Backroom Book Club (July) - "7000 Days in Siberia"

[Lemur]

Per lady Prole's request, I am posting a run-off poll for every book from the initial list that garnered four or more votes. Have at it, lads! The options are:

Guns, Germs, and Steel (The Fates of Human Societies) (http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0393317552)

Explaining what William McNeill called The Rise of the West has become the central problem in the study of global history. In Guns, Germs, and Steel Jared Diamond presents the biologist's answer: geography, demography, and ecological happenstance. Diamond evenhandedly reviews human history on every continent since the Ice Age at a rate that emphasizes only the broadest movements of peoples and ideas. Yet his survey is binocular: one eye has the rather distant vision of the evolutionary biologist, while the other eye--and his heart--belongs to the people of New Guinea, where he has done field work for more than 30 years.

Maus : A Survivor's Tale : My Father Bleeds History/Here My Troubles Began (http://www.amazon.com/Maus-Survivors-Father-History-Troubles/dp/0679748407/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-8078293-5638423?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182805081&sr=1-2)

Art Spiegelman's "Maus: A Survivor's Tale" is a unique and unforgettable work of literature. This two-volume set of book-length comics (or "graphic novels," if you prefer) tells the story of the narrator, Artie, and his father Vladek, a Holocaust survivor. "Maus" is thus an important example of both Holocaust literature and of the graphic novel. The two volumes of "Maus" are subtitled "My Father Bleeds History" and "And Here My Troubles Began"; they should be read together to get the biggest impact.

Artie is a comic book artist who is trying to create art that is meaningful, not just commercial. As the two volumes of "Maus" unfold, he gradually learns the full story of his father's history as a Jewish survivor of the World War II Holocaust. There is a complex "book within the book" motif, since the main character is actually writing the book that we are reading. This self-referentiality also allows Spiegelman to get in some satiric material.

The distinguishing conceit of "Maus" involves depicting the books' humanoid characters as having animal heads. All the Jews have mice heads, the Germans are cats, the Americans dogs, etc. It is a visually provocative device, although not without problematic aspects. To his credit, Spiegelman addresses some of the ambiguities of this visual device in the course of the 2 volumes. For example, Artie's wife, a Frenchwoman who converted to Judaism, wonders what kind of animal head she should have in the comic.

"Maus" contains some stunning visual touches, as well as some truly painful and thought-provoking dialogue. Vladek is one of the most extraordinary characters in 20th century literature. As grim as the two books' subject matter is, there are some moments of humor and warmth. Overall, "Maus" is a profound reflection on family ties, history, memory, and the role of the artist in society.

Seven Thousand Days in Siberia (http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Thousand-Siberia-Karlo-Stajner/dp/0374261261/ref=sr_1_4/002-8078293-5638423?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182804871&sr=1-4)

Written with calm courage in a matter-of-fact style, this searing diary is one of the fullest, most shocking accounts yet of the Soviet prison-camp system. Rewarded for his work as a communist in his native Austria and in Yugoslavia, Stajner was sent to the U.S.S.R. to run a print shop in 1932. Four years later, the victim of a Stalinist purge, he was sentenced to an initial 10 years in Siberian prisons, then to another 10. His journal recreates the regimentation, irrationality, thought control and sadism of the Gulag system. The reader learns of nuns murdered by NKVD soldiers, harems of women prisoners, executions committed in assembly line fashion, the mass slaughter that accompanied Soviet collectivization of farming. Now living in Yugoslavia, Stajner believes his ordeal was the fault of Stalinism and not of true socialism. His remarkable firsthand account stands as a condemnation of an unfree society.

[Marshal Murat]

We can vote again! Hip-horray!
I guess?:inquisitive:

[Don Corleone]

I hate voting european style with runoffs. Whichever one got the most votes in the first election should win, even if it wasn't my choice.

Anyway, I revoted my choice (which apparently was at least a finalist).

[KukriKhan]

Maus. One hopes miz prole arrives safely in sin city.

If this poll goes 50-50, I suggest Proletariat flip an actual coin, we trust her report of the result, and 'go' with whatever selection is made. I will certainly abide the will of the backroom.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Come on, 7000 days.

And how did I get roped into being part of the BBC?! It's all a trap, I say!

Crazed Rabbit

[Ser Clegane]

Voted for GG&S - ordered that one a while ago and did not manage to read it yet.
Perhaps with some "peer pressure" I will finally get around :whip:

[Fragony]

Hasn't just about everyone read MAUS already, I say 7000 days in Siberia and I don't even like Bradd Pitt.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Hasn't just about everyone read MAUS already, I say 7000 days in Siberia and I don't even like Bradd Pitt.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Seven Years in Tibet?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I've perused Maus but I want to fully read all three. Voted Maus, though.

[Fragony]

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Seven Years in Tibet?

Nice catch.

Anyways, Houellebeque's newest sucks.

[KukriKhan]

So, "Siberia" it is then, yes? I've ordered it 'used' through Amazon.com's 'marketplace' feature. Should have it next week. Total cost, with shipping: $9.44. Much better than the $30 list price.

Siberia. Brrrrr (shiver). Should make good reading on hot July days. :)

[Fragony]

Kewl, that one and GGS were the only ones I haven't read already, and GGS doesn't sound like my thing anyway. Can we start nominating for next month? Two books I think everyone can (and should) enjoy.

Wild Swans, three daughter of China: Yu Chang
100 years of solitude: Gabriel Garcia Marques

Both books describes the life of three generations in very different parts of the world, and both are truly epic.

[Don Corleone]

So, "Siberia" it is then, yes? I've ordered it 'used' through Amazon.com's 'marketplace' feature. Should have it next week. Total cost, with shipping: $9.44. Much better than the $30 list price.

Siberia. Brrrrr (shiver). Should make good reading on hot July days. :)

Mine's on it's way too.

[Csargo]

I guess I won't be in the club this month.

[Husar]

I'm actually a bit lower on money than I thought, I had to find out, so I don't know yet, also have some exams in two weeks.:no:
But I'll see what I can do, after all I even voted for that book.

[Proletariat]

Mine's on it's way too.

You guys must've snagged all the cheap ones. 19$ with shipping here, but it looks like it's really gonna be worth it.

[KukriKhan]

Welcome back, Prolie. Did you break the bank at Circus-Circus, or have mercy on them?

Me, I only go to Vegas to visit my money (the stuff I left there years ago). :)

[Proletariat]

For once in my life I did pretty well gambling. Went up about two grand playing craps, which basically means I broke even for most of the travel, lodging and food, and was also able to splurge on some unnecessary stuff in Caesar's Forum.
All in all a great weekend. :beam:

[Hosakawa Tito]

Glad you had fun in Sin City Prole, especially on their dime. I just ordered a used title from Amazon for $9.75 .

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I've ordered mine from an Amazon.co.uk markeplace seller, nine quid.

[Lemur]

I was so smug, I figured I could find it somewhere in the Southeastern Wisconsin library system. Wrongo. It's gonna set me back $13, all told. This depressing tale of tragic loss and pain had better be a darn good summer read!

[KukriKhan]

I was so smug, I figured I could find it somewhere in the Southeastern Wisconsin library system. Wrongo. It's gonna set me back $13, all told. This depressing tale of tragic loss and pain had better be a darn good summer read!

Unbelieveable. Wisconsin is held in very high repute among librarians here (I dated several back in the old days). Sorry, man.

But hey, look at the bright side, BKS, a student, is forking over almost 20$ - if I got the currency conversion right.

[Sarmatian]

You know guys, I was just kidding, the book is nothing special... :laugh4:

After spending so much money, I guess I am going to be :whip: :smash: :pirate2: :hmg: :smg: :duel: :viking: if you don't like it.

[Papewaio]

Apparently Borders here doesn't have it in stock, nor is it even listed.

They do however have 7000 years of Jewelry :wall: I'll just walk er mince my way out of this thread until I can find a real bookstore.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Haha! My library system has it! Western Washington libraries for the win!

:beam:

CR

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

But hey, look at the bright side, BKS, a student, is forking over almost 20$ - if I got the currency conversion right.

It's not too bad, relatively. The standard price for a new paperback in the UK is eight pounds.

[Louis VI the Fat]

€ 7,60 (http://www.amazon.fr/7000-jours-Sib%C3%A9rie-Karlo-Stajner/dp/2070266222) :eyebrows:

(= $ 10.30, £ 5.15)

[Lemur]

I'm certainly going to check online with my library system before I vote next time. How dare someone's ultimate tale of suffering and hardship cost me money?

[Proletariat]

Sheesh, have to wait until the 12th at the earliest. Think I paid the most in the thread for the longest wait. :P

[Hosakawa Tito]

My earliest delivery date is also the 12th thru the 26th. You might not finish this one last after all.:turtle:

[Papewaio]

€ 7,60 (http://www.amazon.fr/7000-jours-Sib%C3%A9rie-Karlo-Stajner/dp/2070266222) :eyebrows:

(= $ 10.30, £ 5.15)

Cliff notes don't count... but I suppose that is more reading the some Profs are prepared to do. :laugh4:

[Fragony]

Gah can't find it and ordering it from my local bookstore costs me 40 euro. Not going to read a translation, hate that.

[Fragony]

Gah originally in Russian :beam:

Dutch should do fine if I can find the bloody thing :book:

[Marshal Murat]

I've got it, and am reading it currently.
Chilling when coupled with the 'Militarisation of the Police' on Youtube.

[KukriKhan]

My copy arrived yesterday. I'll wait to open it up until a few more of us have it in-hand.

I know that book-clubs exist (have seen references to them on TV) but don't really know how they work/are run.

Do we all just read up to some point, then engage in general conversation about what we've read? Does someone lead a discussion? Do we need to pick a leader (Proletariat)?

I guess I should have asked these question before. Sorry.

[Proletariat]

Let's make a list of who's participating so far. From what I see in the thread so far we have;

Copies on the way or have it
Kukri
Don C
Hosakawa
BKS
Crazed Rabbit
Marshall Murat
Lemur

Mabies
Fragony
Louis (unless he just mentioned the price in France to thumb his nose at us capitolists swines being ripped off at the 'market place')
Ichigo
BG

Did I miss anyone?

Also, what happened to Banquo? We're not reading the philistinist comic book anymore, so I demand his involvement!

I'd say once half the group or so has the book, as each one gets through a chapter or two (haven't seen the book, so I don't know if there are even chapters, but you get the idea), we could all do a 'first impression' post. As we get further we could have a 'meat & potatoes' phase, and finally a conclusion chat. I know we all have some combination of work, social life, video games, etc, so let's try and respect each other's pace with regard to spoilers and so forth.

I've only been in one book club before, and it lasted for about two hours when I realized we're discussing Desperate Housewives more heartily than Anna Karenina.

Does this sound alright? Anything big I'm missing?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Sounds good to me Prole. How many pages & chapters do we have Kukri?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Also, what happened to Banquo? We're not reading the philistinist comic book anymore, so I demand his involvement!

Ooops. I've been trying to find or order a copy and not having much luck so far, so I was keeping my head down. I'd better make more strenuous efforts. :embarassed:

Your plan for discussion looks fine, and I'll happily go along with that once I've got the book.

:bow:

[Csargo]

$10 used on amazon : /

[Proletariat]

Ooops. I've been trying to find or order a copy and not having much luck so far, so I was keeping my head down. I'd better make more strenuous efforts. :embarassed:

Your plan for discussion looks fine, and I'll happily go along with that once I've got the book.

:bow:

Woohoo! Sounds like another maybe. If all else fails, maybe someone can find that link that was posted about that French intellectual who postulated that it was incredibly unnecessary to have actually read a book you're having an in-depth conversation about. :beam:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Got my copy, had to pay two bucks in library late fees so my overall fee level went low enough that they'd let me check out a book. :furious3:


Woohoo! Sounds like another maybe. If all else fails, maybe someone can find that link that was posted about that French intellectual who postulated that it was incredibly unnecessary to have actually read a book you're having an in-depth conversation about.


Well it's about Stalin and the Soviet Union and Gulags. Just throw in some opinions about things that may not exist while discussing a history of those topics (Stalin sent many people to the gulags. He was especially cruel against the dark haired people with freckles, and it is outrageous that noone ever apologized for Stalin making them wear different sized boots!) and you're golden.

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

If all else fails, maybe someone can find that link that was posted about that French intellectual who postulated that it was incredibly unnecessary to have actually read a book you're having an in-depth conversation about. :beam: Oh my God. It's been forty years and still you people do not understand post-modernism. :no:

No book is a book upon itself. It is an assembled text, made out of subelements of a larger discourse. And it is this discourse that needs to be the focus of our reading, not the book itself. You need to step outside of the book to fully understand it. The more you read of the book, the more you become entangled into the discourse it is a projection of. This discourse is the product of the linguistic and other meaning-making resources of the powerful in a particular culture. Hence language, culture, and thought are one and the same. By becoming part of it, adopting its language, you support and continuate it, the slave becoming its own master. :wall:

Why do you hate freedom?

[Hosakawa Tito]

Oh my God. It's been forty years and still you people do not understand post-modernism. :no:

No book is a book upon itself. It is an assembled text, made out of subelements of a larger discourse. And it is this discourse that needs to be the focus of our reading, not the book itself. You need to step outside of the book to fully understand it. The more you read of the book, the more you become entangled into the discourse it is a projection of. This discourse is the product of the linguistic and other meaning-making resources of the powerful in a particular culture. Hence language, culture, and thought are one and the same. By becoming part of it, adopting its language, you support and continuate it, the slave becoming its own master. :wall:

Why do you hate freedom?

French translation - If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bull ****.~;) The :painting: of the deal.:laugh4:

[KukriKhan]

Sounds good to me Prole. How many pages & chapters do we have Kukri?

15 pages of notes, intro & forward; 400 pages of text, subdivided into 11 chapters of (on average) 8 sub-chapters each. Looking just at the structure of the piece, we could probably read between 50-100 pages in a sitting, when we'd hit a natural break in the action, to pause for discussion.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Why do you hate freedom?

Hey, we're criticizing the French here. That means we love freedom. What you want to ask is "Why are you all a bunch of uncultured rednecks?"

CR

[Proletariat]

No book is a book upon itself. It is an assembled text, made out of subelements of a larger discourse. And it is this discourse that needs to be the focus of our reading, not the book itself. You need to step outside of the book to fully understand it. The more you read of the book, the more you become entangled into the discourse it is a projection of. This discourse is the product of the linguistic and other meaning-making resources of the powerful in a particular culture. Hence language, culture, and thought are one and the same. By becoming part of it, adopting its language, you support and continuate it, the slave becoming its own master. :wall:

Why do you hate freedom?

I absolutely have no idea right now, what I wouldn't give, to be able to go back 6 years and have thought of and shouted this crock to my English 101 professor. Absolutely none.

[KukriKhan]

I absolutely have no idea right now, what I wouldn't give, to be able to go back 6 years and have thought of and shouted this crock to my English 101 professor. Absolutely none.

:laugh4:
Heh, such diatribes were common in the us uni lecture halls of the early 70's. Astonishingly, many profs, taken aback, would begin sputtering some defense of lit, or science or whatever their topic was supposed to be, and chaos would ensue.

The smart ones would blink twice, close their book, and dismiss class for the day. The even smarter, quicker on their feet, ones would incorporate the diatribe into their material, as though it were a planned bit of theatre.

Certainly livened up some pretty droll subjects, back in the day.

[Lemur]

Just got my copy. Now all I need is a beach, a towel, and hours to spare.

[Papewaio]

To engage in the subelements of the larger discourse will require that you vacate the beach and engage the book in a sub-zero element if possible such as the meat locker where Rocky trained. Now get to work sir! :whip:

[Lemur]

Had trouble sleeping, tore through the first seventy pages, and got to thinking, what's the plan? I've never been in a book club before. Do we read the whole thing and talk about it, or read a certain amount, or what? I'm a very fast reader, so if I don't get an answer within 24 hours, I may just sit down and finish it.

By the way, it's very, very good. I know Maus is a masterpiece, but I'm glad this won the poll. I probably would not have read it otherwise.

[Proletariat]

I'm a quick reader too, much quicker than the USPS can bring me a 7oz stack of pages. I'd say give us a first impression Lemur, and anyone else who's knocked off a 100 pages or so, but of course, give enough respect to those who are still at the mercy of the mail men (easy on the spoilers).

For first impressions, I'm kind of thinking of something like teaser material. 'Those first fifteen pages really sucked, but after that, it gets going and going fast, after that, it's a real page turner but don't read this one while the tv and radio are blasting, it's depthful and immersiveblahblahvblahablagba' kinda thing.

[Proletariat]

I've never been in a book club before.

Think that makes all of us. :beam:

[Lemur]

Okay, my initial impression after the first 120 pages (I read a little more today): This book rocks. It addresses one of the greatest horrors of the 20th century, and it does it with style.

There are a few problems with genocides and mass deaths, especially when you try to address them in a book or movie. One is the problems is scale -- how do you give the impression of X million dead without overwhelming the reader? Seven Thousand Days does it the only way you can, by taking the story of a single person (a tactic also used in One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovitch (http://www.amazon.com/One-Day-Life-Ivan-Denisovich/dp/0374529523/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-2550126-3532658?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184291551&sr=8-1), which narrowed the focus even more, to the single day referenced in the title).

Another problem is how to communicate the atrocity and evil of the events. I hate, hate, hate it when a storyteller interrupts the flow to tell us, "This is bad! These are bad people! This is a bad thing!" (See the entire last scene of Schindler's List to reference this. A perfectly good movie ruined, ruined I say by Liam Neeson sobbing about how his watch could have saved a child. Will somebody please think of the children?) Seven Thousand Days does not make this mistake; the writing is clinical without ever being cold, and utterly devoid of preachiness. The way the lemur sees it, the more horrible and outrageous the event, the less you need to dress it up. Just lay out the facts, and allow me to be mortified in my own time. (For this reason, the lemur's favorite holocaust film will always be Conspiracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/), a film taken from the meeting notes at the Wannsee Conference where the genocide was planned in detail.)

The author does a good job of giving us all of the grisly details without overwhelming us in the process. Definitely a hard balance to maintain, and I respect him as a writer and storyteller for accomplishing it. Stories about atrocities can be neutered if they understate or sanitize events (compare the listless Hotel Rwanda to the terrifying We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will be Killed With Our Families (http://www.amazon.com/Wish-Inform-Tomorrow-Killed-Families/dp/0312243359/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-2550126-3532658?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184291156&sr=8-1) to see what I mean), but they can also be too damn much. It's fascinating to watch an author walk a perfect line between the extremes.

The author also does not burden us with the mini-biography that so many memoirs dump in the first fifty pages, which is a mercy. (You know the kind of book I mean, the one where Guy Who Ate a Live Crocodile spends the first quarter of the book telling you about where he was born, what his sister was like, how he felt about school, and so forth, when all you really want to know is why and how he ate a live crocodile.) This is not to say that he sets himself out as a cipher -- we get a full idea of the man -- but rather that he maintains absolute focus on the issue at hand, which is detailing his years in the guts of the Soviet death machine.

I'm really, really glad this book won the poll. Even if sometimes I can't help but think of that bit from The Onion: Oct. 22, 1933: "Stalin Announces Five-Year `Everybody Dies' Plan. Over 2 Million New Jobs to Be Created in Grave-Digging, Body-Dumping Fields."

Side note: For about a year I maintained a Misanthropic Book Exchange with a co-worker. We would both dig out the most depressing books possible and trade them. We stalemated in (where else?) Africa, with me utterly devastated by King Leopold's Ghost (http://www.amazon.com/King-Leopolds-Ghost-Heroism-Colonial/dp/0618001905/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-2550126-3532658?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184291444&sr=8-2), and him floored by We Wish to Inform You. We declared the contest a draw, with both of the contestants too depressed to continue. I'll have to finish Seven Thousand Days to see if it would have made it into our strange game.

[Fragony]

King Leopold's ghost is a good book, what a naughty fellow he was, you will probably also like this;

http://www.amazon.com/Scramble-Africa-Thomas-Pakenham/dp/0380719991

Anyways, ordered. 35 euro's :no:

[Husar]

The author also does not burden us with the mini-biography that so many memoirs dump in the first fifty pages, which is a mercy. (You know the kind of book I mean, the one where Guy Who Ate a Live Crocodile spends the first quarter of the book telling you about where he was born, what his sister was like, how he felt about school, and so forth, when all you really want to know is why and how he ate a live crocodile.)
:laugh4: :2thumbsup:



Anyways, ordered. 35 euro's :no:
If you can afford a luxury shower and a big TV, you souldn't really cry about 35EUR. ~;)

Now I'm having exams next week and I'm a poor student without a job, I will see whether I can get it after the exams though since the month is almost over by then, maybe I should try to participate next month.:shrug:

[Lemur]

Just thought of something -- the introduction is completely unnecessary, and should be read as an afterword. It adds nothing to the enjoyment of the book, which is much better started with Karl Steiner's words.

I have no idea if this intro exists in other versions of the book, but the English translation begins with a multi-page meditation on meeting with Steiner written (I think) by the translator.

[Fragony]

OThe way the lemur sees it, the more horrible and outrageous the event, the less you need to dress it up. Just lay out the facts, and allow me to be mortified in my own time. (For this reason, the lemur's favorite holocaust film will always be Conspiracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/), a film taken from the meeting notes at the Wannsee Conference where the genocide was planned in detail.)

Have you seen 'Shoah'? It uses nothing more then voices and pictures, and it's fascinating from beginning to end and beginning to end is long. Hated Schindlers list by the way, memorial pornography, The Pianist so much more better. To add a book to your miserylist, 'If this is a man' by Primo Levi has to be the best book I have ever read on this, seems like a perfect fit for your taste.

[Don Corleone]

My copy came last night. I hope to be able to enjoy the discussion and contribute by Sunday.

[Sarmatian]

Very good first impression from Lemur. I had similiar thoughts when I read the book. Talking about everything that has happened in a cold, storytelling manner. You can see that the point of the book isn't to make everyone feel sorry for him or the others ,or further the claims about evil of Stalin or USSR. The guy is telling his story, without giving us to much detail and alowing us to look at the bigger picture...

[Proletariat]

Good lord, that FI by Lemur has me ready to sit in my dark basement, maybe with the soundtrack to Pan's Labyrinth playing, and mow through a couple hundred pages... But the damn thing hasn't showed up yet and it's the 13th.

:sweatdrop:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

My library doesn't have 7000 Days. :shifty:

It does have GG&S which I'm reading now (:2thumbsup:)

[KukriKhan]

... But the damn thing hasn't showed up yet and it's the 13th.

:sweatdrop:

I guess your postman hasn't finished reading it. When you see him, tell him to hurry up! :laugh4:

(BTW, Amazon usually ships with 'Delivery Confirmation' barcode on its label. If you contact their cust svc, they can probably tell you approximately where it is)

I agree with Lemur; the intro/translator note, could have and should have been moved to an 'afterword' vs a forword, in the US edition.

I've gobbled up about 50 pages, and can say: it's an easy read, about nasty stuff. For purposes of story-telling, I can visualize him sitting in a quiet studio with a tape recorder, and just letting loose with whatever pops into his head. I think a timeline-type story will emerge, but for now, he kinda jumps around in the 1930's & 40's with almost random memories. In a word, it's:

conversational.

[Lemur]

Finished it last night. Lots of thoughts, but I guess I'll save them until we have a quorum.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I've finally got me a copy!

* starts reading :book: *

[Proletariat]

Mine arrived yesterday but was way too busy to get cracking. This week is filled with family birthdays, but tonight I plan and gettin-a-going on it.

[Fragony]

Gah 7000 days before I finally get the damn thing. Gonna take another week, probably have to skip this month. Gonna read it though :no:

[Banquo's Ghost]

My nice friend at the second hand bookshop has come through and I have a copy.

Now I have to find the time to read it. :book2:

[KukriKhan]

So, we have at least 5 with the book. Great; I'll dive back in this weekend, and look for some conversation Sunday.

[Proletariat]

Just got started today, on page 70 or so. Fascinating and horrifying so far. Will espouse a little more once I've gotten a bit further

[Marshal Murat]

I finished...
Waiting for discussion.

:book: <---HP7

[Banquo's Ghost]

It appears that I am one of the slower readers here, so perhaps I should kick off some discussion as the rest of you are already far ahead so there is less chance of an inadvertant spoiler.

Bookmark: Stajner’s arrival at Noril’sk.

I must admit to some concerns about style in the early passages, as there was a lot of repetition and jumping around. But the narrative soon gripped me – as Kukri noted, it is very conversational, with a very light touch (if any) from an editor. This becomes a strength as the authenticity of the memoir begins to take hold of one’s imagination.

As a personal note, whenever I read this kind of recollection, I find it very difficult to connect with it – not least because I have never experienced incarceration, let alone such deprivation, but mostly because I am sure would not have the strength to survive. I have much less fear of death than I do of say, the claustrophobia that would strike me in the immensely over-crowded prison the author describes in the early stages. I have actually been inside the Lubyanka (nowadays it’s almost a tourist attraction, though the FSB (successor to the KGB, which succeeded the NKVD) still operates there) and the vividness of Stajner’s description of events there only seventy years gone really unsettles me.

One wonders what would have happened if he had simply admitted to the charge at first, but his indomitable self-belief seems to be his breastplate armour. The simplicity of his language and descriptions are an enormous strength – such as his sparse reporting of his concerns fro his family – which eloquently elicit the deep emotional response in the reader – what must that be like? – rather than trying to describe the indescribable.

We are creatures of our conditioning, and it is hard to read the account of his “hearings” without the resonance of Orwell’s “1984” echoing through each sentence. The sheer futility of protest, the rigid fantasy world of the interrogators, the sheer illogicality must have been utterly terrifying to a man of intellect – and the more so to a man who believed in the socialist ideals that had driven his life to date. I was struck by the numbers of prisoners that still believed in Stalin and the regime, convinced that the mistake was soon to be rectified. In “1984”, Parsons moans “I didn’t even realise I was a Thought-criminal. It was my children who reported me. Very proud of them.” Though he doesn't weep in broken bewilderment, Yegorov strikes me as having the same mind-set - until we find him later in the islands.

The mundane cruelty is also affecting, but so are the small acts of kindness and politeness. The interrogations were not as brutal as one feared – at least, not physically – but certainly mentally and emotionally. The oddity of prisoners with money being able to buy goods – reminiscent of the nobility’s cells of luxury during the French Revolution (less than the “trading up” in debtors' prisons of Victorian London, which were spawned of raw capitalism whereas revolutionary France and Russia should surely have imposed equal miseries?) contrasts strongly with the individual prisoners sharing their meagre purchases with those unable to afford their own. Is this an expression of their own “purer” socialism in practice, or simply humanity? At this stage in the narrative, there are few instances of selfish veniality but one suspects that as conditions worsen, primeval self-preservation may emerge.

The gulf in conditions between the kremlin of the Solovetsk islands and the awful Muksulma was striking – a deliberate attempt to break the spirit, perhaps? Here we first begin to hear euphemisms to hide the truth of murder – being “sent to Sekirnaya Gora”, and their use as threats. I was also struck by the immense dedication to the inexorable logic of madness exhibited by the story of Gould-Verschoyle, the Irishman who had volunteered to fight with republican Spain. The lengths they went to in order to spirit him away to Russia and then imprison him – quite astonishingly insane, but strangely consistent, as an enemy of the people is that wherever his thought-crime occurs. Perhaps it is this slavish adherence to the internal logic of their regime that allows one human to brutalise another with such disregard?

The voyage to Noril’sk is again somewhat understated but truly horrific. How does anyone find the courage to survive such conditions? I’m sure all readers have, as I did, looked at a map to follow that journey. Have you seen where Noril’sk is? There is nothing but it and a short representation of the railway line to Dudinka. A railway to and from nowhere, joined to nothing. The map and the sparse efficiency of Stajner’s descriptions drain the soul as much as the imagining of the landscape he reports. And this is merely reading a book - how could one stand to look upon that landscape after such a journey?

The steppe is an extraordinary experience. I remember standing on the edge of it in Kazakhstan one day, looking away from the southern mountains that begin the rise up to become the Himalaya and towards the north. The great grassy plain that becomes the taiga and then the permafrost over thousands of miles. The immensity is utterly overwhelming - almost beyond comprehension. How awful would it have been to look south through the snows and understand that same lonely immensity?

I am still searching for a revelation that would bring me to understand why a man would stay alive faced with such desolation. But I suspect that Karlo Stajner may yet have an answer for me, though maybe not one I am able to embrace.

[KukriKhan]

One wonders what would have happened if he had simply admitted to the charge at first, but his indomitable self-belief seems to be his breastplate armour. The simplicity of his language and descriptions are an enormous strength – such as his sparse reporting of his concerns fro his family – which eloquently elicit the deep emotional response in the reader – what must that be like? – rather than trying to describe the indescribable.


Expanding on that a bit: As I waded through the time-jumps of the first 40 or so pages, when he spoke of events that occured before his arrest, I remember thinking: "Well, couldn't he see that coming?". I mean his opposing party appartchiks in his workplace, etc.

Reading on, I came to realize the answer is "No, he could not have". Because he was a 'true believer' in the system he was a part of. His failure, if he can be said to have had one, was in not fully comprehending (pre-arrest) all the implications of a dictatorship of the proletariat.

[Marshal Murat]

The style is very sparse in description, and that drew me in. The simple style and lack of overt details lends the reader to imagine and become part of the story, rather than forcing the reader to imagine things in specific light.

7000 Days in Siberia seems to be a foil for Animal Farm and 1984. What happens when you have the extreme loyalist cult, the purges, the deaths, the required cover-ups. The system of fear that pervaded the system. Reading the book, you feel a mixture of pity and fear. Fear that this could happen.

A very good book, along with a cautionary proverb.
I'll wait for more discussion.

[Csargo]

Just a suggestion. Possible we could start giving ideas for next month's book a week or more before the start of the next month? So we could order the book earlier or find it before hand, and have more time to read and discuss the book? Hopefully this will help us avoid people not receiving their book till the middle or later in the month. I would like to here other's opinions as well.

[Fragony]

Well I cancelled the order, takes these gits way too long and 35 euro is way too expensive. Will be in next month :no:

[Duke of Gloucester]

Mine's arrived, but I think I am way behind everyone else and can't see myself finishing it before the middle of August. Agreed about choosing next months.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Oh my God. It's been forty years and still you people do not understand post-modernism. :no:

No book is a book upon itself. It is an assembled text, made out of subelements of a larger discourse. And it is this discourse that needs to be the focus of our reading, not the book itself. You need to step outside of the book to fully understand it. The more you read of the book, the more you become entangled into the discourse it is a projection of. This discourse is the product of the linguistic and other meaning-making resources of the powerful in a particular culture. Hence language, culture, and thought are one and the same. By becoming part of it, adopting its language, you support and continuate it, the slave becoming its own master. :wall:

Why do you hate freedom?

I thought il n'y a pas de'hors text.
~:confused:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Mine's arrived, but I think I am way behind everyone else and can't see myself finishing it before the middle of August. Agreed about choosing next months.

I shouldn't worry. Whilst there are insomniac speed-reading Lemurs in these woods, there are also Ghosts cursed with a stack of parallel reading and deadlines.

I don't think it is a good idea for everyone to keep quiet until everyone else has read the book. Surely, the idea of book clubs is to discuss impressions and ideas as we go. Some readers will have forgotten what they wanted to say by the time others have finished.

The problem of spoilers is much reduced with non-fiction. The only way round this is to agree a set chapter to read by a set time and then open discussion. I suspect this approach is too constraining for our book club - as opposed to the normal type which would meet once a week for the chat.

So for heaven's sake, someone say something - otherwise Louis will be lampooning me even more mercilessly!

[Shahed]

Hey guys, what's the deal here ?
We select one book and everyone reads it and posts reviews ?

[Fragony]

uh-huh :yes:

Oh and Lemur, made a little mistake, memoirs of a boy soldier is not fictional, was confusing it with 'What is the what' :shame:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm still reading. I met this girl and it's been rather time-consuming so I haven't been posting much lately.

It is a good book, a fascinating account of the horrors of totalitarianism. It's interesting to read it so shortly after I read Maus, an account of the Holocaust and Mausschwitz (sic). What's the Gulag other than a mixture between Kafkaesque bureaucracy and a Nazi-concentration camp? The similarities are striking in many respects.

That's it for now.

No, wait. Was anybody as shocked and surprised as I was to read how many prisoners actually believed, still believed, in socialism (/communism), even once inside the gulag?

[Proletariat]

No, wait. Was anybody as shocked and surprised as I was to read how many prisoners actually believed, still believed, in socialism (/communism), even once inside the gulag?

Absolutely. Darkly contrasted with the tales of gulag lumber workers chopping their own fingers off and sending them off to England along with the wood to send a grisly warning to their English co-proletariats.

(Anyone not still reading, or who's ready to start the next months book poll feel free, I know Ichi had some interest. I got Vampire Bloodlines, some real life stuff, and work robbing me of precious book reading time, so feel free to get the next ball rolling.)