KotR Imperial Diet IV [Archive] - Page 2

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 19:50

Smiling ruefully back at Jan

I'll be sure to have my dog wipe it's arse on the proposal.

Taking a more considered approach to his next sentence

Do you really have such a problem with me ensuring in such a desperate situation that those troops could never threaten the Reich again?

I could probably understand you point of view if I had exterminated the population of Budapest after I retook it, or even sacked it. For the record I did neither but simply reoccupied it.

As for you going all La La over a few Hungarian's being killed, then perhaps you can swing yourself by the Hungarian capital and have tea with the King there and suggest he doesn't come invading the %$^&ing Reich!!

If you can get him to agree with that then we all just dandy....you BIG DANDY.

Looking down at a report Arnold continues

Ohh, will you look at that everyone.

Arnold waves a piece of paper in on of his Black Mail fists

The Imperial spy Ermolt is reporting ANOTHER Hungarian armyu is threatening Austria's borders AGAIN!!

Are you truly that naive Jan??

TevashSzat

07-25-2007, 19:54

As I repeat again, do not ignore my proposal simply because there is no way that the Kaiser would be forced to step down, but let it serve as a place of discussion. I have little hope that he will be forced to step down, but I still wish for this to occur so we can get the facts straight about his ascendancy. Do it if you will for the complacency of Swabia. Perhaps if a suitable discussion occurs, then Hans and Wolfgang may be able to accept the new rule.

I am sure that everyone does not wish for half of Swabia ready to go against any proposal of the Kaiser which would amount to a very frustrating reign. Am I right?

Stig

07-25-2007, 19:58

But what arguments can you bring against Siegfried?
Surely you have seen Kaiser Jobst's will, he did appoint him Heir. I agree it is very strange, I mean if you choose a Kastillien, then why Siegfried? But we have to live with it, I'm sure my little brother has everything to become a good emperor, tho I think he might need some guidance, he's still young.

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 19:58

I second edict 11.2.

For the sake of complete loyalty and to ensure no room for "interpretation" or lingering doubt I believe this process to be necessary. I am therefore in favour of an expedited investigation.

Arnold sits to being writing

Raising his heads at Ansehelm's words Arnold continues

The very points you talk about are what need to be entirely confirmed Ansehelm.

There can be no debate. Because there is, then therefore I believe we should conduct this review as soon as possible.

Privateerkev

07-25-2007, 19:59

Jan turns to Arnold

My dear good Duke,

If your having trouble with being attacked, then maybe we should look at why we have put ourselves in such indefensible situations. We do quite fine in the Outremer without murdering our prisoners.

Jan turns to Scherer

My Duke,

The Kaiser is God's chosen leader for the Reich. There is nothing more to discuss. It is God that chooses our Kaiser. Emperor Siegfried is our Kaiser. People need to learn to live with it. I will not support an edict that debates that which can not be debated.

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:03

I know they have to be confirmed Arnold, but have you read the last letter written by our last emperor?

Stuperman

07-25-2007, 20:03

I will also second Edict 11.2.

It seems to me that any Kaiser who can't control members of his own house...Gerhard glares at Jan...and was appointed under such suspect conditions should ensure he has the formal support of all the houses.

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:06

I propose Edict 11.3:
This Edict will be a complete copy of Edict 10.4
An expeditionary force will march on Moscow, via Russian - not Polish - provinces (Riga, Novogorod etc). It must engage any enemy field armies it meets along the way, but only besiege Moscow. It will consist of a single stack and will not be reinforced except from locally recruited mercenaries. Moscow will be sacked and abandoned, although no buildings will be destroyed.

The Expeditionary Force is finished, Thorn is safe, and little else is needed. The Crusade can always be asked to return since it's not an official one. Thorn is secured, there's no reason why this mission can not begin, it will harm no-one but the people taking part, and they are willing to give their lives to take Moscow.

Privateerkev

07-25-2007, 20:08

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 20:11

Laughing at Jan, Arnold voice begins calm and end like ice.

Rail all you want.

The Duke of three houses have spoken Jan.

The legislation is passed!!! It will be voted on, AS IS LAW IN THIS LAND!!

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:14

Stop playing Arnold, if it is passed it still needs to get through the votes.
I will gladly bring up arguments in support, AND against my little brother once the leaders of the 5 houses come together to sit around a big round table.

And don't forget to bring your Dread knight, my men can learn something from him

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 20:21

Casting a serious gaze at Ansehelm

Ansehelm, your cousin is in danger of causing much damage to your own cause. I have spoken to you about your Russian Crusade....if your cousin continues to insult me or provoke me without reason then I will need to apply pressure.

I'm sure you can understand.

Having one's own HOUSE in order is vital for any good Steward or Duke.

I have learnt that from many men greater than me.

Sigismund and Lord Zirn are my vassals and they are treated with dignity and respect. Where pure violence fails real power can elicited even great results.

If the edict is passed we will sit and conduct our review. Outremer is not a house but a special status accorded to the work of Sailer and for good reason.

The Dread Knight Bane is conducting work on my behalf. I'm more than happy to meet with you to discuss your mission and tactic going to Russia. Bane could be more than useful on many points we would need to clarify.

AS I mentioned I did spend some of my childhood there and I still have many contacts through the merchant guilds.

Stuperman

07-25-2007, 20:26

Jan looks at Duke Gerhard

Control me my dear Duke?

There was nothing to control. It was I who was attacked by another member of this Diet. And it was I who was hunted down near my home in Outremer. All I have done is protect myself. Why do you fight God's will? God chose the Kaiser. Kaiser Jobst saw that which is why he gave Emperor Siegfried preferential treatment. Do you think it was coincidence that Kaiser Jobst picked Kaiser Siegfried to accompany him with the Imperial Army? Everyone needs to wake up and see what is in front of them.

Control you mouth perhaps, as a junior member of the Diet you are rather quick to offer your opinion, especailly to people who neither want or need it. You constantly question men with years more expierence and significantly more intelect, over thier actions while turning a blind eye to the actions of your own household. Perhaps when you stop employing a wet nurse people will take you more seriously.

As for 'gods will'...Gerhard pauses and spits on the floor...If god's will includes taking my son, cursing my whole family, and undoing the work we've done in Outremer to spread his word, I want nothing to do with it. I understand the global political implacations of failing to show proper respect for the church, but personally want none of it.

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:27

I know control of one's own house is important, but you know us Franconians, fightfull eey? And that's the problem, it's hard to control a Franconian, especially if you also have to look at world politics.

Anyway, when I proposed Edict11.3 I ofcourse forgot to mention that Kaiser Jobst asked for it to continue in his last written letter. And ofcourse that it was originally made up by Kaiser Henry.

And personally I see the Outremer as a House, afterall it's a pretty important part of our empire.

econ21

07-25-2007, 20:34

Diet Speaker: I believe Edict 11.2 should be recast as a Charter Amendment. Having the Dukes elect the Head of State would be a major change to our constitution and should require a 2/3 majority of the Diet to pass.

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:34

Actually I have an addition to make to Edict11.3

Edict 11.3:This Edict will be a complete copy of Edict 10.4
An expeditionary force will march on Moscow, via Russian - not Polish - provinces (Riga, Novogorod etc). It must engage any enemy field armies it meets along the way, but only besiege Moscow. It will consist of a single stack and will not be reinforced except from locally recruited mercenaries. Moscow will be sacked and abandoned, although no buildings will be destroyed.
Next to that this Edict will continue through Diet Sessions and even though Moscow might not have been taken by 1280 the crusade will go on till it has been taken.

Am I getting old?

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:36

Actually Herr Speaker there will be no vote if the Heads of the 5 Houses agree that this is not needed.

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 20:37

I propose the following edicts.

(Personal)

Edict 11.4

A suitable bride will be sought out for Duke Arnold to ensure the ancestral house of Austria and the structure of the Reich remain as designed by out forefathers.

Duke Arnold has the right of refusal on any proposals.

(Ducal Edict)

Edict 11.5

The Hungarian Capital of Bran will be taken by Austrian forces and be lead by a general of House Austria.

GeneralHankerchief

07-25-2007, 20:39

Conrad Salier:

Duke Arnold, Edict 11.1 is an Outremer edict, not a personal one, and thus is proposed with the required amount of seconders.

Privateerkev

07-25-2007, 20:39

Control you mouth perhaps, as a junior member of the Diet you are rather quick to offer your opinion, especailly to people who neither want or need it. You constantly question men with years more expierence and significantly more intelect, over thier actions while turning a blind eye to the actions of your own household. Perhaps when you stop employing a wet nurse people will take you more seriously.

My dear duke,

You only show your own ignorance to the situation. I am thirty years of age. I have survived one crusade and, god willing, will embark on another. I have survived repeated attempts from another Duke here to kill me. I am the crusader count of Edessa. I have more than earned my place to speak at this Diet. You just happen to not agree with my words. And that is your right. But, that does not mean I will let you silence me with attempts at paternalism and peer pressure.

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:43

I second both Edict 11.4 and Edict 11.5.
11.4 is needed to let the house of Austria survive, it's important that Arnold gets married.
As for 11.5 taking Bran will mean that we will be able to hold back the Hungarians for some time, taking their capital. Though I need to say, if it gets difficult to defend we might think of deserting it and letting it turn rebel. It will be an outpost deep into enemy territory, I'm sure Duke Arnold can hold onto it, but we've seen what we had to do for Thorn, and Austria does not have 5 generals to defend it, it has Duke Arnold and Sigismund, and that's it.

TinCow

07-25-2007, 20:47

Privateerkev

07-25-2007, 20:47

I do not second 11.4 because I am not willing to subject a poor woman to such a cruel fate.

GeneralHankerchief

07-25-2007, 20:50

For the record, King Salier, Outremer does not have the privilege of being able to propose House edicts as the Ducal Houses do. Therefore Edict 11.1 counts as your personal Edict and it must be seconded openly in the Diet. While the open seconding is really a minor matter, given that the Edict has support already, the fact that it is a personal edict rather than some free Outremer edict, is important.

With all due respect, I believe that it is up to Kaiser Siegfried to decide.

Do you see what is occuring, Dear Electors? Even now, Count Steffin wishes to take as much power away from those of us who have dedicated our lives to keep the Horse Lords at bay and stay away from our families back in Europe. Continue to alienate your Electors, Lothar, and you will pay.

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 20:50

I second edict 11.3.

Bowing to Ansehelm

Apologies to King Sailer, but it must be freely seconded as Lothar mentions.

Ansehelm, the amendments of this Reich clearly state there are four houses and that Outremer is not a House. Outremer is set number of provinces with a specific mandate. Even King Sailer can confirm that.

Jan, you maybe thirty but no one can tell. Now you go and cast dispersion on my potential wife. Is there no end to your insults?

Can you for once let a superior have the last word?

Stig

07-25-2007, 20:54

I know The Outremer is not a House Duke Arnold, but as you very well know it is an important part of our empire, even the un-pious me agree that it needs support, the same support the Houses recieve, as it will have a hard task to face.

Horse Lords for example, I think that even Bane will think twice about going to war against them.

Stuperman

07-25-2007, 20:57

My dear duke,

You only show your own ignorance to the situation. I am thirty years of age. I have survived one crusade and, god willing, will embark on another. I have survived repeated attempts from another Duke here to kill me. I am the crusader count of Edessa. I have more than earned my place to speak at this Diet. You just happen to not agree with my words. And that is your right. But, that does not mean I will let you silence me with attempts at paternalism and peer pressure.

Speak at the diet, yes, but openly critisize A military superior is something that you have NOT earned. Especailly if it is for executing prisioners just as your fellow Franconia Ansehelm has done.

GeneralHankerchief

07-25-2007, 21:00

Conrad Salier:

I second Edict 11.3.

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 21:00

I somewhat agree with your comments about Outremer Ansehelm.

You must know that any man under my command will go to war, when and where I require...

...Horse Lords or not, destruction will follow where ever I tread!!

With that statement Arnold's retinue enters the Diet from the Austria chambers.

Standing behind the Duke the three men are without emotion or movement.

Stig

07-25-2007, 21:01

Since Edict 11.1 is in need of support I will second it.
Though I do advise King Salier to also look at the House Lords, beating them is the first priority as it seems.

TinCow

07-25-2007, 21:02

It is most certainly not up to Kaiser Siegfried, for there is no rule to dispute. The law is very clear on this matter;

Charter Ammendment 5.2: Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.

The King of Outremer is not a Duke and Outremer is not a Ducal House. There is no possible way that this legislation can be interpreted to give Outremer its own votes. You accuse me of taking away power, but it is in fact you who is attempting to sieze power that is not due you. You are still a member of the House of Bavaria and you have access to the Bavarian House Edicts if you wish to use them. By attempting to summarily create Outremer Edicts as well, you are elevating your own legislative rights above even the Dukes!

As for threatening me, King Salier, I find that most amusing. Do not underestimate me, my Bavarian friend, for I can make life most unpleasant for you.

GeneralHankerchief

07-25-2007, 21:05

Conrad Salier:

Only if you are elected Chancellor, which currently does not seem to be the case. Good day.

TinCow

07-25-2007, 21:07

*Lothar leans over to whisper in the ear of a retainer. They both look at King Salier and start to laugh.*

Privateerkev

07-25-2007, 21:11

Jan, you maybe thirty but no one can tell. Now you go and cast dispersion on my potential wife. Is there no end to your insults?

Can you for once let a superior have the last word?

Last word? I thought this was a forum of free debate. But I see that only is true if the Duke's like what you say... I never casted dispersions on your potential wife. Only on you. And I dare say you have earned it. May I remind you that I saved your life Duke Arnold. Funny that your so against the concept of chivalry when it is the only reason you are with us...

And Duke Gerhard, the Kaiser himself has protected my right to talk about Arnold's....actions. He just commanded me to put it in an edict if I feel so strongly about it. And a CA is being written as we speak. I am well aware of Ansehelm's actions which is why I am skeptical of allowing him to go to Russia. I feel it would only condemn those poor Russians and Poles to death. Now, if he would be open to supporting my CA, I might have second thoughts...

Cecil XIX

07-25-2007, 21:22

I second Edicts 11.4 and 11.5.

I also have a question about Edict 11.2. Specifically, I want to know if the contents of this discussion will be made available to the Diet, and if the vote in question will involve all electors, or just those five you participated in the talks.

Stuperman

07-25-2007, 21:27

I feel it would only condemn those poor Russians and Poles to death. Now, if he would be open to supporting my CA, I might have second thoughts...

POOR RUSSIANS AND POLES!??!?!?!?

Now I understand, you are completely insane.

I would also like to second Edict 11.1, 11.3, 11.4, and 11.5

Privateerkev

07-25-2007, 21:29

Insane? I just care about their souls. They are humans. While they stand against Ansehelm, they should die. But, if they were to lay down their arms, they should be given mercy. Is that insanity? I say it is humanity.

GeneralHankerchief

07-25-2007, 21:31

Conrad Salier:

In order to prove to the Diet that my insistence that Outremer Edicts are NOT a power grab, but are in fact, legal, allow me to present the following information.

First, this is Lothar's statement regarding me:

You accuse me of taking away power, but it is in fact you who is attempting to sieze power that is not due you. You are still a member of the House of Bavaria and you have access to the Bavarian House Edicts if you wish to use them. By attempting to summarily create Outremer Edicts as well, you are elevating your own legislative rights above even the Dukes!

However, for the duration of my appointment, I am most obviously NOT a member of the House of Bavaria, as indicated by this portion of the Charter of Outremer below:

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward).

Therefore, Lothar is obviously trying to freeze me out of the decision-making, attempting to make me unable to contribute to House Edicts in any form, shape, etc. It is this portion of the Charter that is my argument. It is this portion of the Charter that clearly indicates that I cannot take part in any official Bavarian discussion, thus regrettably rendering me unable to second any proposed House Edicts in their own personal discussion chambers.

Stuperman

07-25-2007, 21:33

I'd say the constant sieges of thorn over the last 50 years show that the russians and poles have little intension of laying doen thier arms.

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 21:33

I tell you what von Hamburg, why don't you take your little bow tied, pink suit of armour and buff it up so you look like a big mirror.

Then take yourself out to those horse lords, drop you breaches and show the world that the sun really does shine out of your *&s!!

How about that for an idea you big fairy??!!

You'll look really pretty you know. Maybe one of your fudge packing colleagues can go with you an paint a nice big picture of you doing this. You know...for historical reasons.

You can sit down with the Khan, who'll be obviously dazzled nearly blind by the rays of light bursting out of your butt and decide that you've got one hell of an idea acting like you are.

How about you get that drafted up with that nice flowery hand writing you have!!??

As the the Duke finally finishes his monologue the entire Austrian contingent is barely containing their composure at the visual.

GeneralHankerchief

07-25-2007, 21:38

Conrad Salier:

Duke Arnold, if I second 11.4, will you promise to take your blustering elsewhere? This is growing tiresome especially considering I had thought this conflict resolved.

Stuperman

07-25-2007, 21:41

Getting back to real business, I'd like to announce that Lothar Steffen has officially been named the Commander of the BHA, He has also been named Hier to the title of Duke of Bavaria.

Stig

07-25-2007, 21:42

For that I wish to congratulate Lothar, I know that often we do not agree, but something like this deserves a congratulation.

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 21:45

Christ Sailer what do you want me to do?

Your Crusader Count is flying in the face of all feudal authority. I don't see where I have to do anything but ask him to apologies for the entire thing and have just about ever senior member of the Reich agree with that request.

Second or don't second as you wish King Sailer, I'm not prepared to negotiate about his behaviour considering it's been totally disrespectful since the very beginning.

GeneralHankerchief

07-25-2007, 21:46

Conrad Salier:

You could always be the better man and simply not respond. Count von Hamburg has proven his immaturaty by refusing to let the issue go. You could gain even more respect in the Diet by simply ignoring him.

TinCow

07-25-2007, 21:47

I am most certainly not trying to freeze you out of anything, King Salier, I merely wish to make sure that the law is obeyed. Even if you what you say is true and you cannot utilize the Bavarian House Edicts, by creating these Outremer Edicts, you give all Crusader Counts the same double-legislative abilities that you claim not to have. As for any difficulties you suffer as a result of being limited to only your own personal edict, surely the extra Diet influence you gain as a result of your position is sufficient compensation. What you are trying to do is create a Fifth House in the Reich. Outremer was never intended for such a purpose, but clearly you believe it is. Yet more proof that Outremer is growing to be more powerful and more important than any of the Duchies.

AussieGiant

07-25-2007, 21:56

Gentlemen,

von Hamburg and I have had our seconds discuss the issue like gentlemen outside the Diet.

There will be a statement shortly.

And no I don't mean Bane and Grom are crushing Teutons into little pieces. Discussions are really taking place.

With that Arnold depart the Chamber at some speed.

Kagemusha

07-25-2007, 22:16

Jonas Von Mahren enters the diet, drunk as a sailor.

"Long live new Kaiser! I heard that we have a new leader, so i thought to visit the diet between few beers. In matter of fact it feels as if the Swabian Kaiser Jobst reign didnt last more then few ale´s. Atleast now we have an Franconian Kaiser and i would propose that as a sign of his politics he would change the capital of the Reich back to Germany. Im personally quite tired of the wenches of Rome!"

Jonas stumbles back into his seat and starts demanding more beer from his servants.

TinCow

07-25-2007, 22:21

*Lothar grins.*

It is good to see that there are still some proper Germans of the old-style left in the Diet. Count von Mahren, you should come visit Florence sometime. It is one of my life's ambitions to make sure that my County has the finest drinking establishments in all of Europe!

Kagemusha

07-25-2007, 22:33

"I might have to take on that offer Von Steffen! I might stop by in there after leaving this wretched city, where beer is watered down and all you see is different kind of bodyguards fighting each other outside the diet building. Are these duals between henchmen and nobility somekind of new fashion, since my scribe tells me that novadays here in diet all you hear is dual challenges between lords and their wretched foreign mercenaries and other squandrels?"

econ21

07-25-2007, 22:50

Diet Speaker: A list of proposed laws and their seconders has been posted at the entrance to the Diet. Edict 11.2 has been recast as Charter Amendment 11.1.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1595629&postcount=1

gibsonsg91921

07-25-2007, 23:57

I second Edict 11.3 and openly support Matthias Steffen for Chancellor.

Stuperman

07-26-2007, 00:44

gibsonsg91921

07-26-2007, 02:12

I have an edict to propose:

Edict 11.6: The Polish fortress of Vilnius is to be taken by the Franconian Household Army by the end of the chancellor's term.

This Edict will help the north of the Reich and the east as the Polish forces recruited at Vilnius are a constant plague on the citadel of Thorn and the surrounding areas.

FactionHeir

07-26-2007, 02:14

I second Edicts 11.1-11.5 and CA 11.1.

OOC: Id say more but gotta run

TevashSzat

07-26-2007, 02:15

I will amend my Edict so it is better suited for an ammendment.

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council

I know that there is no chance of Siegfried being removed from his position, but I believe that this amendment can fix any further disputes over rights of ascension.

GeneralHankerchief

07-26-2007, 02:18

Conrad Salier:

I second this revised amendment and encourage others to do the same.

Privateerkev

07-26-2007, 02:47

Jan von Hamburg has been watching all of the debating going on for hours. He finally gets up to speak.

After sitting here thinking for a few hours I have some things to say. It is clear that things being debated in this Diet have become too much about me. And that is unfortunate because there are a great many important things being debated this Diet session. It is also clear that I am not a good messenger for my message. And that is also unfortunate because I believe I have an important message. While I will strive to be a better messenger, it realistically will not happen before the end of this session. There have been too many hurt words, hurt feelings, and real sword fights lately to hope for emotions to calm down anytime soon. So, I have decided that I am going to leave this Diet for the rest of the Diet session and return to my home in Edessa where I will prepare for the coming battles. Through my fault, and the fault of others Jan eyes Duke Arnold my presence here has become a disruption. Maybe by the time the next Diet session rolls around, things will be calmer, I'll be calmer, or both. Until then I will do my utmost to serve the Lord and the Kaiser like I have always done. I will still write and read what is written to me. And I can be found in the Outremer great hall.

Furthermore, I am officially tabling the CA I was working on. While I do believe it is important legislation, I have helped create an environment so toxic, that I believe it will have zero chance of passing. Since I have become a burden to those who support me, and their causes, I will give up my crusader count title if King Salier asks. I refuse to let peoples' hard feelings towards me hurt the causes I so deeply believe in. Also, this would alleviate the King from having to fire me due to the political pressure he himself is facing. As for Ansehelm, there is no title he can strip from me so there is no point for people to keep putting pressure on him anymore either. The only other thing that can be taken from me is Diet access but since I am leaving the Diet for now, that will have little real effect on my day-to-day life. Now that just leaves one more thing to discuss.

Jan turns to Duke Arnold

I have been told that if I apologize to you, then some of this unpleasantness will go away. Well, that is not going to happen. You had my best friend killed. You tried to kill me twice personally. And you are a sadistic butcher with the blood of thousands on your hands. All I have left is my honor. And if I apologize to you, that goes too. Now I am sure that one I am done speaking, you'll scream and threaten. You'll probably run to my steward or maybe my King and demand that some bad thing or another happen to me. You might hold their legislation ransom. You might even follow me to Outremer again though that did not go very well for you last time. Either way I do not care. Because you can not hurt me anymore. I have already lost everything you could have taken. I have not let you taken my honor. And you have proven too incompetent to take my life. And I bid you good day and pray that we will never meet again.

With that, Jan walks up to the Kaiser, bows, and walks out of the Diet with Maximillian trailing him.

TinCow

07-26-2007, 04:00

Electors, I present to you two Bavarian Household Edicts. The proper kind, not King Salier's imitation brand.

Edict 11.7: Before the end of the Chancellor's term, Cagliari must be conquered by the Bavarian Household Army, led by a Bavarian general. If the Milanese are destroyed by another faction before this can be accomplished, this Edict is void.
Proposed: Lothar Steffen
Seconders: Gerhard Steffen, Matthias Steffen

Edict 11.8: If war breaks out between the Reich and Sicily, the conquest of Naples and Palermo is authorized.
Proposed: Lothar Steffen
Seconders: Gerhard Steffen, Matthias Steffen

For those of you whose initial inclination is to vote against these Edicts simply because I proposed them, please note that my noble brother's name is on them as well. The Milanese Edict is more than just given what we Bavarians have had to put up with from those dogs for endless decades now. The Sicilian Edict is neither warmongering nor a land grab. We do not wish a war nor are we starting one. This legislation is simply prudent planning in case of the unexpected.

GeneralHankerchief

07-26-2007, 04:25

Conrad Salier:

Mmhm. Keep tossing those little barbs in, Lothar.

I support both Edicts, by the way.

Stig

07-26-2007, 09:16

Actually Lothar, Household Edicts can only be proposed by the Duke.

And since enough of people were willing to let Edict11.1 have a go in the votings I second CA 11.1

AussieGiant

07-26-2007, 09:18

Raising an amused eyebrow at the departing figure of Jan von Hamburg, the Dread Knight Bane enters the Austrian Benches and whispers into the Dukes ear, after some moments

So, it seems our seconds did not reach an agreement after all.

Such a shame really.

On to business. Edicts 11.7 and 11.8 do not need seconds but I certainly support them.

I'd like to reword my two edicts Mr Speaker.

Edict 11.4: Before the end of the chancellors term, a suitable bride will be sought out for Duke Arnold to ensure the ancestral house of Austria and the structure of the Reich remain as designed by out forefathers.

Duke Arnold has the right of refusal on any proposals.

(Ducal Edict)Edict 11.5: Before the end of the chancellors term, the Hungarian Capital of Bran will be taken by Austrian forces and be lead by a general of House Austria.

On an administrative matter for the scribes.

Sigismund von Mahren is now named Count of Prague, the title of Count of Venice shall revert to me. Build orders will be adjusted in the Chancellors report.

OverKnight

07-26-2007, 10:39

OOC: A list of updated legislation is here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1619554&postcount=11

TinCow

07-26-2007, 12:14

Indeed, Ansehelm, you are correct and I apologize for my procedural error. When Duke Gerhard speaks up on the matter, I will edit the legislation to show that he is the proposer.

Ituralde

07-26-2007, 13:00

Emperor Siegfried, who had been talking in whispered tones with an old advisor standing behind his right shoulder, had followed the discussion in the Diet impassively so far. After a final whispered exchange with his Tutor he raises to address the Diet.

Dukes and Counts, Electors of the Reich!

As I can see there is still much discussion concerning the legitimacy of my claim to the Imperial throne. While I can understand the need for an elaborated discussion on the matter, which should be held here in front of the Diet for anyone to hear, I can not condone any of the actions proposed within Charter Amendment 11.1. In fact the mere contents of it go against the core of our very Charter, while the details are so vague that its implementation could never be fully controlled.

Let's see what our Charter has to say on the matter of succession.
The following passages come to mind:

4.7 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).
Charter Amendment 8.1:
Clause 2: Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

5.5 The Prince succeeds the Emperor and can deputise in his absence.

These instructions seem very clear to me. Of course I can see the point that it does not specifically mention, who appoints the Prince, which succeeds the Emperor. In absence of facts, it seems prudent to follow the tradition laid out by our ancestors.

I hereby propose Charter Amendment 11.2:
Point 5.5 of the Charter is to be amended by the following: The Prince is appointed by the Emperor upon his ascension to the throne. Should a Prince die a new heir has to be appointed immediately.

So as you can see there is no need to regulate the details of the succession in the Empire, as they are already laid out by our Charter. I know that there has been much doubt cast unto the choice of the late Emperor Jobst actions, this should not however be used to unravel the existing feudal structures present within the Empire.

I'd like to remind every Elector, that decides to support CA 11.1 to think carefully of its implications. It allows the Diet to question your own choices concerning your successor at a whim. I quote "Whenever a large dispute arises". A large dispute? Who decides what makes a dispute small or large, when exactly will this CA spring into action? Seeing the heated nature of our discussions every dispute is bound to grow large. Does every Duke here wish to have his successor questioned every time? To have the powers specifically given to him in the Charter stripped away from him?

There is also the minor matter of including the King of Outremere into this obscure election council. The title of the King of Outremere is not a hereditary one. In fact, we currently do not have any one person occupying this position, as King Salier has been appointed by my predecessor for the duration of one Chancellorship. It is up to the Kaiser to appoint the King of Outremer and I have not yet made my decision on this matter.

I will not stand idly by, while you tread the heritage of our Emperors with your feet, men appointed by God to lead our Reich. A power that was never meant to be in the hands of Dukes. At the same time you willingly jeopardize your own hereditary rights to have sole control over your succession. The CA 11.1 can not stand in this form.

This being said, I do not wish to aggravate any House, seeing as I am of none, but instead will try to act on behalf of all House equally. As such it is my wish to make the exact circumstances of my ascension clear to everyone present in this Diet. The last words spoken by Emperor Jobst were heard by several witnesses and I will let every one of them be called in front of this Diet to speak to you. Should the outcome still leave the faintest trace of a doubt as to Emperor Jobst choice I will glady submit myself to a vote from this chamber!

I will thus propose Edict 11.9:
Should the proceedings of the 11th Diet not lead to a satisfactory result, concerning the ascension of Emperor Siegfried, agreed upon by all Dukes, a public vote of all members of the Diet shall determine the status of Emperor Siegfried.

Oh and by the way, since you weren't too precise on it either I have not mentioned it so far, but what happens exactly, should my elaborations not satisfy this august body? Will another heir be chosen? What if there is a large dispute about him also? I am sure we could keep this up for quite some time, reconsidering and reelecting until everyone had his share of being Emperor. And while I myself am young and have the time, I believe the enemies of the Empire will not sit idly while we dispute our leader. The Horse Lords are ready to strike, Jerusalem has been taken, Hungarians and Poles march into Imperial territory as we speak and the French are mustering their forces too. While we sit here divided. It is up to you how long this division continues and how much will be lost through it.

Emperor Siegfried resumes his seat again.

econ21

07-26-2007, 13:47

Elberhard: I would like to offer my unconditional support to Kaiser Siegfried. While the succession may take some strange twists of fate and leave some mighty men deprived of what might be considered their birthright, I do not think anyone seriously doubts that the Kaiser has assumed the throne honestly and in accordance with due process. Nor have I heard anyone raise questions about the character of our new Kaiser, whose unblemished record may have played no small part in Kaiser Jobst elevating him to power.

I would oppose all constitutional amendments and edicts that allow the Dukes or the Diet to interfere in the succession. Electors, we have a constitution with subtle separations of powers. The Kaiser, Chancellor, Dukes, Counts, Diet, Houses and Outremer all have their role to play in the Reich's affairs. If we allow any one part - whether it is the Dukes or the Diet - to take control of another, then we risk destroying that separation of powers. We would sail perilously close to the Syclla and Charybdis of dictatorship and democracy - twin evils that often reduce to the same thing.

Our founders created a Charter that has seen the Reich rise from a beleaguered and emasculated power to one that towers above all other factions and rivals in power the great Roman Republic of Marcellus Aemilius and Numerius Aureolus. Yet, we have only recently escaped the chaos of two consecutive Emergency Diet sessions. By his assured handling, Chancellor Fredericus has brought us back to an even keel. There is much to be done - the Reich must be defended, the Horse Lords to be repelled, Moscow to be taken and Jerusalem returned to Christendom. Quite frankly, we would be @#$%^&!!!ing fools to risk all that by constitutional shenanigans motivated only by personal ambition and the desire to grab power.

FactionHeir

07-26-2007, 14:01

Some of your words ring true, Siegfried von Kastilien, yet the latter part of your colorful speech seems to attempt to divert attention from this most important matter to other pressing ones, which certainly will also have time to be debated on this diet floor in due time, without delaying our actions as a whole at all as there is a set period for the diet by law which cannot be cut short even if we wanted to.

You are correct that CA 11.1 might be somewhat to broad, but certainly you can see Duke Scherers intentions in it as not trying to question the authority of every member of the diet but rather ensure that there are legal proceedings in place to facilitate succession quickly?

If it thus pleases you, I am certain my Duke would not mind rewording it to read what it did originally and in addition put forward a second CA that covers other grey areas.

While I still question the legality of your claim to the throne, I am willing to second your CA 11.2.

I will not support your edict however, which makes the position of emperor open to a popularity vote of the diet rather than of the heads of houses, who collectively represent their electors to ensure that each houses vote is treated equally.

If you truly wished to ensure authority and dispel any claims against your alleged position, I would like to think that you would urge every single one of your followers to support and vote for a charter amendment or edict that enables a council to examine your claims and either confirm or dispose you as emperor of our holy roman empire.

However, if you are uncertain yourself of your claims...

TinCow

07-26-2007, 14:46

Prinz Elberhard, I have already proclaimed my loyalty to Kaiser Siegfried and I will not say otherwise now. If evidence emerges that shows that the throne was obtained illegally or dishonestly, my loyalty may rightfully be owed to another. However, since that has not yet happened, I acknowledge Siegfried as my Kaiser and will pay proper homage to him.

That said, I feel the need to correct an error in your statements. You said that the we have a subtle separation of powers and that if we allow one part "to take control of another, then we risk destroying that separation of powers." I must point out that your own father, Kaiser Henry, breached these separation of powers when he gave himself the ability to appoint a Duke when a Duke resigns. This is already a clear violation of the separation of powers that you so rightfully proclaim. If the Ducal Houses are to be truly independent from Imperial control, surely a Duke should be allowed to appoint his own heir, no matter the reasons behind the succession. My Prinz, if you truly believe in the separation of powers, I assume you will thus make an active effort to correct this corruption that was perpetrated by your father.

[Edited out a section that was simply due to bad eyesight. My bad.]

TevashSzat

07-26-2007, 14:47

I already accept the fact that you Siegfried will be Kaiser as I cannot even get close to the number of votes to oust you, but my amendment is merely proposed to stop any further succesion disputes. I fear that you have not read my amendment clearly as it states the Dukes and The King of outremer do not decide on the Kaiser at every succession, but only if a significant portion of the electors disagree. I shall amend my CA to the following

Charter Amendment 11.1: Whenever a large dispute arises over the legitamacy of one's succesion to a position of high power (Kaiser, King of Outremer, or Dukedom), a council shall be set forth to discuss the events and vote on who shal succede. Should the position of Kaiser be questioned, the four Dukes and the King of Outremer shall decide who is to become Kaiser. Should a Dukedom or the King of Outremer be under dispute, those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council. In order for the council to be formed, at least one quater of the voting power in the Reich is needed to for the council to be formed. Regarding the dukes, half of the voting period within the house is needed as the same with the King of Outremer which requires half of the crusader's votes

Your edict is something that I just cannot support. We have dukes for a purpose so that we can represent our house. By making that decision open to everyone, then you are just favoring whatever houses whose members cannot keep their pants on, something that I proudly am not part of.

OverKnight

07-26-2007, 15:12

Matthias has been quietly following the debate in the Diet. He speaks briefly:

I will second CA 11.2.

Matthias looks like he will say more, but resumes his silence.

Privateerkev

07-26-2007, 15:28

an aide brings in a letter

I will second edict 11.9

Long live the Kaiser

Stig

07-26-2007, 15:37

Duke Scherer CA 11.1 makes more sense now, however remember that the position of King of the Outremer cannot be under dispute, no person holds that office till he dies. The King is appointed by the Kaiser every Diet Session, as such we officially now do not have a King of the Outremer, and there are no Crusader Counts, people will hold these offices when the Kaiser appoints them. As such the King of the Outremer does not have the power to appoint his heir, if I remember correctly he can't even appoint Crusader Counts, this is all done by the Kaiser.

Ituralde

07-26-2007, 15:40

Duke Sherer, I fully understand your concerns for a regulated succession in future. As you can see our current Charter with my added CA 11.2 will ensure that in the future no unclarities can arise during succession. Is it not only because of Emperor Jobst untimely announcment of his heir that there is doubt cast on his decision? Had he appointed me earlier in front of this body, I believe there would be no doubt about the rightfulness of my ascension, although I fear it might not have stiffled all resentments.

Your CA 11.1 is too far-reaching to be justified by the case of my personal ascension. I will not tolerate such a drastic change to our Charter. Why get a thid party involved in the succession process, why further complicate the matter for future generations? The current office holder publicly declares his heir and that's the matter settled then!

I do however understand that the case of my ascension may be special and as such deserves a further investigation so that all sides can be satisfied. I don't want to see it used as a pretext though to pass unwieldy pieces of legislations that will trouble many generations to come.
In fact, I feel it is most important that every member of his Diet gets his chance to say and vote his oppinion on the matter. If it works for Edicts and Charter Amendments, I don't see why it wouldn't work in this case. Either way the decision process will be influenced by the Dukes who decide, whether a vote is appropriate, and then every Elector can reach a decision. It could easily be the other way around though. Well, what about the following then:

Edict 11.10:
The proof brought forward by Emperor Siegfried concerning Emperor Jobsts last words was not sufficient enough. Therefore the Dukes of the four Houese and the King of Outremere shall convene and decide in a unanimous vote, whether Emperor Siegfrieds ascension to the throne has been rightful or not.

I think that should suffice. Oh, and I would like to take this opportunity to reaffirm Conrad Salier as King of Outremere, who has been a loyal subject to my predecessors, and shall have the chance to recapture Jerusalem under his rule.

He returns to his seat and whispers to his Tutor to fetch Dieter immediately

Privateerkev

07-26-2007, 15:48

another letter is brought in

I will second edict 11.10

Long live the Kaiser

Stuperman

07-26-2007, 16:08

Just to please those legal Nit pickers Edict 11.7 and 11.8 Are infact 2 of the 3 Bavarian household Edicts, I would hope that there would be a third comming soon.

Cecil XIX

07-26-2007, 16:56

I second CA 11.2 and Edict 11.9.

gibsonsg91921

07-26-2007, 17:10

I urge the members of this Diet to second Edict 11.6 - the Polish fortress of Vilnius is a constant plague on the Duchy of Franconia and soon will be for Austria as well if we take Bran. The Polish Nobles recruited there are difficult to destroy on the battlefield. While the majority of you electors believe that Krakow should be the next Polish target, in reality the conquest of Vilnius would hurt our enemies more and assist in the protect of war-torn Thorn.

Privateerkev

07-26-2007, 17:15

another letter is brought in

In the interest of house unity, I will second edict 11.6

Stuperman

07-26-2007, 17:21

Enlighten me good Franconians, where is Vilinus, north of Hylatch, but south of Riga? I am rather unfamiliar with that area of the world.

gibsonsg91921

07-26-2007, 18:02

Indeed - it is but a few miles east of Thorn, and is the major troop production center for the Poles.

Stig

07-26-2007, 18:16

Many times I wanted to take out Vilnius, but sending the FHA on such an expedition is too dangerous at the moment. I'd rather protect our known borders with it than moving it far away from Franconia.

gibsonsg91921

07-26-2007, 18:24

If Thorn can be kept safe for long enough its garrison can be almost a full stack, and the Imperial Army of the Interior can and is defending the other areas. I believe that it can be safe if I attack Poles along the way.

Stuperman

07-26-2007, 18:55

Ansehelm, perhaps you could make it a target along your Grand Russina Crusade? If only taking it, retraining, turn into a town and abandon it. Or keep it a castle and use it as a base of operations for the Russian Crusade?

gibsonsg91921

07-26-2007, 19:02

I suppose Ansehelm could modify his Edict regarding the Russian Crusade to include the attack of Vilnius.

Cecil XIX

07-26-2007, 19:12

I second Edict 11.6.

Stig

07-26-2007, 19:48

No, I would prefer to move on Moscow as quickly as possible. As it is now we don't have the resources to do a long campaign.
My mission is to speed through Russian territory, recruit mercenaries when Moscow comes into sights and take it. By then we will have a new Diet Session and the army needs to return, draw a line between Thorn and Moscow and you end up in Vilnius.

econ21

07-26-2007, 19:49

I propose:

Charter Amendment 11.3: The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts (or Charter Amendments) per Diet Session. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusader Counts in the Council of Crusaders.

My Lords, the administration of Outremer is a @#$%^&!!!ing nightmare: sand and camel dung, hashish and hashashin. It does my 'ead in even thinking about it. And that's not to mention marauding @#$%^&!!!ing horse lords and jihadi @#$%^&!!!s from Egypt. I dunno how King Salier copes with it.

In all seriousness, managing Outremer is at least as complex and challenging as managing one of the Reich's four Houses, whose Dukes have the right to propose three Ducal Edicts. Therefore, it is fitting that the King of Outremer have the same flexibility to seek multiple legislation to assist in the good management of his Kingdom.

Privateerkev

07-26-2007, 19:56

another letter is brought in

I second CA 11.3

Stig

07-26-2007, 19:57

Makes sense Elberhard, however I think some people fear that persons will see the Outremer as their House, instead of their original Duchy.
This will make sure the 4 Houses system is lifted and there won't be any balance anymore.

However it is also so that the Outremer as it is now can't start as many Edicts as it needs, and thus I second this CA 11.3.

GeneralHankerchief

07-26-2007, 19:57

Conrad Salier:

Seconded.

In addition, I may as well re-post the list of Crusader Counts here for convenience:

Antioch - Conrad Salier
Damascus - Karl Zirn
Adana - Matthias Steffin
Acre - Elberhard
Aleppo - Fredricus von Hamburg
Edessa - Jan von Hamburg

TinCow

07-26-2007, 20:14

Once again I will state that this legislation, now identified as Charter Amendment 11.3, is an attempt to give benefits to Outremer which makes it stronger and more powerful than any Duchy. As King Salier has pointed out, the King of Outremer will gain no advantage from this legislation, as he has been forced to abandon his House to take up this post. However, this is not required by any other Crusading Count. As a result, this legislation gives all Crusading Counts access to SEVEN edict proposals, while those of us who remain to protect the Reich have access to no more than FOUR edict proposals. This does not even take into account the extra Diet influence these Counts receive as a result of their Eastern service. This is a blatant attempt to give Outremer priority over all other Houses. If the King of Outremer wishes to propose legislation that would correct the legislative inequality for himself alone, maybe that could be considered fair and equitable. However, giving this power to ALL Crusading Counts is a direct assault on the very institution of the Ducal Houses.

As for an inability to legislate in Outremer, don't make me laugh. There are SEVEN Electors out there already, giving instant access to SEVEN personal edicts and all TWELVE Ducal Edicts. If none of the Electors believes Outremer is important enough to use their own personal edicts or to propose it in their proper Ducal Houses, then surely Outremer is not in any dire need of management.

Stuperman

07-26-2007, 20:17

11.3, eh, I wonder though..a hoarse cough erupts from Gerhard's lungs, momentarily scielencing him..pardon me, I wonder though Given that the Kingship of the Outremer can change during the course of the diet session, Should some provision be set out as to which King the edicts fall under?

Or make the Time of Kingship re-announcement Official? to co-inside(sp) with the opening of the Diet session? after the voting is done?

edit: Lothar makes a good point, should not the crusader counts also have to give up thier house loyalties as well? (OOC: this could lead to problems for some houses, Bavaria , for example would only have 2 electors if this happens, effectively preventing any edicts from them/us.)

Stig

07-26-2007, 20:20

I agree with you on one thing Lothar, I do not understand why Crusader Counts get extra influence. Hell, simple counts have more influence than Dukes, that should not happen.
Outremer is now settled and a part of the Reich, there's no more use to give that extra influence in my opinion. It's strange that Counts have the same influence as Dukes.

TinCow

07-26-2007, 20:42

Indeed, Ansehelm. Regardless of our past quarrels, I know we both seek to do what is best for our Houses, and I respect you for that. As such, I will use my personal edict to propose legislation to counter this growing erosion of the power of the Duchies.

Charter Amendment 11.4:

Clause 3.10 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):

3.10 Influential players get bonus votes (max +6 bonus)

Appointed Influence (Max 4 points):
Duke: +3
Count: +1
Chancellor, ex-Chancellor, or Prince: +1

Stat Influence (Max 2 points):
15 or more total stat points: +1 (I thought about a lower number, but all avatars are given a base 3 piety and base 5 loyalty, which means those points are freebies. So, 15 is only 7 from actual traits, plus the 8 piety and loyalty freebies)
6 or more ranks in one stat: +1 (In the unlikely scenario where a character gets 6 or more in 2 stats without having 15 total, they get this +1 twice)

The player who is Emperor gets bonus votes differently, being equal to his authority.

Charter Amendment 9.1 is amended to read as follows (changes in bold):

4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a King of Outremer, who will be appointed by the Emperor at each full Diet session. The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment (e.g. if Duke, must appoint a Steward). The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session, but 2 must specifically deal with Outremer affairs.

8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. Damascus is assigned to Austria; Adana is assigned to Bavaria; Acre is assigned to Swabia; and Aleppo is assigned to Franconia. Antioch will be the capital of Outremer and an Imperial province governed by the King of Outremer. Edessa will also be an Imperial province, governed by a Count chosen by the King of Outremer. The Crusading Count for a settlement must come from the appropriate House. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the Diet session that marks their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains.

This legislation favors no person and no House. All Duchies benefit equally and all Dukes are restored to their rightful place as figures of power and status. As it stands now, Steward Ansehelm is correct, Dukes have no more influence than Crusader Counts. This is unacceptable. No Count should ever be able to command as much influence in the Diet as a Duke. Even if we were simply to increase the Dukes' influence, that would not be enough, for two Crusader Counts alone would already wield more power than a single Duke. This is equally absurd. Crusader Counts remain under the authority of the Dukes and they should never be able to wield his level of power.

In deference to King Salier's complaints about legislative ability, and to show that I am not an unfair man, this amendment gives him the ability to create two extra edicts to aid Outremer. Surely this will solve his dilemma and ensure that Outremer is effectively managed. It is certainly a far better solution than making Outremer more powerful than the Duchies.

Stig

07-26-2007, 20:48

I second you proposed CA 11.4 Lothar, that should balance out things. Dukes are the most important after the Kaiser, tho I propose you change somethings:
First, the King of the Outremer should have the same influence as the Dukes, afterall he is just as important and reigns an even larger part of the Reich.
Secondly, I think that the leader of a crusade should gain an extra bonus point. Afterall what he does, and I know people won't agree, is for the greater good of Christianity. This leader should ofcourse also keep this influence after the crusade has ended.

Cecil XIX

07-27-2007, 07:12

Sigismund rises to address the Diet.

My lords, these past ten years has been the most tumultuous in living memory. We are fortunate in that things are mostly back on track, but we cannot assume that we will be so fortunate in the future. Future Chancellors may be more subtle in their machinations and more secure in their political support even as border defenses are weakened and discontent rises. To act as both a deterent and a warning against future Chancellors who may not have the best interests of the Reich at heart, I propose Charter Amendment 11.5, which reads as follows:

2.7 All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls at all times.

The beauty of this amendment is that it is simple to execute, while far-reaching in its consequences and revealing of the character of its Chancellor should it not be upheld. It will require only a minimum extra work to be completed, allow more leeway in taxation, act as a deterrant to small-scale invasion, and should any future Chancellors fail to keep the proper troop levels it will serve as an early warning that something is afoot. This a simple piece of no-nonsense legislation that can be implemented almost immediately, after which it costs the Reich nothing except the vigilance that is already required of us. Thank you.

Sigismund resumes his seat.

OverKnight

07-27-2007, 09:07

Matthias reviews the updated (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1619554&postcount=11) list of legislation and speaks:

I will second CA 11.3.

CA 11.5 is a good idea, but I believe the language to be too restrictive. What if part of the garrison needs to be sent outside the walls to chase down a small force of brigands? That action would violate the CA as currently written.

FactionHeir

07-27-2007, 10:43

I applaud Siegfried von Kastilien for his edict 11.10, but I feel that an unanimous vote is impossible to reach. I shall support the eduict if it is amended to a simple majority vote. I am certain then we can bring an end to this dispute. Also, your edict only considers whether your ascension was rightful, but not whether in case it is not, you may remain on the throne or not. This also needs fixing,.

I will present evidence to the Council of Five once an appropriate edict/CA is passed to allow the Dukes to determine the outcome.

I also second CA 11.4 and would like to propose following motion:

CA 11.5: The position of King of Outremer is appointed by the emperor. This appointment lasts for the duration of the emperors reign or the Kings lifetime, whichever is shorter. The King of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new King is appointed by the emperor.
If the King of Outremer is deemed incapable of the assignment, he may be impeached by the emperor and 2 Dukes.

My lords, I feel that appointing the King of Outremer each diet session may be tedious and there usually would be no reason for the emperor to change this position mid term. This also ensures that this position is not given out lightly and only rests in capable hands.

OOC: Might not be the best explanation, but the best I can come up with considering I need to hurry out now.

Ituralde

07-27-2007, 11:33

Your suggestions sound reasonable Count Hans. However I can not understand your explanations concerning evidence you intend to bring forth against me. If you have evidence that tarnishes my claim, it would only be right to present it here in the Diet for everyone to see. My own evidence will be presented shortly here. I do not condone this backroom dealings you are suggesting. How am I to refute charges brought against me, if I don't even know of them, since I would not be part of that "Council of Five". I present my evidence openly and for every Elector to see, you should do the same, unless you are the one that hides something.

As to me remaining on the throne? So far I've only heard claims against my ascension, but so far no proof has been brought forward that another man would be eligible for that position. And surely that person should have to undergo the same procedure that I am willing to undergo to erase any doubts as to the righteousness of the next Emperor!

And the vote should be unanimous. We can not allow dissent to rip apart the Empire. Should this "Council of Five" truly appoint the next Emperor against every written law and customs, there should be no doubt that every member of it supports this decision.

Once Dieter will have spoke in front of this Diet there is little I can add to further my cause and I believe it is now up to the Electors whether they choose to continue this state of confusion or choose to clear it up.

Stuperman

07-27-2007, 13:13

Gentlemen, I'd like to present the last Bavarian household Edict.

Edcit 11.11 (I think, this can be changed easly)
In response to the Increased hostility shown in general by the Sicilians the Garrison of Rome shall be increased to include: A full 'free' garrison of local militia, plus 2 regiments of profesional foot, 2 regiments of professional missle and 2 regiments of Cavelry(professional or militia), Gerhard Steffen is to be put in Charge of thr Defence of Rome.
Seconded:Lothar Steffen, Mathais Steffen.

Edit: I must echo my son's sentiment towards CA 11.5, the spirit is correct, but the language too restrictive.

Stig

07-27-2007, 13:32

I second Hans' CA, which he accidently seemed to have named 11.5 and should be 11.6 if I'm correct

AussieGiant

07-27-2007, 16:44

Christ on the Cross!!

It's like a lawyer’s wet dream in here. There are more proposals being tabled than at a bloody church on Sunday's.

I think we need to re-address the number of edicts like we did some decades ago, if only to have everyone focus a little more on the really important things.

It's just a thought and I'm certainly one to blame...hell I've managed to put my marriage into an edict.

And someone correct me if I'm wrong.

A CA needs a 2/3 majority while an edict just a simple tally of influence votes. That makes CA 11.1 much harder to pass than edict 11.10.

Would edict 11.10 be a poor mans version of the CA on the same theme? Keep that in mind gentlemen.

As for a unanimous vote, then I am in agreement. The whole point of this succession issue is to remove any ability to question or cloud the issue. We simply CAN NOT afford this type of issue to be anything but absolute.

Damn a need a drink!!

Taking a seat Arnold continues to read further Diet papers with some consternation.

Cecil XIX

07-27-2007, 17:57

Count Steffen makes an amiable point. I have modified CA 11.5 to read as follows.

2.7 All cities must have their maximum amount of free upkeep militia within their walls all times, except when the militia is used to fight armies observed to be within the boundaries of their province.

AussieGiant

07-27-2007, 18:16

Slapping Sigismund on the back heartily Arnold grins in pride

There you go brother!!

I'll second CA 11.5 now.

whispering but not really low enough to stop everyone hearing Arnold continues

Hells teeth Sigismund you need to get better lawyers. You nearly made diamonds pop out of me arse with the previous wording!!

Looking back to the House benches the young Duke seems a little unsteady

Lothar!!??

Where are you. We need to go out tonight, it's all bloody back stabbing, conniving tripe here at the moment!!

Is that professional whore monger Elberhard back here for the Diet session, jeesuss did he find some excellent places last time he was in town!!

Stuperman

07-27-2007, 18:17

I will second the revised CA 11.5. Why not take advantage of such a thing?

Warluster

07-27-2007, 23:05

Dieter enters the Diet, looking nervous but certian.

Mein lords.

I am sure many of you doubt Siegfreds right to the throne. But I can bring forth many Knights who witnessed Kaiser Jobst's final moments.

Jobst was looking for a heir ever since he became Kaiser, of course, once he and his wife had a son, all was solved. He knew he wouldn't last long enough on this earth to make Athlalwolf his heir, so he choose the most inexperinced noble in the Empire, and not a Swabian.

Thus, he invitied Siegfred, and they travelled for some years. I was told, by the Kaiser personally, that Siegfred was to be his heir. It is not in words, no, but I can summon some men of Kaiser Jobst's bodyguard.

Dieter bows, and sits on one of the back benches.

Privateerkev

07-27-2007, 23:48

Jan walks in

I have come to announce this in person as our law dictates. This is an attempt to put some limits and humanity into our actions. The Kaiser himself has urged that I propose this and I do not wish to dissapoint.

Charter Amendment 11.8:
(a) All prisoners are to be released after every battle.
(b) No settlement can be exterminated without prior authorization from a Diet vote.

Jan leaves

GeneralHankerchief

07-27-2007, 23:48

Conrad Salier:

Seconded. If we are good Christians then this should come easy.

OverKnight

07-27-2007, 23:50

Matthias looks over the updated (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1619554&postcount=11) legislation and speaks.

All this talk of councils and such has made me aware of a possible weakness in our Charter which should be addressed.

Charter Amendment 11.7: The section of the Charter which currently reads "5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes" will be changed to the following: 5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes. However, if a rules dispute directly involves the Emperor, the four Dukes of the Realm (or their appointed deputies) will gather to assist the Emperor in clarifying the dispute. A simple vote among the Dukes would decide the dispute, with the Emperor having the tie-breaking vote.

This is not an indictment of Kaiser Siegfried, but more of acknowledgement of past Kaisers who have abused the above clause in the Charter. It is most likely the Emperor's judgement of a dispute directly involving him would still be in effect, this is merely for cases where an abuse of power is so blatant that three out of the four Dukes disagree.

Electors might wonder why the King of Outremer is not involved. The King is an Imperial appointee and may not have the independence of judgement that the Dukes, secure in their positions, would have.

Stig

07-27-2007, 23:52

Do you know what happens if we can't even ransom prisoners? We lose income.
Do you know what happens if someone as Duke Arnold or myself can't kill our enemies? We will lose more men ourselves. Does anyone want that to happen?

The life of a German is worth 20 Poles, I'd rather have Poles and Russians killed than seeing the precious German blood being spilled.

(OOC: Hell I feel like a man with a little moustache)

econ21

07-28-2007, 00:11

Elberhard: I second Charter Amendment 11.8.

Stuperman

07-28-2007, 00:14

I totally agree, by forcing the release of prisoners you only asking for MORE bloodshed. Do you really think that the thousands of polish Soldiers put to thier deaths Near Thorn wouldn't return?

Stuperman

07-28-2007, 00:18

Elberhard: I second Charter Amendment 11.8.

Well, it's good to see that you put the lives of our enemies over the lives of Good German Elberhard, In a dry tone Grehard adds: Such a patriot!

TinCow

07-28-2007, 01:50

The Hells themselves must be freezing over, for I find myself agreeing with Steward Ansehelm for the second time in a row! Charter Amendment 11.8 is an afront to all citizens of the Reich. We might as well pass an Edict requring that our women be raped by the Rus as well!

GeneralHankerchief

07-28-2007, 02:06

Conrad Salier:

Regarding Charter Amendment 11.6. Although this amendment most obviously affects me and would seem to put me in a good position, I have been hesitant to second it.

On one hand, it does allow for more fluency and consistency in the Outremer. This is obviously good; I would not want leaders changing in moments of crisis just because the Kaiser disagreed with the King. On the other hand, I fear that lifetime appointments may corrupt the person in power and cause them to be a less effective King, one who is more concerned with consolidating power than protecting Outremer. However, I would hope that the King, who will most likely have come to the East on his own accord, would be an extremely chivalrous sort and be above that sort of thing.

I am still unsure of how to vote, but in the meantime I second the CA.

AussieGiant

07-28-2007, 02:49

I also second CA 11.6.

I agree with the reasoning of King Sailer, but I'm prepared to give it a try as it does attempt to create stability in the premier title holder of the region.

I also second CA 11.7.

Matthais you certainly have some skill at political wording.

As for the concept of enforcing the Reich wide release of prisioners after battle...and the pre approval of exterminating an enemy populace.

Looking at Jan seat in the Diet, then Elberhard, Arnold exhales his breath through his teeth in a hiss.

...just how is this meant to be enforced?

I'd like all men here to think of the consequences to this realm in general if our enemies and other nations know something like this before negotiating with us or bringing battle to us.

What is stopping enemy generals from realising defeat is imminent and then simply surrendering en mass?? With this in place they would be able to walk away unharmed.

Likewise, when the Kaiser or Chancellor are negotiating with hostile nations...it's improbable to believe that something like this would not be taken into account when organising cease fires and truces!!??

What of our own allies current and future? Will nations deal with us as allies to protect mutual borders if they know full well that any large battle will lead to enemy troops being released to potentially fight them months later!!??

Victory becomes...a loss gentlemen, that is what will happen!! On a strategic level this is totally debilitating.

Please note I'm not asking for the exact opposite as some people here imagine. I'm only asking that each General of this Reich be given the choice to assess the situation at hand and make his own decision...and to live with the consequences of their choice...no matter how judgemental others seem to be towards the behaviour of others, enforcing this type of behaviour will only make us weaker at a strategic level.

I must point out that it seems I have been someone this concept has been aimed against...and for those of you more chivalrous I can understand...but I am not without religion and I'm not without mercy. My reputation has grown rapidly of late but I wish to state that it is not aimed at men of my homeland, but at my enemies that threaten this Empire.

Looking again pointedly at Jan seat and that of Elberhard, Arnold continues

To date the Crusades have brought more bloodshed than any other conflict I have read over my life. Our greatest armies have been assembled in Outremer, more soldiers have died defending that piece of the world than nearly every other part of the Reich combined.

Yet is seems as if this small detail has been overlooked and wishes of men in a different part of the world want to impose their beliefs on other men is other parts of the Reich.

I do not agree. Each man is currently free at this time to pursue his own course of action with our enemies and deal with God accordingly. This charter removes that freedom.

Taking a seat Arnold whispers to Grom and Bane. Handing them notes before they depart into the Austrian chambers.

Privateerkev

07-28-2007, 07:56

an aide brings in a letter

I will second CA 11.7

OverKnight

07-28-2007, 08:23

An ink stained scribe bursts into the Diet, clutching a sheaf of papers to his chest. He speaks:

My Lords, it was a horrific struggle, I saw many of my comrades fall from wrist strain and cataracts, a few even went mad, but we have prevailed! The legislation list is updated (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1619554&postcount=11)!

The scribe collapses muttering, "No more! No more!", to himself over and over again.

econ21

07-28-2007, 11:07

Diet Speaker: This Diet session is now closed. Normal debate can of course continue.

I would like to issue a warm thank you to Matthias's scribes for their heroic endeavours.

GeneralHankerchief

07-28-2007, 17:19

Conrad Salier:

After much deliberation, I am for CA 11.4. I want those who come to Outremer to do so for reasons aside from power.

AussieGiant

07-28-2007, 17:26

Standing and bowing slightly to the King

My Lord,

I'm inspired by your thoughts.

I have also cast any petty concepts aside to back your Crusade to Jeruselum and have the Emperor's selection of you set into law.

FactionHeir

07-29-2007, 01:49

I would like to second Peter von Kastiliens edict.

OOC: Sorry, was unable to check yesterday but really wanted to get that seconding in. Will post more in 10 hrs

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 01:56

An aide walks up to Count Hans

Um..Count Hans...forgive me for the interruption but, we are voting right now and voting will be over in 8 hours. So, if your not going to be back before 10 hours, then you might want to get your voting in now. Unless you want to "vote by mail" and hand your vote to the Diet Speaker.

Thank you

AussieGiant

07-29-2007, 02:08

Looking at the current voting sheets Arnold face becomes grim

As for this Holy amendment 11.8, just how does some propose to over rule my decision in the field end enforce this? Unless the Kaiser is baby sitting me, I will be the senior member of any army I lead.

It's short sighted gentlemen and now you're going to turn the Reich in to a laughing stock.

It seems you are going to Russia surrounded by enemies and no way to the remove them Anselhelm. I don't envy you.

TinCow

07-29-2007, 04:05

I would not concern yourself much with Amendment 11.8, Arnold. It does not appear that it will pass, and even if it does, well... you can't execute prisoners if you do not take any in the first place, can you? In the midst of battle, a tactical retreat can be disguised as a true rout, so best to make sure the enemy is truly beaten by riding them down then and there!

As for the peasants in hostile cities... who the hell knows how many people live in those places? There are certainly estimates, but we all know they are never accurate. If several thousand seem to be missing after a siege, well, they probably died of starvation, or fled for their lives!

AussieGiant

07-29-2007, 04:33

With a look of sincerity Arnold is very earnest in his words

Yes, yes...it's all very hazy in some parts of the world you're entirely correct Lothar.

I've got now idea how many people live in Budapest anyway. The rebels burnt all our records after they took the place.

In my opinion the fact I didn't kill a single one of them myself is a credit. Of course I can't vouch for my Captains. They are a passionate lot and many of them came from Budapest to begin with.

Half of them wanted to burn the place down...I had to have Bane take a few out the back and remind them of the concept of "taking orders".

God knows...and that's my point...only God really knows. And unless someone here is speaking on his behalf, then he and I have a deal going.

OverKnight

07-29-2007, 05:43

Matthias is handed the latest voting tallies by an exhausted scribe. His eyes widen a bit and he glances over quickly at Lothar and his Father. He shakes his head a bit ruefully but is smiling. He stands to speak.

Given the current results, I will begin giving some preliminary orders, mostly dealing with the movement of Imperial agents. I urge any Electors that have not posted build queues or House Army orders to do so. Once the Chancellor's term has officially begun, in the absence of orders, I will use my best judgement based on past comments and common sense. If any queues or orders come in late, I will do my best to integrate them into ongoing events.

Of immediate concern to me is the the rise of heresy and Orthodox Christianity around Thorn (50% Catholic). Also, Metz and Dijon have high levels of heresy (~80% Catholic). Jerusalem, while not in posession of the Reich, has seen its Christian population plummet (30%) since the city was taken by the Saracens. I will have our priests in Outremer move to the area to prepare the way for the Crusade and ensure the occupation of the city and the hand over back to the Church goes smoothly. The confirmed presence of plague in the city may delay all this however.

Besides Count Ansehelm, do any other Franconians wish to participate in the Teutonic Crusade? (OOC: Stig, I might include an unclaimed avatar in the stack as a precaution)

I heard that Wolfgang Hummel has plans to travel to Byzantine Iconium. Is this true? Or will he take ship back to Swabia? Is he even welcome in the Empire and does he wish to return?

With the dearth of Swabians in their own Duchy, I plan to have Count Hans return there by the swiftest way possible. I will continue with this plan unless I hear differently.

I believe Duke Arnold wishes to move to Ragusa, or so I last heard. Is this true? I understand that Sigismund von Mahren will take command of the AHA. I assume he is the one who will move on Bran if that edict passes.
Edit: On further review of the AHA orders, I now understand what the Duke and Count Sigismund wish, I withdraw these questions.

There is much to review before the term begins, I will start now.

Matthias resumes his seat and waves over a gaggle of scribes and begins reading reports and dispatching orders at a quick pace.

AussieGiant

07-29-2007, 08:58

Chancellor Matthias,

I have sent you a brief note in clarification of my intentions.

Congratulations on your...win.

FactionHeir

07-29-2007, 10:57

I congratulate Matthias on his victory for the honorable position of chancellor and wish to thank all members of the diet who have supported versions of edicts and charter amendments considering the investigation and possible ...solution to Imperial matters.

I have also cast my votes, and thus, the dice.

Ituralde

07-29-2007, 11:16

I would also like to congratulate Matthias Steffen, he will make a fine Chancellor and surely follow the fine tradition of Bavarian Chancellors before him.

It saddens me though to see, that the late Emperor Jobsts dealings with his succession have led this body to pass a law which will put every future Emperor under suspicion. I had hope we could deal with my own ascension seperately, but it seems as though the Dukes have not been idle to grab a little bit more power for themselves. And this, after not a single piece of evidence has been presented against my claims, while I have defended myself numerous times.

Why the matter of the succession of the King of Outremere, even appears in this piece of legislation is beyond me though. There is not even the slimmest possibility of the matter being unclear. But it seems that fear and insecurity have spread within this body, and everybody tries to assure himself by unwieldy legislation whose long time consequences can not be fully grasped yet.

Either way, with the passing of CA 11.1 it is now the time to cast the vote, to see whether 1/4 of the assembled Electors here still hold doubts regarding my ascension. I repeat again, that it was Emperor Jobsts express wish that I should follow him on the throne and so far no one has bothered to give proof that Emperor Jobst, Dieter, and me were lying.

I will wait with my judgement on the rest of the legislation until all votes have been counted and my status has been resolved.

econ21

07-29-2007, 12:23

Diet Speaker: Very well, my Kaiser, I will organise a poll to see if a quarter of this Diet wish to see our Kaiser chosen by the Dukes and the King of Outremer.

econ21

07-29-2007, 12:48

Elberhard:

Well, the election results are in.

The people have spoken ...

...the @#$%^&!!!s!

I mean, congratulations and all to Chancellor Matthias, but what were you lot smoking when you voted for CA 11.1?

I don't @#$%^&!!!ing believe it, we require a 2/3 majority to impeach the Chancellor but a mere 1/4 to get the Kaiser chosen by five men!

With CA 11.1 and 11.4, this Diet has seen a marked shift in the balance of power towards the Dukes - the majority of whom voted for Hummel in the last Diet!

We all remember how decisively they dealt with that crisis - they acted with all the vigour of a drunken sloth falling off a tree.

I hope the lackeys who subserviently followed their bidding in the last set of votes are suitably rewarded.

AussieGiant

07-29-2007, 13:06

Arnold

Jesus wept Elberhard it's only in the event we have a dispute!!

If this whole bloody thing had been done like it had been for the last few hundred years then there would have been no need.

Now we have some dying wish whispered between two men while one of them was having his arse fried to his plate mail. Good knows what he was thinking under those conditions.

Hell if my @#$!s were being panned fried I would have probably being asking Siegfried for some balm, not telling him I want him to be the next Kaiser.

Who knows, and that the #$%@!ing point. It's normally stated HERE in this building for all to hear and with no degree of doubt.

Plus this is all conveniently confirmed by a person that is not even a Noble of this Reich. A layman you could say.

PLUS, I noticed you were the only man here not to vote for my next wife...I mean first wife...I mean my future and ONLY wife...

Arnold leans down to whisper into the ex Count of Venice's ear for some moment, standing up rather abruptly the tail end of the discussion can be heard.

...exactly, so they didn't count...ok great.

Exactly Elberhard, my future wife. Do you have something against me being able to get my rocks off in wed lock!!??

Good, god, man, the last time you were here I was hanging off the chandeliers drunk as a pirate, lobbing bread rolls between the girl's legs you were between!!

Poor form old chap...

...poor form I must say!!

Just get it over with before your hand falls off like mine's about too so we can go out and get all messy.

Where's that lunatic Lothar!!

Turning and bellowing to the servants

Page boy!!! Find Lord Lothar, drag him out from which ever boudoir he's in and get him here pronto!! Yes I said pronto, I do speak Italian, where in Rome for christ sake!!!

TevashSzat

07-29-2007, 13:41

I do congrajulate Matthias for his win for the chancellorship. Pleased too am I about the passing of CA 11.1, but there is one error in it I believe. In the last sentence, it shoud be "power" not "period".

I must also inform everyone that I have urgent matters to attend to in Swabia, but will return in a week or so.

Friederich rushes out of the Diet

TinCow

07-29-2007, 14:38

*Lothar storms in, looking very upset.*

This Diet is absolutely insane! You voted in both Charter Amendments 11.3 and 11.4?! Do you have any idea what you have done? You have now given Outremer FAR more voting power than any Ducal House! The entire point of including the voting clause in 11.4 was so to address the inequality without having to implement the ridiculously biased 11.3! Congratulations, gentlemen, you have just given Outremer as much legislative power as two Ducal Houses.

*Lothar takes his seat, muttering to himself and scowling at the room.*

Goddamned bloody ignorant gits...

AussieGiant

07-29-2007, 14:50

Looking rather shocked Arnold grabs a large pewter of Ale and downs it in one gulp!!

See!!

I $#%^$#ing said there was too much legislation!!

No one even know's their head from the #$^#hole anymore, and I'm as guilty as any of you!!

For christ sake, call the lawyers and have someone sort this debacle out...I'm going to have a drink...

...where a laughing stock gentlemen. We've voted for the same thing without ever realising.

He are my concerns at a glance:

-----------

Now don't CA 11.3 and the part of CA 11.4 that deals with edicts and CA's in an overlap manner for Outremer

CA's 11.1 and CA 11.7. Plus now that I look closer then Edict 11.9 also deals with succession.

This deals with the poll the speaker has past under our noses.

There seems to be an overlap of how this is to be done.

And finally doesn't CA 11.6 and part of CA 11.4 (CA 9.1 point 4) also need to be worked out as they both speak about Outremer succession

-----------

We must reduce the total amount of possible legislation for future diet sessions or we risk having this realm become entirely ungovernable.

Stig

07-29-2007, 15:50

Seriously, stop with your lawyers. You southerners really call on them too often, I've never needed one, and I'm happy about that. Filty bastards they are.

The first problem you produced when making Edicts and CA's was the overlapping of CA 11.3 and CA 11.4.
This is no problem, they both mention 3 extra Edicts for the King of the Outremer, I see no problem in that.

Secondly CA 11.1 and CA 11.7. 11.1 deals with succession, 11.7 doesn't. That's those two sorted out.

Most importantly we have CA 11.1 and Edict 11.9.
11.9 says that the Dukes need to agree on the fact wether Siegfried is Kaiser or not. If they don't (ie. 3 Dukes don't agree with Siegfrieds arguments) there will be a public vote, if not everyone will vote.
CA 11.1 says that there should be a large dispute, to see if there's a large dispute we need to vote, as is done in the running poll.

These overlap, in this was the mistake of the people who made them, we should go by one. And we are going by CA 11.1 as it seems.

AussieGiant

07-29-2007, 16:05

Ok then. I'm voting.

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 16:42

Jan walks in baring the markings on his armor of being a Crusader

Good morning gentlemen! I have only a short amount of time before I join Count Zirn in retaking Jerusalem from those dirty Saracens.

First off, I wish to publicly congratulate Chancellor Matthias and pray that his reign is a prosperous one.

Second, I am happy to point out that I am one of the few people who did not vote for both CA 11.3 and CA 11.4. While there are those that disagreed with that position, I have at least remained ideologically consistent.

Third, Does CA 11.3 and CA 11.4 truly overlap? One gives the King some edicts. One gives the King some more edicts. No contradiction here. All because people do not like how the two CA's combine, doesn't mean that the CA's contradict. And before people claim that I am only saying this because it benefits Outremer, I am not the one that voted for both CA's.

Stig

07-29-2007, 17:39

No, both give the King 3 edicts, so they overlap, and that's nice.
And believe me, the King is appointed by the Kaiser, and people in the Outremer can easely be called back by the Dukes if they get too much influence.

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 17:44

Ansehelm, I must respectfully disagree.

One gives 3 personal edicts. One gives 3 house edicts. These do not overlap. And the Crusader Counts have actually lost influence, not gained any. They have just gained edicts.

Ituralde

07-29-2007, 17:48

I am sure all theses irregualirities will be settled by the Emperor. However this may take some time, because first there are several things that need to be worked out concerning my status. The first voting is currently in progress, but I fear the Diet has given the Dukes enough power to call for a second run. As I have predicted the Reich is without Kaiser, and may continue to do so for quite some time. Alas, it was the wish of this Diet, so we must follow it through.

Stig

07-29-2007, 17:52

The King of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts

The King of Outremer may propose up to 3 personal Edicts during each Diet session

Now is that the same or not Jan?
Would it be the same as Ducal it would have said:

The Kingdom of Outremer is allowed to propose three Edicts

Next to that concerning the Kaiser, this Diet has made many mistakes. First of all the will of Kaiser Jobst, any man loyal to the Reich would follow that. They who vote against Kaiser Siegfried are not loyal to the Reich.
People who are not loyal to their country should be hung, banned atleast.

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 18:07

My dear Ansehelm,

While I have clearly stated my loyalty to Kaiser Siegfried from the very beginning, I would balk at calling those who think differently, traitors. While Duke Arnold and I have had our differences, the man is a patriot. The Diet passed CA's and edicts regarding succession, some proposed by the Kaiser himself. I suggest we let them play out.

As for CA's 11.3 and 11.4, you are not reading out the whole legislation. If you read the whole of both bills, it becomes clear that CA 11.3 provides for 3 house edicts and CA 11.4 provides for 3 personal edicts.

Cecil XIX

07-29-2007, 18:13

Count von Hamburg, the word 'house' does not appear anywhere in CA 11.3. Perhaps they were intended to be like House Edicts, but since the bill does not explicitly say so, that is not what they are.

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 18:21

Count Sigismund,

I have had my lawyer look at these CA's and I agree with his interpretation. Since 11.3 says that the three edicts need pre-approval by Crusaders, they are the equivalent of Ducal House edicts. 11.4 gives the King three personal edicts because he has no access to Bavarian house edicts. Now, I am not saying I like this situation. I am not the one that voted for both CA's. But, they are both law of the land now and must be followed. Come the next Diet session, people can propose a CA that nulls one of the others.

GeneralHankerchief

07-29-2007, 18:22

Conrad Salier:

If Chancellor Steffin does his work well, I doubt that seven edicts will be needed to steer Outremer in the right direction.

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 18:26

Actually my King,

We have access to a potential of 24 edicts. 6 personal edicts plus 12 house edicts plus 3 Outremer edicts plus 3 King edicts. Now, the actual number will end up being far less but that is the potential.

Stig

07-29-2007, 18:47

The Outremer is no House, it can have no such thing as House edicts, and that's the end of it.

And I suggest you stop calling me "your dear Ansehelm" Jan, or I might even kill some Polish prisoners, there are still some left.

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 20:42

Ansehelm,

The Outremer is not a house but it has been granted house powers by legislation. CA 11.3 gives Outremer edicts that function exactly like Ducal House edicts. So, they are in fact, house edicts even if they are not named that. It doesn't matter what we name them. If you did not want Outremer to have the functional equivalent of house edicts, then you should not have voted for CA 11.3.

flyd

07-29-2007, 21:02

The Outremer has become more like a house over time. Certainly, a special temporary status was necessary as the Kingdom was initially built up, but currently it acts just like a House, and is only not so in name. Perhaps these sorts of disputes would be best resolved if the Charter was ammended at the next session to make the House status for the Outremer official, the Counts removed from their Duchies, and the King given equal rank to the Dukes.

Privateerkev

07-29-2007, 21:19

My father has a good point.

The King already dispenses counties like a Duke. He already commands the army like a Duke does. Now he gets edicts that function equivalent to Ducal House edicts. And, with the passage of CA 11.4, it has become easier for an elector to pull away from his house and become more committed to Outremer. We already release the King from being bound to his former house. Instead of making Crusaders straddle between house loyalties and Outremer loyalties, they can be allowed to pick which policy they wish to be loyal to. It does us no good to pretend Outremer is not a house when we keep enacting legislation that makes it more and more like one.

econ21

07-30-2007, 00:12

Diet Speaker: The scribes have now integrated the Charter Amendments into our Charter. [OOC: influence in the playlist has also been updated].

There has been some debate both inside this Diet and outside about possible contradictions in the Charter Amendments and Edicts passed. One concerns the succession; the other, the voting powers of the King of Outremer.

On the succession, Electors are doubtless aware of the poll currently underway as required by Charter Amendment 11.1. If one quarter of the total vote of the Diet agrees that a Council should be formed to decide the succession, then it will be formed and will select the next Chancellor.

Once that process as laid out under CA 11.1 has been resolved - with or without the establishment of a Council - we must follow Edict 11.9. This requires that all the Dukes unaminously agree that the outcome - whatever it is - is satisfactory. If they do not, then there will be a public vote to determine succession.

On the voting powers of the King of Outremer, Charter Amendments 11.3 and 11.4 have introduced an ambiguity in the Charter capable of various interpretations. At the next Diet, it will fall to the Kaiser to adjudicate whether the King of Outremer has three votes or six.

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 01:30

Looking at the Diet Speaker with clear admiration and pointing to him while speaking

Love your work Mr Speaker...Love your work!!!

You should come and work for me. You could replace the 12 or 13 lawyers I have in one swoop!!

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 02:57

Arnold

Not wanting to "jump the gun" as it were...and by the way has anyone seen these new "pistols", amazing things...

...anyway back to business.

The vote seems clear, we have secured 1/4 of the vote to call for a Ducal review.

Edict 11.9 now say that if the result of the Diet is not satisfactory ascension must be agreed on by all Duke then we open it up to another Reich wide vote...

...therefore Dear Dukes we need to have small talk together.

CA 11.7 says if there is a "dispute", which I believe the current succession issues qualifies for, then the dukes or representative must conduct a simple vote with the Kaiser breaking any ties.

Either way the Dukes need to get together as soon as possible to make their voices known.

For the good of the Reich I recommend we do that is fast as possible.

And Ansehelm, can you cease calling for those voting against the Kaiser to be hung!! You have three Dukes and a Prinz using that line of reasoning. And we are not voting against the Kaiser in my view.

PLUS you maniac CA 11.7 implicate you in this process as you are technically a representative!!

I know you are getting ready for your Crusade, but I'd request you turn your aggression towards the Russians.

Stig

07-30-2007, 08:27

I'm sorry for that Arnold, but aggression is building up ... hence why I didn't kill all the Poles at once, that means the fun will be gone at once.
And yes I know that officially I'm still Steward of Franconia and thus am Franconias representative.

Next to that we need a unanimous outcome, and I doubt we'll get that.

(OOC: as said in the OOC thread it might be better to make a thread, otherwise we'll have a full PM box in no time.)

FactionHeir

07-30-2007, 11:38

As Duke Scherer is currently absent, it falls to me to be presiding for Swabia in the council.
I will also bring forth evidence at said meeting.

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 12:21

As Duke Scherer is currently absent, it falls to me to be presiding for Swabia in the council.
I will also bring forth evidence at said meeting.

Raising an eyebrow

When did that happen Hans? When where you named Steward?

And how do you think you can preside in a Council which is about you?

Northnovas

07-30-2007, 13:12

Karl Zirn:

I was really not in favour of a committee to question the Kaiser's succession. But is this not a conflict for you Hans? To be a member of the committee who has direct interest in the outcome. If so, then the Kaiser should also be on this committee to protect his interest. Is Duke Scherer aware of your actions? I would like to hear it officially from him that you are his representative.
There shall be no call of a council till this matter is clearly resolved.

OverKnight

07-30-2007, 13:13

Matthias strokes his beard and thinks.

It would seem to me that one cannot be presenting evidence to the Council and be on the Council at the same time. We all know who would make a claim for the Throne if Siegfried is unseated, Count Hans, and by being on the Council, it would make your own ascension have questionable legitimacy. Meaning, of course, we'd have to invoke CA 11.1 once again.

If Duke Scherer is unavailable, perhaps your brother Elberhard should serve as the representative of Swabia? Or perhaps you would prefer. . .

Matthias's mouth quirks upward in a wry grin.

. . .Wolfgang.

TinCow

07-30-2007, 13:46

*Lothar regards his brother, the Chancellor, with a glare.*

Surely Count Hans' evidence will be judged fairly, whether he represents Swabia or not. If his proof is legitimate, all will recognize it and rule accordingly. If his proof is false, then it will similarly be recognized and the Council will act as it should. We already know that Duke Scherer supports his vassal's claims, so what harm can come from allowing Hans to sit on the Council? Could it be that you are... afraid... that he may present legitimate evidence?

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 13:51

Hans is not part of the Council.

If he has anything to present he can do it here for the Dukes and King to take with them and deliberation on in the Council.

OverKnight

07-30-2007, 14:00

Matthias meets Lothar's glare with one of his own. Fingering the seal of his office, the wry smile returns to his face.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 15:15

Does it bother anyone that it seems that there is only going to be one actual Duke at the "Duke's" council? Instead it will be a "3 Stewards, a King, and a Duke" council. It sounds too much like a title to a child's fable...

When people were voting on CA 11.1, did they know that this would end up being a "Stewards Council"? Do we want our Stewards choosing our Kaiser? Especially when one of our Stewards thinks he is the Kaiser? Furthermore, is that Steward officially a Steward? With all due respect Count Hans, but if you could point out in the Diet transcript where Duke Scherer proclaimed you Steward, I will withdraw that part of my objection. Otherwise, this becomes "2 Stewards, A King, A Count who wants to be Kaiser, and a Duke" council.

If Count Hans is allowed to be on a council, when he is not officially Steward, and present evidence that claims he is the Kaiser, and is then allowed to rule on whether he is the Kaiser, then I do not know how that can be seen as anything other than questionable.

Stig

07-30-2007, 15:31

Hans has been named Steward alright, just as I'm still the ruler of Franconia till my father announces his official return.
However according to CA 11.1:

those not directly involved in the dispute shall be part of the council

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 15:43

I can confirm that there is one Steward, Ansehelm, involved as a replacement and specifically stated by his Duke to replace him.

I am not aware of Duke Scherer's nomination of Hans as Steward, if someone can point that out I would be grateful. Hans is not part of the council for the very wording Ansehelm stated, so Scherer needs to arrive or send word of his representative.

There are two Dukes, a King and one Steward involved as far as I know at this stage.

Muttering under his breath

God, I'm starting to sound like an real administrator now.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 15:44

Pours over Diet transcripts

All I see is that Duke Scherer only said he will be gone a week. He never designated a second. And some of those days have already passed. Surely we can wait a few more until the Dukes come back. Something this serious should be decided by them unless they are to be absent for an extended length of time. Duke Gunther did vote so he is obviously around somewhere. If he needs a few more days to get back into the swing of things, then I am inclined to suggest that we wait. Otherwise, I am afraid that the results of the Council will seem "questionable" to some people and we will just have to do this all over again.

Stig

07-30-2007, 15:49

You have no say about this thing Jan.
As it is I'm Franconia's representative, but I will make sure Gunther gets every letter written, he is back, but since he has been gone for some years it will take some time to catch up for him.
Once he comes walking in here and says he resumes as Duke again he's back, untill that I will seat in the council.

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 15:53

Lords of Franconia,

Both the Steward and the Duke have made their opinions known.

We will be waiting.

Folding his arms scanning the Chamber Arnold leans back and whispers to Grom and Bane. They both leave the chamber immediately.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 15:55

Well, seeing as I can help decide that a succession result by the Council is "questionable", then I do have a say. If this Council sits with anything other than Dukes, or their very clearly designated seconds, then I will declare any result from that Council to be questionable. If we want stability and unquestioned succession, then I urge everyone to wait for all 4 Dukes to be here. If a Duke is going to be gone for weeks or months, then I respectfully implore that Duke to send a letter back here clearly designating the person who will sit in for them.

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 15:59

It's not questionable Jan. The only Steward in the council has had his OWN Duke make his vote known AND specifically nominate him for any further discussions.

Plus, I'm not sure your in a position as one noble to call the result "questionable" until the results are in.

I understand your concerns Jan...but please have patiences.

I'm "ON" the case as it were.

Turning to a page

Drinks!!! Drinks for everyone...and some green tea for Chancellor Matthias.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 16:07

I will have that drink and thank you for offering.

True, Ansehelm is the one person out of the three non-king/dukes that want to be on the council that actually has his Dukes backing to be his second. I guess I have two seperate issues then.

1.) While Ansehelm is Duke Gunther's second, I would feel more at ease if Duke Gunther could sit on the council. If were waiting anyways than it doesn't hurt to wait some more.

2.) I can not find any proof that Counts Lothar and Hans are even designated seconds. As such, I see no reason as to why they should sit on the council at all.

As for my position as one noble. It is true that I can not invoke the Council part of CA 11.1 myself. But, I can already tell you how I would vote if a certain situation were to come to pass. Count Hans and Count Lothar's declarations that they shall sit on the council made me nervous. Ansehelm sitting on the council does not make me nervous. Its just that if our Duke is already seen around these parts voting, then I am assuming he will be with us shortly. Its nothing against Ansehelm at all.

TinCow

07-30-2007, 16:12

*Lothar raises an eyebrow.*

Me? Sit on the Council? Who ever suggested such a thing? My father is still Duke, he is still active, and he has not appointed me or anyone else as Steward of Bavaria. I would happily take up my father's seat on the Council to ensure that this matter was fairly adjudicated, but I have no authority to do that nor do I desire to. I trust that my father will do what is right; he has more wisdom and nobility than most in this Diet.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 16:14

Then I was mistaken about that part of my analysis. You have my apologies and Duke Arnold has called for drinks. Care to have one with us?

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 16:17

I'm not going to go into details Jan, but your point one has been resolved.

Lothar, where is Elberhard?

We have our gentlemen's club invitation this evening...and by god I'm looking forward to it!!!

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 16:19

Alright, then I guess my only remaining issue is the one regarding Count Hans deciding on his own succession to Kaiser. But, as you said, others are on the case and I will just give moral support by drinking liberally. *grin*

TinCow

07-30-2007, 16:26

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 16:34

Well, he is "the lewd" so hopefully he still has it figured out.

OOC: I couldn't help but think of the line from the Three Amigos.

"Together, we...

- Burned the village!

- And...
- Raped the horses!

And we...

- Rode off on the women!"

:beam:

AussieGiant

07-30-2007, 16:41

*Lothar grins.*

I hear that royal bastard has become a bit obsessed with 'chivalry' during his time in the East. Perhaps he will have problems deciding whether to ride to the distress of the tavern wenches, or ride the wenches themselves.

Christ on the Cross Lothar!! Are you serious man!!??

He's gone all "sunshine and flowers" on us has he...that mad wench Beatrice could change his mind I'm sure, she managed to suck that..

Bane re-enters the Chamber at that moment and whispers into the Dukes ear. With conern on his face Arnold turns back to the assembled Lords

Right then another round of drink for everyone!!!

My shout, it's out of the Ducal treasury...Matthais's reforms are having an immediate effect on Venice.

Oh yes, and another green tea for the Chancellor. And make sure it has one of those nice golden tea spoons and some sugar.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 16:45

Looks at poll numbers while drinking

Count Lothar, I'm curious. Is there any reason why you have not yet voted on whether there should be a council? Why not get your opinion on the record? I mean, even Hummel voted.

TinCow

07-30-2007, 17:43

The matter is more than decided whether I vote or not. I see no benefit from proclaiming my stance on the issue.

If you insist that I make my position clear, then I will say this: I support the man who is, by law, the rightful Kaiser.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 17:48

Sets his drink down and looks astonished

No benefit? No benefit!?! Are you joking!?!

You work behind the scenes to engineer a semi-legal coup and you say there would be no benefit to stating your official position? This is unbelievable! Are you afraid to have others know your stance? Are you scared? Worried about what others may think of you? Timid at any possibility of conflict? Quivering because of the mere thought of peer pressure? Are you incapable of naming the man who you think is your rightful ruler? Any man would make his stance known, specific and public. Duke Gunther is still not fully caught up so he is exempt from that statement. But you, I never thought you to be

.....a coward my dear Count Lothar.

Stig

07-30-2007, 17:49

It is clear that you should watch out with what you say Jan. You don't know what happens behind the scenes. Gunther has given me full power over Franconia, and he does trust me. If you don't that's your problem, in a couple of years I will be your duke.
You are far too curious, let the people with the powers use those, it's not in your power to even discuss it.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 17:53

I was not talking to you Ansehelm. Lothar doesn't have the !@#$ to name the man who he thinks is his Kaiser. And despite our differences, we have one thing in common and that is our belief that Kaiser Siegfried is the Kaiser. And the Diet is the very place where we can discuss it. I will not be silenced by peer pressure.

And I should watch what I say? You called for 3 dukes, count Hans, and Hummel to be killed!

Stig

07-30-2007, 17:59

That's something different, I said that before they voted, it's a mere persuasion.
And if Lothar doesn't care who's Kaiser he's quite right, I don't care either, as long as we have one who is seen as Kaiser by everyone.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 18:02

So, you tried to "persuade" 3 dukes, a count, and an elector to vote your way by threatening to kill them?

And since when do you not care who is Kaiser? He's your brother! What has changed so much in the past day or two? And I get the impression that Lothar cares very much who is Kaiser. He just doesn't have the stones to say it up front. All his behind the scenes politicking is confusing him. He doesn't know what he should or should not say in public anymore.

Stig

07-30-2007, 18:05

So, you tried to "persuade" 3 dukes, a count, and an elector to vote your way by threatening to kill them?
Aye, I persuaded some Poles not to fight 2 years ago, they still wanted to fight. So I killed them, I see no problem in that.

I never cared who Kaiser is, sure it would be nice to have your little brother as Kaiser, but who-ever it would/will be I'm loyal to the Reich, not to just one person or the other.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 18:08

So, by the extension of your logic, if you can not persuade the people on the council to vote for Kaiser Siegfried, you will kill them!?! You do realize that you have just threatened four other people with death unless they vote your way. And I am the one that has to watch what I say?

Stig

07-30-2007, 18:11

The words cynic and sarcastic seem to be missing from your dictionary cousin

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 18:15

The question will be if the others find your words "cynical" and "sarcastic". I joke around but not about killing people. And if I intend to kill someone, I just go and try to do it as Duke Arnold can attest to. And he is the same way. We both have whats called....stones. And having stones means you make things clear and then follow through with them.

Stuperman

07-30-2007, 18:28

GeneralHankerchief

07-30-2007, 18:31

Conrad Salier:

Jan, Lothar is most definitely not a coward. His priorities are, sadly, misplaced but one thing he is not is a coward.

Look at me. I abstained from the proceedings but I come off without a blemish. Either paint everybody with the same brush or put the brush away.

TinCow

07-30-2007, 18:49

*Lothar regards Jan with a heavy sigh and inspects his fingernails. It is obvious that he is making a false show of appearing bored.*

Elector von Hamburg, I suggest you consider your words more carefully in the future. Some men, who are less generous than I, would find such comments to be... *He looks Jan in the eye.* ...insulting. I assure you that there are men in this room that you most certainly do not wish to offend. I am, of course, not one of these, but your attitude makes me fear for your safety. Hopefully you will temper your words in the future, for I would not wish any... *Lothar raises an eyebrow.* ...unpleasantness to befall you.

Privateerkev

07-30-2007, 19:04

Oh Elector Lothar, don't bore me with idle veiled threats. I never called you a coward. If everyone read too much into my words, that is certainly not my fault. I simply stated that "I never thought you to be [one]". *shrug* Just a statement, nothing more. Not worth everyone getting into a tizzy about. Ansehelm "jokes" about having Duke Gerhard swing from the gallows and hardly a peep is raised. If "jokes" about killing Dukes is allowed, then surely statements about how people are not cowards are allowed.

My King, you clearly voted. You made a clear definite statement. Lothar did not. Therefore, I would hardly put you and Lothar in the same boat.

Duke Gerhard, Ansehelm joked about you being killed because of the way you voted. I strongly disagree with his...taste of humor.

Stig

07-30-2007, 20:15

We're German, it's common knowledge we have no taste of humour.
Long have I wanted to add the famous jester Lord John of Cleese to my retinue, he should be able to spark up Germany, but unluckely even he sees no future in it.

econ21

07-31-2007, 00:33

Elberhard: I understand that a Council of the Dukes and King of Outremer is meeting to discuss the succession. While I respect their decision to meet in secret, as there are some sights too unedifying to be exposed to public view, I do humbly request that the members of the Council at least be made known.

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 01:42

Arnold

Elberhard, there you are!!??

You're asking very sobering questions aren't you?

The Council is discussing things before making a formal apperance here in the Diet.

Participating is:

King Sailer

Duke Steffen

Duke Scherer

Duke Gunther, with his Steward Ansehelm who was personally selected to fill in for Duke Gunther after an initial round of disucssions...

...and my self.

econ21

07-31-2007, 03:03

Elberhard: Thank you, Duke Arnold. Sadly, alcohol and the sun of Outremer do not mix well, which may account for both the Mohammedans' rantings against wine and for my sobriety. One might imagine that the fate of our Head of State is a matter for sober reflection, but no doubt such plebian imaginings are beneath the concern of the leaders of our great Houses. But regardless, your swift and clear answer to my sober question will ease some of the misgivings felt in some quarters about this Council.

I would also like to take this opportunity to explain why I voted against your marriage edict. It is not because I wished to deny you the chance of procreation. I am sure the world would be greatly enriched by lots of mini-Arnolds, running around with their own infant berserkers and pre-pubescent dread knights. Although perhaps the good folk, or is ex-folk, of Budapest may disagree on that.

No, I opposed the Edict because I did not understand it. If it merely concerned finding a wife for you, I could not see why old elephant balls would require legislation to achieve that. (Although perhaps the good women of Germany have become more discerning since I departed.) And if it concerned the Kaiser ordering a Princess to enter your bed, then rest assured, my opposition would not stem from any concern for the welfare of the poor Princess in question. Rather it would be that such an edict would have been yet another infringement on the already fast diminishing power and authority of our Head of State.

However, you can rest easy that on that Edict - as on many other laws in the last Diet session - I seemed to stand alone, rather like one of those crazed desert prophets of Outremer, crying woe and damnation while the rest of the world sleep walks about and conducts its normal business.

Oh dear, I fear I am sounding too sober yet again, so I will shut the @#$%^&!!! up.

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 03:44

Arnold

Shaking his head in rueful amusment

Yes, Outremer is having a rather profound affect on you.

Maybe I should come out on an inspection tour and you can show me around.?

The fact you swore once, and only after a long and meaningful speech worries the hell out of me.

Pre-pubescent's a little harsh don't you think? He's a lovely fellow when you get to know him.

Budapest was left entirely unharmed in the storming...something that seems to have gone completely unrealised. I killed the Hungarian's who invaded not the citizens of Budapest. (OOC: I occupied the settlement after I took it, not sacking or exterminating)

I agree with you about our Head of State and also the Chancellors position. Everyone seems to want a piece of the action. Still, with so many edicts available to use I get the impression people have too much to think on and request. As I've mentioned before with fewer edicts and CA slots the meddling can be reduced.

Sadly I also seem to be the only one that can see this at the moment.

If you reduce your squires answers to three words or less, you get far less specific answers.

If you let him speak for hours he'll tell you every little detail that is going on and what he would like.

More edicts, more details and more restrictions. Less edict, less details less topics for micro-management, more leeway for the Kaiser and the Chancellor.

The only reason I put it in was because I had the opportunity to and the lords of Austria where happy with the House Edict and had no more suggestions.

Pausing for a moment

I too seem to be sobering up.

DRINKS!!

And some ice tea for the Chancellor, with those little cubes of frozen water also...something cool and refreshing for him.

Mabye you might try it too Elberhard?

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 04:05

Jan wakes up after being slumped over his table. His head picks up from the pile of legislation that served as pillow. Copies of edicts are still stuck to his face due to the drool.

Ugh, I heard some of that. Has anyone realized that for there to be infant berserkers and pre-pubescent dread knights, that they have to mate? No offense to them but the geometry of Grom mating boggles the mind. And the last word that pops in my head when Bane is mentioned is "intimate".

After picturing what he has said, Jan shudders and gulps down the rest of his beer.

Oh man, thats going to leave nightmares...

OverKnight

07-31-2007, 04:55

Matthias raises an eyebrow at the mention of a "soft" drink.

Duke Arnold, I am a "sensible drinker", not a temperance man. I'm just not in a state of constant and profound inebriation.

I am glad a state of relative decorum has returned to these chambers. I was about to dust off the old "This is the Diet, not a tavern" line we've heard so many times.

The Chancellor's office has conducted a thorough search of the Reich for a suitable wife for the Duke. The leading candidate at this point is the youngest daughter of Gunther of Eichstadt and his lovely wife Bertha, who I believe is named Bertha as well. She is Holk of a woman, but has quite an impressive dowry, and she is quite determined to meet you Duke Arnold.

Matthias begins coughing.

My apologies, I seem to have an imbalance of the humors.

He drinks from a small vial and the coughing trails off.

Ah, the laudanum is the only thing that seems to help. Wonderful stuff from the East.

econ21

07-31-2007, 09:41

Elberhard: Duke Arnold, on the matter of Budapest and perhaps on other matters, I owe you an apology. Thankfully for the misguided citizens of that city, it seems that the your reputation for being merciless was at least on that occasion somewhat exaggerated.

@#$%^&!!! it, the next round is on me!

FactionHeir

07-31-2007, 10:06

Duke Scherer announced me his Steward in writing shortly before he left for urgent business.
If my presence as a voter on the council is not desired, I would not mind postponing the vote until he returns, although the evidence that will be presented would not leave much room for doubt I believe.

I would also like to call on all members of the diet to please remain calm and observe peace on the diet floor. Insults against the persona are not desired here.

Stig

07-31-2007, 11:41

I prefer to get on with it. Duke Scherer is on holiday for now (they say the costa is good at this time of the year). The problem Hans is that the whole council is about you, it will be hard to have you in it as well. I suggest that as Steward you send another Swabian to the council, preferably Elberhard as he has been around in politics longer than Wolfgang. However Elberhard also has to do with this as he would be the Prinz, and the same goes for Wolfgang who kinda started this all.

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 11:42

Where in a bit of a bind then Lord Hans.

You can't sit on the council as the law specifically prevents that. If Duke Scherer is not going to be available for sometime then I suggest you select another Swabian Noble and have him contact me and present your information.

Elberhard,

I'm glad you realise I didn't kill one last man jack of those citizens in Budapest.

The rebel army was wiped out and so where the following three Hungarian armies.

As for drinks, does the bar serve Vodka these days?

Lord Chancellor,

Ahhh, are these people German, or from another world?

Can you please have her details forwarded to my office for consideration? (OOC: Can you post her stats up in the OOC thread).

As my father said once:

"Don't go sticking your todger in any old thing."

I wouldn't want him to be disappointed in me. Plus...who the hell IS Gunther of Eichstadt?

Sitting numbly down

Bertha...who the hell woudl call their daughter Bertha?!

econ21

07-31-2007, 12:39

Elberhard: As I owe my position as Prinz to Kaiser Siegfried, I clearly cannot serve on the Council.

Wolfgang Hummel may have strong opinions on the succession, but has no material interest in the subject and so would not be disqualified from sitting on the Council if my brother, the Steward of Swabia, wishes him to serve in his stead.

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 13:09

Arnold

Slamming his fist down onto the bench in frustration, Arnold's demenour momentarily takes on his Merciless reputation.

Well someone from Swabia has to sit on the damn council!!

Elberhard, please have someone contact me as soon as possible from House Swabia and please make sure Steward Hans sends me a note supporting the person's status.

Christ on the cross, when did I ever volunteer to run this council!!??

FactionHeir

07-31-2007, 13:33

Wolfgang Hummel is hereby confirmed as the representative of Swabia.

As I am to put forth evidence to the council and Siegfried will surely wish to defend himself, I kindly ask that myself and Siegfried may speak openly to the Ducal representatives in the private chambers of the diet.

Stig

07-31-2007, 13:43

No this is a ducal (well sort of) council. We come with our opinions on the matter, we bring the arguments. Would everyone be able to speak it wouldn't be a ducal council.
As it is going now Wolfgang is to contact it, or atleast contact Arnold, as he seems to have taken up the job of running it and make his vote.
He has to vote on who he wants as Kaiser, we have had some contact and brought up arguments who is to become Kaiser and why. Wolfgang is to do the same, and explain why he votes for a certain person.
After a couple of days we will come and bring forth the results in this Diet.

TinCow

07-31-2007, 13:45

Steward Ansehelm, are you saying that the Ducal Council will not even review Count Hans' evidence and witnesses?

Stig

07-31-2007, 13:49

Oh it surely will, if it needs to. I'm not going to share too much information with it, but as it's now the Council isn't divided, there's no need for evidence yet.
If it is needed it should be brought by people in the Council, as I said, it's supposed to be a Council with only 5 people, not the entire Diet.

OverKnight

07-31-2007, 14:19

Matthias furrows his brows.

If Hans has evidence it should be presented to the Council (Through a PM). This does not mean that he should take part in the deliberations, only that his side should have a chance to present its evidence, since we have already heard the evidence supporting Siegfried's claim.

If the Council won't allow this, I would suggest that Hans presents his evidence in the Diet, I'm sure word of it will make it's way to the Council.

Stig

07-31-2007, 14:37

As I said, as it is now there's no need for evidence, as the everyone who has voted has voted for the same person. The Council doesn't disagree on who should become Kaiser yet. Why would it need evidence in that case?

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 14:54

Arnold

Chancellor, Lords of the Realm

I think I need to be clear here gentlemen,

The council is not waiting on anyone to present evidence in a formalised manner. This is not being run like a court and we are not lawyers. We have decisions to make and that is all that is being discussed. The Legislation asks for a decision not how, edict 11.9 asks for any decision to be unanimous so if ours isn't it will then come into effect on a Reich wide vote.

Let be clear men.

We are talking about our Kaiser!!

Whoever that shall be by the grace of god NEEDS to be done with urgency or will risk being taken for fools by the rest of Europe and abroad!! I am Merciless and there is good reason for it in many instances.

Our enemies will look for any weakness and this WHOLE thing is starting to look like we are bunch of petty fools fighting over scraps of food like rabid dogs!!

There's been more than enough bureaucracy to kill a horse as far as I'm concerned, action is needed and decisions made otherwise our enemies will take advantage of us.

Decisions are being made already and as soon as the final votes are cast there will be an announcement.

If there is anything to present do it now. The only time line is when all votes are collected and that has started.

Hans can present publicly or privately to me and Wolfgang is the voter for Swabia.

All I'm doing is managing whether this council is going to be unanimous or not. As soon as it isn't...then we have a result anyway as part of the legislation and edict 11.9 can then proceed.

Hans,

I have sent you a note.

You can determine whether presenting it publicly or privately is best and whether it is better to present it now or later.

Wolfgang,

Please cast your vote to me as soon as possible.

Arnold sits looking around the chamber with a look of conviction

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 15:33

Jan wakes up from sleeping on his table. Copies of legislation are scattered about all over the floor. He wakes up groggy and rubs his eyes.

So, let me get this straight, if you lead a fizzled revolution to overthrow the sitting Kaiser, you get to be one of five people that vote on who is the Kaiser. I think I need another drink...

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 15:34

Grining at Jan, Arnold shakes his head in amusement

Stig

07-31-2007, 15:46

Unluckely Jan, all the Swabians seem to be a bit controversial, it's funny tho

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 15:47

Jan sits on the edge of the table hunched over with a open palm to his forehead.

Ansehelm is right. Well, Duke Scherer would be a fine choice but he is busy on state business. And the Prince gave good reasons as to why he can't.

Look, I know we need someone from Swabia to sit on the Council. And I know the matter is decided but I want to say this anyways. How can Ebelhard, who normally is a well thought out, if colorful individual, claim that Hummel has no material interest on the subject when he just attempted to lead a revolution against the sitting Kaiser? I know we tend to be quite forgiving around here towards our nobles but that one should give most people pause.

Says the next in a half joking manner

I almost wish we could just wait for Kaiser Jobst's son to come of age. Heck even now he would be more objective than Hummel.

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 15:56

Arnold

Agreed but both houses involved can be regarded as biased. Both would prefer the Kaiser to be from their house.

Scherer is away, Hans is steward and Wolfgang has been nominated as Swabia's representative.

He needs to vote.

Stig

07-31-2007, 15:57

Let me put it like this:
This is an official Council, in it's views are objective, not subjective. I take it that Hummel will do all he can to be objective as well. If he isn't that's his problem, that will mean we might get a vote by all Electors, and from the last vote we've seen that most seem to support my little brother.

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 16:00

Your right Ansehelm. I guess all we can do at this point is wait. And drink while waiting. Well, we could argue while waiting. But, I rather drink while waiting.

says this with a slight smile.

TinCow

07-31-2007, 16:00

*Lothar cocks an eyebrow at Jan once again.*

If Wolfgang Hummel has a material interest in this matter because he has openly expressed support for Count Hans, then surely every person who has openly expressed support for Kaiser Siegfried also has a material interest in it. Following that line of reasoning, it would appear that the only men competent to sit on this council are those who did not express any opinion on the matter whatsoever. I note with irony that that currently includes only myself and the King of Outremer.

Stig

07-31-2007, 16:03

Actually Lothar both you and Herr Salier expressed support for the Kaiser in this Diet, I suggest going back through the notes.

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 16:05

Lothar, I do agree that everyone but you and the King have voted for a specific person. But, the rest of us have not attempted to lead revolutions against the Kaiser as Hummel has clearly done. I did not think we would get so desperate for a Swabian delegate, that we would let a failed revolutionary vote on whether the man he tried to revolt against should stay in power. I know we are out of options but I am kind of depressed that we are out of options.

I need coffee...

And Ansehelm, Lothar has stated a few times that he supports who the law will say is Kaiser. While I might not agree with his stance, I have found him to be ideologically consistent.

TinCow

07-31-2007, 16:06

Ansehelm, yes, I proclaimed my loyalty to Kaiser Siegfried, as he is the sitting Kaiser. I will always be loyal to the sitting Kaiser, whoever that may be. I have not, however, expressed any opinion as to whether he or Hans holds a better claim to the throne.

Jan, I suggest you concern yourself more with the affairs of your own House, rather than trying to interfere in the manner in which Swabia is run.

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 16:13

I am concerned with matters concerning my own house. My father and uncle are going to pass soon. This makes me sad. But, I have no problem with how Swabia is run. The Duke would be the best choice to have on this council but he is busy. I am simply concerned that a man who attempted to lead an armed insurrection against a sitting Kaiser is now allowed to decide the fate of that Kaiser. With all due respect Count Lothar, I will decide which affairs I will concern myself with. We are in the Diet and we are supposed to concern ourselves with all of the Reich, not just one or two regions.

Now where is that coffee...

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 16:18

Arnold

As much as I find it concerning that Wolfgang is now the Swabian representative, I'd like to point out that he is hardly going to decide the fate of the Kaiser by himself.

He has one vote representing Swabia. That's all.

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 16:19

Thats true. I'm just voicing my concern and opinion. I'm not saying the sky is falling or anything. The irony of the whole situation both fills me with dread and makes me chuckle.

AussieGiant

07-31-2007, 16:22

Sure, this is the same man who has reportedly come out in open rebellion against the sitting Kaiser.

It's a little mad...but nothing like being in battle.

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 16:24

In some ways being in battle is easier. Things are more clear. There is a definite "other" to define and then take action against. This stuff gets confusing but I think I'm figuring it out a little...

Cecil XIX

07-31-2007, 17:30

On another note...

If Han's evidence is to presented to the council via proxy, how is Kaiser Siegfried to defend himself? Will he be given a transcript of the evidence, and the discussion surrounding it? Will he be allowed to speak to Hans and the council personally concerning the matter? It is essential to the legitimacy of this council that Kaiser Siegfried is able to see all the evidence against him and face his accuser.

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 17:34

While I agree in spirit, Duke Arnold has made clear that this is not a court of law. CA 11.1 allowed for the set up of a Duke Council. How they run it, is largely up to them. To me, it will be legitimate if Kaiser Siegfried excepts what ever the outcome is.

Stig

07-31-2007, 18:26

I suggest that Count Hans brings forth the evidence he has here in this Diet, would the Council not agree and a vote be held by all Electors it might be usefull. Next to that I think that the entire Reich wants to know what Count Hans will bring forth to support his cause.

Tamur

07-31-2007, 19:04

Fritz follows the turns of the debate while fingering the cross hanging on a light chain around his neck. As conversation quiets, he sniffs and leans back in his chair.

I think it may be the case that Jan -- with the keen eye I've often heard of -- has penetrated to the heart of a grave matter. It is all legitimate if Kaiser Siegfried accepts the outcome of the council.

Of course, I've known Siegfried for years as a brother and would never suspect him of turning his back on the decision of the council. But fellow members, we are speaking of the greatest nation on earth, and the direct inheritance of the Roman Empire. One has only to look back in history to see where such strife as we have here can lead.

Fritz quietly clears his throat, calls over a scribe, then leaves the room.

Privateerkev

07-31-2007, 19:13

Jan smiles broadly at seeing his cousin for the first time in many years.

I was wondering when Fritz was finally going to get active in politics. I wish my own brother and brothers-in-law would take his example.

AussieGiant

08-01-2007, 00:55

Arnold

My Lords,

I'm aware this is a little difficult as all of you are not involved.

I can assure you the Dukes, the King and the proxies are handling this is very well.

Without meaning to be rude...

"someone scoff's at this rather loudly in the Diet Chamber"

....AS I SAID, without meaning to be rude, this is not a Roman Senate from 300BC.

Hans,

again, I urge you to present the information you have as soon as possible.

Privateerkev

08-01-2007, 02:13

Jan reads the results of the Dukes Council

My Kaiser, King, Dukes, Counts, and Electors,

First off I want to thank the Duke Council for their service in these troubled times. They have made hard decisions with little evidence very fast and under pressure to produce a result. They are to be commended.

Second, I am pleased with the findings of the Dukes Council. However, and this leads me to my third point;

I am afraid that Edict 11.9 was quite explicit in requiring all Dukes to agree. Now that one has not, I believe it will activate. Which means that the Diet Speaker should set up a poll for the Diet to vote on regarding succession. If I am wrong in my interpretation of the law, then some one please let me know. Otherwise, it looks like this is not over yet.

I do not want there to be any doubt as to who is Kaiser. And I am afraid that if we refuse to activate Edict 11.9, then that one Duke, and those who agree with him will have ammunition to sow doubt in the minds of the rest of the electors. We need to put this fully behind us for good gentlemen.

Thank you.