Aussie put restrictions on Natives.

[Strike For The South]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/21/australia.pornography.ap/index.html

why aernt yall more progressive?:thumbsdown:

[Whacker]

Beat me to posting this. I'd really like some perspective and clarification from our Aussie friends on what exactly is going on here. It would seem that this is stemming from child abuse, but it has deeper roots and there may be other motivating factors at work?

[Grey_Fox]

And Australians aren't natives? :inquisitive:

Besides, it hasn't actually happened yet.

And I fail to see how this


the plan's requirement that at least half of area Aborigines' welfare checks be spent on food and other necessities -- a measure aimed to cut spending on gambling and alcohol

would be a bad thing.

[CountArach]

First I'll start with some Australian articles:
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/21/1957945.htm - This covers most of the Legislation
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/23/1959754.htm
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/21/1958547.htm - This is several negative reactions
http://www.nt.gov.au/dcm/inquirysaac/pdf/bipacsa_final_report.pdf - The Government's report in pdf format (320 Pages)

Alright, essentially Howard has officially done this primarily to stop huge levels of Child Abuse and Rape in the Aboriginal communities, largely caused by 3 things:
1) Lack of good educational facilities
2) Alcohol and Drug Abuse (Very deep rooted since we brought it to them).
3) Everything so far that has been tried to fix 1 and 2 has failed.

So Howard, has decided to do 3 main things about it:
1) Ban alcohol and Pornography sales for 6 months
2) Reserve the right to freeze welfare payments
3) Take control of local townships - They are currently fairly autonomous
4) Medical examinations of all Aborginial Children under the age of 16 for free
5) More police in Aboriginal areas

Alright, now begins the opinions:

The Alcohol and Pornography sales (Not that I understand why Pornography should be banned, but I'll go along with it) will fix the Alcohol Abuse, that is true, but only for 6 months. What needs to be done is to educate these people about what alcohol can do to them. We need to educate them into what Drugs can do to them. Then we shoulod educate them in just how wrong Child abuse is. The Government can afford it.

As it is, banning these people from buying them sets up two problems for me.1) It restricts their freedoms and 2) It sets a horrible double standard. Alcohol and Pornography are still widely available for general consumption for the rest of the population.

Freezing Welfare payments is a horrible idea. It will still be spent on alcohol, only it will be smuggled to them (Or bootlegged) and be sold at high prices. This will just perpetuate the relative poverty these people live in compared to the rest of society. Linking welfare payments to their child's education will help, I can see that, but at the same time it doesn't adress the root problem.

Taking control of Local Townships is a return to a policy of Paternalism, which we dumped years ago. It essentially meant that Western Culture was far superior to theirs and as such we should try to civilize and cultrue them, and treat them as if they were children. What this aims to do is to restrict their freedoms in the name of protecting them. That is an idea that strikes me as so profoundly stupid that I just can't even express it.

Howard has also stated he will remove one of the ways that Aboriginal can prove they have associsation with their land and hence, be given it as theirs. This means that he will be ignoring the past 15 years worth of High Court rulings in regards to Aboriginals Australians. This comes down to Howard's deep rooted conservatism and refusal to admit that White Man commited Genocide on Aboriginal Australians ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_Wars ). He has opennly admitted to this, and refuses to apologise to Aboriginal Australia.

I actually support the Medical Examinations of Aboriginal Children for free, it is good legislation. The same goes for the increased police in Aboriginal areas, though I would prefer if that was everywhere.

Now, why has Howard done this?

Ultimately, I have a feeling that this comes down the fact that this is going to be the closest run election Howard has ever had. (Just to clarify, we have Compulsory Voting for everyone) No Aboriginal Australian is going to vote for Howard for any reason. Ever. Therefore, if he upsets some of their spokespeople and the Aboriginals themselves, he will not lose votes from them. However, Howard will win votes from the rest of Australia, because we have such a deep rooted Xenophobia. Howard can just feed off of this.

There is also a problem that runs a long way back in these rural Aboriginal communities. For all I know, Howard may feel that this is the best, or perhaps only, way of dealing with these problems. Indeed, they might be and everything I have bothered to type here may just be waffle, but I think there is a better way.

[CountArach]

It would seem that this is stemming from child abuse, but it has deeper roots and there may be other motivating factors at work?
It is stemming from Child abuse, but the Child abuse is stemming from Alcohol abuse.


And Australians aren't natives?
Defining an Australian "Native" is very hard (excluding the Aboriginals of course). We have no national identity, most of it is just left over from the British. I personally come from a long line of Australian-born people, however, I have no cultural identity with any part of this country. Though that just may be my cinicism.

Anyway, there is no definition of what it is to be Australian. There used to be, up until the 1970s, but now there isn't.

[naut]

Well at least he's trying something. What's needed is education. Yet I don't know if they'd actually appreciate and take the stuff they learn with them. But it's worth a shot.

Howard not apologising is something that may not be morally correct, but I think in his defence it is based on solid economic grounds. Because if he apologises it will allow the aboriginal people to sue the government, much like what happened in Canada. And also if you've ever interacted with aboriginal people I'd have to say they are some of the most racist people out there. Being called a "white devil" and getting told it's your fault their poor is not my cup of tea, especially since I only arrived here 7 years ago so I have nothing to do with their poverty and loss of land.

Also if alcohol is banned I'm certain they'll resort to petrol sniffing, a harsh but true reality. It really is sad.

[CountArach]

Well at least he's trying something. What's needed is education. Yet I don't know if they'd actually appreciate and take the stuff they learn with them. But it's worth a shot.
It is indeed exactly what is needed.


Howard not apologising is something that may not be morally correct, but I think in his defence it is based on solid economic grounds. Because if he apologises it will allow the aboriginal people to sue the government, much like what happened in Canada.
Don't they deserve it?


And also if you've ever interacted with aboriginal people I'd have to say they are some of the most racist people out there.
Okay, didn't know that.


especially since I only arrived here 7 years ago so I have nothing to do with their poverty and loss of land.
I agree, you shouldn't be victimised. The only people who should be blamed are those with the power to change their situation, but not the will. OUt of interest, where did you come from?


Also if alcohol is banned I'm certain they'll resort to petrol sniffing, a harsh but true reality. It really is sad.
Something else I forgot to mention.

[PanzerJaeger]

I, for one, applaud the civilized Australians for taking an active interest in their natives.

[Strike For The South]

This stinks of parentilism. Let them ruin there lives just dont interfere.

[Grey_Fox]

The problem is they're ruining their lives with taxpayers' money.

[Strike For The South]

The problem is they're ruining their lives with taxpayers' money.

Well stop the aid. Dont tell them what to do there people

[Tuuvi]

It seems like alchohol is a problem with native populations in a lot of countries. However I do not think that banning it from them is the answer. They need to be treated as equal citizens and not discriminated against.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Aside from the discrimination issues, this will never work. Alcohol bans are unenforcable, let alone ones which only apply to one section of the population.

[Don Corleone]

Strike, if it was just the people boozing it up themselves, you might have a point. But apparently there is rampant child abuse (physical and sexual) in these aborignal communities and everyone seems to agree that alcohol abuse plays a big role in that.

I don't see how this can work. If you folks have any sort of equal protection clause like our 14th ammendment, there's only 2 ways to go: banning alcohol to everyone, or banning it for noone. You can't say "Well, you Abos can't hold your liquor so no more for you".

I personally don't see what's wrong with requiring that at least 50% of a welfare check go towards food and utilities. I just don't see how Howard intends to enforce that portion of it.

As for the porn, send all the Abo's porn over here to the States. We could use some new stuff, ours is too formulated. :laugh4: (Just kidding. Something about having a daughter changes your whole way of thinking about porn).

[Papewaio]

Considering an aboriginal community will be by itself in an area larger then Wales except for maybe a local mine and a farm at max, the ban is easily enforceable... the remoteness is part of the problem, lack of police, opportunities etc

When working at the mines there is a ban on selling alcohol to the aborigines and also petrol as a lot of them sniff it and spray paints and toluene and other solvents. Its not a pretty thing to see a kid whose mouth and nose is chromed from the spray paint they sniff.

So removing alcohol is only part of the solution, the root causes need to be addressed too.

Now the biggest issue is that this may seem to hark back to the lost children generation and some of the overly extreme measures taken.

=][=

BTW aborigine is one step further then native, it means that they are the original or earliest inhabitants of a land.

On the other hand Maori's are natives as they wiped out the prior inhabitants.

[Yun Dog]

pfft its such a stunt

as said by the WA premier - hes been in power for 10 yrs and something HAS to be done NOW

in that 10 yrs hes been whittling away at funding to social welfare programs that have actually been helping the Aborigines

yet again Howard is pulling a 'Children Overboard' "WMD" & this time "Aboriginal Child abuse" - to appeal to the Lowest common denominator or "the average Aussie voter' who happens to also be a racist, Xeno, Pseudo-Christian, ignorant, biggot

Gladiator "He understands the Mob"

"He will give them blood and they will love him for it"

He will wave this red herring distractor in front of thier faces as if its been the most critical issue facing this nation and NOW hes riding though on his white horse saving us from ourselves - how did we ever survive without him and his transparently racist agenda


edit: for the "at least hes doing something" argument - as said by BKS hes not really becasue this wont work (been tried before), but it will make a lot of headlines - the problem is he doesnt have enough power - If we were to crown him KING then he could help us poor unwashed

[Papewaio]

Yun I agree that this is more headlines and probably won't work (although the idea of actually providing more police is one valid point)... what do you think needs to be done to
a) Stop the current issues in the short term.
b) In the long term diminish the problems.

Personally I think rather then looking after the Solomons we should be sending more of our police into these communities and engaging them to help themselves. More education targeting health and more access to health resources... remove all the porn, alcohol and child abuse... you still have a place that is so remote that basic health services are extremely difficult to provide to.

I don't think throwing more money at the issue via the aboriginal councils will work as they have shown very little progress with what they have done so far. Abstudy and scholarships by all means.

[Yun Dog]

To be brutally honest - I dont think there is a solution

basically they reject western culture but have taken all the bad bits like chronic alcoholism

we try and help them in the only way we know how - try and make them live like us - a house, a job - but this is all whitemans world - I mean for a start they dont have private ownership - everything anyone owns belongs to everyone else - so there is little motivation to have a house, car, and other white man toys - they just see it all as 'why'. Now weve brought them drugs alcohol and pornography you cant just take it away, because theyll just goto town and steal it (wouldnt you).

Just seems to me like anything we do will be more of what we did to them to start with. We have constantly meddled with these people because we are unable to grasp the fact that these people dont feel the need for progress or to drastically modify/exploit their environment like we do- and to be honest seeing where 'our way' is leading the planet and its people - Im not so sure they have it that wrong. As a consequence of thier misplacement from the modern western material capitalst world - comes hopelessness, depression , and abuse (in all forms).

they are the Indian out of Huxleys Brave New World - we've really only left one way for them to go - but like the tigers and other endangered species no doubt we can clone them and keep them in zoos.

Will they suddenly start living like modern man - some will, the rest will be pushed further to the fringe until the fringe is gone and then so will they be.

[CountArach]

in that 10 yrs hes been whittling away at funding to social welfare programs that have actually been helping the Aborigines
A very valid point. Howard has been exacerbating the problem for many years now.


"the average Aussie voter' who happens to also be a racist, Xeno, Pseudo-Christian, ignorant, biggot
lol, the most accurate comment I have ever read about Australian voters.

As a side note, I live about 10 kilometres from Cronulla (The location of those massive riots on the beach) and it is amazing the level of Bigotry and Xenophobia you will encounter around here. Sometimes I confront some of my friends on it and they cannot give me one credible reason why they think that Lebanese and Asians are worse than them. They hate them anyway (As a side note, I don't. Please no one get offended).


what do you think needs to be done to
a) Stop the current issues in the short term.
b) In the long term diminish the problems.
Well IMO:

a) Hmmm. I think that the police are probably the best way of dealing with this. Oh wait, no it isn't! They are underfunded!

b) Education. Just hit them hard with the education. Education will make it better.


Personally I think rather then looking after the Solomons we should be sending more of our police into these communities and engaging them to help themselves. More education targeting health and more access to health resources... remove all the porn, alcohol and child abuse... you still have a place that is so remote that basic health services are extremely difficult to provide to.
That is an infringement of these people's rights though. It creates the double standard of "We are so much better, we are allowed to keep our porn and booze, you on the other hand are uncivilised savages who cannot handle them. Hence we are allowed to take them from you."


I don't think throwing more money at the issue via the aboriginal councils will work as they have shown very little progress with what they have done so far. Abstudy and scholarships by all means.
I'm not sure, but I would bet that they are underfunded as well.


basically they reject western culture but have taken all the bad bits like chronic alcoholism
Rejecting Western Culture isn't a bad thing. There is nothing/noone who should be able to say that our culture is so much better than theirs. Besides, it was us who gave them the alcohol in the first place.


they are the Indian out of Huxleys Brave New World - we've really only left one way for them to go - but like the tigers and other endangered species no doubt we can clone them and keep them in zoos.
Hmmm, let me think. John the Savage was the most pure and the best person in the book. He was backwards technologically, but he was better at heart.


Will they suddenly start living like modern man - some will, the rest will be pushed further to the fringe until the fringe is gone and then so will they be.
I really hope not. Just another reason I will vote Greens when I am old enough (1...more...year...). They at least have the respect for these people's culture to admit that they may in fact be better than us.

[Yun Dog]

AHmmm, let me think. John the Savage was the most pure and the best person in the book. He was backwards technologically, but he was better at heart.


I really hope not. Just another reason I will vote Greens when I am old enough (1...more...year...). They at least have the respect for these people's culture to admit that they may in fact be better than us.


Yes thats rights, but what happens to him in then end, I seem to remember he hangs himself because he cant cope with the ugly brave new world he finds

Yes certainly its good to respect other cultures - the unfortunate thing in this case and many others is the swamping of the planets cultures with the 'greed is good' materialistic cosumer culture

[CountArach]

Yes thats rights, but what happens to him in then end, I seem to remember he hangs himself because he cant cope with the ugly brave new world he finds
Yeah, pretty much.


Yes certainly its good to respect other cultures - the unfortunate thing in this case and many others is the swamping of the planets cultures with the 'greed is good' materialistic cosumer culture
You have no argument from me here.

[Warluster]

I was wondering when this was too pop up.

I agree with Count Arach, the average Aussie these days are racist ( I ain't though)

These days riots are rumored all over Aus.

I think it was last year, down at Burliegh Heads, Gold Coast, a massive riot was about to happen, telling people where and when by text message. (Police barely stopped)

And to be perfectly honest (though I on no account agree its right), I don't think most Australian is gonna stop, as racism is something which is deeply rooted in our history since the 1800's.

And with the Stolen generation thing, and the laws we used to have 60 years ago, its no suprise Australia is so rascist today.

[Ignoramus]

The reason there's racism is that most immigrants don't assimilate. If you want to live in Australia would should become Australian. Unfortunately, we've lost what it means to be Australian over the last 30 years and that breeds racism between immigrants and locals.

[Banquo's Ghost]

The reason there's racism is that most immigrants don't assimilate. If you want to live in Australia would should become Australian. Unfortunately, we've lost what it means to be Australian over the last 30 years and that breeds racism between immigrants and locals.

:inquisitive:

So in the context of the article, you believe all Australians should adopt aboriginal culture and this would eliminate racism?

Sounds like a plan to me. :bounce:

[Papewaio]

The reason there's racism is that most immigrants don't assimilate. If you want to live in Australia would should become Australian. Unfortunately, we've lost what it means to be Australian over the last 30 years and that breeds racism between immigrants and locals.

30 years ago was 1977.

So the golden non-racist years were what between the end of the White Australia policy and 1977... considering that the White Australia policy was finally finished in 1974 that leaves a grand total of oh 3 years.


describes Australia's approach to immigration, from federation until the latter part of the 20th century, which favoured applicants from certain countries.

The abolition of the policy took place over a period of 25 years.

Following the election of a coalition of the Liberal and Country parties in 1949, Immigration Minister Harold Holt allowed 800 non-European refugees to remain in Australia and Japanese war brides to enter Australia.

Over subsequent years, Australian governments gradually dismantled the policy, with the final vestiges being removed in 1973 by the new Labor government.

Lets be generous and make it when the Aboriginals were taken off the Parks and Wildlife census and added to the Human census since that must have happened way before the end of the White Australia Policy... so when did they get counted as humans... well it went to referendum and happily 90% of the people said they should be considered in the census. This sterling proposition was passed in 1967.

So that gives the golden years of non-racist Australia a grand total of ten years. I think I'll channel Elliot Goblet and say 'wow, I am overwhelmed with awe.'

[CountArach]

The reason there's racism is that most immigrants don't assimilate. If you want to live in Australia would should become Australian. Unfortunately, we've lost what it means to be Australian over the last 30 years and that breeds racism between immigrants and locals.
What is Australian? There is no one true meaning for what that is.