View Full Version : So Whats Next
KenchiGambatte
07-08-2002, 04:32
Ok so now were getting Medieval Total War.and An epic game it will be with no question but.......
What next?
where will they look to expand on this absolutely stunning series of games?
Well my vote goes to Fantasy Total War
Orcs, Goblins, Dragons Dwarves Wow now that would be cool.Maybee throw in the odd Majic user here and there.
I quite fancy a 10000 strong skeleton army my self.with a spell casting Lich lord general.
What Do You Guys Think?
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vyanvotts
07-08-2002, 04:45
fantasy total war would completely ruin everything that CA have tried to build up....fantasy would put off many people and take out what the game is actually good for. There are many people complaining about the historical accuracy of things like the colours of the uniforms the men wear, just imagine wut they will think if they see 1000s of goblins running around. it would completely put off many people from total war, including me.
i some how think not, why ruin somthing that the game is so very good for.
i prefer men with swords figting other men with swords. not goblins fighting other goblins. at least you can relate to the men.
LittleGrizzly
07-08-2002, 06:21
gambatte do u play warhammer by any chance
now ur idea was basically warhammer which i reckon would be a great idea but many ppl love history so they would be unhappy
Emp. Conralius
07-08-2002, 06:54
Punic: Total war, ya know, ancient times!
Stephen Hummell
07-08-2002, 08:34
F*** Fantasy:Total War!!!!
I too would love to see a fantasy total war.One of my main reasons for liking fantsy setting is that you dont find yourself pulling faults with game play due to historical innacuracies.You are able to create an imaginary realism (if ya get me drift).
I dream of the day when a truly epic well thought out mind blowing warhammer type gets made,
Dark Phoenix
07-08-2002, 12:48
Well I think a fanatasy game would be a possibility, the Exec. Producer said he wouldnt mind doing a fantasy game ages a go, I dont think it would alienate that many fans, and would bring in a heap of new fans.
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"DP is correct" - Shiro
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We may have years, we may have hours,
but sooner or later, we push up flowers
Quote Originally posted by Saki:
I too would love to see a fantasy total war.One of my main reasons for liking fantsy setting is that you dont find yourself pulling faults with game play due to historical innacuracies.You are able to create an imaginary realism (if ya get me drift).
I dream of the day when a truly epic well thought out mind blowing warhammer type gets made,[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's just personal style, but many liked STW because of its historical background. On the other hand, fantasy TW will suffer one fatal flaw: THERE IS NO SUCH A THING CALLED IMAGINARY REALISM.
To discuss the tactic of Spear vs Cavalry seems very justified; while to say "Dragons have longer reload-time than cobras", or "I won the day by flanking wolves with two rabit divisions" just sound so silly.
For the same reason, civilization I and II were huge success, but when some lame company decide to steal the idea and produce something called Civilization: test of time, it becames a really really bad joke.
Dark Phoenix
07-08-2002, 13:15
What about Civ 3 having dinosaurs in it then, or SMAC hich was pretty popular I think.
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"DP is correct" - Shiro
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We may have years, we may have hours,
but sooner or later, we push up flowers
I recon the next step would be to simulate something more complex in regards to gameplay, strategy and units. Napoleonic Wars from 1803 (ie WaterLoo) comes to mind
Quote Originally posted by KenchiGambatte:
Ok so now were getting Medieval Total War.and An epic game it will be with no question but.......
What next?
where will they look to expand on this absolutely stunning series of games?
Well my vote goes to Fantasy Total War
Orcs, Goblins, Dragons Dwarves Wow now that would be cool.Maybee throw in the odd Majic user here and there.
I quite fancy a 10000 strong skeleton army my self.with a spell casting Lich lord general.
What Do You Guys Think?
[/QUOTE]
Fantasy idea would be nice but other game devs will no doubt go that route. CA should stick to basing games on history.
Lets face it CA arn't going to have the monoply on this sort of game for too much longer, especially once first months sales figures for MTW are known http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.
Warrior Kings tried and failed(due to bugs) to do fantasy ideas, but no doubt better games are in development right now.
theforce
07-08-2002, 15:46
Fantasy would be awesome if they keep the playing style. No things spiting fire and shit like that!!!
Greek state wars!!!
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Sir Kuma of The Org
07-08-2002, 21:12
Right now, huge franchises like star wars for example, have a tendency of buying licenses to use engines that have proven themselves to be the best in a certain category of games (Battleground=AoE, Jedi Outcast=quake, i think). Sometimes if the creators have shown themselves as innovators etc...They squarely give them the whole contract (Like The creators of the Baldur's gate series working on the upcoming Jedi RPG).
So if CA proves themselves *worthy*, i would not be surprised if they land a big contract for a fantasy game from a well known franchise, based on the work done and the engine in the Total war series.
This would not prevent them to work on a follow-up to MTW. A project of that type would probably be not included in the Total war series *officially*
This is just speculation of course....
Mithrandir
07-08-2002, 21:32
it'd sell great with the release of the second lord of the rings movie *curses the movie*...*curses the movie some more*
anyway, I'm working on a bis post about the options for the races,the units and strenghts and weaknesses of each race etc.
it'll probably be done by th time MTW is realeased http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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untouchable, unbreakable,elven spirit,Elven soul
Emp. Conralius
07-08-2002, 22:48
No fantasy, they'll stick to the facts. Jedi Outcast kicks ass!
Stephen Hummell
07-08-2002, 23:14
F*** Fantasy:Total War, Lets stick to historical total war, Not even that starwars BS.
A side product of my addiction to STW is my addiction to Japanese Sengoku Jidai history.
With MTW coming out, I find myself reading more about Saladin, Richard the Lionheart, Henry V ...
Besides being fun, total war can also be so educational.
In US, we have too many handsome/pretty people who are total idiots both in history and geography. For instance, last Saturday, I met a manager from a prestige shoe store who had no idea which state was closer to NY, Mass or CA.
So back to the point, please, please, stick with historical TW, give us some additonal knowledge along the process. That way, God can indeed bless the ILITERATE north America.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
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[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 07-08-2002).]
Darkmoor_Dragon
07-08-2002, 23:44
hmm secret projects - yum yum
To Gothmog,
Ok, I admit my statement "You are able to create an imaginary realism (if ya get me drift)." is cotradictory,so i will try to elaborate on the "if ya get me drift"part.
If you take some fantasy type units and set them up like what we are use to in total war,
ie regiments of goblins ,orcs and then apply real world physics as to what happens in battle, or as close to reality as the game engine allows.This is what i meant by my absurd suggestion of imginary realism.
Now that I ve cofused my self im off to make a nice cup of tea and muse over my meanderings http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Emp. Conralius
07-09-2002, 02:58
I think Saki is trying to say that he wants a Total War with fantasy units, but they have weapons and battles like the ones in Lord of the Rings (movie). Though I'm not all for it, I now understand what he's saying. Goblins, elves, dwarves...all that but with no special powers. Just weapons. Like the elves specialize in bows, dwarves have axes...that kind of thing.
KenchiGambatte
07-09-2002, 03:55
I dream of the day when a truly epic well thought out mind blowing warhammer type gets made,
Now this is what I was trying to say
The team have done such a magnificent job in the development of these games that They could make the game that all fantasy fanatics have only dreamed about for years.
I accept the piont that the Total War series is based historically and so to intoduce a game of this genre to it would ruin it for some.
and so in conclusion I agree with Sir Kuma
Right now, huge franchises like star wars for example, have a tendency of buying licenses to use engines that have proven themselves to be the best in a certain category of games (Battleground=AoE, Jedi Outcast=quake, i think). Sometimes if the creators have shown themselves as innovators etc...They squarely give them the whole contract (Like The creators of the Baldur's gate series working on the upcoming Jedi RPG).
So if CA proves themselves *worthy*, i would not be surprised if they land a big contract for a fantasy game from a well known franchise, based on the work done and the engine in the Total war series.
This would not prevent them to work on a follow-up to MTW. A project of that type would probably be not included in the Total war series *officially*
This is just speculation of course....
Bohemond
07-10-2002, 02:21
OK guys, I really don't want to be rude but:
I cannot believe that any true TW fan would want this Fantasy TW thing. Come on, there are hundreds of games around where you can play with ***** Elves and Princesses. But there are only a handful of historically sound games like this one.
To sell the license and have such a game developed by another company is of course a sensible idea, IMO the only sensible way.
I also don't understand some peoples request for a World War I game. Warfare during this years has absolutely no appeal to me (Except Flight Sim of course). There's simply no strategy. Don't you realize that soldiers were not even standing upright most of the time. They were crouching and trying not to be hit. The common and most efficient tactic was artillery shelling, day in, day out, for 4 bloody years. So if there was a game about World War I, it should be a fantastic blend of "Beach Head" and "Artillery Duel".
Btw, are there people who can remember "Artillery Duel", at all?
And to be a bit constructive, in my opinion the next game should simply continue from 15th century onward to early 19th century. From the great discoveries to the Napoleonic era. Hard to find a good name though. Guns would play an ever increasing part, but until the invention of machine gun battles were still "old school" and fun.
Btw. some people seem to have problems with firearms ruining the game. But even in WWII there were occasional cavalry charges.
Emp. Conralius
07-10-2002, 05:32
You shouldn't be so hard o the newbies Bohemond. Well, maybe you do...I don't want a fantasy TW either. Like Bohemond said there are plenty of fantasy based games. But then again, not of them are quite like anything in the TW series.
Emp. Conralius
07-10-2002, 05:34
Thats also a good point by Bohemond. If you have a TW game based arounfd any form of modern combat, you'de be saying goodbye to the epic battles. Just a bunch of people shooting at each other.
Emp. Conralius
07-10-2002, 05:44
But we all should be more open to these new ideas. Just let them say their piece.
Dark Phoenix
07-10-2002, 16:31
Dont tell me that I am not a TW fan coz I want a fantasy version. It is not much of a stretch from Medievil period to high fanatasy.
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"DP is correct" - Shiro
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We may have years, we may have hours,
but sooner or later, we push up flowers
Bohemond
07-10-2002, 21:55
That is the same like saying it is not much of a stretch from space flight to science fiction.
Still, I accept your opinion. Hopefully we all get what we want. My worry is only that Fantasy TW from CA would mean canning another, historically correct game. Maybe having a poll after the release would be interesting.
Stephen Hummell
07-10-2002, 21:59
A poll would do. And for those who want fantasy, lets make them an offer they can't refuse. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by Stephen Hummell (edited 07-10-2002).]
Emp. Conralius
07-10-2002, 22:05
Yea, but you have to admit, fantasy is very marketable. Just from a buisness standpoint (which I don't support), it would be smart to come out with a fantsay based title. Look at the sucesses of Warcraft. The recent release of Wacraft III was dubbed the most anticipated RTS ever! Though I'de like CA to stick to the facts, fantasy has tapped a rich vein in the gaming world.
Bohemond
07-11-2002, 00:45
Very true Emp. but that is the reason dedicated gamers are more and more put off by this industry and have to turn to few, exceptional games like Shogun Total War, which was unfavourable from the marketing viewpoint, because it it deals with an era that is unknown to most people and worse, requires you to think and to practise.
Erado San
07-11-2002, 01:13
A couple of observations:
1 - The next title has already been in the making for at least a year. Simply because if they hadn't started it already it would take at least three years to make it, and that would mean them going out of business. Nothing we say or do can influence the subject anymore.
2 - There is one big understanding about Fantasy. True, there have been plenty of Fantasy games. But none have ever come close to reproducing Warhammer Fantasy tabletop battles. They are played all over the world by very serious people (well, most of them). Warhammer was what inspired Warhammer Dark Omen, which is in many ways Total Wars predecessor. If Total Wars next instalment were to be a Fantasy Total War, and done in a serious manner focusing on strategy and tactics like we have come to love, then it would make for a serious game, with fantasy influences. Where a magician or a dragon or a high elf or a halfling for all I care would have a significant tactical use. IN other words, it would still force everybody to take their unit types seriously, and would not become a kiddy game. Warcraft may have gone that path, but Total War would take it into another dimension, and with proper background and development it could well be as inspiring as a historical version.
Personally I would prefer a more serious setting like Raymund Feists Midkemia and Kelewan over the Warhammer Fantasy world. The array of armies and unit types would be huge, and the political intrigue would be astonishing, making for a very intriguing strategic and tactical game.
But as I said, nothing we say now will influence the subject of the next title, and perhaps not even the one after that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I beg to disagree but ... although I am a fan of historical-based games such as the TW series I would also like a Fantasy game developed using the TW engine.
Regarding the idea of "historical accuracy" and "realism": Sorry for bursting a LOT of bubbles around ... BUT the TW series is NOT 100% historical accuracy.
Shogun and Medieval are fantasy games which get a "historical and realistic flavour" because they are inspired on Historical facts. BUT STW and MTW are not exactly Grognard's games.
So what is the big deal with having a Fantasy:Total War game?
Sure some people hate the idea of playing games with super units like gigants and ogres because that is not "realistic".
Well, the Kensai unit was in some ways also a superunit. So much for "historical accuracy"
Many years ago I played Warhammer http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gifark Omen and as somebody just mentioned, this game was very similar to the TW series. In my opinion an updated version using the TW engine would be neat.
A Fantasy TW would be a nice addition to the serie. Of course I also hope that the "historical flavour" will also be carried on with new titles like Centurion:TW or Pharaoh:TW
Fast Death
07-11-2002, 03:00
As long as there is a H9 Troll that digs underneath the enemy.... pops-up in the middle.... and lights his farts to burn 'em.... of course if I have my anti-burn card I could play it then or maybe use my Ice Fairy to squeeze up his arse and extinguish his colon? Maybe a could just roll a hard 8 twice????
Thane Talain MacDonald
07-11-2002, 03:23
Personally I would prefer a more serious setting like Raymund Feists Midkemia and Kelewan over the Warhammer Fantasy world. The array of armies and unit types would be huge, and the political intrigue would be astonishing, making for a very intriguing strategic and tactical game.
And here I was thinking I was the only person on earth who read his books. Listen to this man, because thats the best idea I've heard for quite some time.
i belive that they need to make it kinda like warcraft where u can build ur armies on the battle field.or at least make the battles have more units like 10-20k each this way the battles r long rulentless and and plain grreat to play and watch
Mithrandir
07-11-2002, 03:41
any interest in an extensive post on the posibilities for a FTW (Fantasy Total War) ?
I'd like to do it if some people are actually interested in it ,if not it saves me lot of time by posting a no here.If so please post yes.(go ahead Jag http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif.
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untouchable, unbreakable,elven spirit,Elven soul
Thane Talain MacDonald
07-11-2002, 03:48
Yes, please do so.
Erado San
07-11-2002, 03:49
In case you don't know the books...
Midkemian factions:
Humans (several nations with political ramifications), Elves, dwarves. The humans would have a very small number of magicians with a small set of magical abilities.
Tsuranni factions:
The 5 clans with all their families and their political intrigue that makes Rome turn pale, the order of magicians (of which only a very limited number would appear anyway), the Cho-Ja (insect like beasts with great social sense and fierce warriors)
Hardly any typical fantasy creatures like dragons and the like. Just some magic might be around, that is it.
The plus would be that there is a vast and well described world (2 worlds in fact) with a great mythological background, religions and social structure, deep political structure and many many options for warfare.
Anybody that has read the books can at least see the point.
Mind you, I'll take whatever they will throw at us, although Napoleon and American Civil War would be a disappointment to me. Too many guns, and we already had that...
Stephen Hummell
07-11-2002, 04:04
I have nothing left to say but if fantasy is next you won't hear of me anymore cause I'll stuff my head in the history books at the Library for fun. (whch to me is very fun)
NO NO NO NO NO NO
Nothing could be worse than making the game more like warcraft.
There are still plenty of fun eras of history to explore (Rome/Greece come to mind), and a fantasy version could be ok too (but only if they kept it "low fantasy"), but IMHO the strategic layer and the tactical layer must say seperate, or it's gonna end up just another generic RTS like warcraft or C&C.
Mithrandir
07-11-2002, 04:10
though I have loved fantasy things from the day I could see, what's the difference between High and low fantasy?
There's no doubt the level of strategy could be kept, and the posibilities are endless, as well as the public interested in it...
eras like that of the Roman empire leave little room for innovative units, most would just become an equivelant of those found in MTW, and even STW...
I think I'll do an extensive post, mostly based on creatures ,ofcourse, from Lord Of The Rings, THE BOOK ,*spits on LOTR movie* *spits some more on the LOTR movie*, and some other fantasy games (played quite a lot http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif).
but it'll take me a few days to complete...
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untouchable, unbreakable,elven spirit,Elven soul
Thane Talain MacDonald
07-11-2002, 04:15
Its simple. With the Feist idea, you've got Rome and Japan in Tsuranuanni, and in Midkemia you have middle eastern equivalents in Kesh, Viking-equivalent in the Moredhel, and europe equivalent in the Kingdom, which is split into two distinct kingdoms and dozens of Cities/Provinces.
By the way, 'low' fantasy is fairly realistic fantasy, where much of the things from the real world are merely translated into a fantastic situation, while 'high' fantasy doesn't have that. The Forgotten Realms and Fiest are low fantasy (you may argue about FR, but its much closer to low fantasy than high!) while Tolkien is high fantasy.
Thane Talain MacDonald
07-11-2002, 04:16
Also, a nation to the east of Tsuranuanni even pulls duty as Ireland/Scotland, and they've got mongol equivalents to the south!
Hmm maybe I've been operating under a misconception, but I thought that low fantasy was more realistic fantasy with magic being pretty rare, while high fantasy was like armies of fireball shooting elf wizards riding on flying unicorns (magic being common place).
Thane Talain MacDonald
07-11-2002, 04:25
You can have lots of magic inn low fantasy as long as it is done realistically, but I suppose there might just be multiple definitions. However, the Fiest stuff is low fantasy under both definitions, so it doesn't really matter.
Raymond E. Feist...quite good
but even better is George R.R. Martins "A song of ice and fire" series.It's relatively realistic has strong and surprising characters and there is not this typical good versus bad.
ah and btw I think it would be good that if there comes a fantasy total war then only heros could do a bit magic.
And please no 100 Unicorn against 20 fireball throwing wizzards who are supported by 40 ghosts or something like this
This is just too...strange
Erado San
07-11-2002, 05:17
I think pretty much everybody agrees that whatever they make it it should be a serious strategy game with a decent level of realism. That would mean another historic era or low fantasy, or something we haven't come up with.
While a Warcraft: Total War or Warhammer: Total War would appeal to a huge audience it would lose it's sense of realism.
In Riftwar: Total War indeed, magic would be limited to very few magicians. On the Midkemia side there were only three in the books I believe.. Pug, Kulgan and Owyn. While on the Tsuranni side there were a few more, especially needed to keep the rifts open. They rarely interfered with the actual war.
Emp. Conralius
07-11-2002, 05:44
Maybe a poll may settle this, but I doubt it...
Emp. Conralius
07-11-2002, 05:53
What new TW is in the works Erado? Though a marketable product, Fantasy: Total War or whatever would totally destroy everything what TW really stands for. Anyways would you imagine the blandness of Orc diplomacy Pixy Pacts or Elven Allinaces?! To be honest with you I wouldn't buy such a "marketable" title. A TW based on fantasy would be a sell out!
the bottom line is that its not going to happen this series of game is based on historical events and times it is more fun to play a nonfictional game. and to those people who want dragons and magic how exactly do u control a unit of 60 dragons and magicians.
oh and to reply to the original question of (what next) well lets see weve had asians twice now we doing europe id say the next thing would have to be prob mmmm.... indians prob either from n.america or from central america. thats my guess or maybe they working thier way up the historcal ladderthe next one might be the evolutionary war http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Emp. Conralius
07-11-2002, 06:47
I seriously doubt indians Carnage. The epic battles terminology comes from really hand-to-hand combat. Sure STW and MTW has guns to an extent, but I don't think CA will make a TW game based on the average infanrty carrying gun.
Stephen Hummell
07-11-2002, 07:51
And when the Indians fought they fought with no organization, like gallic tribes of ancient Europe. The Gallic tribes would shout insults and bang their swords on their sheilds until the enemy were weary of them. Then they would carge the enemy. As the enemy routed with fear the celts or gauls would chase the enemy down and hack them to death. This is why they were deafeted Roman discipline. Sorry, got off track. Indians woldn't work.
Emp. Conralius
07-11-2002, 09:45
umbrings up a good point, most of the time the Indians used gurrila tactics.
Quote Originally posted by Emp. Conralius:
What new TW is in the works Erado? Though a marketable product, Fantasy: Total War or whatever would totally destroy everything what TW really stands for. Anyways would you imagine the blandness of Orc diplomacy Pixy Pacts or Elven Allinaces?! To be honest with you I wouldn't buy such a "marketable" title. A TW based on fantasy would be a sell out![/QUOTE]
I don't see why Fantasy: Total War would destroy everything that TW really stands for!! Tell me, what does TW really stand for? In my opinion is stands for innovative battles rendered on lush landscapes which involve many strategic elements of old warfare.
WHy therefore, according to you and many others, can a Fantasy: Total War not continue in this trend? I believe what would ruin the "TW" trend would be the introduction of a gun-heavy historical period, much in the way that Erado stated... You then lose a lot of the strategic elements afforded to us by the terrain.
Personally i think a FTW might be the best way forward for a team like CA, or anyone else for that matter. Having the Romans/Greeks next for instance would be to many just more of the same that Medieval TW promises. A FTW will allow the creators a greater degree of freedom for developing new strategic options and possibilities without having the realism constraints that a TW based on an historical period comes with.
I think to evolve the TW series something new has to be introduced on top of the already established tactics like flanking, being positioned higher up on the terrain and formations. A FTW could give them that freedom to create innovative strategic elements to complememnt the tried and tested formula of the TW titles to date.
Of course, this is just my opinion.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I would have to concur with the previous associates that have stated against fantasy. I enjoy fantasy and even write a bit. I own quite a few fantasy games (NWN heros of might and magic,etc). But my first love is truly history and frankly i had never even heard of the Total War series until I was perusing the websites. I saw a nifty game screenshot of MTW. Hooked...instantly. I picked up the demo...drooled incessantly...cant wait for full version... Sorry. Lost track for a sec. I think that an Antiquity Total War would be great. Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Gauls etc.
The use of formations,forts and siege craft are all there and best of all no little elves frolicking around.
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Through eternal aeons lie time will come when death may die
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 23:15
Doctor,
You totally missed my point. We all know that there are plenty of nice pretty fantasy games all over the market. Fantasy: Total War would ruin everything what TW tood for because of one word, FACT. Like said before, could you imagine pixy pacts, elven alliances, or orc court?! What would the strategic map be like? Sure, all this dungeons and dragons nonsense would be lucrative for CA, but they'de probably lose the true, hardcore TW fans who appreciated CA for going to a genre that was relativly unknown (besides elementary knowledge of samurais and ninjas). And I'll say this again, Fantasy: Total War or anything of that nature is a sell out!!
Wavesword
07-12-2002, 23:35
With MTW seems to have set up its tent in a particular market corner. If MTW sells at least as well as Shogun (its system specs may hinder this) then they're very likely to continue in this mould. Fantasy total war is something fans can probably do very well in mod-land. Magic will be the real sticking point, because everyone has a different idea of it, and it probably wouldn't be moddable.
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