Slowly comming to our senses

[Fragony]

Good article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/22/AR2007062202015.html

"In the past, we looked at legal prostitution as a women's liberation issue; now it's looked at as exploitation of women and should be stopped,"

Goodbye seventies; the must change as long as something changes attitude,
thanks for the memories. I salute our new christian overlords.

[Watchman]

Ahh, some things never change.

[Slyspy]

Strange how similar different religions can be isn't it?

[Geoffrey S]

To sum it up, a politically diverse country is becoming united behind conservative values because of a common fear of immigrants? Sounds creepy.

[Watchman]

History has a funny habit of repeating itself.

[BigTex]

History has a funny habit of repeating itself.

And at a time Europe has seen fit to slowly disarm itself to allow more funds for their socialistic ideals. Couldnt be a better time for a strong Netherlands to sweep through Europe and clean up the liberal bastion of sin and depravity. But it looks like they first have to start with the Netherlands.

Always thought the brothels and marijuana is what made the Netherlands unique, quite sad.

[Fragony]

To sum it up, a politically diverse country is becoming united behind conservative values because of a common fear of immigrants? Sounds creepy.

ehh? :inquisitive:

Article is about progressive idea's finally becomming less popular.

[Geoffrey S]

Because the nation as a whole is being confronted by such issues as the immigrant problem and people revert back to reactive conservatism as the lowest common denominator in an attempt to form a homogenous block opposing such perceived threats, rather than trusting the more varied political spectrum which has functioned in easier times. That is what lies behind the article, and it is hinted at on the first page.

[Fragony]

That is what lies behind the article

//mubles something about eye of the beholder

No it doesn't, here is the crux; "People in high political circles are saying it can't be good to have a society so liberal that everything is allowed," Article says we have the same ethnic problems as other nations, and then comes the 'But'.

Less liberal when it comes to drugs, prostitution, and yes, also immigration. So less liberal is now reactionary conservatism?

'rethinking its anything-goes policies.'

[Geoffrey S]

And how do those people in high political circles get voted into positions where they actually can do reinstate conservative values? :inquisitive:

People saying there is a need for values imply that there is a need for a homogenous set of values, at the moment values that protect some perceived form of Dutchness. Voters are rallying behind that.

Heck, looking back at the article it says it almost literally:

Today, with an orthodox Christian political party in the government for the first time, and with immigration anxieties fueling a national search for identity, the country that has been the world's most socially liberal political laboratory is rethinking its anything-goes policies.
...although it doesn't go as far as stating that the search for identity and values led to the Christian parties in the government, which I believe is the case. After the nineties, Holland is reverting back to the Christian-democrats who set the tone in almost all governments before, who aim to turn back a number of changes made; hence my lable of 'reactionary'.

Immigration is the wagon used to gain votes by more conservative parties; once they have the votes, they can focus their attention on their other main concerns such as drugs and prostition, not necessarily the issues they were voted in for.

[Fragony]

The Netherlands is going through the same racial, ethnic and religious metamorphosis as the rest of Western Europe: Large influxes of black, Arab and Muslim immigrants are changing the social complexion of an overwhelmingly white, Christian nation struggling with its loss of homogeneity.

But here those anxieties are exacerbated by alarm over the international crime organizations that have infiltrated the country's prostitution and drug trades, the increasing prevalence of trafficking in women and children across its borders, and dismay over the Netherlands' image as an international tourist destination for drugs and sexual debauchery.

"There is an uneasiness about globalization that the Dutch don't have control over their own country anymore," said James C. Kennedy, professor of contemporary history at the Free University of Amsterdam. "There is a more conservative mood in the country that is interested in setting limits and making sure things don't get out of hand."

[Shaka_Khan]

I better visit the Netherlands before it goes conservative, not that I plan to take drugs or have sex.

[CrossLOPER]

Throwing blame on societies' ills, all the while driving drug use and sexual services underground, because politicians are unable to deal with immigration issues? Sounds EXTREMELY familiar...

[Fragony]

Throwing blame on societies' ills, all the while driving drug use and sexual services underground, because politicians are unable to deal with immigration issues? Sounds EXTREMELY familiar...

That the article is about that begins to sound extremily familiar :dizzy2:

Did somebody put glue on the word immigrant just above the outrage padel? It's about an end of the glory to the laisez faire mentality. Where, exactly, is said what you describe?

[HoreTore]

I better visit the Netherlands before it goes conservative, not that I plan to take drugs or have sex.

I do believe it'll still be legal to have sex in Holland for quite some time....

[Watchman]

That the article is about that begins to sound extremily familiar :dizzy2:

Did somebody put glue on the word immigrant just above the outrage padel? It's about an end of the glory to the laisez faire mentality. Where, exactly, is said what you describe?Oh come on. What other "threat" to the supposed fundamental "Dutch identity" there factually is except the (for some people) uncomfortable fact there's a whole lot of people, you know, not of Dutch origin and cultural background living in the country these days ? People different from "us proper Dutch" if you see what I mean ?

Okay, maybe McDonald's and Mickey Mouse too, but they won decades ago already.

So typical of societies struggling with unmanageable and unpopular (not to mention incomprehensible, at least to Joe Q. Public) developements it's not even funny - falling back to moralist reactionarism. I wonder if the pelvic swing of Elvis becomes a hot topic again one of these days...?

[Geoffrey S]

I wonder if the pelvic swing of Elvis becomes a hot topic again one of these days...?
Heh, more like Manhunt 2.

[Fragony]

Oh come on. What other "threat" to the supposed fundamental "Dutch identity" there factually is except the (for some people) uncomfortable fact there's a whole lot of people, you know, not of Dutch origin and cultural background living in the country these days ? People different from "us proper Dutch" if you see what I mean ?


You have to understand that the dutch identity used to be the country with free drugs prostitution and limitless immigration, that was according to these idiots in the seventies the highest ackomplishment ever achieved. The organised crime the articles refers to, are dutch/jewish crime syndicates, immigrants have little to do with that, and the article doesn't even imply that. What used to be the highest thing ever achieved has outlasted it's welcome, not because of immigration, but because of overreacting, taking the anything goes too far.

[Slyspy]

No, the article does in fact imply it. DOesn't state it, but does imply it.

I myself see a problem caused by underfunded, ineffectual and/or incompetent law enforcement agencies, possibly coupled to (or caused by) weak regulatory frameworks.

Edit:

Change your famous liberal Dutch ways and you might as well be Belgium.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

So your response to organised crime being involved in prostitution and drugs is to put stricter controls on them? Good luck with that.

[Fragony]

Well we kinda have been taken hostage by an idealists, it is never enough you see. The idea that change is always for the better is losing popularity. We have come a long way but enough is enough, people think we are so progressive but we are not, most dutchies are pretty conservative people, the use of cannabis is being frowned upon (lowest of europe in fact), so is going to the hookers. Seems like politics is catching up, rather late. Coffeeshops aren't going to be closed, because it works. Prostitution will remain legal, not that I like that, but it will.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I liked the part where the conservatives were criticized for threatening "established norms".

I love articles like that, Frag

[Del Arroyo]

Anyone who thinks that cannabis and prostitution is what makes Holland unique is ignorant.

[Husar]

Anyone who thinks that cannabis and prostitution is what makes Holland unique is ignorant.
Yeah, she/he obviously forgot about the clogs.

[Ronin]

well......I better get my ass to Amsterdam before it gets ruined then!:furious3:

[Fragony]

Anyone who thinks that cannabis and prostitution is what makes Holland unique is ignorant.

Well that is what progressive people teach at the schools from day one. Ask any young dutchman who just rolled out the red machine what makes us unique, and they will say hookers and drugs.

Hmmmoh, red rats in education don't even get me started.

[Idaho]

The prostitution issue is a tricky one. However with regard to drugs, and sex education, Holland has been very successful in harm minimisation. The country is still a model of what the rest of the world should be trying.

UK: Very little sex education and only at 12
Holland: Lots of sex education at a much younger age

UK: Highest child pregnancy rates in europe
Holland: Lowest child pregnancy rates in europe
_____________________________________________

UK: No provision of heroin to addicts
Holland: Provision of heroin to addicts

UK: Highest heroin problem in Europe
Holland: Lowest heroin problem in Europe
____________________________________

UK: Cannabis illegal - one of the highest rates of cannabis usage*
Holland: Cannabis tolerated - one of the lowest rates

*strangely enough (or maybe not strange) useage in the UK has dropped slightly since the drug has been downgraded.

[Adrian II]

(..) the dutch identity used to be the country with free drugs prostitution and limitless immigration, that was according to these idiots in the seventies the highest ackomplishment ever achieved.Eh? As a Dutchman who actually lived the seventies I remember nothing of the sort. Alleviating the abuse and misery associated with drug abuse and classic prostitution was a seventies policy priority, certainly. And we succeeded to a large extent. But they were never regarded as the touchstone of Dutch achievement.

Immigration was not an issue in the seventies, one way or the other.

Nowadays organised crime and immigration have become interwoven in various ways, no need to drag national identity into the equation.
(..) dutch/jewish crime syndicates (..)Dutch-Jewish gangs are trafficking drugs, women and children? Ah hahaha. Man, where did you get that nonsense?

[Idaho]

Where does he get any of his nonsense? Pieces it together from scraps of News Corp publications he finds shredded up in the woods.

[Fragony]

Eh? As a Dutchman who actually lived the seventies I remember nothing of the sort. Alleviating the abuse and misery associated with drug abuse and classic prostitution was a seventies policy priority, certainly. And we succeeded to a large extent. But they were never regarded as the touchstone of Dutch achievement.

Immigration was not an issue in the seventies, one way or the other.

Indeed. We are describing the same mindset, you think it's good and I don't.


Nowadays organised crime and immigration have become interwoven in various ways, no need to drag national identity into the equation.Dutch-Jewish gangs are trafficking drugs, women and children? Ah hahaha. Man, where did you get that nonsense?

Oh common, everybody knows Israel/Amsterdam is the human trafficking-line. They come from Russia, then Turkey (natashas), Israel ----> Netherlands. Drugs is us dutchies mostly.

[Adrian II]

We are describing the same mindset, you think it's good and I don't.You have the right to your own views, not to your own facts (Lemur dixit). Yes, we were largely succesful. And no, free drugs and free prostitution were not the alpha and omega of the nineteen-seventies ' liberation'.
Oh common, everybody knows Israel/Amsterdam is the human trafficking-line. They come from Russia, then Turkey (natashas), Israel ----> Netherlands. Drugs is us dutchies mostly.All I can find is the infamous case of a child pornography ring, dismantled in 1998, which had some members in Israel as well as in The Netherlands, Germany, Russia, the U.S. and several other nations.

There are no specifics on a Jewish trade in women and children, unless of course we turn to certain German newspapers from the nineteen-thirties. And we don' t want to do that and get another nice thread locked, do we?

[Reverend Joe]

Ah, damnit. And here, Holland was supposed to be my Alamo, the last bastion of free drug use. Now we are royally screwed.

The prostitutes, though, I could do without.

[Fragony]

There are no specifics on a Jewish trade in women and children, unless of course we turn to certain German newspapers from the nineteen-thirties. And we don' t want to do that and get another nice thread locked, do we?

Oww, did I say the J word? 'Israel human trafficking' in google was all it took...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129157,00.html

And Amsterdam is where they end up.

[Adrian II]

Oww, did I say the J word? 'Israel human trafficking' in google was all it took...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129157,00.html

And Amsterdam is where they end up.You are mixing things up. There are Eastern European women who have been lured to Israel and into Israeli prostitution because until recently that country had no laws that cover this sort of practice. They stay there.

And then there are the Eastern European women lured to Amsterdam and other European capitals, who come by train and car over land.

Of course there are still idiots (and theire websites) who want to make us believe in the Great Jewish White Slave Trade. Yawn yawn.

[Husar]

And I was already wondering why anyone would send eastern european women to Israel first and to europe later, doesn't make no sense at all.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yeah, she/he obviously forgot about the clogs.

:laugh4:

I love the Backroom.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

So, are people in Holland still going to see illegal prostitutes trafficked from Eastern Europe, instead of going to legal brothels? Or are these indentured girls somehow working out of legal brothels?

I thought legalisation normally prevented this sort of thing.

[Slyspy]

Only if the regulation is strict and enforced, which it may not be. I suspect this is the true problem.