Burning Muhammed in Effigy?!?!?! [Archive]

Spino

06-25-2007, 22:16

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/06/midsummer-burning-of-mohammed.html
Could one of our local Danish scholars confirm this? If this is true, al I can say if "Holy Crap!!!" Good luck over there and be safe. I just have a hard time believing this. If its true, what do you think the impact of this will be?

I'm surprised it took this long for something like this to happen. I am also astounded to see this happening in a nation like Denmark. I honestly expected to see this happening in more devout Catholic or Orthodox Christian nation.

This will obviously spark violent protests from Muslims and personal and/or organized terrorist attacks are sure to follow. You can actually see the camel's back begin to strain under the pressure before the last bit of straw is applied. It's just a matter of time before Al Qaeda or a similar group manages to pull off another spectacular 9/11 like event and then the crap is really going to hit the fan.

Bijo

06-25-2007, 22:17

If true, it could cause remarkable upheaval indeed. I have not noticed any more confirmations.

Tristuskhan

06-25-2007, 22:22

I heard there was an interesting "muslim" democratic party created in Denmark recently... maybe that fascist scum can't stand such intelligence and want to drive their immigrants in the hands of extremists again...

Mikeus Caesar

06-25-2007, 22:57

You've read the story now watch the video!

Moderator alert: If you surf here from work, clicking the 'spoiled' link may get you in trouble with your net-nanny. The link also presents images possibly offensive to some members.-Kukri
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ivqcOUWjsWw

I was expecting a slightly more spectacular manueqin.

Hosakawa Tito

06-25-2007, 23:13

No good will come of this. The ensuing extremist's one-upmanship from both sides will also harm innocents as well.

Mikeus Caesar

06-25-2007, 23:16

No good will come of this. The ensuing extremist's one-upmanship from both sides will also harm innocents as well.

In the extremists eyes, they are either 'infidels' (to the muslim extremists) or 'barbarian savages' (christian extremists).

Hosakawa Tito

06-25-2007, 23:29

Bijo

06-25-2007, 23:43

Like the issues involved, many of the future participants are neither black nor white. I've been involved in quelling several riots, emotions will take over and common sense will be hard to come by. This is going to get ugly... While understandable and true, I have found general "common sense" among people to be nothing but irrationality nowadays. I mean... what is common sense -- prejudice?

Let us await the upheaval and regard those foolish enough to engage therein. And the fools who allowed the setting ablaze of Muhammed and those who partook in it should be set gainst the wall for stupidity of a too low kind.

Gawain of Orkeny

06-25-2007, 23:45

Can anyone translate the words in the beggining of that video?

Hosakawa Tito

06-25-2007, 23:52

While understandable and true, I have found general "common sense" among people to be nothing but irrationality nowadays. I mean... what is common sense -- prejudice?

Let us await the upheaval and regard those foolish enough to engage therein. And the fools who allowed the setting ablaze of Muhammed and those who partook in it should be set gainst the wall for stupidity of a too low kind.

I believe you just need to look to the recent riots in France to get an idea of what may happen....

Mikeus Caesar

06-26-2007, 00:01

I believe you just need to look to the recent riots in France to get an idea of what may happen....

Oh noes, a media blitzkrieg of the likes we've never seen before...

Guess i won't be watching news channels for quite a while.

Whacker

06-26-2007, 00:17

My first reaction when clicking this was "What the @#%@% did our own Daveyboy do NOW??" I'm all for freedom of expression, but methinks Hosakawa has it right, no good will come of this.

Louis VI the Fat

06-26-2007, 00:38

Ah mon Dieu, Tristuskhan. Veuillez vous relire avant de poster vôtre commentaire poétique...~:eek:

Sorry, I'm french you know!:furious3: :wall:
Il n’est pas nécessaire de toujours utiliser la traduction exacte, mais seulement le terme le plus courant dans la langue que vous utiliserez. ~;)

InsaneApache

06-26-2007, 00:40

I've just got wind of a curry strike in Bradford.

News at eleven.

Strike For The South

06-26-2007, 00:43

Hey at least there not taking it in the teeth

CBR

06-26-2007, 01:10

Can anyone translate the words in the beggining of that video?
Some website already had translated it so saved me the trouble.

We declare:

Saint Hans’ Eve has always celebrated the tradition of burning away the evil, in earlier times symbolized by the witch, who was supposedly directly connected to Satan. And if the witch was not burned then the harvest could not be safely brought into the house.

Now a new evil has arrived in Europe, an evil that lies and kills in the name of their so-called God. An evil that springs from the so-called Prophet Mohammed. Therefore, in our time, it is he who symbolizes evil and it is not just one harvest that will disappear, but all of Western Europe’s future that will vanish if this evil is not dispatched to Hekkenfeldt [i.e. Hell, literally the Hekla volcano in Iceland — BB].

Therefore will we burn the so-called Prophet Mohammed, on June 23, 2007, in three nameless places.

We burned Mohammed in three different places across the country. We now release the video from the first burning. The next videos will be released on July 23 and August 23.

For a Mohammed-free Denmark!!!

Tribesman

06-26-2007, 01:26

We declare:

Saint Hans’ Eve has always celebrated the tradition of burning away the evil, in earlier times symbolized by the witch, who was supposedly directly connected to Satan. And if the witch was not burned then the harvest could not be safely brought into the house.

Now a new evil has arrived in Europe, an evil that lies and kills in the name of their so-called God. An evil that springs from the so-called Prophet Mohammed. Therefore, in our time, it is he who symbolizes evil and it is not just one harvest that will disappear, but all of Western Europe’s future that will vanish if this evil is not dispatched to Hekkenfeldt [i.e. Hell, literally the Hekla volcano in Iceland — BB].

Therefore will we burn the so-called Prophet Mohammed, on June 23, 2007, in three nameless places.

We burned Mohammed in three different places across the country. We now release the video from the first burning. The next videos will be released on July 23 and August 23.

For a Mohammed-free Denmark!!!

I wonder if they would have burnt Jewish effigies if they was around in the 30s:dizzy2:

InsaneApache

06-26-2007, 01:28

Are kebabs off teh menu then?

Whacker

06-26-2007, 01:30

Are kebabs off teh menu then?

Methinks pork fritters are probably more likely given the circumstances...

master of the puppets

06-26-2007, 01:37

well i think the straw can now be cosidered a brick and that camel looks a bit shaky.

I'm worried now just as much about these anti-islamics as the mnslims themselves, anyone so unheeding of the inevitable upheaval is as not to be trusted with fire and a video camera.

...hm i always imagined the M-man would be a bit more plump...

Crazed Rabbit

06-26-2007, 01:51

I wonder if they would have burnt Jewish effigies if they was around in the 30s:dizzy2:

Lol, typical ad homenim.

As to the video - it may be that a couple of guys with a video camera change the future.

No good will come of this. The ensuing extremist's one-upmanship from both sides will also harm innocents as well.

Bah! Islamic extremists have been burning our flags and effigies for ages. The reaction will be interesting though - how many riots can a couple guys with lighter fluid cause?

anyone so unheeding of the inevitable upheaval is as not to be trusted with fire and a video camera.

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Crazed Rabbit

Gawain of Orkeny

06-26-2007, 01:53

wonder if they would have burnt Jewish effigies if they was around in the 30s

Who knows maybe their parents did.

Divinus Arma

06-26-2007, 02:31

Reminds me of that South Park episode.

Warning: South Park Quality Language
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyr9LToH8W8

Lemur

06-26-2007, 02:38

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/timothy20allen_extreme20irony.jpg

Xiahou

06-26-2007, 02:44

Is it offensive to their religion? Sure. Does it justify any kind of violent reaction? No. Christians are expected to, and do, take much more offensive actions in stride. I don't support this group's actions, but the violent outbursts that often accompany events like this in the Muslim world are even less acceptable.

Divinus Arma

06-26-2007, 02:45

https://img171.imageshack.us/img171/103/beheadns4.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

LeftEyeNine

06-26-2007, 02:45

OMG, Gates Of Vienna chosen as the icon of all this hatred. ROFLMAO. :laugh4:

Seriously it doesn't matter where you live or what your nationality is. :laugh4:

Seamus Fermanagh

06-26-2007, 03:42

Slyspy

06-26-2007, 04:58

OMG, Gates Of Vienna chosen as the icon of all this hatred. ROFLMAO. :laugh4:

Seriously it doesn't matter where you live or what your nationality is. :laugh4:

Yeah, I had a quiet chuckle to myself when I saw the name of the website.

I few morons with a guy and a lighter does not a political force make.

We burn in effigy a Catholic every November, but these days our Catholic population is nicely integrated. :laugh4:

Tristuskhan

06-26-2007, 06:04

Ah mon Dieu, Tristuskhan. Veuillez vous relire avant de poster vôtre commentaire poétique...~:eek:

Il n’est pas nécessaire de toujours utiliser la traduction exacte, mais seulement le terme le plus courant dans la langue que vous utiliserez. ~;)

Oh, I think you misunderstood my point, I was not justifiying my words with translation problems, just stating that beeing french I was liable to use an offensive language everytime I can. Sticking to "our" rudeness cliché, en somme....:furious3: :whip:

PanzerJaeger

06-26-2007, 07:18

Ill be there... to whom do I RSVP? :laugh4:

Samurai Waki

06-26-2007, 08:46

yes...yes. All is going as I have planned. :balloon2:

doc_bean

06-26-2007, 09:21

They'd been burning puppets of Mohammed in Spain for centuries on a national feast, no one got beheaded because of that.

If the 'muslim world' is going to be dumb enough to actually blame the 'west' for this and not just the fringe lunatics that actually did it then something like this was bound to happen sooner or later.

Fragony

06-26-2007, 09:49

If they are angry so what, they are angry anyway. Those that take offence have extending toes you just cannot help stepping on.

Spetulhu

06-26-2007, 10:04

If they are angry so what, they are angry anyway. Those that take offence have extending toes you just cannot help stepping on.

It doesn't help that some people will use things like this as a tool for their own ends. Remember the Mohammed cartoon scandal? The reason it became such a big affair was that some Danish clerics added pictures to the portfolio and went touring in islamic countries. We can see it's just a few silly people with a camera burning a badly made doll, but the ones that want to their muslims upset aren't going to present it as such.

Fragony

06-26-2007, 10:12

It doesn't help that some people will use things like this as a tool for their own ends. Remember the Mohammed cartoon scandal? The reason it became such a big affair was that some Danish clerics added pictures to the portfolio and went touring in islamic countries. We can see it's just a few silly people with a camera burning a badly made doll, but the ones that want to their muslims upset aren't going to present it as such.

No doubt a terrible year for Bang&Olufson :laugh4:

Meneldil

06-26-2007, 10:37

Wow, saddening I say. I expected the average european to be a bit less stupid than that. And not only they are total idiots, but they are also quite lame, as they doesn't want to appear on the video.
BTW, I'm fairly sure they are the kind of people who would have burnt Jews' shops back in the 1930's-1940's. Cowardness, racism, sillyness : a good first step for fascist wannabes.

On the other hand, as soon as the average muslim flag-burner imam will hear that, we'll have a lot of other morons running in the street, burning things there and there, threatening to behead people if they don't behave correctly, and what not.

And LoL @ the name of the anti-muslim blog. "Gates of Vienna". WTH ?

What a silly era.

Adrian II

06-26-2007, 10:48

OMG, Gates Of Vienna chosen as the icon of all this hatred. ROFLMAO. :laugh4:Didn't the defense of those gates give birth to the croissant? Heaven knows what Danish delicacies tomorrow will bring. I am all for burning effigies in the interest of culinary progress.

As for the subject, I think the Lemur expressed it wordlessly yet adequately. Western and Jewish flags and effigies are burning constantly across the Muslim world in the name of an intolerant and violent prophet. If it is that prophet that is being burned in Denmark, I can only applaud the campaign and hope that he will go the way of Guy Fawkes.

The Mohammad story of course could never be burned and will retain pride of place on my bookshelf as part and parcel of the great adventure of mankind.

doc_bean

06-26-2007, 10:58

Wow, saddening I say. I expected the average european to be a bit less stupid than that.

There are nearly 300 million of us, a little spread on the intelligence front is to be expected.

macsen rufus

06-26-2007, 11:07

If the 'muslim world' is going to be dumb enough to actually blame the 'west' for this and not just the fringe lunatics

Hmmm..... it would only be fair:

If the 'muslim world' 'west' is going to be dumb enough to actually blame the 'west' 'muslim world' for this and not just the fringe lunatics

LeftEyeNine

06-26-2007, 11:26

As for the subject, I think the Lemur expressed it wordlessly yet adequately. Western and Jewish flags and effigies are burning constantly across the Muslim world in the name of an intolerant and violent prophet. If it is that prophet that is being burned in Denmark, I can only applaud the campaign and hope that he will go the way of Guy Fawkes.

Seriously it doesn't matter where you live or what your nationality is. :laugh4:

Seems I'm proven out. :2thumbsup:

Husar

06-26-2007, 11:27

:inquisitive:

Is it really that important?
Osama can just upload his own video burning a Dane as a response on YouTube and everything is fine.

Ja'chyra

06-26-2007, 11:34

So what did they actually do, they burnt a wax figurine, big deal.

Any violent response to this would be totally unacceptable and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I do find it amusing how people make excuses for some religions or groups to do this sort of thing but find it totally unacceptable in response.

p.s. Just noticed I spelt "amusing" as "anusing", glad I spotted that before DD :clown:

KukriKhan

06-26-2007, 14:32

Ironies spotted:

-they used the Danish cartoon as the effigy 'head'
-after the initial 'flash', what remained was a burning cross
-'Gates of Vienna'
-face-hiding burning guy used a Zippo lighter (are they common in Europe?)

I'm actually beginning to suspect this was 'made in the usa'.

HoreTore

06-26-2007, 14:40

-face-hiding burning guy used a Zippo lighter (are they common in Europe?)

I'm actually beginning to suspect this was 'made in the usa'.

Zippo's are quite common, at least here in scandinavia. As for their nationality, I don't doubt that they're danish, and I'm guessing at neo-nazi's. Their "message" sounded way to similar to previous messages from such groups, so I'll bet my money on them.

Oh, and they also hide their faces(like the klan).

Gawain of Orkeny

06-26-2007, 14:47

Wow, saddening I say. I expected the average european to be a bit less stupid than that. And not only they are total idiots, but they are also quite lame, as they doesn't want to appear on the video.

hey may be dumb but I doubt they have a death wish. However this still lies at the feet of the Mulims around the world. Its their intolernace that is the real problem. Ive always wished they would make a movie like the life of Brian on Mohamed. Can you imagine that? The life of Mustapha. A parody on the prophet Mohamed. People running around chopping of heads saying .Its a miracle its a miracle. Most Christians think the life of Brian is hilarious.

KukriKhan

06-26-2007, 14:49

Zippo's are quite common, at least here in scandinavia. As for their nationality, I don't doubt that they're danish, and I'm guessing at neo-nazi's. Their "message" sounded way to similar to previous messages from such groups, so I'll bet my money on them.

Oh, and they also hide their faces(like the klan).

Thanks for the info, HoreTore. :bow:

HoreTore

06-26-2007, 14:55

Can anyone translate the words in the beggining of that video?

Unlikely, the world has yet to see a human being capable of translating danish.

LeftEyeNine

06-26-2007, 15:14

hey may be dumb but I doubt they have a death wish. However this still lies at the feet of the Mulims around the world. Its their intolernace that is the real problem. Ive always wished they would make a movie like the life of Brian on Mohamed. Can you imagine that? The life of Mustapha. A parody on the prophet Mohamed. People running around chopping of heads saying .Its a miracle its a miracle. Most Christians think the life of Brian is hilarious.

How do you set the standards of common sense ? How can you claim that Western way of perception is the right way to go ? Why can't you tolerate what others can't tolerate ?

Anyways, Gates Of Vienna again. :laugh4:

Strike For The South

06-26-2007, 15:18

LEN I may not agree western perception is always the best but sometimes the muslims just need to tone it down about. Not every non beliver is trying to take down your religon and spit on Allah. Just learn to live with them.

Devastatin Dave

06-26-2007, 15:18

.

p.s. Just noticed I spelt "amusing" as "anusing", glad I spotted that before DD :clown:
Dammit!!! Missed it. That would have got me atleast 2 or 3 quips!!!
Anyway, In no way do I condone this by posting this article. I just was wondering if it was true considering the website. Even though the prophet had a questionable history (child molestation, robbery, murder, etc) its wrong to burn his image, like it is wrong to burn a cross or other religious articles. This is not a "courageous" action, but a foolish one in my opinion.:no:

Whacker

06-26-2007, 15:19

I would like to further add that the 'effigy" was one of the absolute lamest I have ever seen, it was some sticks with a rag and a printed out cartoon on it. I mean c'mon guys, if you are gonna do it, at least put some effort into it!

master of the puppets

06-26-2007, 17:01

:coffeenews: well no riots yet...

Adrian II

06-26-2007, 17:12

As for their nationality, I don't doubt that they're danish, and I'm guessing at neo-nazi's.Nobody knows what nationality they are, right? And as far as I understand the text isn't fascist either. But boy, wouldn't it be convenient if they were neo-nazis.

Anyway, even if they are neo-nazi's they have the right to express themselves in this way. That is what this is about. Freedom of opinion. The right to speak your mind and reject other people's views, Gods and symbols without having to fear for your life. And I don't care one iota if every western act of blasphemy creates a hundred new islamist terrorists. Every act of islamist intolerance creates a thousand new western blasphemers.

Tristuskhan

06-26-2007, 17:28

Nobody knows what nationality they are, right? And as far as I understand the text isn't fascist either. But boy, wouldn't it be convenient if they were neo-nazis.

Anyway, even if they are neo-nazi's they have the right to express themselves in this way. That is what this is about. Freedom of opinion. The right to speak your mind and reject other people's views, Gods and symbols without having to fear for your life. And I don't care one iota if every western act of blasphemy creates a hundred new islamist terrorists. Every act of islamist intolerance creates a thousand new western blasphemers.

Quite hard to swallow, but you're right: "I disaprove your views, but I would fight for you to be able to express them" (Help me Louis, I don't remember who said that: was it Montesquieu?)

Louis VI the Fat

06-26-2007, 17:36

Voltaire.

Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu'à la mort pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire. A brilliant mind at his most brilliant.

Tristuskhan

06-26-2007, 17:37

Of course... long days under heavy rain are no good for classical culture, thank you Louis....

Adrian II

06-26-2007, 17:39

Quite hard to swallow, but you're right: "I disaprove your views, but I would fight for you to be able to express them" (Help me Louis, I don't remember who said that: was it Montesquieu?)Voltaire.

And yeah, they may be neo-nazis which is unpalatable to me too, but freedom of expression represents a greater value than Adrian's aesthetic sensitivities.

Ianofsmeg16

06-26-2007, 17:39

Dare I even say it?

Something's rotten in the State of Denmark

I'm sorry but that's the price you have to pay for my freedom of speech...i'll leave now

HoreTore

06-26-2007, 17:47

Nobody knows what nationality they are, right? And as far as I understand the text isn't fascist either. But boy, wouldn't it be convenient if they were neo-nazis.

The text greatly resembles previous statements by scandinavian nazi's, the form, words and feel used is the one the nazi's here use. So, I'll bet my money on neo-nazi's.

Strike For The South

06-26-2007, 17:56

Voltaire.

Je ne suis pas d'accord avec ce que vous dites, mais je me battrai jusqu'à la mort pour que vous ayez le droit de le dire. A brilliant mind at his most brilliant.

Hey everything sounds better in English Frenchie

Louis VI the Fat

06-26-2007, 18:27

https://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3397/sftsmi9.png

Tribesman

06-26-2007, 18:36

BTW, I'm fairly sure they are the kind of people who would have burnt Jews' shops back in the 1930's-1940's. Cowardness, racism, sillyness : a good first step for fascist wannabes.

Hold on there Meneldil , apparently comparing idiot fascists with idiot fascists is a typical ad-hominen......in some peoples books anyway:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

HoreTore

06-26-2007, 18:39

Hold on there Meneldil , apparently comparing idiot fascists with idiot fascists is a typical ad-hominen......in some peoples books anyway:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I don't see why that is funny, I see no similarity between those two.

:laugh4:

Del Arroyo

06-26-2007, 18:57

I really wish people would find a way to de-religify the current cultural clash in Europe. This has nothing to do with anyone's prophets.

I do, however, feel that the fight for freedom of expression in Europe is worth it at any cost.

And, to add a bit of perspective-- yes, people of diverse national, political, and religious backgrounds in the Muslim world do burn effigies of Bush, Blair, and flags of certain countries like the US and Israel. But they would never burn Jesus or Moses.

master of the puppets

06-26-2007, 19:20

HEY IS THAT A RIOT!!!
:tumbleweed:
no wait... it's only a tumbleweed, you'd think that by now the islamic extremists would be able to leap into action anytime but...

Strike For The South

06-26-2007, 19:39

https://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3397/sftsmi9.png

~:flirt:

Hosakawa Tito

06-26-2007, 20:12

^^^ nice mullet ^^^

Gawain of Orkeny

06-26-2007, 21:26

Muslim world do burn effigies of Bush, Blair, and flags of certain countries like the US and Israel. But they would never burn Jesus or Moses.

Reality check tiime

Any Idea what this is?

http://www.incommunion.org/img/kosovo-relics.jpg
The tomb of the 14th cenutry Saint Joanikije of Devic was broken, marble slabs taken away, and the relics set on fire. The entire chapel at the monastery of Devic was burned with all frescoes.

I suppose none of those were of Jesus or Moses.

Albania : Muslims Torch Churches , Hate Christ (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/GrantSwank60309.htm)

"East Timor remained largely unreported throughout the 80's and most of the 90's. A Christian land ravaged by Muslims - nobody cared. Untold crimes have been committed in the Chittagong Hill Tracts of Bangladesh against the Chakmas, and yet how often is the conflict reported? - never!," a believer noted in despair.

Over 150 churches and monasteries in Kosovo, Serbia have been destroyed or seriously damaged over the last 6 years. Now authorities project to turn the hull of one sanctuary into a nightclub. The Church of Christ the Savior in Pristina has been turned into public toilet.

Muslims burn others’ mosques in sectarian wars. But Muslims also burn Christian churches

However, not much media attention focuses on the leveling of Christian sanctuaries. After all, it’s just a "Christian story." However, the latest mosque burnt to the ground gets plenty of newsfeed with narrative and copious photographs.

Why?

While we attempt to answer that needling question, note that in Kosovo Province, scene after scene of heartbreak spikes the believers' hearts as they wake up to cinders for a Christian church. It is unprecedented in that area.

"I have a feeling that we are really going to pay from the nose for turning the cradle of Serbian Orthodoxy into an abomination of desolation," one observed.

These sanctuaries have been scorched, not in time of battle, but five years after the media-saturated conflict. Nuns are left to live in burnt out boxcars. The Christian hallowed places have been sent into oblivion while UN protectorates are on site along with 18,000 NATO militia designated.

LINK (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/GrantSwank60309.htm)

How can you make such an obviously false statement. I suppose they dont destroy statues of Buddah either. But they make a fuss over drawing Mohamed.

They just burn down the entire church. I suppose they could go in and remove all the pictures of Jesus or Moses but what do you think the chances of that are?

Xiahou

06-26-2007, 21:26

HEY IS THAT A RIOT!!!
:tumbleweed:
no wait... it's only a tumbleweed, you'd think that by now the islamic extremists would be able to leap into action anytime but...
Meh, it'd take awhile before anything would happen. An obscure video like that needs to be found by the right kooks before it can become international news.

Of course, the right response would be exactly what's happening right now- nothing.

HoreTore

06-26-2007, 21:39

How can you make such an obviously false statement. I suppose they dont destroy statues of Buddah either. But they make a fuss over drawing Mohamed.

I assume he was talking about things burning during riots, ie. not in looting/wartime, where every religion/group of whatever focus on destroying all enemy icons of any kind. If the enemy is an opposing muslim faction and you're a different kind of muslim, you still burn his heathen/infidel/blasphemous mosque. If he's a different kind of christian than your own christianity, you still burn his heathen/infidel/blasphemous church to ground. If you're a marxist-leninist, you burn all of it. If you intend to kill a leninist, you topple his 100 foot statue.

It's an effective war/oppression-strategy, nothing else. However, when protesting against foreign powers in a at least semi-diplomatic fashion(I count rioting as a semi), then other rules apply.

Seamus Fermanagh

06-26-2007, 22:09

The tomb of the 14th cenutry Saint Joanikije of Devic was broken, marble slabs taken away, and the relics set on fire. The entire chapel at the monastery of Devic was burned with all frescoes.

I suppose none of those were of Jesus or Moses. How can you make such an obviously false statement. I suppose they dont destroy statues of Buddah either. But they make a fuss over drawing Mohamed.

They just burn down the entire church. I suppose they could go in and remove all the pictures of Jesus or Moses but what do you think the chances of that are?

Gawain:

I'm not much of an Islamist fan either but....

I think it's a little hard to "judge" all of Europe by the activities of pretty much any of the factions in the Southern Balkans. That region has been something of a basket case since the 1200's.

Don Corleone

06-26-2007, 22:14

Gawain:

I'm not much of an Islamist fan either but....

I think it's a little hard to "judge" all of Europe by the activities of pretty much any of the factions in the Southern Balkans. That region has been something of a basket case since the 1200's.

:stop: No fair bringing reason and rationed responses into this...

Honestly, is anybody actually defending the guys that set Mohammed on fire and said these hateful things? I mean, defend their right to say them, sure, goes without saying. But is anybody taking offense when the 'free-speakers' are subjected to a 'free-speech-rebuttal'? I mean, if you want to say racist things, be my guest, but don't be surprised when you get called on it.

To the Muslim visitors in the Backroom, LEN et. al., please accept my apologies on behalf of whatever white-pseudo-Christian nutjobs were behind the masks on that video. They have not adopted the message of Christ nor do they represent a plurality opinion. We humor them, as we have found this is the best way to diffuse their moblike mentality, but by no means do we endorse these sentiments (well, most of us don't). As-salaamu Alaikum, and thank you for your patience. :bow:

Seamus Fermanagh

06-26-2007, 22:18

:stop: No fair bringing reason and rationed responses into this...

Honestly, is anybody actually defending the guys that set Mohammed on fire and said these hateful things? I mean, defend their right to say them, sure, goes without saying. But is anybody taking offense when the 'free-speakers' are subjected to a 'free-speech-rebuttal'? I mean, if you want to say racist things, be my guest, but don't be surprised when you get called on it.

To the Muslim visitors in the Backroom, LEN et. al., please accept my apologies on behalf of whatever white-pseudo-Christian nutjob was behind the masks on that video. They do not represent a plurality. We humor them, as we have found this is the best way to diffuse their moblike mentality, but by no means do we endorse these sentiments (well, most of us don't). As-salaamu Alaikum, and thank you for your patience. :bow:

Amen I say to you, Amen.

Though I should not that your own stop sign should be reflexively applied.

Gawain of Orkeny

06-26-2007, 22:25

I think it's a little hard to "judge" all of Europe by the activities of pretty much any of the factions in the Southern Balkans. That region has been something of a basket case since the 1200's

Whos judging all of Europe he made a silly statement. That they dont burn these pictures. And dont tell me its limited to this.

Wahabbis destroy Muslim holy sites (http://www.estatevaults.com/lm/archives/002357.html)

THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE MOUNT ANTIQUITIES (http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp483.htm)

Does this sound familiar.

The 53-meter (175-foot) tall, 2000-year-old Buddha statue located in Bamyan, about 150 kilometers (90 miles) west of the Afghan capital Kabul, is shown in November 28, 1997, file photo. Afghanistan's hardline Taliban rulers ordered the destruction, Monday of all statues as insulting Islam, including this, the world's tallest standing Buddha statue which was already damaged in fighting. The Taliban said they began to destroy the statues

Muslim Youths Destroy 10 Nigerian Churches (http://www.crosswalk.com/1428852/)

Malaysian Government Demolished Church Building (http://global-south.blogspot.com/2007/06/malaysian-government-demolished-church.html)

Churches in Global-South faces persecution.

Need I continue.?

Don Corleone

06-26-2007, 22:29

Whos judging all of Europe he made a silly statement. That they dont burn these pictures. And dont tell me its limited to this.

Wahabbis destroy Muslim holy sites (http://www.estatevaults.com/lm/archives/002357.html)

THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE MOUNT ANTIQUITIES (http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp483.htm)

Does this look familiar.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mmjp.or.jp/amlang.atc/worldnow/01/mar/09top.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mmjp.or.jp/amlang.atc/worldnow/01/mar/09.htm&h=316&w=449&sz=25&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=eZPSrYb-egpUyM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmuslims%2Bdestroy%2Bstatues%2Bof%2Bbuddha%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B2GG FB_enUS222US222

Muslim Youths Destroy 10 Nigerian Churches (http://www.crosswalk.com/1428852/)

Malaysian Government Demolished Church Building (http://global-south.blogspot.com/2007/06/malaysian-government-demolished-church.html)

Churches in Global-South faces persecution.

Need I continue.?

So some radical extremists in Islam defaced some Christian, Muslim and Buddhist symbols, and you think that means Christians should respond by defacing some Islamic symbols and prove that they can be every bit as whacked out as the fringe elements in Islamic society?

Hmm... .... what is it about two wrongs again....:juggle2:

I didn't think you were Christian, anyway. Why are you so offended?

Gawain of Orkeny

06-26-2007, 22:48

So some radical extremists in Islam defaced some Christian, Muslim and Buddhist symbols, and you think that means Christians should respond by defacing some Islamic symbols and prove that they can be every bit as whacked out as the fringe elements in Islamic society?

Some ? Its practiced by them around the world for centuries and it was far worse back then. Look what they did to Jerusalem.

Honestly, is anybody actually defending the guys that set Mohammed on fire and said these hateful things?

Amen I say to you, Amen.

You two can climb down off your high horses now. I made it perfectly clear why I posted this. I think these guys are idiots as well. I dont think any reigious icons of any faith should be disrespected in that manner. It seems however that Muslims do this quite often. More often than others.

I didn't think you were Christian, anyway. Why are you so offended?

Offended?

Besides I showed you instances where they have desicrated almost every great religion on earth including their own.

Hmm... .... what is it about two wrongs again....

Neither do 1000

I must add this deeply saddens me I thought you knew me better than to accuse me of defending these people. I know this is the backroom but really. I can take it from the left but again this hurts.

Tristuskhan

06-26-2007, 23:13

Some ? Its practiced by them around the world for centuries and it was far worse back then. Look what they did to Jerusalem.

Hum, the sack of Jerusalem was a crusader act, as far as I know. Crusaders killing everyone including christians, up to the church of Saint Sepulcre (don't know how to spell it in english). When Salah-ad-din took the city back it was almost peaceful compared to this slaughter. Open your history books Gawain!

Gawain of Orkeny

06-26-2007, 23:18

Hum, the sack of Jerusalem was a crusader act, as far as I know.

I never said Christians were saints either. And that was a holy war on both sides. And Saladin was not your average Muslim. You do notice however how carefully we avoid damaging Mosques.

master of the puppets

06-26-2007, 23:19

Honestly, is anybody actually defending the guys that set Mohammed on fire and said these hateful things? I mean, defend their right to say them, sure, goes without saying. But is anybody taking offense when the 'free-speakers' are subjected to a 'free-speech-rebuttal'? I mean, if you want to say racist things, be my guest, but don't be surprised when you get called on it.

well Corleone if it were just extremists butting heads with extremists no one would care. but when one extremist burns down some innocent mans business or blows himself up killing many then it becomes everyones problem. I don't say that they did not have the right to expression, i'm saying they were irrasponsable with that right and may have put many in danger.

as to why muslims target religion... isn't it obvious? For centuries islamic nations have been theocracies and the main religion pervaded every aspect of the citizens lives. so why should insults be different? Also if a theocracy is threatened by a opposing religion it is also a political battle.

Xiahou

06-26-2007, 23:32

And, to add a bit of perspective-- yes, people of diverse national, political, and religious backgrounds in the Muslim world do burn effigies of Bush, Blair, and flags of certain countries like the US and Israel. But they would never burn Jesus or Moses.
Probably because Jesus and Moses are both holy figures under Islam as well, no?
However, they have burned the Pope, for example, in effigy. I'm not sure if you were trying to make the claim or not, but many Muslims, and certainly the more extremist ones don't typically show the same respect for other religions in their own country than what is afforded their religion in traditionally Christian countries.

I'm sure this will be taken as a bash by someone, but how in many Muslim countries is it outright illegal to convert to Christianity- and in how many "Christian" countries is the opposite illegal? You can talk about extremists on both sides, but in general, you're going to find "Christian" countries are far more tolerant of Muslims than the reverse. :shrug:

I don't know if that's what Gawain was trying to get it- but I would agree with that much at least.

Tribesman

06-26-2007, 23:56

I'm sure this will be taken as a bash by someone, but how in many Muslim countries is it outright illegal to convert to Christianity- and in how many "Christian" countries is the opposite illegal? You can talk about extremists on both sides, but in general, you're going to find "Christian" countries are far more tolerant of Muslims than the reverse.
Yep , but it was not always so . Christianity used to have lots of convert or die and die you unchristian christian stuff , some good old church burnings and all that, it has in the main settled down now .
Islam like Christianity is constantly changing , the current schism with the fundies is just like Luther , they will get over it .

Xiahou

06-27-2007, 00:09

Yep , but it was not always so . Christianity used to have lots of convert or die and die you unchristian christian stuff , some good old church burnings and all that, it has in the main settled down now .
Islam like Christianity is constantly changing , the current schism with the fundies is just like Luther , they will get over it .
And they're fairly criticized on these points until they do finally "get over it". Again, people point to extremists on both sides, but it's hard to ignore the fact that, right now, Muslim extremists are more prolific, more violent, and more accepted by their mainstream than their Christian counterparts.

This doesn't make Islam a "bad" religion, per se- but there are definitely a lot of big problems that need sorting out.

Papewaio

06-27-2007, 00:13

Voltaire.

A truly great person... croissants, movies and coffee another thing I like about the French is some of the most brilliant philosophers and scientists.

Oh, truffles too...

Tribesman

06-27-2007, 00:25

This doesn't make Islam a "bad" religion, per se- but there are definitely a lot of big problems that need sorting out.

Yep problems , but how often in a simple forum like this do you see the fundy nutcases views being attributed to the whole religeon and all of its flavours ?

Proletariat

06-27-2007, 00:34

Yep problems , but how often in a simple forum like this do you see the fundy nutcases views being attributed to the whole religeon and all of its flavours ?

Not often. Who're the people you're thinking of in the backroom that 'attribute the fundy nutcase view to the whole religion and all it's flavors?' I can think of one or two maybe, but it's seldom, imo.

Gawain of Orkeny

06-27-2007, 00:34

I don't know if that's what Gawain was trying to get it- but I would agree with that much at least.

Im not defending them or saying two wrongs make a right. But dont you see the irony here?

And again I also support free speech. Even if I think what their saying or doing is deplorable.

Seamus Fermanagh

06-27-2007, 03:59

Im not defending them or saying two wrongs make a right. But dont you see the irony here?

And again I also support free speech. Even if I think what their saying or doing is deplorable.

Didn't think you were defending those yahoos -- I know your libertarian self believes in their right to be idiots all on their own.

The "Amen I Say..." was simply a little Bible-based counter-wording to Don C's Koranic sign-off. I'm much too flawed an individual to play the "holier than thou" role seriously.

Gawain, your underlying theme -- that whatever inanities were practiced in the name of religion prior to 1200 by both muslims or christians, it is the muslims who seem to be the ones still continuing such efforts -- is a valid one, and a vital one for moderate followers of the prophet to address.

No disprespect was intended.

Gawain of Orkeny

06-27-2007, 04:24

Thanks , that makes me feel a lot better. You are two of the posters I respect most on these boards and it looked to me as if you were ganging up on me and taking me wrong. My apologies.

KukriKhan

06-27-2007, 04:28

Im not defending them or saying two wrongs make a right. But dont you see the irony here?

And again I also support free speech. Even if I think what their saying or doing is deplorable.

Yep. Irony dripping all over the place.

*Cleanup on aisle 9!*

Hey everything sounds better in English Frenchie

I dunno, mate. After reading Louis's french rendition of Voltaire, then speaking it aloud (in my best Maurice Chevalier accent; butchering the vowels, I'm sure) Mrs. Kukri turned to me and said: "Are you speaking French to me, darling?", with upraised eyebrows...

...not sure a west texas twang woulda had the same effect. :)

no offense. :bow:

So, if I read correctly, we agree that effigy burners = if not bad ('cause everyone's entitled to express their opinion), at least = ineffectual, inflammatory (sorry), and juvenile?

Well maybe not ineffectual, since supporters of the fake-burnt guy get insulted, which was intended by the burners.

Is a civilization that can laugh at the insult of an effigy burning superior to the civilization of the burners?

Or is burning effigies so widespread among all cultures that no real judgment can be made?

Is it speech? Apparently we think so. What does the act "say"? What should be the response of the supporters of the effigy? Counter-effigy burning? Actual burning of people and/or their 'stuff'?

Sorry for rambling. Just wanted to advance the conversation; but Ms Kukri seems to want more french-talk. :)

So adieu.

Gawain of Orkeny

06-27-2007, 04:31

Hope you dont get tongue tied.

master of the puppets

06-27-2007, 04:34

go get er buddy

i just see it as as much as it is freedom of speech, it is also freedom of religion because how can you defend your religion without ripping on anothers.

Gawain of Orkeny

06-27-2007, 04:45

I just see it as as much as it is freedom of speech, it is also freedom of religion because how can you defend your religion without ripping on anothers.

Yes thats why the Islam and Christianity threads get so testy. Its good to be neither so you can state your opinion openly without resorting to such things. You can then bash all religions equally.

Husar

06-27-2007, 11:31

Well, all your views are false, but I respect them nonetheless.:inquisitive:

Don Corleone

06-27-2007, 12:23

I must add this deeply saddens me I thought you knew me better than to accuse me of defending these people. I know this is the backroom but really. I can take it from the left but again this hurts.

Well then I apologize. It seemed to me yesterday afternoon that you were making a case defending not just the right to say what they said but how they said it.

And what I said yesterday wasn't Koranic. It's not a strictly Muslim term. It's Arabic for "Peace be with you", a phrase Christians should know in as many languages as they can retain.

All I'm saying is regardless of whether some muslims desecrated a shrine or blew up a large Buddha, at the end of the day, these are just tokens. If you give in to revenge and start trying to one-up them in terms of outrages, they've taken something away from that's a lot more valuable than any statue.

Seamus Fermanagh

06-27-2007, 13:20

go get er buddys.

Sheesh....at least our Nepalese knife-lord moderator was VAGUELY subtle about it. Your approach makes me think of trumpets and cavalry charges.....

Un peu de la savoir faire est un bon idee. L'amour est une caresse pas un <schwerpunkt>.

:devilish:

Gawain of Orkeny

06-27-2007, 14:59

If you give in to revenge and start trying to one-up them in terms of outrages, they've taken something away from that's a lot more valuable than any statue.If you give in to revenge and start trying to one-up them in terms of outrages, they've taken something away from that's a lot more valuable than any statue.

How is burning a or drawing a picture equivalent to killing people or destroying property? How do you see that as revenge? It may be bad and poor taste. If I want revenge for those things Im going to do a lot more than draw a picture. I get your point though and agree.

master of the puppets

06-27-2007, 17:06

Sheesh....at least our Nepalese knife-lord moderator was VAGUELY subtle about it. Your approach makes me think of trumpets and cavalry charges.....

...whats wrong with trumpets and cavalry charges? how exactly do you do it if my way is so wrong!?
(jk of course)

so anyway i think we can mostly agree on the following points.

-any religion is libel to go overboard
-freedom of speech and expression are good as long as you can moderate yourself
-fanatics are jerks

anymore we should add/detract