View Full Version : invincible army??? II
What do you think, in the light of the demo and new info about unit types, which faction will have an invincible army?
IMO the english looks incredible strong with the that billmen/longbowmen combo. The byzantines looks good too; they have a strong infantry, a strong heavy cavalry (kataphraktoi), and a strong light cav (alan mercenaries). The turks looks good for the same reason, i.e. strong infantry (janissars), strong heavy and light cav (khwarazmians and turkoman horsemen).
PS. admins plz give back the old "invicible army" thread!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 03:13
The Turks! They have very few weaknesses, if any at all. They have all the bases covered, strong heavy infantry, versatile light infantry, great heavy cav., great light cav, superior tech. In the Late era they will be a force to be reconned with.
hunkypex
07-12-2002, 03:16
I hope there wont be an invincible army, hard to beat maybe. How many people will use historically accurate tactics? not a whole lot i think so i think theirs room for historically weaker factions to win more. I hope/expect their to be ways to defeat units or combos of units probably with tactics more than other units of the this one always kills that one variety.
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 03:18
And Cheetah, about Byzantium and England, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. And I also think Italy will be very strong. With the pope at their back, and strong income from Mediteranean trade, they'll definitly be worth a glance. Not to mention their innovations in weapons and ships! Spain to may have an "invincible army." With a mix of Islamic and Christian influences, who knows what they can do.
Not to forget their pavise arbalesters... They look to be great.
well u people have good suggestions.however u most look back in history england,france, byzantine,and italians were the top nochers.turkish were not. and then there is ur under doggs who beat the top nochers:germany(who is half top nach and half barbarian)scotland(who i will be mostly cause my heritage and they rule)spain/portigal who r in there own little arib nieboring world, who knows their capability,and then theres the people like the swedish and vikings ,if theres going to be any??? these will and r the counries with the biggest hopes in conquering europe.
LittleGrizzly
07-12-2002, 04:15
ok this may b stupid but WTF r billmen and what do they do and r they all called bill ?
Darkmoor_Dragon
07-12-2002, 04:34
Being good in battle will not be all thats required to conquer europe - indeed being superb in battle will not aid you "that much" unless you've the economic nowse to back it up.
Quote Originally posted by LittleGrizzly:
ok this may b stupid but WTF r billmen and what do they do and r they all called bill ?[/QUOTE]
Here's the unit description from the txt files in the demo.
'Billmen
The billhook was a farming tool: an axe-and-hook with a long handle. After it had evolved into a weapon, it could hack, stab or drag a man to his death. English Billmen are well trained in fighting against armoured and mounted soldiers, pulling knights or men-at-arms to their deaths!'
Like so many other polearms, it was originally an agricultural tool that got tied to a long pole when someone needed a weapon in a hurry. The tool is heavy bladed like a machete, but with a curved/ hooked blade. This basic form was adapted over time,e.g the addition of armor piecing spikes.
The link below shows a picture of a bill head, which would be mounted on a c.6' stave. http://www.paul-binns-swords.co.uk/polearms.htm
Or maybe im completely wrong, they might just be mates with that guy 'Alan the Cavalry Mercenary' http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
(Edit: Phew, i'm not an Ashi anymore! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )
[This message has been edited by Wart (edited 07-11-2002).]
GAH!
Invincible army: armored pikes with gunnies in front. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
At least, until they face gunnies themselves. Pikes I bet will die fast to gunnies.
GAH!
Sir Kuma of The Org
07-12-2002, 05:27
Quote Originally posted by Cheetah:
What do you think, in the light of the demo and new info about unit types, which faction will have an invincible army?
IMO the english looks incredible strong with the that billmen/longbowmen combo. The byzantines looks good too; they have a strong infantry, a strong heavy cavalry (kataphraktoi), and a strong light cav (alan mercenaries). The turks looks good for the same reason, i.e. strong infantry (janissars), strong heavy and light cav (khwarazmians and turkoman horsemen).
PS. admins plz give back the old "invicible army" thread!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif [/QUOTE]
We can't it has been pruned. The reality at the Org is that we can't go much over 10000 posts or we will be shut down (Remember a few months ago when the Org was closed for a few days? That was what happened).
------------------
La vie est un don.
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 06:38
To be hinest with you,I don;t thin any faction can make an "invincible" army without outside influences. In say this in the sense that you'l need over people's units. You see the Italian factions really can really only produce technically superior ranged units and lightly armored units. And for heavy infantry, they turn to the guardians of the Pope, the Swiss Pikeman for a heavy infantry. Or, an even better example, the English would need to acquire Wales to make a superior longbow. As do the Turks need some Western insight to create cannons.
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 06:41
Carnage,
How can you say the Turks are not "top-notchers" and then go and say someone like the French are? The Turks sacked the greatest city in Europe, and what did the French do? Get shot up by arrows. Please explain.
Papewaio
07-12-2002, 06:58
Quote Originally posted by Emp. Conralius:
Carnage,
How can you say the Turks are not "top-notchers" and then go and say someone like the French are? The Turks sacked the greatest city in Europe, and what did the French do? Get shot up by arrows. Please explain.[/QUOTE]
But like everything even when a pin cushion they do it with such style!
im not saying there no good i was just saying who were the rich and famous and most likly to succeed.. even though the turks r powerful theres no way they would ever take over a european because if they decided to attack someone that someone would have christain/cathlic allies.....also they took the great citie from aribs http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif and im not saying that they werent hard to beat but they r aribs http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
the Turks were pretty good (but they are gonna be the first to go when i play, national grudge) and the english seem to e in a good position but i HOPE that no faction will e invincible and that CA have done a good job balancing them all.
only time (or maybe darkmoore dragon) will tell...
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 08:14
The Turks are not Arabs. You all should no from current events that the nation of Turkey wants o be a part of the European Union. Most "arab" countries speak arabic. But Turkey or the Turks have always spoken Turkic lingos or Turkish. The only real reason Turks are in the same category as the arabs is the fact that they are Muslim. Sure the French are rich, but to really succeed in TW you'll need a half-descent military.
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 08:18
These are the Factions I plan on playing the campaign with (categorized by culture):
Western Catholic:
1)England
2)Spain
3)Italy
4)Danes
Eastern Orthodox:
1)Byzantium
2)Poland (a big maybe)
Islamic:
1)Turks (of course)
2)Egyptians (maybe)
czaralex
07-12-2002, 08:32
Hi! This is my first post on org, but I have been on the com version for a while now!
Just strated a similar thread there.
I think the Italians will be by far the toughest faction in the game. My reasoning is:
1.They have a lot of money. Genoa and Venice were two of the richest provinces in Europe at that time.
2.The have the Piavise arbalesters for ranged attacks
3.They can easilly conquer Switzerland early in the game to get the best sergeant/spear/pikeman.
4.They have the best navy in the game so they can strike any target.
5.Their most immediate enemies (Holy Romans and French) are heavy cavalry nations. With Switzerland conqured, Italy will have the best anti-cavalry units.
6.They can place their own pope without much difficulty.
7.The only real downside to Italy is lack of heavy cavalry and heavy infantry, but with the huge amount of money they have they can easily get the Knight Orders.
How can the historically weak Itallians be beaten in MTW?
there is no doubt in my mind that italy and germany and france etc.. will be strong,but england who was already very powerful is now (in the game)will be joined by scottish/irish armies thus making them the most powerful and richest in the land... not to menssion william wallace http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
scottish rulleee!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote Originally posted by Sir Kuma of The Org:
We can't it has been pruned.
[/QUOTE]
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am already missin the old "invincible army???" thread ... alas, I was careless (forgot to bump http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ) and it seems that I have to pay for my mistake http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif ... you are cruel man Sir Kuma http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif but I guess it must be in your job description ...
Aelfred Magna
07-12-2002, 12:50
One thing to take note of, in all the nations mentioned thus far as candidates for "toughest nation" is that the only one who has significant anti-cav weaponry right off the bat is England (billmen) . . . Italians have to conquer Switzerland before they can have Swiss pikemen, and I'm not sure what Turks hafta do to get Mamalukes, but they've gotta be expensive. As far as the rest (Italians, French, Byz, etc.) yeah, they've all got good cavalry, but those can be stopped with polearms, and a nice cavalry charge of your own will deal with anything else other than their own polearms. Those pavaise arbies are gonna be great at range, but ain't gonna stand up for long once the Royal Knights (or some other form of shock cav) charge in. Thus, the closest thing to an invincible nation will, IMHO, be Britain . . . they've got specialties in everything. However, I think that the right strategies can beat anybody.
With what's been said before I can't believe noone has mentioned Cannon's in their armies!
Cannon's, Guns, Pike's and a bit of cavalry will certainly rule the late parts of the campaign so overall, the faction that can achieve this, will be top!
I think Spearmen are avaialble to most at the start, but what makes England's Billmen strong is that their base stats before anti-cav modifiers, make them a good all round unit.
Czaralex, don't seem to remember Italy having the best navy in the world?
Probably most dominant in early medieval in the Med because of their empire.
Send them into the Atlantic and North sea and they wouldn't have lasted long.
Darkmoor_Dragon
07-12-2002, 16:38
forgive me but:
/em chuckles
"like lambs to the salughter...."
Quote Hi! This is my first post on org, but I have been on the com version for a while now!
Just strated a similar thread there.
I think the Italians will be by far the toughest faction in the game. My reasoning is:
1.They have a lot of money. Genoa and Venice were two of the richest provinces in Europe at that time.
2.The have the Piavise arbalesters for ranged attacks
3.They can easilly conquer Switzerland early in the game to get the best sergeant/spear/pikeman.
4.They have the best navy in the game so they can strike any target.
5.Their most immediate enemies (Holy Romans and French) are heavy cavalry nations. With Switzerland conqured, Italy will have the best anti-cavalry units.
6.They can place their own pope without much difficulty.
7.The only real downside to Italy is lack of heavy cavalry and heavy infantry, but with the huge amount of money they have they can easily get the Knight Orders.
How can the historically weak Itallians be beaten in MTW?[/QUOTE]
1. No province is rich without trade - and if your lucky you'll have 2 ships to start with...and maybe the lowest smallest income trade house. Trade empires are not founded in a day...and if your building ships, you're not building military units.
2. Hard to use, slow to fire, easy to kill in mellee.
3. Switzerland doesnt EXIST in the early game, hard to conquer a nation that doesnt exist, harder still when it normally means all-out war with the holy-roman-empire (germans).
4. Just plain wrong sorry.
5. Again, see points on swiss. Best anti-cav unit is other cavalry btw, you cant have pikemen till you can build pikes - this is end tech tree stuff.
6. Puppet popes - well go to war with the papal states and you'll be excommunicated - which means revolts all the time in home provinces and crusades launched against you... do this any time early on = death.
7. Once again "with the huge amont of money you have" - you have no money without a trade empire - anybody can blockade your ass into the 2 western mwed sea areas you have, the sicilians will be at your throat from day1 anyway, and the HRE will nail you if you mess with them. If you expand west by sea you will run into the english and dnaish ships not too mention the muslim factions of north africa that try to domiante mediteranean sea routes and you have open land borders to defend all the time with potential attacks from all sides.
One key way to success in MTW is to secure a homeland area witht he minimum troops (armies) and then go heavy into trade and ships to generate massive monies. Due to the nature of the map the continental european factions ahve it hard as they dont have an "island retreat" they can hold with just one army and a fleet of protecting ships...and this is a MASSIVE drain on early economies (having to support multiple armies). It takes 3-4 years to bild a ship during which time you arent building or repairing military units... the ability to have safe provinces with low military support costs inn which to build "commercial" tech trees is a huge advantage...
for the english this is obvious (protect just wessex or [take and protect just] flanders)
For some of the muslim factions at the "thin side of the map" you have 2 provinces to protect - for the central euro's - most of the time you have to protect every province you have.
The english may only really have wool as their major export - but when they only "have to" support a single army to keep going (especially once wales and scotland are taken) it is a monumental advantage. The trick for the english is making enough money to keep going and get to this tage at the start - the english start can be very hard indeed.
Personally i've never seen a threat from the italians and at every turn have crushed their navy to totally dominate the wool trade. Once the english have fleets in the mdeiteranean - they're unstoppable...getting them there is a different matter.
On expert heres what i do:
Move everything out of anjou and aquitane on year1 and nto normandy (takes 2 years). Move emissary to wales and bride the welsh to get 3 units of longbows immediately (big woot!). BUild spearmaker and spearunit in wessex and jugle troops over enxt 4 years so that:
One army in normandy (small and light but..) one army in wessex (inc the welsh longbows) - by this time you'll have 60 royal knights via princes also.
Storm flanders and hold it (youve given up normandy, aquitane and anjou just for flanders - its worth it but only if you dont loose it!). You now need only protect Northumbria which you will use to take scotland after moving 1 longbow unit and 1 royal knight from flanders to support your spearmen) - crush the scots and leave/move peasants up there whilst returning RKs, LBs and Spears to flanders.
Sit tight and build build build, protecting flanders at all costs whilst marrying into every faction nearby to keep at peace.
Crusade against any enemy of the papal states from WESSEX (dont weaken flanders ever!) and take ireland at your leisure. Keep the danes happy at all times or they a) cost you trade income (they are your nearest and best traders early on) b)their longships are lethal in early periods.
Only thing to watch for is a "Deep Water" attack via the North Atlantic as the muslim factions get deep-water ships first.
(Theres an alternative way where you keep aquitane but this is risky tbh as it stretches you and its very difficult to support for long enough until you cna get a fleet route to it - its income via the wine trade is great though if you can do this)
[This message has been edited by Darkmoor_Dragon (edited 07-12-2002).]
Krypteia
07-12-2002, 17:40
Quote Originally posted by fubi:
the Turks were pretty good (but they are gonna be the first to go when i play, national grudge) and the english seem to e in a good position but i HOPE that no faction will e invincible and that CA have done a good job balancing them all.
only time (or maybe darkmoore dragon) will tell...[/QUOTE]
lol yes the ottomans will be the first to go
after I send in about 20 kataphraktoi units hehe
the janissarys would be one of the most feared units in the game though ,the majority of them were greek and eastern european/balkan babies stolen at birth converted to islam , trained in the arts of war n served the ottomans to destroy their own countries
n fubi
where in wollongong are you???
Darkmoor, it sounds like the English are the equivalent of Shimazu from STW, only have to fight on one front, but struggle to get enough dosh to really expand early on.
So any factions like Hojo in there?
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 22:26
DrNo,
Cannons on the battlefield will really be useless to you (unless in a siege of course). The AI will be smart enough to avoid cannons and resort to flanking. And we the people should be able to outwit artillery.
Emp. Conralius
07-12-2002, 22:28
I am really begining to think that the cav is being overestimated. I predict that the foot soldier will reign suprime in this game. I'de also think Switzerland is gonna be really hard to conquer, since they're so defensive.
Aelfred Magna
07-13-2002, 14:51
Conralius, it seems to me that, like in the AOE series (although I hate to compare the two, I think it's valid in this case) the Cav will be good against regular sword or axe-bearing infantry, but not against polearms (spears, etc.) - by the same token, regular infantry will eat spearmen for breakfast, and archery units will chew 'em all up, as long as they stay out of reach . . . therefore, I don't think any one unit will dominate, and your army will hafta be balanced.
In truth, I dunno . . . at least I HOPE this is how it will work, as it's much more realistic this way.
Emp. Conralius
07-13-2002, 19:18
Magna, but when I played a mod for the demo, highly valourous Royal Knights fell prey to my Feaudal Foot Knights (armed with simple broad swords). Like the guy said, in the Ealy era, just mobs of people in the fray, High Era- Knights rule the field, and in the Late Era- gunpowder changes everything. I'de think that most heavy infantry can be relied on to vanquish most forms of heavy cav with relative ease. Such as Feadal Foot Knights, Jannisary Heavy Infantry, Chivalric Foot Knights, Byzantine Infantry, etc...
Well I made a mod with Byzantine Infantry. They are great, but not that great, they got beaten by the Royal Ghulams badly. But that was the only unit that could touch them in the mod.
Darkmoor_Dragon
07-13-2002, 21:15
Quote Originally posted by DrNo:
Darkmoor, it sounds like the English are the equivalent of Shimazu from STW, only have to fight on one front, but struggle to get enough dosh to really expand early on.
So any factions like Hojo in there?[/QUOTE]
That's quite a good comparison actually DrNo - although it's also a reflection on my own personal mode of play don't forget.
Hojo: Well the difference is really that any big money-maker needs trade, not just land, and farmland improvements are tied to other improvements so you just cant simply sit on huge lots of great farmland and build a big army - this doesnt work in MTW.
Closest I can think of would be Byzantium and Eygpt though - who "historically" always start with a developed and rich main province (lots of trade potential, good farmland and a good developed castle)
Other element with the english though is that their GLorious acheivements force them to fight for lands in modern france and some mediteranean islands and some crusader provinces - so you can only "turlteup" for some period of time.
That's what i like about MTW - it helps "force" the palyer (and AI) into being somewhat aggressive to "win".
Emp. Conralius
07-13-2002, 23:19
And when I said infantry will reign supreme, I also meant polearms.
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