Scripting questions

[primipilus]

Disliking the 4 turns x year above all, I didn't activate the EB script.
Does anyone knows what I'm really going to loose?
I mean, wich are the part of the game affected by the scripting?
And one more question.
Is it possible to activate the script maintaining the 2 turns x year?.
Thanks everybody!

[bovi]

Everything.
Everything.
Yes, by deleting the section of EBBS_Script.txt that concerns the 4tpy.

[primipilus]

Thank's,
Thank's,
but would it possible to have some little more information?
And in wich directory can I found the scripting file?

[bovi]

It's in EB\Data\scripts\show_me.


;========================================================
;Index:
;----------------------------------------
;1: Reforms
; 1a: Celtic Reforms
; 1b: Saka Reforms
; 1c: Roman Reforms
; 1d: Seleukid Cataphract Reforms
;2: Government Building Management
;3: Population Replenishment
;4: Money Assistance
; 4a: Difficult Start Help
; 4b: City Income Bonus
;5: Victory Conditions
; 5a: Flash VCs Script
; 5b: Victory Conditions Triggers
;6: Allied Cities Script
; 6a: Qarthadastim vs. Ptolemaioi (Ammonion)
; 6b: Attacks on Chersonesos (KH)
; 6c: Attacks on Byzantion (Pontos)
; 6d: Halikarnassos (Ptolemaioi)
; 6e: Kallatis (Getai)
; 6f: Qarthadastim vs. Ptolemaioi (Kyrene)
; 6g: Seleukids vs. Ptolemaioi (Kyrene)
; 6h: Nikaia (Pontos)
; 6i: Pantikapaion (KH)
; 6j: KH vs. Pontos (Sinope)
; 6k: Thermon (KH)
; 6l: Trapezous (KH)
; 6m: Qarthadastim vs. Romani (Messana)
;7: Special Events
; 7a: The Chersonesos Event
; 7b: Tomb Of Alexander
; 7c: Baktrian Independence
; 7d: Roman Triumph
; 7e: Seleukid Anabasis
; 7f: Pahlava Shahanshah
; 7g: Sweboz Triumphs
; 7h: Devastation Script
; 7i: Parthia Horse Discount
; 7j: Gauls - Epeiros Alliance
; 7k: Celtiberian Alliance
;8: Four Turns Per Year Script

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The biggest loses are 1 through 4 on that list.

1 Reforms are an essential part of factions like the Romans. Without the script you will be stuck with you starting units only.

2 The AI needs to have the script activated or it will not get governments placed. Without governments it will take a while to build one on their own. And when they do build a government, it probably won't be right for the region and their recruitment will be screwed up. Without this script the game is pretty broken.

3 The AI will deplete their cities of people pretty fast. (Though without the money script it may not be a problem.)

4 The money script gives money to the AI because the game has been balanced to be difficult for the player. The AI can't handle this. Most likely the majority of AI factions will go into debt and stagnate until you roll over them. Without this script the game is easy-as/easier-than vanilla.

[BozosLiveHere]

Yes, by deleting the section of EBBS_Script.txt that concerns the 4tpy.

That's not enough, the traits will be all messed up if he does that.

[bovi]

:oops:

[mcantu]

I too strongly dislike 4tpy. I believe it severely unbalances AI behavior and results in the Black Death and Grey Death and the endless AI superstacks (even with the money/merc mods), that we are all familiar with

[bovi]

How exactly can you attribute an inbalance in AI behaviour to the fact that there are 4 seasons?

[mcantu]

They have double the opportunity to expand and add troops while movement rates are the same as they were for 2tpy.

In my current Getai campaign (VH/M), the Selucids already have all of Asia Minor and its only 246

[bovi]

:inquisitive: They do exactly the same stuff in a given number of turns whether those turns represent half or a fourth as many years. The stacks have nothing to do with that part of the script, they come from the assistance given to the AI.

[mcantu]

But the AI now has twice as many turns in which to act. It could be that the AI is behaving as if it still has half any turns in which move/attack/recruit. Increased build times help but recruitment is still 1 turn for most units.

Its been along time since I played a 2tpy mod and I cant remember if the endless stacks and the Black/Gray Deaths were problems there too. Those things do seem to happen in most of the 4tpy mods I've played.

It just doesnt seem realistic for a faction to steamroll through all the of the Middle East and Asia Minor in 34 years (136 turns) and drain all of its cities population to under 1000 to build up its stacks.

What are the commands that affect IA growth and behavior (Fortified Ceasar, etc)?

[primipilus]

First of all thank you everybody for the comprehensive answers.

Then, let me agree with MCantu about the problems created by the 4tpy script, that allows to make the conquest of great extensions of land in very few years (from 25 to 35). That really doesn't seem historical, while with the 2tpy system everithing is far more realistic.
Please explain me also what black and grey Death are.

Last but not least let me ask two more questions!
1) Does the elimination of the 4tpy script affect the functions of the mod or will it run without problems?
2) Does the activation of the script prevent the slave armies to move from the cities where they are statione once the original named characters present in the descr_strat.txt are dead?

Thanx again!

[bovi]

There's no need for us to come to a consensus on the effects of having 4tpy, so I'm dropping that discussion.

The grey death is the Arche Seleukeia, who tend to dominate in 0.81a games and create lots and lots of armies against their human neighbour. I assume the black death must be Makedonia as their color is black, but they by no means always dominate (usually getting wiped pretty early in my experience), so I'm not sure what he's getting at.

Elimination of the 4tpy will be problematic. As Bozos said, parts of our traits system relies on it.

Free armies require a general to stay put in their settlements. When they die, the garrison will start wandering around no matter if you have the script activated or not.

[Xehh II]

4 turns per year rules! It makes it way better and I do think a big empire can take over Asia Minor in 34 years, it's quite realistic.

[bovi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great

Alexander the Great (Greek: Μέγας Aλέξανδρος,[1][2] Megas Alexandros; July 20, 356 BC – June 10, 323 BC), also known as Alexander III, was an Ancient Greek king of Macedon (336–323 BC).

Not entirely unhistorical.

[Cybvep]

I'm also a fan of 4tpy, and I can see at least two things that make it great - family members live "longer" and you don't end up fighting half of the battles in winter!

[Swordmaster]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great

Alexander the Great (Greek: Μέγας Aλέξανδρος,[1][2] Megas Alexandros; July 20, 356 BC – June 10, 323 BC), also known as Alexander III, was an Ancient Greek king of Macedon (336–323 BC).

Not entirely unhistorical.

You beat me to it, bovi.

As a matter of fact, I would prefer 8 tpy, or even 12. Really, it's entirely unrealistic for a fleet to need half a year to sail from Italy to Africa, or for a family member to come of age in Iberia, immediately leave for Rome only to arrive when he's 25 or so.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

But the AI now has twice as many turns in which to act. It could be that the AI is behaving as if it still has half any turns in which move/attack/recruit. Increased build times help but recruitment is still 1 turn for most units.

Its been along time since I played a 2tpy mod and I cant remember if the endless stacks and the Black/Gray Deaths were problems there too. Those things do seem to happen in most of the 4tpy mods I've played.

It just doesnt seem realistic for a faction to steamroll through all the of the Middle East and Asia Minor in 34 years (136 turns) and drain all of its cities population to under 1000 to build up its stacks.

What are the commands that affect IA growth and behavior (Fortified Ceasar, etc)?
The strength of the AI is not related to the 4tpy. It is just a coincidence that most mods that use 4tpy also like to strengthen the AI. If you removed the 4tpy, you would have the same steamrolling over the middle east in 68 years (136 turns) and 1000 population. The only real thing that 4tpy does is makes the year counter slow down.

It is more realistic to have 4 turns per year, since it doesn't take 20 years to march an army from Italy to Asia.

First of all thank you everybody for the comprehensive answers.

Then, let me agree with MCantu about the problems created by the 4tpy script, that allows to make the conquest of great extensions of land in very few years (from 25 to 35). That really doesn't seem historical, while with the 2tpy system everithing is far more realistic.
Please explain me also what black and grey Death are.

Last but not least let me ask two more questions!
1) Does the elimination of the 4tpy script affect the functions of the mod or will it run without problems?
2) Does the activation of the script prevent the slave armies to move from the cities where they are statione once the original named characters present in the descr_strat.txt are dead?

Thanx again!
1) Yes, problems!
2) Those are done through traits and not by the script. But not activating the script causes much bigger problems than that. See my previous post.

[primipilus]

The discussion that has originated in the thread seems really interesting.

In my opinion the most important statements till now are the subsequents:
1) the 4tpy system risk to be unhistorical in the fact that allows the creation of enormous conquests in very limited periods of time (25-40 years, whereas, in reality, the achievements of a strategic and tactical genius like Alexander the Great remains absolutely unique),
2) the 2tpy system isn’t realistic so far as involved in the tactical level, because it restrains so much the army’s and navy’s movements,
3) the great amount of cash granted by the inner script unbalances a bit the game, allowing the AI controlled factions to field vast armies,
4) the presence of great stacks of mercenary troops isn’t historical.

Maybe the right solution could be this one:
• 4tpy system wich solve the problem n. 2)
• heigthened period for training units, 2 and maybe also 3 turns for infantry and 3 or 4 turns for cavalry, chariots and elephants: this would be historical because the troops needed at least six months to train a bit and would slow down not only the process of building up vast armies but also the expansion rate of the biggest factions solving problems n. 1) and 3),
• balancing minimod to solve problem n. 4).

Any comment?

[Ravenic]

1) the 4tpy system risk to be unhistorical in the fact that allows the creation of enormous conquests in very limited periods of time (25-40 years, whereas, in reality, the achievements of a strategic and tactical genius like Alexander the Great remains absolutely unique),

Caesar anyone? Blitzkrieg of France? In all reality, it's very possible to obtain enormous conquests in 25-40 years (the active lifespan of a single man, really). It only requires good supply lines, a strong and charismatic leader with a good grasp of tactics and strategics, and an advanced, modern army that is motivated and skilled. Granted, this doesn't happen much in history, but I think that in EB I could manage it *wink*


heigthened period for training units, 2 and maybe also 3 turns for infantry and 3 or 4 turns for cavalry, chariots and elephants:

Historically accurate or not is irrelevant here...that would just be painful.


this would be historical because the troops needed at least six months to train a bit.

Not really. Levy troops would need all of five minutes to train after they're given a spear and wicker shield, and then they're sent to battle. Further, I tend to think alot of 'recruitment' is actually something more like 'call-up'. Some units even have it in their descriptions that they work as farmers, but when the King needs an army, they'll grab their spears and armor and be a ready-made force already trained, equiped, etc. because they train in their off-time as farmers. By the logic of normal units taking six months to train, then units like that should take '0' turns to recruit.

[Redmeth]

Another example would be the Mongol Empire, it is possible but it couldn't hold for a long time just like Alexander's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mongol_dominions.jpg
That's why I love EB's government system where you can play as a steady conqueror that builds up their newly acquired territories and then moves on.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

• balancing minimod to solve problem n. 4).
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87649

[Geoffrey S]

To be honest I've always liked the idea of extending all training times to two turns. Would slow down AI and player expansion and really make me think about what I want to train. I might try that some day.