Bizarre Religious Conversions

[Boleslaw Wrymouth]

I'm wondering if anyone else is bothered that Poland and Hungary have magically become Orthodox in this game. I realize not many of you who have been posting are dying to play Poland, and Hungary isn't even playable(unfortunately), but doesn't this put you off? I was obviously excited about playing Poland so I'm being more active about this on the forum, but if Russia was Muslim I would be just as put off. How about an Orthodox England or a Catholic Egypt? Wouldn't this piss some people off?

How would making these nations historically correct and thus Catholic unbalance the game? Do the Catholic countries act as a bloc in MTW? Can the Pope declare a crusade against Orthodox Christians (please be "no")in MTW? I can put up with a lot in the name of playability and streamlining but I just don't understand this decision. How far can a designer go before turning a historically based game into a fantasy game?


So, is anyone but me and a few others on this board bothered by this?

[This message has been edited by Boleslaw Wrymouth (edited 07-19-2002).]

[Prodigy]

Pope (and you) can call crusade against anyone, even the same religion. For example, you are HRE and you excommunicate (attack him, etc) with the Pope, his "next" step is calling all "loyal" Catholic fractions to join crusade against you.
http://www.fourbelowzero.com/games/strategy/MTW/images/1096popecrus.jpg

Or he (Pope and any joined fraction) can do crusading himself.
http://www.fourbelowzero.com/games/strategy/MTW/images/1101crusade.jpg

Or you can read the whole thing at:
http://www.fourbelowzero.com/games/strategy/MTW/campaign/english.htm

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I am the law and you can't beat the law.

[Bohemond]

As I stated before, I am very disappointed if this should really be the case. For me this is on the same level like the omission of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the minor Crusader States, which were the faction I was looking forward to playing most.

A note: Things like this seem to go quite unnoticed at the org. People mostly seem to be concerned with MP and how well their own Nationality will fare in the game. I was always interested in historical debate, but so far the org was a big disappointment. I bet this thread will remain mostly unnoticed, like some historical remarks or questions I raised occasionally.

I feel for ya, Boleslaw Wrymouth. Btw, what an apt name for a supporter of the polish case!

[Boleslaw Wrymouth]

Quote Originally posted by Prodigy:
Pope (and you) can call crusade against anyone, even the same religion. For example, you are HRE and you excommunicate (attack him, etc) with the Pope, his "next" step is calling all "loyal" Catholic fractions to join crusade against you. [/QUOTE]

Yes, thats fine although I wouldn't call it a crusade. Popes did call for the removal or punishment of Catholic Kings who were not in obeisance but a Crusades attraction was in the forgiveness of all past sins and all FUTURE sins committed while on the crusade. I can't recall any instance in which this boon was granted for an attack on a Catholic nation. Although I may be wrong and if I am I'm sure it was France. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

There was never a crusade or any other Papally Approved(TM) attack on an Orthodox nation as far as I know. The Popes spent all of their time trying to repair the schism and when it became clear that it was impossible the Popes deferred. Both sides, Pope and Patriarch, had no authority to request or demand attacks on religious grounds. So they never did. Medieval society was all about authority and who had it over whom. Some kings and Dukes challenged this but they had armies, the two P's only had souls and glamour. And they had no authority over each other.

As I said before, I'm all for simplification if the results are roughly the same. Call it a Crusade against a Catholic country if it produces similiar results. This game is too good to quibble about something like that. I will quibble a little bit if its possible to declare some sort of religious war between the two Christian sects. Its just silly, unless its political and issued from Muscovy.

[Boleslaw Wrymouth]

Quote Originally posted by Bohemond:
As I stated before, I am very disappointed if this should really be the case. For me this is on the same level like the omission of the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the minor Crusader States, which were the faction I was looking forward to playing most.

A note: Things like this seem to go quite unnoticed at the org. People mostly seem to be concerned with MP and how well their own Nationality will fare in the game. I was always interested in historical debate, but so far the org was a big disappointment. I bet this thread will remain mostly unnoticed, like some historical remarks or questions I raised occasionally.

I feel for ya, Boleslaw Wrymouth. Btw, what an apt name for a supporter of the polish case![/QUOTE]

Is there a game where you can play the Outremer Kingdoms?Outremer, is that correct? It's been awhile)? I would LOVE to find it! I wonder why MTW couldn't accomodate that. Mabye not all the bells and whistles but at least the basics. They have all the art and units to simulate any medieval kingdom you can think of.

I posted something similiar on .com and as I told them, it's preaching to the converted. They know and are irritated. Just a different philosophy I guess. I think this is the market CA wants, those who want a Medieval Exploding Cannonball, preferably with Napalm. And some sort of machinegun and a spy Wh0 sEd00zEs U d00d.

Boleslaw Krzywouthy (Wrymouthed) was the kind of character thats makes this period of history so great. He was Reynald de Chatillon with responsibilities. I'm glad you recognized the name. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Thanks for the support. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Stephen Hummell]

Seeing the size of the HRE army,I don't know why anyone would go after them.

[Bohemond]

Outremer begs to be modded! This game was originally intended to be Crusader Total War. When I heard the announcement one year ago I jumped from my seat. I expected a complicated map with all the famous places like Jaffa, Sidon, Krak de Chevalliers etc. etc. etc.
Now that they decided to make the game more mass market, they could at least have included Outremer as playable faction. But instead, Palestine, Tripolis, Antioch and Edessa will belong to Egypt now. I really don't understand it, but I am optimistic that we will make a mod. I think it would be even acceptable to "move" all of France to the East, as the Crusader States were mainly french. The question remains, what becomes of the real France then??

Concerning Crusades against other Christian nations. There was one against the Albigensians in France, but they were not a Kingdom, more a sect. Also various popes were many times on the brink of declaring a crusade against Byzantinum. And we all know about the 4th Crusade, that destroyed the old Constantinople and installed a puppet regime called Romania (but without proper backing of the pope).

I think, CA should have thought twice about dropping Outremer and instead turning Crusades into a strategic gimmick.

[Yager]

Hmm.. yes. The market of those who want the exploding cannonball. Have you even seen the level of some of the discussions around here? Most of the games cater to people who love that sort of thing and it is obvious. This game is far from it. There are long heated discussions about the historical accuracy of a piece of pie being digested in 1320 possibly creating the expansionist desires of a King. They are indepth, they are interested.

The reason I somewhat ignore the thread is because it is a lot of speculation. The game isn't even bloody finished yet and already we have people crying foul. You are basing this off of a small bit of code in a demo that wasn't even used. Seriously, settle down. I know there were some screenshots also, but what if an Orthodox nation conquered it during the course of the game? I seriously doubt that, if they know about it, that they will allow the Orthodox to stay. Also, how would they be catering to the exploding cannonball crowd by making a group Orthodox? If anything it would just baffle those players and turn them away as they struggle witht he realization that there are many religons in the world.

[czaralex]

First of all I want to say that I completely agree with you guys that Hungary and most definetely Poland should be Catholic.
But if you look at it through the balancing of the game, you see that there is only two other Orthodox Nations, Russia and Byzantium, while there are 5 Catholic, and 4 Muslim.

[Boleslaw Wrymouth]

Yager,
If those discussions are happening please point me to them. Most of the traffic seems to be originating from people who want the ultimate MP combo or want to play with camel-mounted cannons. As we all know, the Camel-Tank almost destroyed western civilization.


There is no way to make a "mistake" when it comes to the religious history of the region. I won't save them the embarrassment because they know what they're doing, Thats why I'm so disappointed. I can point it out to CA all I want but this was done on purpose. Pick out a book, the most Anglo-centric history you can find preferably and then look up Poland or Hungary in the index. Most likely the ONLY thing it will mention is that they accepted the Catholic rite circa 1000AD (rounding off).

If the old code changes to something more realistic great. But I don't think it will. Remember, one of the developers ancestry is Polish and I doubt he would have overlooked it.

[This message has been edited by Boleslaw Wrymouth (edited 07-20-2002).]

[Boleslaw Wrymouth]

Quote Originally posted by Bohemond:

Concerning Crusades against other Christian nations. There was one against the Albigensians in France, but they were not a Kingdom, more a sect. Also various popes were many times on the brink of declaring a crusade against Byzantinum. And we all know about the 4th Crusade, that destroyed the old Constantinople and installed a puppet regime called Romania (but without proper backing of the pope).

I think, CA should have thought twice about dropping Outremer and instead turning Crusades into a strategic gimmick.[/QUOTE]

The Albensians were heretics according to any Christian understanding of their times. The belief that the Devil created and rules over all material matter including humans and the physical world and that God is restricted to the spirit was not acceptable to any Christian sect. The Bogumils, in the Balkans, who originated this idea were similarly wiped out. So I don't feel that is Christian v. Christian.

Many Popes were inclined to force the hoped for return of the eastern Church but none, as far as I know, ordered it. And if you mean the sacking and subsequent defiling of Constantinople, that was entirely the work of bored and frustrated Crusaders. Bohemund, if you can find a link or book that even hints that the sacking of the city was Church policy tell me. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I'm serious, maybe I haven't come across it. I'd love to see it. As far as I know, neither church purposley antagonized each other.

[Yager]

The camel tank, further augumented by the Commonwealth's Australian Monkey Tigers, formed a brutal force that annihilated the Mongol Morons.

Given, there are going to be a few people who want an 'ultimate' combo. There is also a equal if not greater portion of the community that wants there to be no ultimate combo. They want every different combo to force new strategy, new tactics. That is what I always look forward to, the interplay between my army and the enemies.

About the Polish once again though. What I'm trying to say was that it was an error from people punching it into the computer. Long hours make people go crazy, when looking at lines and lines of code you could go 'So and so country orthodox... so and so country orthodox... Poland.. orthodox... England, Catholic, France...

I'm not saying for sure that it is an error. You just have to have a little trust in the developers. From what I have read in this community, I love it.

[Bohemond]

Boleslaw. Sorry my post was mis-understandable and misunderstood (plz. contribute this to my over ambitious use of english, with is not my first language).

What I wanted to point out is that I agree on this point. In reality there never were Crusades against Christian nations, (apart from the unusual incidents I listed), but in the game will be many, and I think the game should better be kept free of this sort of thing.

And yes, we are speculating a lot here, but
that is a natural habit of intelligent gamers, especially during this pre-release tension. And maybe I should include an attachment that says something like:

"No matter how much I whine about trifle, I have already decided to buy this game on the day it was announced."

btw, I can still remember who announced it and when: (hatamoto, july 2001)

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

It shows very poor historical accuracy if all of Eastern Europe is Orthodox. The developers should take care of this before the game comes out as religion is one of the "golden goals" for Poland.

[Cheetah]

Boleslaw I agree with you, I am sure that this would upset many people in Poland or in Hungary, especially since, as far as I know, people in Poland (and to some extent in Hungary too) are still take religion very seriously. (Though, I am sure that most of them never heard about STW or MTW.) For the others who take this issue less seriously, just think of the Almohads or Turkey portrayed as Catholic factions. Absurd? It is equally absurd to portray Poland and Hungary as Orthodox just because some "game balance" issues.

[Emp. Conralius]

I agree with Cheetah. Sure, blasphemy is probably the term used when you here that Hungary and Poland are Orthodox, but the absurd notion of the Almohads or the Turks being Christian for balancing purposes would be rediculous.

[Yager]

I'm with you guys on this if they did this for 'balancing purposes'. It is a crime to change a nations religon for something like that. My thing about this is that I doubt they did it on purpose.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

Look at this quote:@["FSM_faction_info_faction_POLISH_HIGH"]
@{"After a century of expansion profiting from the weakness of its neighbours and its strong relationship with the Empire and the Papacy, Poland remains potentially strong, at least for the moment. The Polish monarchy has managed to hold onto many of its relatively new possessions and Polish military strength has allowed resistance to the demands of the Empire as the power relationship changed."}
@{"The borders of the kingdom of Poland are not, however, set in stone: both opportunity and danger wait on all sides. Primogeniture - inheritance by the first-born - is not practiced in Poland, and the division of lands between children in every generation can make it hard to keep a kingdom intact; there is a tendency for the King to be the first among equals compared to the nobility. Even with these problems, the neighbouring petty principalities and dukedoms could fall before an aggressive, organised attack, and a cunning Polish King could take advantage of his smaller neighbours' weaknesses. All around are potentially rich pickings but all have risks, especially any expansionary move that will bring Poland into competition with Imperial power in Germany. The Russian princes to the east are less of a threat, but there are new threats beyond them. The steppe peoples are on the move once again, and a Polish ruler who does not keep an eye on Russian ambitions and the steppes is foolish indeed! Equally foolish is to ignore the intentions of the Holy Roman Emperor should his desire for land lead him to look at Polish territory."}
@{"The Catholic Church remains strong in Poland, and a useful tool for its kings to exploit, as there are pagans and Orthodox Christians to the east as rivals and (potential) enemies. The support of Mother Church can be relied upon, as there are still many places within reach of Polish arms where souls are ripe for salvation through conquest."}.

Someone is misled.

[Bohemond]

Lets hope the best. CA are not fools after all.

[Cheetah]

I agree, lets hope the best http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Papewaio]

Potentially with all the mod capacity even if it is wrong we will be able to get it changed fairly quickly or do it ourselves patch. And until it is released we may be getting a bit anxious about something that is not true.

So keep posting your concerns but remember nothing is set in stone even when it is released!

Have Fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Boleslaw Wrymouth]

After the post by Beavis, I'll agree too and hope for the best. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Boleslaw Wrymouth]

Bohemund,

Have you heard of a game called Crusader Kings done by the same guys who did Europa Universalis? It's far from finished but the idea is you play a dynasty instead of a country and can start with anyone called a King, Duke or Prince when the game starts. By those standards Outremer kngdoms should be playable. It won't have the great battle portion of MTW, but should have a much richer diplomatic portion. Heres the link...check out the forum for some good discussions about the game and the period.
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusader.asp