Shoguns musketeers and medivals musketeers are good!

[Rokkaku]

Isnt part of medievals change in eras good? and guns especially? because it makes you play diffrently, I hear every1 hates guns, WHY!? just because u are using the same tactics, you have the think diffrently, so guns wont dominate, you ahve to counteract with guns, hell, why do you think we arent still using swords.
People are worried about medievals ranged firepower! why? you have to employ it to and use diffrent.
am I the only one who sees that?

[mizuYari]

This is my take about guns.

Guns in STW was too powerful relative to its cost and to its historical importance. Remember, STW period is the 16th century. It was OK in the single player game, because it is introduced at later period and it is at the expense of usage of monks. But when allowed to be on Multiplayer game and be mixed with other units, we have aberations. For instance:
a) in SP, it will take many years before you could buy guns. It takes the guns several battles to achieve level 2 (they tent to get slaughter easily and they run, so quite hard to gain honor level). But in MP battle, you have guns at cheap 150 Kokus of level 2.

b) You buy the arq type of gun, which are not quite accurate and rarely use in MP battle at the expense of the usage of monks. Monks are quite good in battle field. It costs a lot too. But on battle field, since you could buy cheap guns and put money to monks, you could make an army of shooters and rushers, whereas in SP, cant have guns and monks at the same time, at least not in early time.

c) You couldn't train Ashi enough to get to level 9: ever got Ashi of level 9 in SP game? However, you could in MP.


Now, let me elaborate about historical importance.

There are a few battles in Japan at that period (see the movie Kagemusha) that an army of rushers get slaughtered by guns when the commander of the Takeda army ordered his men charging straight into guns. But we must see how the guns are used at that time.

Guns are mostly static units for defensive purpose at that time. They are deployed in a trench, with pike fortifications (guarding against Cav). As soon as they wander outside the trench, they got slaughtered by cav. That's because the firing rate of guns at that time was not fast enough.

Guns doesn't work in rain. However, multiplayer battle, people forced to play in fair weather, because rain would lag the game so much it wont be fun.

I must say that only in Napoleonic time, end of 18th century, beginning of 19th century that guns and cannon got its importance.

You got the point by saying: "This is only a game, just adapt to it." But if it makes the game more multi-demensional game (like "I dare you to bring 6 cannons to the battle field, you may not win" but here on STW, we have to have rules like 4max and no ashi), it is perhaps better.

MizuYari

[Emp. Conralius]

In STW thy were too powerful. One time I routed a unit of 120 heavy cav with 3 barrages of gunfire. But they are essential in MTW! Let's not forget Constantinople...

[Rokkaku]

I think your points are well founded and good, thank you, so what do you make of cannons, see my other topic, "cannons will offer massive tactical options" what do you think of them?
I think they will add a lot of depth, its in my other topic.

------------------
"U dare challenge the drunken ninjas!"
Rokkaku of the Drunken Ninjas

[Rokkaku]

no, lets not...
I think they will enhance the game tactically

[mizuYari]

I believe if we could use guns for destruction of castles, then that is good. We can have siege type of game and destroy the only livelihood of the castle campers.

I still believe online battles have to be connected to online campaigns to have real meaning.

MizuYari

[carnage]

i didnt know guns were around in the 1000-1400 times

[mizuYari]

According to the postings, there wont be any hand guns, but there are some cannons. Marco Polo period is around 13th century and gun powder made way to Europe. Perhaps cannons are available in the last third of the game.

Here are the list of stuff perhaps not modeled in MTW (not a complaint, just an illustration of military history) besides using catapults, trebuchets, culverins or cannons:

1. Tunnels are dug (favorite of Italians);
2. Ramps are built (Roman tactics);
3. Trenches/moats are filled (no respectable castle wouldn't have one, due to tunnel digging);
4. corpses are hurled into castle to demoralize and bring desease;
5. Troops inside castle are starved.
6. Wall are scaled.
7. Send fire inside castle to burn down structure;

Castle defenders:
1. pour hot oils on attackers;
2. throw stones;
3. fire arrows;
4. find tunnels and pour water down to drown attackers;
5. find tunnels and make tunnels collapse;
6. close iron gates behind attackers;

In China, there is a famous battle where an army divert a river into the castle, drown the defenders.

Talk about warfare that it is hard to model with a software. So, stick with simple device such as catapult is good enough.

MizuYari

[youssof_Toda]

guns jst suck cuz they ruin the entire game in MI. if someone in STW took let's say 6 guns he was chanceless cuz a good charge would take him out. they might have been cheap in STW but most players i knew didn't take more than 3 or 4 to keep their army balanced.

btw guns were WEAKER in STW than in MI. why do you think we made the "4 guns max rule" in MI and not in STW?

[This message has been edited by youssof_Toda (edited 07-17-2002).]

[LordTed]

Please no guns in medievil........

[Wong]

i dont think guns and cannons with ruin the game at all we all know that gun units are weak hand to hand wise so if not propley protected they can be taken out easly

and cannons i have heard they cant be manovered which if true they wernt be overly usefull unless propley placed.

and yes it will add lots of tactical possabilitys.

[Rokkaku]

the reason guns were so powerful was the fact that nobody made diffrent armies evolving around the gun, guns became your core instead of yari samurai, people I saw used guns as archers, when they were actually the core unit during later periods.
Long live guns in medieval!!!!

[A Nerd]

I feel guns should be involved int thje game...mostly for all the reasons stated above...it is a unique unit, it has tactical advantages and disadvantages, they can become well balanced...the major issue arises in MP...my view basically is to chose your opponent or 'know him'...basicallly we must remember that games are played in friendly competition and some guidelines though perhaps stifling and hard to impose are more important that the actual piece itslef...I think they will add depth, fun and replayability (tactics, etc.) to SP...I never used guns in STW (to change subject)... but had H3 muskets in a rank 5 army and they were quite impressive...as long as I protected them, so much so that I am going to play as a Cristian...no monks and see how I fare...(as Hojo or Useugi) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Rokkaku]

yeh, but Im all in favour of loads of guns myself

[vyanvotts]

same, guns add more tactics

[Emp. Conralius]

The Turks used tunnels too...besides their favorites....

[Rokkaku]

at last, someone agrees with me about guns....

[sasasaizo]

Hi all, first post on this forum just my little input on guns.
The hand guns at their introduction were very basic with an unbelievably slow rate of fire, mainly used for siege warfare. If they are included they should not be in large units but like the thunder bombers in small groups.
No way were they used in volley fire. This was first noted in 1570 when Oda Nobunaga fortresses at Kawaguchi and Takadono were attacked by warrior monk armies which had a contingent of Shingon sect?s gunners. These battles predate Nagashino by five years when Nobunaga used the tactic against Takeda Katsuyori.
Volley fire was not noted in western armies until I believe the 1680s.
Sorry if any of this has been said before.

There was mention that no hand gunners are to be in the game. On reading this I remembered a screen shot of a Byzantine army invading Lesser Armenia date 1327 which shows a full army of 16 units, including 1 bombard and what look like two units of 60 hand gunners hmmmm. These could be crossbow men but the firing position/stance looks wrong to me.
You will find them several threads down in the forum "Bunch of new screen shots"
The link below however far right screen shots
http://www.bluesnews.com/screenshots/games/medieval/20020713tb/

The other thing that may have happened is that they have now decided not to include the unit as they did with the Father Visitor in the original STW (do you remember that one in the early reviews) must be 3 to 4 years ago.
Here is the small description that went with the image.

The Father Visitor
There is only ever one Father Visitor, the head of the Church in Japan.
The first person to build him gets to use him until he dies. As an emissary
to Christian Daimyo he is unsurpassed, and can order them to accept
alliances on pain of excommunication. They are however subject to Ninja
attack, so it's not generally a long term appointment.
Cost 2000
Time: Twelve Seasons
Produced By: Cathedral

I thought this was a great loss to Christian campaign games.
Ever had Christian and Shinto Buddhist allied against you? Hmmmm!
This would have made playing the Christian option more interesting.



[This message has been edited by sasasaizo (edited 07-17-2002).]

[Stephen Hummell]

Guns and cannons won't ruin it, I like it.

[Rokkaku]

Father, what?

[sasasaizo]

i don't know the general age of posters here but if you can remember Shogun TV mini series staring Richard Chamberlain. The Father Visitor appears several times. He was the head of the Christian Church in Japan.

[Kishokan]

Yes I remember the series he prevented the Portuguese captain from killing Blackthorne.

[Emp. Conralius]

I wanna see the Siege Cannon! Yan know. that really big one.

[Stephen Hummell]

Me too!!

[RageMonsta]

Wait till you see the GIANT SHISH KEBAB DART CANNON OF THE TURKS.

[LordTed]

Guns on multiplayer will become a weapon everyone has to lean on. I dont want to see that happen again, but it seems its going to.

[Thane Talain MacDonald]

Actually, it seems to me that the only man-portable guns will be short-range handguns. Guns during this age were nowhere near as effective as guns during the age of Shogun.

[AggonyNaak daidoji]

Does that kebab come over the wall with all the trimmings?
Cos it,s just gonna feed the defenders a treat.
Not good for starving them out hehe.
Naak.

[Aelfred Magna]

LordTed I hope you're wrong in your prediction . . . the last thing I want to see is lines of musket (or arq, as the case may be) bearing troops lining up on European battlefields a century or two before their time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[youssof_Toda]

not to mention that handguns would be historically inaccurate. the first CANNONS were used during the 100-year war between France and England and they were rarely used, not only because they were very immobyle but also because the guns were very likely to explode themselves. if 'guns' are involved it should be only cannons and they should also be likely to explode and very immobyle.

btw besides all this their fire rate was also limited to a few shots PER DAY.

[This message has been edited by youssof_Toda (edited 07-19-2002).]

[Rokkaku]

yeh but cavalry detroys guns, as long as you time it, u have to use timing with guns!