in pictures of children, its not ok - because paedophilia is not ok.
However if someone wants to advertise "Go to work on an Egg" then they should be allowed, because, well, must I explain the difference between that and paedophiles?
And if someone wants to play a videogame, they should be allowed. They wouldn't be the first to enjoy total violence might I add. The beauty is they can enjoy violence without a single person being hurt, and they dont even have to watch a movie (Which is far more realistic). If you find it tasteless, don't play it and take heart in the fact it breaks no law. No one is killed, no one is harmed.
I don't see the USA as a nannystate and do they allow paedophiles and stalkers? No.
EDIT: I want to add that I don't actually enjoy manhunt either, although I have perfectly normal friends who do. I do enjoy my rights, however, and I do love the occasional egg in the morning.
x-dANGEr
06-24-2007, 20:17
Pardon me for not reading all the replies.. But well, I thought I'd shoot in my opinion, well rather, my questions.
Is the game banned because of the "concept", or the "graphics"?
Is it banned because it's graphics are good enough to make people relate them to real life? And if so, wouldn't it be silly to ban it, thus depriving even adults from playing it, thus, clearly affirming that adults don't have the ability to tell the difference between reality and illusion?
Or, is it banned because of the concept? And even if the game had humans made using 32 bit colors, and a low resolution, it would still be banned? Because if yes, I think the decision is perfectly valid.
But then.. Isn't there any game with the same concept, but crappier graphics, that haven't been banned?
I find the whole idea of banning ridiculous. The focus should be on inforcing the Rating.
Yeah. Tell me why I had SWAT 3 being for 15+, and I had 12.
With or without rating, the game will be sold becuase game sellers dont care.
I mean seriously, Im saying the UK is a nannystate because they ban egg adverts and your saying I'm condoning Paedophilism and stalkers?
I saw your statement as a generalisation because we're not talking about egg adverts but about games here. So I thought, if he uses eggs to make a point about video games, why not use pedos to prove him wrong? ~;)
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I just think banning video games on it's own doesn't make anything a nanny state. Your egg example probably does.:sweatdrop:
TevashSzat
06-25-2007, 02:49
Pardon me for not reading all the replies.. But well, I thought I'd shoot in my opinion, well rather, my questions.
Is the game banned because of the "concept", or the "graphics"?
Is it banned because it's graphics are good enough to make people relate them to real life? And if so, wouldn't it be silly to ban it, thus depriving even adults from playing it, thus, clearly affirming that adults don't have the ability to tell the difference between reality and illusion?
Or, is it banned because of the concept? And even if the game had humans made using 32 bit colors, and a low resolution, it would still be banned? Because if yes, I think the decision is perfectly valid.
But then.. Isn't there any game with the same concept, but crappier graphics, that haven't been banned?
Manhunt 2 is being banned for its content. Rockstar is well known for its tendency to create controversial games namely the hot coffee mod for San Andreas. The first Manhunt was pretty controversial, but it wasn't that bad, but in Manhunt 2, you do some pretty sick things which is what pushed the raters over the edge and give it an AO or ban it.
x-dANGEr
06-25-2007, 09:12
Content being graphics or concept? Because if it is related to graphics at the least extinct, I think it is wrong, as I have already explained.
(Graphics being.. well, graphics. Concept being "the sicker you kill that guy the more heroic you are)
Well, I think we're on the edge of being sent to the Backroom, but I'll ask anyway to the people who think Manhunt was a great game. What the hell is great about killing people in the most gruesome way ?
I already found GTA to be quite silly, by making gratuitous violence "fun" ("Oh yeah, I just shot this guy before taking his care, how funny !"), but Manhunt seriously reached a new level sickness. Not only the aim of the game is gratuitous violence, but even worse, it's gratuitous painful and butchery-like violence (like "Woot, I just cut this guy's arms, before beating him to pulp with a club, how great is that ? :D")
Just, what's the point ? The setting ? The feeling ? D'oh, there are game with a much more frightening atmosphere. Seriously, go play Eternal Darkness, any Resident Evil, or even old school games like Prisoner of Ice. But Manhunt ? I don't buy it, the only reason why people would play this game is because "lol guyz, saw how i kill'd dis bastard?"
I don't want to sound insulting (or like a far right moralist), but if anyone enjoy this game, he likely has serious psychological issues.
And of course, all Manhunt players won't turn into braindead murderers, but we all know that some people, especially teens with social issues, could think "OMG, this is coolness" and be influenced by the game, just like they thought "OMG, Sephiroth is teh sex", and turned into goths when they played Final Fantasy VII a few years ago.
To sum it up, RockStar devs should be put in jails for being damn sickos willing to make profit out of anything.
Eternal Darkness was great indeed. About Manhunt, for me it was great despite not because. I like colorful nintendo-games with whacky characters. But Manhunt did manage to cast it's evil spell on me, the whole snuff thing was done very well, and I udually went for the fast kills. Untill they kidnapped my daughter of course, that guy had it comming. Sliced him in front of her, I feel it is important that she knows what her father does for a living. Basicly, it's the same with horrormovies and sleeping with your sisters girlfriends, you know you are doing you aren't supposed to do. hehe.
Mikeus Caesar
06-25-2007, 11:13
Manhunt 2 is being banned for its content. Rockstar is well known for its tendency to create controversial games namely the hot coffee mod for San Andreas. The first Manhunt was pretty controversial, but it wasn't that bad, but in Manhunt 2, you do some pretty sick things which is what pushed the raters over the edge and give it an AO or ban it.
Just one point - Rockstar wasn't directly responsible for the Hot Coffee debacle. It was originally a game feature that got left out the game, but due to lazy coding and whatnot wasn't fully deleted. Some modders looking for something to do found this, and abra-cadabra, you have the media being outraged at terribly pixelated 3D sex-scenes, and now games get rated AO on account of the possibility of third-party content that might be dangerous.
The problem i find with hot coffee is that people are getting outraged at quite frankly ridiculous, if not hilariously bad, sex scenes, thus giving the game an AO rating when the rest of the game features far worse things, such as shooting random people, carjacking, gang wars, sadism, all sorts.
It just further enforces my belief that America is a nation of frigid-prudes.
x-dANGEr
06-25-2007, 11:46
Anyway, banning a game is ridiculous. It is called a game, after all. No one in my country follows the game ratings, and no, we don't get crimes because of games. If a crime happens, mostly, the criminal won't even have the resources to play a game, go figure, being affected by it. In fact, shouldn't the country worry more about raising the youth in such a way, that no jerks with "disturbia" would go around trying the "coolness" that is in games? Wouldn't it be better to try and make for a good supporting family environment for each and every person? Maybe, fight drugs more..
The thing that is taxes, would get the government a lot of money, yeah from the sales of "violent" games, they do sell after all, which is why they exist. Maybe it should use that money to limit many weaknesses of the community, instead of depriving itself totally from it, because of hallucinated causes those video games have been for a few crimes, and so, losing money that might have been valuable, all that to make some faces smile.
Not that I don't agree with the ratings, but I think people should be more worried about basic beliefs they feed their new generations with, that would later feed more blood and death through wars, and general violence, instead of making a mass destruction weapon out of a video game. At all costs, banning is wrong. Limiting is right.
AO-rated would have done it. Good parenting would have done it. Good environments would have done it. Banning.. Wouldn't, or better said, won't.
There is a goal and a result for each action. I believe the goal of this one is to prevent the youth from receiving corrupting disgusting content. The result as follows. The game will reach many more "players", and thus the goal will not be achieved. The developers will lose a lot of money, and thus the government will deprive them and themselves from that. The government doesn't learn from the mistake, and since some people actually liked it, will continue doing it.
One more thing, it hasn't yet been proved that "violent video games = crimes". Smoking is proved to do what it does more than that, and well, it is limited. So, a video game is banned, because "violent video games = crimes", when there have only been a few articles which linked the both, of which, all were assumptions, and nothing was proved?
P.S. I'm not sure who's responsible for this.. But I thought the government would be. If not, replace "the government" with whoever is. ~;)
Adrian II
06-26-2007, 17:23
Clickety (http://www.gamebits.net/other/mqp.html)
Well, as much as I can see where people are coming from with the 'nanny state' argument (I agree that the eggs one is ridiculous, especially in the light of the amount of genuine [slubberdegullion] we get on the old TV, but that can't be used to criticise an individual and completely different choice, in this case the Manhunt issue), however I don't agree with the total freedom proposed by some or the 'just playing a game argument'.
Would anyone support a game encouraging stalking and raping children (and presenting it as a *positive* action)?
There are plenty of violent games, but few display it an A) excessively, excessively graphic detail and B) as an entirely positive, socially healthy and normal action regardless of circumstances.
Now, if the game were released without the AO rating, there would certainly be children owning and playing it (my cousin managed to get hold of GTA a couple of years back, when he was 11/12, but my aunt snapped the disc in two a few days later).
I don't believe that it is right for a society to allow a game actively promoting realistic, plausible, horrific (sexual) violence to be distributed, so I *fully* support this ban.
Anyhow, Lady Frog, I believe this is a backroom issue.
AO-rated would have done it. Good parenting would have done it. Good environments would have done it. Banning.. Wouldn't, or better said, won't. Well said. :yes:
Would anyone support a game encouraging stalking and raping children (and presenting it as a *positive* action)?Howabout a game called "Super Columbine Massacre" where you get to play the school shooters? A truly revolting premise- but such a game does exist and society hasn't collapsed. :shrug:
doc_bean
06-27-2007, 10:04
Second Life apparently allows you to rape and/or murder people (or be the victim, if that's your cup of tea).
Second Life apparently allows you to rape and/or murder people (or be the victim, if that's your cup of tea).
And it allows doing that with kids as well.:2thumbsup:
Mikeus Caesar
06-27-2007, 14:39
Howabout a game called "Super Columbine Massacre" where you get to play the school shooters? A truly revolting premise- but such a game does exist and society hasn't collapsed. :shrug:
I played that game. The next day i raped a watermelon and then killed my best friend, ate the flesh off their fingers and buried them in my cellar.
Now if i can spread the game to society, civilisation will collapse.
Soulforged
06-28-2007, 03:34
Of course banning is not the solution because there's no cause that requires banning. The only hypotetical case in wich banning should be in order is in cases similar to that of "In the Mouth of Madness" (i.e. an stimuli that CAUSES psichosys or drives people mad, in general), but of course this is not the case with games, I've yet to see a game that generates such responses from people, I think that they might actually satisfy a certain quote of violence that we always need, even if it's just to release some stress or anger (some people do that in football matches and some do it on video games, I think that that also might explain why this "violent activities" are more appealing to man). That they do tend to "educate" certain people, between them, the children, doesn't follow that they should be banned, just restricted to people with full comprehension of the consequences of the actions taken in real life and fully aware that they're playing a game and that it's actually a fiction. In fact the rationale to restrict this game to minors is not only that they're under a certain nominal age, but that being under that age presupposes that they lack that comprehension, therefore other individuals that lack such comprehension should also be prohibited to play such games (e.g. the insane).
As for the appeal of this kind of game. Well I've already expressed my opinion on violence, but perhaps I can add something more. Perhaps we like to take everything as a challenge, even getting the nastiest of killings, even if the killing implies another virtual human being ripped apart. Perhaps is just a fun experiment to see what can be done with the human anathomy... Or perhaps many of us are just sadistic in our own way and want to see gruesome killings and grotesque wounds and deformations only for mere pleasure. There's many possible explanations, not just one, and I think they're all plausible. As far as I go, I could handle some scenes on the "Return of the Living Dead", but just so you've an idea when the zombies penetrate the bunker and start hunting the mans, two of them get caught on the slaughter with little time between them, both are ripped apart slowly (and the effects are pretty visceral) and you get to watch the whole scene if you like it, I couldn't handle the second one who gets a nasty ripped neck with a metallic sound as his laringe is open wide and you can hear his scream to the last second. The famous death occurs moments after those (wich is also a slow death with disenvowelment included but specially vicious), but I didn't see it, it was too much for me, I just fast-fowarded that and saw the ending. Perhaps I didn't see any sense on those slow deaths, why leave the camera standing there for so long, OK I get the point, they were painfully killed, move on, but of course it was just gross, and some people like it. I didn't, and I specially cannot play an horror game for more than 30 minutes in a row after wich I have to realese some stress or my hand starts shaking.
The only hypotetical case in wich banning should be in order is in cases similar to that of "In the Mouth of Madness"
Awesome movie. :2thumbsup:
this is absolute :daisy:!!!! ~:angry:
manhunt...pff....witchhunt is more like it!
if they are worried that kids will get their hands on the game then make sure that the age limits are enforced at stores!
why ruin the fun for everyone else that is of legal age and should be alowed to play any game they want as long as nobody is harmed??? :furious3:
if this game gets shelved for this I´m gonna have to contain some serious toughts of kicking the ass of the ones responsible for this nanny state idiocy...
the first game kicked :daisy:....sure the gameplay was overrated...but that game had something that 99% of other games can only dream off...it had atmosphere!
right now if I was one of the game designers I´d make sure that this game leeks out to the internet......and rest assured...it will...even it´s never officially released.
doc_bean
06-28-2007, 10:08
right now if I was one of the game designers I´d make sure that this game leeks out to the internet......and rest assured...it will...even it´s never officially released.
That would result in some interesting court cases, considering the Hot Cofee precedent.
Sir Moody
06-28-2007, 10:44
As a gamer im opposed to bans on games that have merits but frankly people the game has none to defend.
Look back at some of the most extreme FPS's we have seen, sure they were violent but they all have an underlining motive, a reason why the character is so violent and a goal to achieve
Manhunt 2 is a simple case of violence with no motive, all it does is explore how sick and twisted you can be and frankly should be banned so im not upset one bit.
Game developers need to develop games with strong motives and good plot and less mindless violence - the current trend is more towards Violence with no meaning. The sad fact is the more Violent a game the more people seem t want to play it and the less they think about why that is...
As a gamer im opposed to bans on games that have merits but frankly people the game has none to defend.
Look back at some of the most extreme FPS's we have seen, sure they were violent but they all have an underlining motive, a reason why the character is so violent and a goal to achieve
Manhunt 2 is a simple case of violence with no motive, all it does is explore how sick and twisted you can be and frankly should be banned so im not upset one bit.
Game developers need to develop games with strong motives and good plot and less mindless violence - the current trend is more towards Violence with no meaning. The sad fact is the more Violent a game the more people seem t want to play it and the less they think about why that is...
"but frankly people the game has none to defend."
why does the game have to "defend" anything?
the game stands on it´s own merits.......mainly the incredible atmosphere that the first game had...
Sir Moody
06-28-2007, 13:18
the game stands on it´s own merits.......mainly the incredible atmosphere that the first game had...
System Shock, Thief, Doom 3 - these are all example of games with great atmosphere but not one would have sold without some kind of underlying theme - manhunt has no theme it is pure violence for the sake of violence
I will argue to anyone that video games dont cause people to become killers but sick and twisted stuff like this just shouldnt be availble in shops and so banning it from shops i support - I have no problem with it being availble online but over the high street counter just isnt right
System Shock, Thief, Doom 3 - these are all example of games with great atmosphere but not one would have sold without some kind of underlying theme - manhunt has no theme it is pure violence for the sake of violence
I disagree, the premise is a snuff movie so the violence serves the premise. Less sure about Manhunt 2, if it's violence because of the violence, well then it at least deserves it's AO rating. The violence in Manhunt is intense, but it shouldn't shock anyone who has ever seen a horror movie.
Here is a clip with the kills, judge for yourselve.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ywGR2Zf9aDM
Kralizec
06-29-2007, 15:15
Before I read the actual article, I assumed that this was just a lazy method of preventing minors from playing it.
However:
and accordingly that its availability, even if statutorily confined to adults, would be unacceptable to the public."
Bloody hell, who do these people think they are? :no:
nanny state idiocy...
That sums it up perfectly.
I don't need the government telling me which computer game I should/should not play nor does it have to tell me which books I should/should not read, which music I should/should not listen to, which websites I should/should not visit, which movies I should/should not watch, ...
System Shock, Thief, Doom 3 - these are all example of games with great atmosphere but not one would have sold without some kind of underlying theme - manhunt has no theme it is pure violence for the sake of violence
I will argue to anyone that video games dont cause people to become killers but sick and twisted stuff like this just shouldnt be availble in shops and so banning it from shops i support - I have no problem with it being availble online but over the high street counter just isnt right
all games have a theme and an objective....keeping your character alive and getting to the end of it...otherwise it wouldn´t be a game....it would just be a static image and you would just stare at it......btw...Doom 3 has no more underlying theme than manhunt has...."here you are....stuck in a place with a bunch of things that want to kill you...employ violent means to survive"...that definition fits both games...so why should a witchhunt be raised against on of them?
PFS games like Doom 3 and other games give special bonus points for headshot kills, and for killing multiple enemies with the same shot....isn´t this promoting undue violence? dead is dead....why is a headshot given special points for?....what´s the difference to manhunt in this?
if you are saying that if this is sold in stores kids will get their hands on it then force the stores to follow the age limits that come printed in the game box....why should the game be banned instead of forcing the government to do it´s job and ensure that the stores follow the law?
PFS games like Doom 3 and other games give special bonus points for headshot kills, and for killing multiple enemies with the same shot....isn´t this promoting undue violence? dead is dead....why is a headshot given special points for?....what´s the difference to manhunt in this?
In Doom3, you kill monsters. In Manhunt, you kill persons very realistically.
Soulforged
06-30-2007, 00:42
I disagree, the premise is a snuff movie so the violence serves the premise. Less sure about Manhunt 2, if it's violence because of the violence, well then it at least deserves it's AO rating. The violence in Manhunt is intense, but it shouldn't shock anyone who has ever seen a horror movie.
Here is a clip with the kills, judge for yourselve.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ywGR2Zf9aDM
That's pretty vicious. I think that with better graphics and surround sound it could drive you crazy.~;) No seriously, perhaps all that violence goes with the character you're playing, who is, of course, immerse in a larger frame of story wich gives him his background, and therefore all might sum up to a very disturbed individual whose killings reflect that disturbed nature. Then again it might also just mean that it was developed by Rockstar... :rolleyes:
Here is a clip with the kills, judge for yourselve.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ywGR2Zf9aDM
I just clicked that link and got the following message:
500 Internal Server Error
Sorry, something went wrong.
A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation. Please report this incident to customer service.
Also, please include the following information in your error report:
WgMkHozoGxYAZ9yQg9YwtpxMHHnVRNaR_n-8Fc2S_XxHWQrTGjRI8IpuYtB0
ouhSWjkU5Nalv3MGayY7360XTwl-t1r_o1kMFHdL34V7CZeNKOkL7ubIIXfE[...]
Yes, there was actually more weird code at the end.:laugh4:
Erm, sorry, but either those guys are quite funny or they've been hacked, any opinions?(don't want to hijack this thread, but I find that message quite erm, weird):sweatdrop:
In Doom3, you kill monsters. In Manhunt, you kill persons very realistically.
there are human enemies in Doom 3 also...
just not to talk of all other FPS were the enemies are persons too....
doc_bean
06-30-2007, 10:08
Here is a clip with the kills, judge for yourselve.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ywGR2Zf9aDM
Heh, that was just funny. They did an impressive job in making the enemies' deaths appear realistic though. I do wonder how stleathy you can be with a chainsaw.
Frankly, while I might not see the value of Manhunt as a game, banning it entirely is just absurd. I do understand Nintendo and Sony for not wanting to release an AO rated game on their console.
Clip worked now and kind of reinforced my opinion that noone really needs such a game.:thumbsdown:
doc_bean
06-30-2007, 11:39
Clip worked now and kind of reinforced my opinion that noone really needs such a game.:thumbsdown:
No one really needs any kind of game.
No one really needs any kind of game.
I need them for my sanity.:sweatdrop:
Maybe I should've said that noone should have such a game, but now you will all feel like I hate freedom and that's not true either because I believe that potential victims should have the freedom to live and this game seems to promote the opposite. That media can influence people is what I feel when I listen to sad or happy music, it's why I always listen to that crappy but happy eurodance. ~;)
Here we usually allow games for adults only as well and most people don't seem to think their freedom is somehow cut. When I bought the uncut german version of Stalker(this game actually has an interesting story and doesn't focus on cruel killing methods) I had to ID myself in that EBgames store, which is perfectly fine. But there is a reason kids shouldn't play thi and that is because kids are more easily influenced. Lately I've heard more and more stories about people killing others with the reason "I wanted to know how it feels to kill someone", while I don't think that some evil game is the sole reason for that, I also think we shouldn't encourage it and break barrier after barrier until we fall down the cliff(talk about recycling analogies). :sweatdrop:
You can blame bad parenting as much as you want, but you cannot improve that by force, what you can improve by force is brutality in games. In other words, if parents want to play this, they should raise their kids properly and then such measures may not be required anymore.
Apart from that, it's still a sick game.:thumbsdown:
How can slitting someone's throat, watching the blood fly around and hearing him scream for extended periods of time be called entertainment? Medieval 2 is bloody as well, but it doesn't focus on such explicit details.
doc_bean
06-30-2007, 15:07
I need them for my sanity.:sweatdrop:
Maybe I should've said that noone should have such a game, but now you will all feel like I hate freedom and that's not true either because I believe that potential victims should have the freedom to live and this game seems to promote the opposite.
Ow come on, that can be said about thousands of movies and books too.
That media can influence people is what I feel when I listen to sad or happy music, it's why I always listen to that crappy but happy eurodance. ~;)
That kind of music usually makes me want to go out and kill people :laugh4:
Here we usually allow games for adults only as well and most people don't seem to think their freedom is somehow cut.
I'm not saying games shouldn't be withheld from kids, but to claim an adult can't play a certain game is pretty absurd imho.
Apart from that, it's still a sick game.:thumbsdown:
How can slitting someone's throat, watching the blood fly around and hearing him scream for extended periods of time be called entertainment? Medieval 2 is bloody as well, but it doesn't focus on such explicit details.
A Clockwork Orange is a classic movie and it has 'ultra-violence' !
Ow come on, that can be said about thousands of movies and books too.
I never said that I think those movies and books are any better, did I?
That kind of music usually makes me want to go out and kill people :laugh4:
I can understand that.:laugh4:
But I still like it.
I'm not saying games shouldn't be withheld from kids, but to claim an adult can't play a certain game is pretty absurd imho.
Ah well, I wouldn't want to take the game away from Fragony and we don't ban games for adults either, except if they contain material that is against our constitution, such as Nazi symbolism etc.
A Clockwork Orange is a classic movie and it has 'ultra-violence' !
Don't know that movie, so it's hard to say anything about it, but I'm aware that some movies are quite brutal, Kill Bill is quite graphic as well and there are quite a few people who seem to like it just because of that...
Maybe the modern mindset isn't all that different in comparison to that of roman times.:shrug:
I know, noone is hurt in movies and games, but we already started with shows that show home videos of people skiing against trees, little kids falling on their head etc and I have to say that I laugh as well at times.
doc_bean
06-30-2007, 15:32
I know, noone is hurt in movies and games, but we already started with shows that show home videos of people skiing against trees, little kids falling on their head etc and I have to say that I laugh as well at times.
I rarely do with those shows.
In Cuba they showed a montage of such 'funny' videos in a club before the actual party started and in half the cases you wondered whether the guy in the video actually survived, and in one instance, which involved a horney donkey anda guy wanting to take a dump on the pasture, whether he wouldn't have rather died.
Of course banning is not the solution because there's no cause that requires banning. The only hypotetical case in wich banning should be in order is in cases similar to that of "In the Mouth of Madness" (i.e. an stimuli that CAUSES psichosys or drives people mad, in general)
There is a cause that requires banning: the game is dedicated to excessive violence, with violence as essentially the entire point of it.
if they are worried that kids will get their hands on the game then make sure that the age limits are enforced at stores!
Not practically possible.
why ruin the fun for everyone else that is of legal age and should be alowed to play any game they want as long as nobody is harmed???
Why should you be allowed to play any game you want so long as nobody is harmed? Because you say so?
if this game gets shelved for this I´m gonna have to contain some serious toughts of kicking the ass of the ones responsible for this nanny state idiocy...
This isn't an issue of nanny state. The editing of classic cartoons (not) 'glamourising' smoking is nanny state, this is preventing a horrific, violent game from reaching people.
it had atmosphere!
And now the developers are basically just pushing the limits of acceptability, and as a result they've gotten themselves banned. The violence seems to be here just because they can rather than for a reason or for the sake of improving the game.
Game developers need to develop games with strong motives and good plot and less mindless violence - the current trend is more towards Violence with no meaning. The sad fact is the more Violent a game the more people seem t want to play it and the less they think about why that is...
Word.
I don't need the government telling me which computer game I should/should not play nor does it have to tell me which books I should/should not read, which music I should/should not listen to, which websites I should/should not visit, which movies I should/should not watch, ...
Distortion of the issue here. The government/censorship body is preventing the public release of *one* specific game with a perfectly acceptable reason. I suspect an AO rating would be good enough. If the government were against certain genres or certain messages, then it'd be an issue of liberty, but I don't see exactly how the government are overreacting here.
Soulforged
06-30-2007, 19:12
There is a cause that requires banning: the game is dedicated to excessive violence, with violence as essentially the entire point of it.
There's always a cause. But you've to look for one that has legal effects. Of course, in my country it shouldn't be banned, but I don't know the law in the UK, perhaps you may enlighten me on the topic.
Why should you be allowed to play any game you want so long as nobody is harmed? Because you say so?
Doing anything you want to as long as nobody else is harmed is pretty much the standard definition of freedom as far as i´m concerned.
so yeah...if I want it and nobody else is harmed by it I should be able to play it because I say so.
Kralizec
06-30-2007, 20:11
Why should you be allowed to play any game you want so long as nobody is harmed?
Because I should be able to do anything I like if it doesn't affect other people :idea2:
The people don't have to explain why they should have freedom, it's the government that has to explain why they want to restrict it.
my country it shouldn't be banned
Well, SF, you know that our governants dont know videogames exists.
I Am Herenow
07-01-2007, 11:22
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doc_bean
07-01-2007, 11:49
First off, does anyone actually have any Manhunt 2 videos/screenshots? The two screenshots that are on this thread don't really prove much IMO and the video is of the original Manhunt game (and it didn't work for me anyway :tongue:). So that we actually know what we're talking about here, rather than speculating. Certainly, all your arguments about videogame violence are valid, it's just that they're generalisations IMO, as we haven't actually seen any Manhunt 2 videos, nor played a demo level or something similar.
There's a gameplay movie on youtube and a trailer, from what I've seen it isn't too bad, just over the top (you rip out someone's spinal chord, it sounds more gruesome than it is in the game from waht I've seen).
In general, I agree with Sir Moody and others who share his opinion. I feel that senseless violence, or gore for its own sake, are pointless. Not only do I feel that games, movies etc. which seem not to be about entertaining the viewer/player, but rather seeing if they can "endure" the entire movie/game are pointless, but also that they seem to be compensating for something. I feel that movies such as Saw 3 have indeed gone overboard with violence, and are trying to cover a lack of imagination or real plot up with a wall of blood.
Right, but is this a reason for a ban ? Tastes vary.
However, Husar, would you so readily condone banning a game that was identical to, say, Medal of Honor, except where the player played as a German, Italian or Japanese soldier? Assuming the level of violence, graphics, gameplay and so on were identical - just that the player was on the "bad" side - would that game warrant being banned, or its age certificate raised in comparison to MoH?
Any game with nazi imagery is auto-banned in the Germany, I believe, evne if you're fighting Nazis. That's why a lot of games have a 'German' side which doesn't use traditional Nazi imagery.
According to the BBFC website, the last videogame they banned before Manhunt 2 was a game called Carmageddon, because the player's aim in the game was to run pedestrians over. IIRC this ban was issued in the '90s, so the graphics must have been appalling (compared to today's games, anyway), so the game was indeed banned due to its concept, as you put it.
Carmageddon was actually banned ? :laugh4:
It was just a street racing game where 2D sprites where used as pedestrians and you did get bonus points for driving over them. The game was totally over the top but not in any way subvertive imo. It didn't make you want ot run over pedestrians in real life.
If this is the norm than GTA games should be banned too, since you can drive over pedestrians (if you manage to hit them). Saints Row is a similar game that had ragdoll physics (read that, never played it) and GTAIV will have procedural animation and a realisitc physics model, which would make running over people a whjole lot more gruesome than Carmageddon.
Seriously, play Carmageddon (there's bound to be a demo still floating around somewhere) and laugh.
Also, Ethnic Cleansing (again, judging by screenshots on its website) has terrible graphics - but that is not the point. I think that graphics in games are just there to make it look nice: as long as it's obvious that it's people you're killing - or that it's a liver you're tearing out - then that's enough.
This has let to countless games where you battle 'zombies' or 'possessed' humans to get around the killing people bit while still having you kill people. Hypocrisy.
Well, to be honest, I think children are perfectly well aware that when they kill someone in Manhunt 2 or any other game, nobody in real life will drop dead. Nor do children (according to various research carried out on the subject) who have played violent videogames then believe that such a level of violence is acceptable in real life. I think the issue is more that children (and, in the case of Manhunt 2 - according to the BBFC at least - adults) will simply be horrified (or, at least, more horrified than is considered acceptable) by the level of violence and gore portrayed in the game, and so should not be allowed to play it.
:laugh4: Come on, that sounds ridicoulous. The government is protecting us from being horrified ? Is De Sade still available in your local library ? Should they protect us from that too ?
Seriously, I get horrified from the snuff show that is the news these days, no amount of violent games is going to shock me quite like the stuff they're showing these days. Seriously, if they're concerned about 'protecting us' then they should have clear norms about what can be shown on the news (shown, not reported). Kids are even encouraged to watch that.
I Am Herenow
07-01-2007, 11:56
Come on, that sounds ridicoulous. The government is protecting us from being horrified ? Is De Sade still available in your local library ? Should they protect us from that too ?
My point was that I think Manhunt 2 was banned simply because of the amount of violence and gore in it, and not because it would make people torture others in real life.
doc_bean
07-01-2007, 12:01
My point was that I think Manhunt 2 was banned simply because of the amount of violence and gore in it, and not because it would make people torture others in real life.
But why would they ban something for having lots of violence and gore ? And why don't the same rules apply to different media ? What De Sade has written is far beyond what any videogame or movie has dared.
EDIT: if there is no reason for the ban then you might as well ban movies where people don't wear hats enough.
However, Husar, would you so readily condone banning a game that was identical to, say, Medal of Honor, except where the player played as a German, Italian or Japanese soldier? Assuming the level of violence, graphics, gameplay and so on were identical - just that the player was on the "bad" side - would that game warrant being banned, or its age certificate raised in comparison to MoH?
No, we haven't banned Battlefield 1942 here.:laugh4:
It's just that here in Germany displaying swastikas and other Nazi symbology is illegal except if it serves educational purposes. Since games are entertainment, it's illegal to do so in them. Usually that means changing a few textures in the game and replacing the swastikas on them with some other, usually made up, icon.
However, there are even more things done to get a lower rating, for example in the german version of C&C Red Alert all soldiers are cyborgs who "bleed" oil and make a metal noise when a vehicle runs over them. Other games simply made the blood green or so to get accepted, but I think thse days such measures are less common, maybe the overall ratings have been loosened up or they just accept a 16+ or higher rating.
Blodrast
07-01-2007, 12:49
Welcome to the backroom, I am Herenow.
After a few gun-control, religion, and abortion threads in here, you'll see way more sheer violence and bloody encounters than Manhunt 2 can ever hope to display! ~D
Oh, and I've played Carmageddon (although as a rule I don't like racing games). It was teh bomb, and the killings were obviously tongue-in-cheek, and nothing that could be called "realistic".
As for this, stick a "can only sell to phychiatrically-tested in the last 6 months adults with no criminal record and who regularly go to church" rating on it, and it'll be fine.
Soulforged
07-01-2007, 13:53
Well, SF, you know that our governants dont know videogames exists.
RBF (Seria el equivalente de LOL)... pero hablando en serio, a veces se les olvida esa pequeña cosita llamada libertad de expresion y propiedad privada... pasa en las mejores casas, que le vamo' hacer.:laugh4:
Well, to be honest, I think children are perfectly well aware that when they kill someone in Manhunt 2 or any other game, nobody in real life will drop dead. Nor do children (according to various research carried out on the subject) who have played violent videogames then believe that such a level of violence is acceptable in real life. I think the issue is more that children (and, in the case of Manhunt 2 - according to the BBFC at least - adults) will simply be horrified (or, at least, more horrified than is considered acceptable) by the level of violence and gore portrayed in the game, and so should not be allowed to play it.I thought I was perfectly clear with what I meant. I meant that the children might repeat what they see out of their little virtual world, while a sane adult don't. Are you arguing from a paternalist point of view? That's always acceptable, but you'll have a real hard time defending that point of view in the age of liberalism.
It's just that here in Germany displaying swastikas and other Nazi symbology is illegal except if it serves educational purposes. Since games are entertainment, it's illegal to do so in them. Usually that means changing a few textures in the game and replacing the swastikas on them with some other, usually made up, icon.Bu..but...Husar...I learned so much from the Battlefield Games. This is not fair I'll create a lobby for the labelling of certain games as educational games despite what other people may think (FTLOCGAEGDWOPMT), and I would include Manhunt 2 as part of my crusade. I actually reached the point in wich I thought that both factions in the WWII had spawn points in their capitals!!:inquisitive:
I Am Herenow
07-01-2007, 14:34
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Oh, so such a game does exist. To be honest, I'm not very up-to-date on anything games-related at the moment, apart from TW news.
Ah well, it's a multiplayer shooter, but you can play germans there. There are also other games like that Wolfenstein MP game that one can get for free, though I'm not sure about campaigns, there you might be limited to strategy games.
Also, do you personally feel that it's right to force Germans' uniforms in WWII games to be changed - in effect, creating a forced historical inaccuracy? Do you think it better for the player to think "What the hell?" for a while when they first start playing the game and see their character's uniform, rather than feeling slightly uncomfortable throughout the game as their character has a Swaztika armband?
To be honest, I don't care. Whether there is a swastika or a red star or whatever doesn't really make a game good or bad. As long as the rest is accurate enough and the gameplay is nice, I don't really mind. If they were going to say that Tiger tanks cannot be included because the Nazis used them, that would be ridiculous.
Lately I'm a bit tired of all those WW2 games anyway, I don't think I have any WW2 shooter apart from Hidden and Dangerous 2 and I don't even remember how they handled it there.
Heh, that was just funny. They did an impressive job in making the enemies' deaths appear realistic though. I do wonder how stleathy you can be with a chainsaw.
Well I think it's pretty brutal, unlike GTA there is never any comic relief, and with the thick atmosphere, pretty brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Game can really get under your skin.
But no reason to ban it.
I Am Herenow
07-01-2007, 17:16
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Yeah, I suppose there is a distinction between whether a game is generally tasteful or acceptable, and whether it should be banned outright.
Incidentally, I think that Australia banning Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas was just idiocy - because, as Fragony said, GTA is more funny than anything, and it's generally a laugh, escaping police officers for as long as you can.
Wasn't there hidden porno in it? Thought I heard something like that. But indeed, nobody will say that Manhunt was a tastefull game (tasty though~;)), but I don't like it when other people think they are wise enough to tell me what's good for me. If it's really so bad, then AO suits the game just fine. Rockstar could of course make it less violent, what they probably will do, but I think they are currently quite enjoying all the free advertising.
Someone before mentioned Thief as a great atmospheric game that isn't very violent. AWESOME game. But it's actually much more disturbing because the victims are humanised. But you shouldn't kill them of course, you are a thief not a murderer.
Owwwww Thief :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:
I've only just found this and I don't know why on earth this game would get banned, don't you guys have a R18 rating for such games? We in NZ do.
I saw (heh..) Hostel and Saw without realizing their reputation, and frankly I think the disgust factor is overrated, they're not worse than some 80s horror movies I've seen, and certainly not more disturbing than your average holocaust documentary or some books I've read. They aren't great movies but they weren't bad either.
Not that Manhunt2 interests me. Is there even a motive for going around killing people ?
Yeah I've seen much worse and sick movies on TV than those. I never saw Hostel, except for the infamous scene (the eyeball) meh didn't really find it disgusting. It was just an eyeball getting cut of. So what a yellow substance gets out (is that even scientifically correct?). It's fake. As long as they didn't do it with a living thing I couldn't care less, the only thing that it did to me was giving me the great idea of eating some pudding. And Saw? That was one boring movie.
However disgusting? Far from it thanks to Jan Verheyen (guy who had a Cult movie program on tv), I've seen much more dso called disgusting movies. Banning them doesn't help, and frankly I can't seet the problem. Violent games don't make persons more violent. If a person has violent nature, then he'll be violent. The only thing violent games or movies might do is give them inspiration. Without the video game they'd still attack persons as easily, all that would change is perhaps the way the person attacked.
Now I don't think I'd play Manhunt, however banning it is silly. The only thing that could need banning, well not banning but agemarkers,might be movies or games who might be way to scary for children. Tough even that isn't really needed I think, if they see movie once that scares the crap of them, they'll think twice next time. Banning or putting ages on films, only makes them more appealing for the group who isn't supposed to see them. Think about children, they can entertain themselves and laugh with a word like tittie or something for hours. Why? Because they are'nt allowed to say it. If everyone tells them never to say dishwasher, that it's a disgusting word and that it's rude to say, and they'll amuse themselves by saying it on and on. Even tough I must admit that the word dishwasher is somewhat funny.
Wasn't there hidden porno in it?
Yup the come drink coffee with me easter egg.
Cowhead418
07-10-2007, 19:47
Oh, so such a game does exist. To be honest, I'm not very up-to-date on anything games-related at the moment, apart from TW news.There are plenty of such games that exist. I have the game Axis and Allies, which is a RTS game with both Axis and Allied campaigns. In the Axis campaign you are both the Germans and Japanese as you conquer the world. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Sometimes being the 'bad guys' can be more fun anyway. I don't always want to be the hero. The evil side is usually cooler anyway, such as the Empire in Star Wars.
As for the game, the banning does seem to be over-the-top. I saw the youtube video and it didn't seem to be all that bad to me. I've seen much worse in movies anyway. The kills in movies like Saw III and Kill Bill are much more gruesome (I never saw Hostel).
Big King Sanctaphrax
07-10-2007, 19:49
Yup the come drink coffee with me easter egg.
Which was far more hassle to view than downloading some actual porn.
I Am Herenow
07-10-2007, 20:56
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