Ethanol is driving up the cost of beer

[Xiahou]

As if there weren't already enough reasons to hate ethanol- there's this (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6300143):
The cost of beer has climbed 3 percent over the last year, slightly outpacing the rate of inflation, according to data from the Department of Labor.

And the cost of downing a brew at a restaurant or bar jumped 3.8 percent.

But the price of beer could see an even larger jump next year.

The price of barley, a key ingredient of most beers, has shot up 48 percent over the last 11 months. Since some breweries buy contracts for a year in advance, the increase in barley cost has not affected most beer prices.

"We're definitely concerned. We don't want to be in a position where to remain profitable we price our beer out of some consumers. We want to be able to keep our beer affordable," said Doug Odell, founder and brewmaster of Fort Collins-based Odell Brewing Co.

Odell said his company's production costs have gone up 10 percent to 15 percent over the last year. Since Odell buys its barley in October for the following year, the jump in its production costs is mostly from increases in the prices of energy and glass, Odell said.

The price of barley has escalated drastically, breweries and industry analysts said, in part because of a tighter supply caused by more farmers growing corn.

[Strike For The South]

Ha. Alternetve? Mores liek I liek beere so Imm not using things that mske beer go up. Go beer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1234567890:smash: :smash: :smash: :clown: :smash:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Accursed ethanol! Why do we abandon our friendly big oil companies? The fuel isn't much cleaner and tortillas and beer cost more!

Another case of liberalism destroying society!*:furious3:

Crazed Rabbit
*For the humor impaired: I'm joking.

[Tribesman]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
don't ya just love it when Connies get their knickers in a twist against the free market which they so adore .

[Crazed Rabbit]

Subsidies != Free market. :logic:

CR

[naut]

If it's American beer who gives a rats the stuffs absolutely vile anyway.

[BigTex]

Ethanol has little to do with the rise in price. The idiotic illaimed subsidies created by congress for corn growers is what is killing the price of alot of things. Instead of sensibly going after and making meaningful legislation and subsidies for sugar cane and beats they bring back the bacon for corn growers that is 10 times less efficient at creating ethanol then beats and cane.

No it isnt ethanol driving up the cost of beer, its congress gotta love em.

[Tribesman]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Don't ya just love it when people who know bugger all about farming try and go on about it .

So Rabbit


Subsidies != Free market.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: logic:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: its supply and demand not subsidies Rabbit . Its a global market and the market has taken a big hit for many reasons .
Which leads to.....
If it's American beer who gives a rats the stuffs absolutely vile anyway.
While you might have a point about most American beer you are going to get screwed too Rythmic , Australias yield has fallen by over 66% due to the drought , not only has the yield dropped but the quality too , most of whats left is only good for fodder .
Europes Barley crop on the other hand has got screwed by the opposite , too much rain .

Now then, for an interesting aside about barley market supply and demand ,subsidies ,fodder and yield
A relativey new practice over here that uses barley but gives no grain yield provides fodder but gets no subsidies yet effects the market because it demands grain . Good old silage with a twist .
Sowing barley with the grass but cutting it before its ripe , an interesting practice , but it can produce nasty results if you get it wrong .
However if you get it right it will crop again in the second year (not that you will get any grain from it of course), but it does mean that you don't have to buy seed grain that year .

[Proletariat]

Edit: Too soon, I think I've spoken

[Xiahou]

My dear Tribesy, it is supply and demand, but demand for corn is being stupidly stimulated via government intervention. Government intervention is decidedly not free-market.

It's too much to ask people to read links, I know- so I'll post a bit more:
The price of barley has escalated drastically, breweries and industry analysts said, in part because of a tighter supply caused by more farmers growing corn.

The advent of biofuels - such as E85, which is made of 85 percent corn ethanol - has helped push the price of corn futures up 49 percent since December 2005.

"More corn acres were planted this year than at any other time since 1944. Those acres had to come from somewhere," said Nancy Krull, director of marketing for the Minneapolis Grain Exchange, a commodity exchange.

Five of the country's largest barley-producing states - Idaho, Minnesota, Montana, North Dakota and Washington - have planted 22 percent less barley this year than in 2006, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Soybean growth also has taken a large hit, dropping to its lowest acreage since 1995. Now, are the other factors that might affect production costs? Almost certainly. But, just as certainly, less barley is being planted due to artificially inflated corn prices- and that is certainly having an effect on costs.

[Tribesman]

It's too much to ask people to read links, I know
Is that one of those silly assumtions?


But, just as certainly, less barley is being planted due to artificially inflated corn prices- and that is certainly having an effect on costs
The price of corn is not artificialy inflated , it is down to demand , while the price of barley is down to lack of supply .
It is not as you seem to think about government intervention , it is more about lack of government intervention .:yes:
What is really funny Xiahou , when it comes to corn based ethanol you sound like Chavez , Castro and Ortega all rolled into one :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[naut]

Australias yield has fallen by over 66% due to the drought
Wow, that's huge. Then again most of our beer is shocking too.

[KukriKhan]

Ten years ago, I paid (on average) 50 cents a 12oz can for domestic beer, retail, when bought in cases of 30 cans.

Yesterday's 30-case cost me 64 cents per can. I figure I 'can' absorb a price increase to about 70 cents per can.

Above that, I'll have to switch to some other grain/fruit to get my buzz on. Or start making the swill myself.

Just trying to cover the beer-consumer angle, here.

p.s. There's little comparison to tavern prices, where a draught beer here runs about $2.50 per 11oz serving, and bottled domestic (12oz) about $3.25.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I must admit, it makes me giggle when Americans complain about price rises. I pay four dollars a pint on average.

You've got it quite good, really. :beam:

[KukriKhan]

I must admit, it makes me giggle when Americans complain about price rises. I pay four dollars a pint on average.

You've got it quite good, really. :beam:

4$ per. Pub price?

[Hosakawa Tito]

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/moonshinestill.jpg

Our fore-fathers had a strategy for combating high prices; eliminate the middle man. Time to set up 'Old Thumper'.

[Gregoshi]

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v517/hoppy84/moonshinestill.jpg



"Still, you turn me on." - Emerson, Lake & Palmer

One should not be drinking while driving up the price of beer.

[Whacker]

I was JUST going to suggest moonshine, beaten! Gotta love it, cleans out the ol' inards, and you can just dump the excess in the gas tank! Hell some of that stuff is so strong you could probably just pee in the gas tank and it'd work just as good.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

4$ per. Pub price?

Yes, pub price.

[InsaneApache]

£2 a pint in London? :inquisitive: Now that is cheap, must be the NUS bar! :idea2:

Having said that, if from 'darn sarf', it's prolly shandy. :laugh4:

Can you drink ethanol? Or will you go blind? :inquisitive:

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Hah, that's what I pay in Cardiff. It's more like £2.50 in London.

[Caius]

Open the eyes! This is your opportunity to stop drinking!
(both things are destructive)
No ethanol + No beer = Better World.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

You can take my Spitfire from my cold, dead hands. ~;)

[Banquo's Ghost]

Open the eyes! This is your opportunity to stop drinking!
(both things are destructive)
No ethanol + No beer = Better World.

That there's fightin' talk round these 'ere parts. :boxing:

[Hosakawa Tito]

Open the eyes! This is your opportunity to stop drinking!
(both things are destructive)
No ethanol + No beer = Better World.

What??? My best friend happens to float at the bottom of my glass. Goodbye cruel *hic* world.:toilet:

[Xiahou]

The price of corn is not artificialy inflated , it is down to demand , while the price of barley is down to lack of supply .
It is not as you seem to think about government intervention , it is more about lack of government intervention .:yes:
What is really funny Xiahou , when it comes to corn based ethanol you sound like Chavez , Castro and Ortega all rolled into one :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Well, you can lead a Tribesman to truth, but you can't make him admit it. Oh well. :shrug:


Ten years ago, I paid (on average) 50 cents a 12oz can for domestic beer, retail, when bought in cases of 30 cans.

Yesterday's 30-case cost me 64 cents per can. I figure I 'can' absorb a price increase to about 70 cents per can.

Above that, I'll have to switch to some other grain/fruit to get my buzz on. Or start making the swill myself.

Just trying to cover the beer-consumer angle, here.

p.s. There's little comparison to tavern prices, where a draught beer here runs about $2.50 per 11oz serving, and bottled domestic (12oz) about $3.25.Yeah, I'm sure most people will still be able to get their beer. Believe it or not, this was started as a more light-hearted topic. But, it does show how far-reaching the effects of our government mandating that we put the country's main staple into our gas tanks are. :yes:

[Crazed Rabbit]

logic its supply and demand not subsidies Rabbit . Its a global market and the market has taken a big hit for many reasons .

You're hilarious tribesy. Were it not for Iowa Congresspeoples, we'd importing sugar based biofuels from Brazil. :logic:
Or maybe you just think that gov't regulations and subsidies really are the free market.

CR

[Tribesman]

Rabbit you really shouldn't use that logic smilie , you have no logic in your arguement .
More people are growing corn because of the market , not because of subsidies . Most farmers don't even get the crop subsidy .
The advantage of growing corn for industrial use is that crop quality is not a major factor , its easy money
You and Xiahou are going on as if its all about your government and its policies , its worldwide in case you didn't know .
Now as the price of barley goes up more farmers will sow barley , not because of subsidies or anything like that , but because there is money in it .
That dear boy is logic and markets:idea2:


BTW....

Were it not for Iowa Congresspeoples, we'd importing sugar based biofuels from Brazil. ....yeah , if the Brazilian sugar industry was a hell of a lot bigger:dizzy2:

[Hosakawa Tito]

Hoo boy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM9QBP7SfxA)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Rabbit you really shouldn't use that logic smilie , you have no logic in your arguement .
More people are growing corn because of the market , not because of subsidies . Most farmers don't even get the crop subsidy .
The advantage of growing corn for industrial use is that crop quality is not a major factor , its easy money
You and Xiahou are going on as if its all about your government and its policies , its worldwide in case you didn't know .
Now as the price of barley goes up more farmers will sow barley , not because of subsidies or anything like that , but because there is money in it .
That dear boy is logic and markets

Let me try explaining this real slow:
It'd be cheaper for us to import Brazilian biofuels than make our own from corn. But legislators want to be nice to midwest farmers, so they hike up tariffs on imported ethanol. To repeat, because it seems to be lost on you: they increased tariffs on ethanol imports.
That is not the free market.
:logic:
They also subsidize domestic ethanol production.
That is not the free market.
:logic:
These actions by the government are helping to drive up demand - that means it is not a free market. A free market is free of government interference.
:logic:

Regardless of the world market, less farmers in the US would be growing corn, and more would be growing barley, and beer would be cheaper, were it not for these actions by the gov't.
:logic:

CR

[Tribesman]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Rabbit don't be so silly . What you mean by free market is no taxes and no governments :dizzy2:


It'd be cheaper for us to import Brazilian biofuels than make our own from corn.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
No it wouldn't because Brazil has a very limited capacity , your demands would push their prices through the roof ....supply and demand old boy .

[Crazed Rabbit]

Rabbit don't be so silly . What you mean by free market is no taxes and no governments

So...you can't read, can you? :oops:


No it wouldn't because Brazil has a very limited capacity , your demands would push their prices through the roof ....supply and demand old boy .

It seems you've admitted that this case is not a free market one, and that I was correct in my initial post.

By the way, you're wrong about Brazil's capacity. We import 10% of what they export, and they are our biggest importer of ethanol. Considering also how their production is able to switch between sugar and ethanol refinement, and how ethanol exports from them are expected to double in less than a decade, I doubt getting rid of US government subsidies and the like would push prices through the roof.

Astonishingly, you correctly pointed out that this would be supply and demand - but admitted in the same stroke that the regulations and tariffs in place now are not free market.
:logic:

CR

[Tribesman]

It seems you've admitted that this case is not a free market one, and that I was correct in my initial post.


Your initial post ???????????

Subsidies != Free market.
This case is as free market as you are going to get , what you think of as a free market is an impossible pipe dream of the incredibly naive.
Which explains why you write something like this......
Astonishingly, you correctly pointed out that this would be supply and demand - but admitted in the same stroke that the regulations and tariffs in place now are not free market.

There is not and will never be a free market as you see it .


By the way, you're wrong about Brazil's capacity. We import 10% of what they export, and they are our biggest importer of ethanol. Considering also how their production is able to switch between sugar and ethanol refinement, and how ethanol exports from them are expected to double in less than a decade, I doubt getting rid of US government subsidies and the like would push prices through the roof.

Hold on there rabbit read what you wrote:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

This case is as free market as you are going to get , what you think of as a free market is an impossible pipe dream of the incredibly naive.
Which explains why you write something like this......

You...just...don't...get...it, do you?


There is not and will never be a free market as you see it .

There has been, presently is in some areas, and there could easily be one here.

Regardless of ignorance of economic history, your incorrect belief that a real free market can never be achieved does not make this a free market.

Crazed Rabbit

[Whacker]

Open the eyes! This is your opportunity to stop drinking!
(both things are destructive)
No ethanol + No beer = Better World.

Alright boys, time of an official beatdown here! So far I count Big King Sankthefranks and Banker's Ghost in, who else is up for our Argentinian reeducation program?! :grin:

[discovery1]

Alright boys, time of an official beatdown here! So far I count Big King Sankthefranks and Banker's Ghost in, who else is up for our Argentinian reeducation program?! :grin:

ME!


So what will this do to vodka prices?

[KafirChobee]

So, we can expect a severe rise in the cost of whiskey. Why use hopps for ethanol? When there are so many other products that must perform better - or are hopps less caustic than corn? I mean, as I understand it corn produced ethonal can't be pipelined because it eats through metal better than most acids. So, it must be shipped by trucks with special containers, etc - which detracts from its profitability and makes it less viable as a reliable source of energy. Still, it might work for an industriest farm oriented corporation - though, personally, I doubt there exists but a few of their corporate heads that can see the forest for the trees.

Must be some kind of conspiracy there - like ignorance of growth beyond profits or changing attitudes that could include the idea that by altering old paths it might (would) create additional profits. It is a matter of this was the way we done did it in 1950 and it was good enough then, so it's good enoughs now.

Further, last I heard we have had such a surplus in corn that the government has periodically destroyed it or given it away to ranchers (or seed companys) - to stabilize the price for "farmers".

I know of farmers being paid not to grow corn (or anything - fallow fields) in Illinois (and making as much as if they had - at absolutely no risk of what the weather might bear), which means it is being done elsewhere. Of corporations being subsidized under rules originally created for family farms (but, since coporations are individuals they slip in under the net - they are recognized as "family farms"). So, what we have is more a matter of finding ways to support corporate intrusion into laws purported for families, but in the end actually meant for corporations. It was one of those feel good laws for public consumption. It was a lie - as Reagan proved when he withdrew support for private farming in 1982. Gah!

The arguement of "free market" is mute, since it hasn't existed in any first world nation in the last 50 years (1,000). All protect their farmers in one way or another, all have tariffs. For example, Japan all but bans the import of rice to protect the few farmers remaining there - and the price for it there is something that Americans would start a revolution over (especially since all their meals have rice - much as the Southern US does - the real south use to that is).
____
Sugar? Possibly the most protected product in America. Big Sugar has been allowed to pretty much do as they will here in south Florida for over 50 years - or since that bout with Cuba in 1956 (where as , Ike got embarrassed in '57 'cause he supported Castro and Fidel turns around & pisses on Ike's boot by proclaiming Cuba a commie country - oh the humiliation, I mean we were selling hats with beards to our kids. Ike had proclaimed him the George Washington of Cuba ... oops). Big sugar has reigned supreme and protected ever since. Do we have a surplus? Possibly - probably today (I recall as a boy the price going up because of Castro - must always be a cause for prices rising even if one truely doesnot exist).

Bottom line to this meandering is that there is no pure free market as some would propose. There is a tendency for any nation to be protective of their farmers, after all one can survive being cut off from petrol - food is something all together different.

Can ethanol make a difference? Certainly. Does it matter whether it is from sweet grass (Bushy ... not me), corn, sugar, hopps, or potatoes? Well, maybe - to those of us that drink booze, but not much. After all as already pointed out - that's what stills and bathtubs are for ... to compensate for the stupidity of one's government. Beside, it's legal if it is for personal consumption - make them prove that 5,000 gallons on booze isn't for your use only (remember we have jury trials). :2thumbsup:

BTW, as far as beers being equal - no. But, it is an acquired taste to begin with (as in most things) and as in all things what one grows up with is always preferrable to something that is not ... or is weaker, and american beer is weak compared to European - it's a matter of our stupid laws.
____
It was once said that America could feed the world. There was a time. Wonder if we again become the nation that can not only feed it, but become a primary supplier of energy .... ethanol.

Nah. :beam:

[Tribesman]

There has been, presently is in some areas, and there could easily be one here.

Regardless of ignorance of economic history, your incorrect belief that a real free market can never be achieved does not make this a free market.


Go on then Rabbit help me out of my ignorance , give some examples from biblical times to the present when their hasn't been taxes/tax relief or government/industry trade policies .

[Redleg]

The American argiculture industry - especially the market around grain crops is not exactly an examble of the free market.

The government provides relief when mother nature plays havoc with the crops.
The government happens to provide money for farmers not to grow crops.

And there is a whole list of other things involved with the government influencing the American argiculture market. Now most of these things actually benefit not only the farmer but the American People also.

However some of what Tribesman is attempting to state is misleading.


don't ya just love it when Connies get their knickers in a twist against the free market which they so adore .

Ah however care to explain how this relates to the subject. I noticed that prior to your statement no connie was getting their knickers in a twist over the subject. Some were concerned about the supply/demand equation of barley and its effect on beer prices. Now if I was a beer brewer I might want to insure that I had a resonsible supply of barley in which to make my product. That would not equate to getting my knickers in a twist however would it?


Don't ya just love it when people who know bugger all about farming try and go on about it .
So Rabbit



Subsidies != Free market.

logic its supply and demand not subsidies Rabbit . Its a global market and the market has taken a big hit for many reasons .

Now while I am not expert on the matter - I have farmed and I know some about how the system works in the United States. Its not exactly a free market system, but it does allow farmers to survive a bad harvest or two. However to call what the United States does for grain a free market is not exactly true, given the amount of price establishment and subsidicies that the United States government does do in relation to certain grain crops. To include paying farmers not to grow crops. Certain crops do not require protection and others do - a big fight in congress is brewing just over this issue - just look into what the growers of speciality crops are attempting.



The price of corn is not artificialy inflated , it is down to demand , while the price of barley is down to lack of supply .
It is not as you seem to think about government intervention , it is more about lack of government intervention .
What is really funny Xiahou , when it comes to corn based ethanol you sound like Chavez , Castro and Ortega all rolled into one


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/opinion/06tue4.html?ex=1328418000&en=632c8304bfeca7d9&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Not exactly correct about corn but close on the subject of intervention, for examble this article from the February Times states.


There are many reasons for this price spurt. The ethanol boom has created a sharp new demand for corn. The Department of Agriculture revised its estimate of the 2006 corn harvest downward by some 200 million bushels because of weather and other factors. There is also a smaller corn reserve on hand than usual — the smallest in a decade — which parallels shortages around the world.

Then here is the corn growers report.

http://ncga.ncgapremium.com/index.aspx?mid=28550&mtype=21&qfguid=d8332453-cd95-40b6-a01a-c97f26eb646a


CORN -- Closing Comment -- 2007/07/06
Corn futures closed higher on the day. The market moved higher as weather forecasts call for hot, dry weather throughout the Corn Belt. Informa penciled a 13.375 billion bushel 2007 corn production number this morning, with a yield of 156.6 bushels per acre. USDA was at 12.46 billion bushels in June. Export sales this morning of 1.953 MMT was nearly double than trade estimates of 0.7 to 1.05 MMT. USDA reported private export sale of 116,000 tonnes to unknown destination this morning, as well. July +10 ½ at 3.34 ½. Dec +9 ½ at 3.52.


So it seems either your sentence is written in a confusing way - or that you are attempting to argue about intervention and the corn markert using false data.


Rabbit you really shouldn't use that logic smilie , you have no logic in your arguement .
More people are growing corn because of the market , not because of subsidies . Most farmers don't even get the crop subsidy .
The advantage of growing corn for industrial use is that crop quality is not a major factor , its easy money
You and Xiahou are going on as if its all about your government and its policies , its worldwide in case you didn't know .
Now as the price of barley goes up more farmers will sow barley , not because of subsidies or anything like that , but because there is money in it .
That dear boy is logic and markets


Ah very good - minus the attempts at being cycnical and arguementive your almost on track to what is going on in the corn market of today in the United States.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/April06/Features/Ethanol.htm

An interesting article about corn and ethonal and the market,

In short the American Argiculture Industry is a mixed market - it has aspects of both government intervention and the free market. Corn is primarily being driven by demand and supply - a poor harvest is expected this year, the stockpiles held by the government are down, and heavy speculation in the commondities market is driving up the price for corn.

Now Tribesman pointed out that barley is a tougher crop to grow - while corn is fairily simple as long as the weather doesn't do anything drastic to you. In this I would have to agree - corn is much easier to grow then many other crops.

Edit: Now the question I would of asked - and I don't know the answer to - is the market for ethonal being artificially created by the government or is it a result of the free market to provide an alternative source of fuel? Or is it like many things a combination of both government intervention and the free market.

[Tribesman]

Now the question I would of asked - and I don't know the answer to - is the market for ethonal being artificially created by the government or is it a result of the free market to provide an alternative source of fuel? Or is it like many things a combination of both government intervention and the free market.
__________________
Well apart from definitions of free market , it is combination of both . What one must considre is the long forcast decline in the barley market prior to the ethanol corn boost . Barley is a good feed crop , there was lots of peoplemaking big money out of it because the market demanded it , because of the demand you could get good prices becaure the market had to be fed , too many people got into the market and it dropped . Now they are getting into corn because there are good prices for corn .
Barley was screwed anyway even without the ethanol thing , a combination of envromental factors in conjunction with market shifts has led to the price rise .Ethanol is only a small part of the equation .

[Caius]

Alright boys, time of an official beatdown here! So far I count Big King Sankthefranks and Banker's Ghost in, who else is up for our Argentinian reeducation program?! :grin:
Whats your problem?

Im saying the truth, and teh world dont want to believe me. If you want to believe me, read Le Monde Diplomatique. Not that **** of BBC.