View Full Version : Chalkaspides and Chrysaspides
Hi.
I've been making some research about the Seleucid armies and came to this French site: http://www.stratisc.org/partenaires/cfhm/rihm/82/RIHM_82_BARRAL.html. In there, and noticed that the Seleucids used 3 levels of phalangites:
1. Chalkaspides (Bronze Shields)
2. Argyraspides (Silver Shields)
3. Chrysaspides (Golden Shields)
In EB, the first 2 levels are represented (although the Chalkaspides are only used by Pontus and in the Successor States and Makedonia they are replaced by the Pezhetairoi). However, the Chrysaspides are not represented at all. Also, it seems that the Seleucids adopted the name Chalkaspides instead of Pezhetairoi.
Was this an intentional choice of the EB designers or their sources did not give enough importance to these phalangites? According to the French site above, the Chrysaspides were very numerous.
Thanks for your comments.
Well, keep in mind your source is from one random internet site. It's hard to make decisions based on such flimsy evidence. I, for example, have never heard of the "Golden Shields" outside of this website you have.
I recall that RTR had all three of those for Seleucids, plus Pezhetairoi if I remember correctly. I once tried googling Chrysaspides but the only hits I got were in french, so there ended my crusade.
Pah! That's RTR :thumbsdown:
QwertyMIDX
07-04-2007, 16:48
Wow, that fellow is really stretching his sources...the only mention of that is from a passage in Polybius where he is describing a parade and games. I'll put up the passage (and the greek for the line in question).
Games celebrated by Antiochus IV
25 This same king when he heard of the games celebrated in Macedonia by Aemilius Paullus the Roman general, ambitious of surpassing Paullus in magnificence sent out embassies and sacred missions to the towns to announce the games he was about to give at Daphne, so that people in Greece were very eager to visit Antioch then. 2 The festival opened with a procession composed as follows: 3 It was headed by five thousand men in the prime of life armed after the Roman fashion and wearing breastplates of chain-armour. Next came five thousand Mysians, 4 and immediately behind them three thousand Cilicians armed in the manner of light infantry, wearing gold crowns. 5 Next came three thousand Thracians and five thousand Gauls. They were followed by twenty thousand Macedonians of whom ten thousand bore golden shields, five thousand brazen shields and the rest silver shields. 6 Next marched two hundred and fifty pairs of gladiators, and behind them a thousand horsemen from Nisa and three thousand from Antioch itself, most of whom had crowns and trappings of gold and the rest trappings of silver. Next to these came the so‑called "companion cavalry," numbering about a thousand, all with gold trappings, and next the regiment of "royal friends" of equal number and similarly accoutred; next a thousand picked horse followed by the so‑called "agema", supposed to be the crack cavalry corps, numbering about a thousand. Last of all marched the "cataphract" or mailed horse, the horses and men being armed in complete mail, as the name indicated. All the above wore purple surcoats in many cases embroidered with gold and heraldic designs. 11 Next came a hundred chariots drawn by six horses and forty drawn by four horses, and then a chariot drawn by four elephants and another drawn by a pair, and finally thirty-six elephants in single file with their housings.
12 It is a difficult task to describe the rest of the procession but I must attempt to give its main features. About eight hundred young men wearing gold crowns made part of it as well as about a thousand fat cattle and nearly three hundred cows presented by the various sacred missions and eight hundred ivory tusks. 13 The vast quantity of images it is impossible to enumerate. For representations of all the gods and spirits mentioned or worshipped by men and of all the heroes were carried along, some gilded and others draped in garments embroidered with gold, and they were all accompanied by representations executed in precious materials of the myths relating to them as traditionally narrated. 15 Behind them came images of Night and Day, of Earth and Heaven, and of Dawn and Midday. 16 The quantity of gold and silver plate may be estimated from what follows. The slaves of one of the royal "friends," Dionysius, the private secretary, marched along carrying articles of silver plate none of them weighing less than a thousand drachmae, 17 and six hundred of the king's own slaves went by bearing articles of gold plate. Next there were about two hundred women sprinkling the crowd with perfumes from golden urns, 18 and these were followed by eighty women seated in litters with golden feet and five hundred in litters with silver feet, all richly dressed. 19 Such were the more remarkable features of the procession.
epi de toutois Thraikes trischilioi kai Galatai pentakischilioi. toutois epeballon Makedones dismurioi kai chalkaspides pentakischilioi, alloi de arguraspides, hois epêkolouthei monomachôn zeugê diakosia tettarakonta.
As you can see from the greek, Chrysaspides is a made-up word. In fact I don't see anything about people with gold shields at all, but my greek is pretty awful (i.e. nearly non-existent at this point) so there's a good chance I'm missing something. Second, considering that Cilician light infantry is showing up with gold crowns, I think we can safely assumes these folks aren't in battle dress. Argyraspides and Chalkaspides (at least in the case of Pontus) are mentioned elsewhere, so they have some corroborating evidence, but there is nothing about Chrysaspides here or anywhere else. Further, the hierarchy this guy created is pretty much completely without base. It sure as hell doesn't come from this passage.
Next to these came the so‑called "companion cavalry," numbering about a thousand, all with gold trappings, and next the regiment of "royal friends" of equal number and similarly accoutred; next a thousand picked horse followed by the so‑called "agema", supposed to be the crack cavalry corps, numbering about a thousand.
Polybius himself seems quite unreliable, trying to downplay the Seleucid elites. I bet the shield list is also downplayed. The real list probably went "gold shields", "platinum shields" and "rhodium shields".
QwertyMIDX
07-04-2007, 17:05
Polybius himself seems quite unreliable, trying to downplay the Seleucid elites. I bet the shield list is also downplayed. The real list probably went "gold shields", "platinum shields" and "rhodium shields".
That's mostly a product of the way the translator was rendering things. Here's a different english translation (you'll also note the absence of gold shields, just like I pointed out in the greek).
When this same king (Antiochus Epiphanes) heard of the
The grand festival held by Antiochus Epiphanes at Daphne, a suburb of Antioch, sacred to Apollo.
games in Macedonia held by the Roman proconsul Aemilius Paulus, wishing to out do Paulus by the splendour of his liberality, he sent envoys to the several cities announcing games to be held by him at Daphne; and it became the rage in Greece to attend them. The public ceremonies began with a procession composed as follows: first [p. 426] came some men armed in the Roman fashion, with their coats made of chain armour, five thousand in the prime of life. Next came five thousand Mysians, who were followed by three thousand Cilicians armed like light infantry, and wearing gold crowns. Next to them came three thousand Thracians and five thousand Gauls. They were followed by twenty-thousand Macedonians, and five thousand armed with brass shields, and others with silver shields, who were followed by two hundred and forty pairs of gladiators. Behind these were a thousand Nisaean cavalry and three thousand native horsemen, most of whom had gold plumes and gold crowns, the rest having them of silver. Next to them came what are called "companion cavalry," to the number of a thousand, closely followed by the corps of king's "friends" of about the same number, who were again followed by a thousand picked men; next to whom came the Agema or guard, which was considered the flower of the cavalry, and numbered about a thousand. Next came the "cataphract" cavalry, both men and horses acquiring that name from the nature of their panoply; they numbered fifteen hundred. All the above men had purple surcoats, in many cases embroidered with gold and heraldic designs. And behind them came a hundred six-horsed, and forty four-horsed chariots; a chariot drawn by four elephants and another by two; and then thirty-six elephants in single file with all their furniture on.
The rest of the procession was almost beyond description, but I must give a summary account of it. It consisted of eight hundred young men wearing gold crowns, about a thousand fine oxen, foreign delegates to the number of nearly three hundred, and eight hundred ivory tusks. The number of images of the gods it is impossible to tell completely: for representations of every god or demigod or hero accepted by mankind were carried there, some gilded and others adorned with gold-embroidered robes; and the myths, belonging to each, according to accepted tradition, were represented by the most costly symbols. Behind them were carried representations of Night and Day, Earth, Heaven, Morning and Noon. The best idea that I can give of the amount of gold and silver plate is this: One of the king's friends, Dionysius his secretary, had a thousand [p. 427] boys in the procession carrying silver vessels, none of which weighed less than a thousand drachmae;1 and by their side walked six hundred young slaves of the king holding gold vessels. There were also two hundred women sprinkling unguents from gold boxes; and after them came eighty women sitting in litters with gold feet, and five hundred in litters with silver feet, all adorned with great costliness. These were the most remarkable features of the procession.
The only mention of gold I see anywhere near the shield comment is here
[6] toutôn katopin êsan hippeis Nisaioi men chilioi politikoi de trischilioi, hôn hoi men pleious êsan chrusophalaroi kai chrusostephanoi, hoi d' alloi argurophalaroi. but that is referring to the trapping of calavary, some of whom have gold plums others who have silver. The other mention is the Cilician light infantry with their golden
crowns [4] sunecheis d' êsan Kilikes eis ton tôn euzônôn tropon kathôplismenoi trischilioi, chrusous echontes stephanous. In short though I have to say the translation I posted first is at best 'creative' and certinly not something to base a hierarchy of the seleukid army on.
Imperator
07-04-2007, 17:45
That's a strong case for EB's unit choice, but what sources do that internet site use? My French is rather poor, so it would take me forever to slog through all that.
Geoffrey S
07-04-2007, 18:40
The only part where he refers to these 'gold-shields' is in a brief section on the Daphne parade, and he refers to Polybius. QwertyMIDX has posted the relevant passages, which does indeed show that there is very little basis for some kind of distinct unit named Chrysaspides.
keravnos
07-04-2007, 21:14
Pah! That's RTR :thumbsdown:
RTR is a FINE mod. People over there don't tolerate EB bashing on their threads, and we don't tolerate RTR bashing either. People should play both and then decide which they prefer. Most like to play both. I have nothing but respect for people modding RTW, because I can see it from the inside. There are many differences between RTR and EB but there is No need to fight over anything. To each his own!
PenguinLobster
07-04-2007, 21:15
a chariot drawn by four elephants and another by two;
I dont care how unrealistic it is I wanna see one of these.
Argyraspides and Chalkaspides (at least in the case of Pontus) are mentioned elsewhere,
I haven't read primary sources, but in "In the Name of Rome" Adrian Goldsworthy mentions that the Macedonian phalanx at the battle of Pydna was divided in the agema, chalkaspides and leukaspides. He does not elaborate on the difference between the latter two. However, I imagine at least one of the two must be represented by the Hysteroi Pezhetairoi. This battle was the last gasp of Macedon, so the reforms must have taken place by then.
The Celt
07-04-2007, 22:06
RTR is a FINE mod. People over there don't tolerate EB bashing on their threads, and we don't tolerate RTR bashing either. People should play both and then decide which they prefer. Most like to play both. I have nothing but respect for people modding RTW, because I can see it from the inside. There are many differences between RTR and EB but there is No need to fight over anything. To each his own!
Here here!:2thumbsup: I play EB now but before this mod came out RTR was there, and without RTR, we'd be stuck playing with mostly Vanilla units for the past few years.(I don't think anyone wants to go back in that direction. Not even CA.)
So no mod-bashing please. The last time that was tolerated two years ago(three maybe?) it caused a big stink at TWC, and when the hackers attacked every mod team was almost at each others throats.:no:(I was there, don't assume I'm making this up!) Lets not repeat that gruesome history. Please?
Anyway, as to the gold shields judging by the quotes from Polybius seem to suggest that the "Chrysaspides" were probably decorated heroes from the ranks of the royal guard.(Like the Marines at a ceremony.)Just because they "might" have had gold shields during a parade doesn't mean they're gonna go running around looking all fancy on the battlefield. You have to take it with the context that it's being presented in. And even then, Polybius might be exaggerating again.
QwertyMIDX
07-04-2007, 22:35
Anyway, as to the gold shields judging by the quotes from Polybius seem to suggest that the "Chrysaspides" were probably decorated heroes from the ranks of the royal guard.(Like the Marines at a ceremony.)Just because they "might" have had gold shields during a parade doesn't mean they're gonna go running around looking all fancy on the battlefield. You have to take it with the context that it's being presented in. And even then, Polybius might be exaggerating again.
Polybius himself actually doesn't say anything about people with gold shields, that just appeared in one particular translation. There's nothing about it in the original greek.
As to the Macedonian chalkaspides, I don't have Livy around (and you can't get the later books online as far as I know) so I can't check what the primary source says. If someone can post the passage from Livy (there's a description in Plutarch too I think, but the Livy one is probably more useful here) we can take a look.
Hi.
I've been making some research about the Seleucid armies and came to this French site: http://www.stratisc.org/partenaires/cfhm/rihm/82/RIHM_82_BARRAL.html. In there, and noticed that the Seleucids used 3 levels of phalangites:
1. Chalkaspides (Bronze Shields)
2. Argyraspides (Silver Shields)
3. Chrysaspides (Golden Shields)
In EB, the first 2 levels are represented (although the Chalkaspides are only used by Pontus and in the Successor States and Makedonia they are replaced by the Pezhetairoi). However, the Chrysaspides are not represented at all. Also, it seems that the Seleucids adopted the name Chalkaspides instead of Pezhetairoi.
Was this an intentional choice of the EB designers or their sources did not give enough importance to these phalangites? According to the French site above, the Chrysaspides were very numerous.
Thanks for your comments.
well
the site's content is in French
if you guys want it, I can translate it
it's going to take quite some time though, and I'm already faced with deadlines IRL
Geoffrey S
07-05-2007, 08:12
Chrysaspides are only mentioned once, so the search function and a little bit of French should get most people through it.
QwertyMIDX
07-05-2007, 16:10
I also think that that particular element of his position has already been fairly well disproved, despite the language barrier.
RTR is a FINE mod. People over there don't tolerate EB bashing on their threads, and we don't tolerate RTR bashing either. People should play both and then decide which they prefer. Most like to play both. I have nothing but respect for people modding RTW, because I can see it from the inside. There are many differences between RTR and EB but there is No need to fight over anything. To each his own!
Calm, calm. It was a sarcastic remark. ;)
Quovadis
07-07-2007, 17:11
Original french version:
Antiochos IV combla les pertes de la Phalange si bien qu’à Daphnè, lors d’une revue militaire en 166 av. J.C. 20 000 Macédoniens défilèrent devant le souverain. Parmi eux, il y avait 10 000 Chrysaspides (i.e. portant un bouclier doré) et 5 000 Chalkaspides (i.e. portant un bouclier de bronze) en plus des Argyraspides. La difficulté du texte de Polybe réside dans le fait qu’il existait sans doute un écart important entre l’armée qui combattait sur le champ de bataille et celle qui défilait.
He says that during a military parade, 20 thousands soldiers where present, 10 000 of them where Chrysapides, 5 000 where Chalkapides and the rest where Argyraspides. He then state that the difficultie of Polybius' text is the fact that there was surely a big difference between the feild army and the parade army, wich lead me to believe that Chrysaspides where soldiers in "parade uniforms".
His sources for that part is : Polybe, XXX.25.5.
QwertyMIDX
07-07-2007, 17:41
If you look at the original greek for Polybius though, there is no mention of any phalangites with gold shields, much less the word Chrysapides. It's posted in this thread above.
keravnos
07-07-2007, 18:44
I will take Polybius ancient text over ANY translation any time.
Let me give you just an example...Hoplon means weapon.
In many descriptions I found that it is considered a shield, the round shield of a hoplite.
This shield is called an "Aspis". Yet someone wrongly assumed that "hoplon" must mean shield so it stuck. Chrysaspides is another example. Born out of either an honest mistake or a "different" translation, it stuck untill now, however ERRONEOUS it may be.
Pharnakes
07-07-2007, 19:02
So what does hoplite mean then? Just soldier basicaly?
keravnos
07-07-2007, 19:15
Loose translation is "the one who carries weapons"
Well a Hoplogist is someone that studies arms and military equipment
An hoplofile is someone who has a deep aversion of weapons. Yeah that hoplon translation was something that stuck tough Erroniously but it stuck.
Cheers...
keravnos
07-07-2007, 22:55
Well, changing the erroneous notions about history is the n.3 reason why EB is here, (according to my own "raisons d' etre avec EB"
1. Make a great mod
2. Learn History
3. Correct errors that have "stuck" as time passes by.
4. check the last line of my sig... we know more about bigfoot than we know about IndoGreeks. :furious3: then again, more people care about Bigfoot than they do about IndoGreeks.
Centurio Nixalsverdrus
07-08-2007, 00:41
An hoplofile is someone who has a deep aversion of weapons. Yeah that hoplon translation was something that stuck tough Erroniously but it stuck.
I never heard the word "hoplofile" or "hoplophil", but it would surely mean "friend of weapons" then and not the opposite.:stupido2:
I think he meant to say a hoplophobe.
Yeah Ravenic thanks for the correction.
Cheers...
Musopticon?
07-08-2007, 16:04
This is nigh-englightening.
So, can I call my sister hoplophone? It sure does sting when she sings.
As to the Macedonian chalkaspides, I don't have Livy around (and you can't get the later books online as far as I know) so I can't check what the primary source says. If someone can post the passage from Livy (there's a description in Plutarch too I think, but the Livy one is probably more useful here) we can take a look.
I just received a link for the appropriate tekst (Livy, book 44 (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.44.shtml)). A translation can be found here (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/From_the_Founding_of_the_City/Book_44). Unfortunatly, it doesn't say anything about either chalcaspides or leucaspides beyond mentioning their existence.
Out of curiosity: if the histories did not mention them, how did you reconstruct the reformed pezhetairoi?
Krusader
07-15-2007, 17:29
I just received a link for the appropriate tekst (Livy, book 44 (http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.44.shtml)). A translation can be found here (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/From_the_Founding_of_the_City/Book_44). Unfortunatly, it doesn't say anything about either chalcaspides or leucaspides beyond mentioning their existence.
Out of curiosity: if the histories did not mention them, how did you reconstruct the reformed pezhetairoi?
Absinth & Polybios :grin:
helenos aiakides
07-16-2007, 08:58
If in doubt, use Polybius
Musopticon?
07-16-2007, 13:55
And absinth...
Musopticon?
07-17-2007, 15:21
Turun?
I think this thread exhausted it's purpose... Admins should clean or close it...
I wanted to practice some necromancy on this thread because I have found the solution to our problem with the Chrysaspides and the Daphne Procession. Essentially, it arises from a translation of Polybios by a Classicist named Kaibel. The extant description of the procession has been considered by historians to be fairly corrupt and so there have been attempts to restore it. Kaibel, in his attempt to fix it, added in the Chrysaspides regiment; others such as Walbank have dismissed that addition. Hence the confusion. Bar-Kochva accepted Kaibel's version, which is why Chrysaspides are mentioned in his seminal work The Seleucid Army.
There are also two different interpretations of the size of the phalanx - the inclusive and exclusive. The former of which includes the named regiments of Chalkaspides and Argyraspides in the 20,000 Makedonians. The latter counts them outside of it. I prefer the exclusive version, but I am personally not sure whether I agree with the idea that the 5,000 "Romanized" infantry should be included with the Argyraspides or not. As it stands, I see it as this:
- 20,000 men in the phalanx (some of these may be regionals or military settlers temporarily drafted into the phalanx to swell their number for the parade)
- 5,000 Chalkaspides (possibly at least partially Antigonid refugees fleeing the Roman conquest of Makedonia after Pydna)
- 10,000 Argyraspides (8,000 phalangites and 2,000 Hypaspistai)
- 5,000 Thorakitai (just as we currently have in EB, but using Roman drill)
Sekunda does a lot of combing through the extant corpus of Greek and Latin work and "Golden-shield" only appears in reference to deities such as Athena or heroes. There has never been a Makedonian regiment known as Chrysaspides. Although it is possible that a unit did exist, any reference was in a now lost work.
chairman
06-23-2008, 20:04
I read on the forums here a while back that the chrysaspides were the invention of a classicist who was working for one of the Roman emperors (the one who recreated the phalanx [?]) while compiling a list of Greek terms for military units. Using the leukaspides, chalkaspides and agyraspides, he extrapolated a unit with golden shields to "fill the gap" and included it in his lexicon of high-brow Greek words and technical terms for use at dinner parties. The emperor liked it and named a unit of his phalanx after it. Or something like that. Don't blame me if I'm wrong, since I have also heard Abou's explanation before.
Just giving what I have read.
Chairman
MeinPanzer
06-23-2008, 23:21
I read on the forums here a while back that the chrysaspides were the invention of a classicist who was working for one of the Roman emperors (the one who recreated the phalanx [?]) while compiling a list of Greek terms for military units. Using the leukaspides, chalkaspides and agyraspides, he extrapolated a unit with golden shields to "fill the gap" and included it in his lexicon of high-brow Greek words and technical terms for use at dinner parties. The emperor liked it and named a unit of his phalanx after it. Or something like that. Don't blame me if I'm wrong, since I have also heard Abou's explanation before.
The actual reason is given by Bar-Kochva in his excellent book "Judas Maccabaeus." In an extensive footnote relating to this passage in Polybius (417 n. 21), he writes that "[based on evidence of corruption of the text]there must have been another unit characterized by a shield (or colour) different from the bronze and silver shields of the other two units mentioned. The only other type of shield in Antiochus Epiphanes' time reported in the sources and not mentioned in the procession is the shield of gold (I Macc. 6.39)." This passage from 1 Maccabees, however, has been shown to have links to earlier Biblical passages which rhetorically describe the arms and armour of warriors as shining like gold, and so the description is almost certainly not literal.
pezhetairoi
06-24-2008, 01:29
It might be that they are just argyraspidai anyway, just that for the purposes of the procession and to 'fill the gap', Antiochos had some of the shield plated with gold. It was, after all, a parade. They're out to impress and dazzle.
Who and what are the leukaspides, though? What metal ranks lower than bronze?
Leukaspides = White-shields
I believe O'Etairos can tell you more, but in the Antigonid army they seem to have been what the Phalangitai Deuteroi are in EB1. There was also a unit of Leukaspides in the army of Taras when they were allied to Pyrrhos in his campaign against Rome, but these do not seem to have been levies.
Decimus Attius Arbiter
06-24-2008, 02:18
This sounds like the beginning of handing out chevrons and medals of valor. Maybe they handed ceremonial shields to a guy who pulled a buddy to safety.
pezhetairoi
06-24-2008, 06:59
I would have thought it was more about levels of personal fitness and combat proficiency. Hence the white shields are the lowest percentile, then bronze, silver and gold, or something, while usually in combat the gold and silver shields were actually the Silver Shields (with the capital S), a corps d'elite, or at least some sort of youth cadre.
This is just speculation, but hey, it's entirely possible the silver shields they were wearing weren't the silver shields the Argyraspidai wore, if you get what I mean. Like, the Daphne silver and gold shields (no capital S) were just ordinary shields plated for the occasion, carried by ordinary soldier, while the Raphia Silver Shields were the real deal maybe carrying the real silver shield that was a mark of their corps, who knows, maybe with the Seleukid anchor on it or something.
It's like, in the Singapore army half a year back, we were in the process of updating our webbing models, so at that time only the commandos and Guards units, the elite, had the latest-model webbing. But for the purposes of parades, even those of us in the service and support echelons selected to take part (I was a signaller) were also given the latest-model webbing for the duration of the parade as well as the locally made SAR 21 rifle usually reserved for combat vocations, instead of the M16 that the support units used. Parades are not for accurate reflection, it's to put up a damned good show to make the army look good (even if it isn't).
Indeed, isn't it suspicious that if the 10000 argyraspidai present at Daphne were divided into the chrysaspidai and argyraspidai, it would make neatly 5000 of each metallic shield? It's a bit too neat, for me, especially when, if the metals represented proficiency and 'eliteness', you would see a smaller number of each subsequently higher level of metal/rank.
Just my thoughts about this whole chrysaspidai thing.
Personally, I don't think the Chrysaspides ever existed. Although that doesn't mean it isn't possible, I don't agree with Kaibel's emendation to the text.
PS. Pez, you're declining the name wrong. The plural nominative ends with epsilon-sigma.:beam:
Centurio Nixalsverdrus
06-24-2008, 18:55
PS. Pez, you're declining the name wrong. The plural nominative ends with epsilon-sigma.:beam:
That's just natural, given that most of us have their ridiculously little knowledge of the Greek language from EB. And at least till 0.81, it was all Argyraspidai, Chalkaspidai, etc. :grin:
Yeah... that was a collective moment of "Dammit!" when we realized the error. I think Tellos pointed it out.
Tellos Athenaios
06-24-2008, 19:22
Oh yes, I remember. There's been a couple of them moments, since I joined. ~;)
Heir_of_Alexander
10-21-2010, 15:01
I might be wrong and I do not have any sources but i have read somewhere that the Chalkaspidai were some type of elite Hypaspistai.
Sorry about the English :)
Hello Heir of Alexander, welcome to the .Org and to EB.
~:wave:
If I recall correctly, Alexander created the first Argyraspides unit from the Hypaspists after the battle of the Hydaspes. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyraspids) back me up on this. As a general rule, though: if you want to discuss history you should bring a better source than Wikipedia. The latter is fine as a starting point, but especially on less well-known topics the articles sometimes represent the bias of one researcher.
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