A Critical look at the Dacian/Getae Representation

[Romano-Dacis]

Overall, the representation of the Getai is MUCH better in EB than in R:TW, and it really is a commendable achievement that this team has done. I love the shield textures, the unit selection, and almost everything about them. This mod has actually made it fun to play as the Dacians, something which they weren't in R:TW.

However, there are a few minor criticisms:
1) The Getai should get stone walls: Depictions on Trajan's column show stone fortifications belonging to the Getai. It is also written that the Getai/Dacians ha the strongest fortresses in the "Barbarian" world. Szarmisegetusa was a venerable fortress, which the Romans only took through the betrayal of one of Decebal's subjects.

2) The Macedonian-style coifs are inaccurate. Archaeological discoveries have revealed only coifs rounded at the top. A better representation of Dacian helmets were those worn by the Chosen Swordsmen in R:TW. If you would like further details on how to make the coifs and armor more accurate, I'd be happy to oblige.

3) Are all the unit names written in Greek because there are very few records left of the Dacian language? If so, then it's a compromise which has to be made. However, the use of the words Komatai and Tarabostes is greatly appreciated.

Sorry if I seem pushy or like I'm just rushing at you with a list of demands, but I just thought it would be better if I listed all my criticisms in one post.

This is by no means an indication that I dislike this mod, quite the opposite is true. This mod is comparable to a true work of art. I just want to make this mod as good as possible.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

1) The Dacians didn't have walls like in RTW. Made of cut stone, five stories tall, smooth, and straight. Plus, I'm under the impression that, yes they had stone walls and road in AD115, but didn't in 272BC.

2) :shrug:

3) Yes, little is left of Dacian language. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong and I'm not sure of this, but I remember hearing that the Getai tribe (but not other 'Dacians') had adopted a form of Greek.

[Romano-Dacis]

Alright, maybe the helmet thing is a little picky, but still, when you combine it with the Greek unit descriptions the Getai seem almost TOO Hellenized.

With regards to the Getai language, I'm not sure about the Hellenization of their language. From what I know, the Getic language is the same as the Dacian one, as described by contemporary Greek and Roman historians, which is slightly similar to Thracian languages, but modern historians suggest that they were still significantly different to show that the Dacians/Getai were a different people. That being said, I doubt they used words like "Stratiotai", "Hippeis", "Toxotai" etc. I realize there are almost no vestiges left of Dacian in any modern language, except for around 200 words in Romanian (Brad = tree, buza = lip, baiat = boy etc.), and some Romanian toponyms (Carpati, Dunare [Donaris] etc.)

As for the stone walls, I'm just wondering because I read somewhere that some Celtic factions would have stone walls. I'm not sure if they should or shouldn't be given to the Getai as well. On the one hand, the Romans did have to conquer stone fortresses in 106 A.D., but those might only have been built with the help of Roman architects and engineers sent to the Dacians after the battle of Tapae in 88 A.D. (The Romans made the Dacians a "client-state" but the diplomatic results were almost degrading to the Romans, who had to send tribute, engineers, and siege weapons to the Dacians).

In any case, these are really minor things, all in all, I congratulate this team for their superb representation of the Getai.

[Moros]

No the helmet thing isn't picky. If it's wrong it's wrong, I don't know if it's wrong tough, but if you think something is wrong you can post it. One of our historians will respond when they have time (they're quite bussy tough). We don't mind critisism our oppinions as long as people are polite, which you were. Thanks for that by the way. ~:bow:

I believe that greek was simply used, because the historians weren't able to make most of the names and stuff with the little that was left of the language. And chose greek as it seemed the second appropriate language IIRC.

Also if you like to help with the getai and/or other factions perhaps contact TK-421 our recruiter. ~:)

[Ludens]

As for the stone walls, I'm just wondering because I read somewhere that some Celtic factions would have stone walls. I'm not sure if they should or shouldn't be given to the Getai as well. On the one hand, the Romans did have to conquer stone fortresses in 106 A.D., but those might only have been built with the help of Roman architects and engineers sent to the Dacians after the battle of Tapae in 88 A.D. (The Romans made the Dacians a "client-state" but the diplomatic results were almost degrading to the Romans, who had to send tribute, engineers, and siege weapons to the Dacians).

In any case, these are really minor things, all in all, I congratulate this team for their superb representation of the Getai.
The Celts don't have stone walls as yet. They will hopefully get Oppida walls at some point, but currently the team lacks someone to implement this. I imagine that at that point, the Roman and Greek walls will also be lowered.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Why does faction X not have stone walls or paved roads in the game?

Stone walls are not all created equal. A Getic stone wall in our mod's time period is not the same as the stone walls *the RTW game has*. Everyone would agree they have some type of stone wall, though they get bigger as the period progressed, but when you came up on a Getic city with "stone walls" even the best ones in our period don't look anything at all like the ones in RTW. Nothing like them. You could make arguments for this all over too - say that because stone walls or sections of stone walls are found in any other fortress on the map, that every faction ought to have the stone walls in the game.

The same thing holds true for stone roads. Argue that there was stone found on a sacred street near a sanctuary in a town, and therefore the Getai faction could have stone streets. Or any other faction that doesn't have them. Look at the bigger picture - how it compares to other factions too - and what the RTW engine can do. Are suddenly Sabaean roads equal to Greek ones? Getic ones equal to Carthaginian ones? Did the Lusotannan have any stone walls that looked anything at all or should be equal to stone walls (of the same level) in Italy or Mesopotamia?

[Tellos Athenaios]

1) Stone walls, we would want them; but RTW stone walls don't suffice and our own haven't yet been implemented. - We are in dire need of people who can do such things, it seems.
2) Macedonian Coifs. Hmm, I wouldn't know about that one. Providing pictures how they should look like would be great.
3) Hellenic names. Well, there are a few things which amount to hellenic names:
Proper Getai names that we know of are scarce;
The Getai were pretty hellenised compared to most of Thracian / Dacian world. Thracians have been in contact with the Hellenic world for centuries, and both cultures have been influenced by the other. - Many Thracians would serve as mercenaries; Thracians got lots of their equipment by taking it from other peoples (Skythes and Hellenes).

[russia almighty]

Teleklos have you contacted the people at blue lotus yet ? They've managed to change the appearance of walls . They probably can adjust the height too so they would be your best bet for wall modification .

[paullus]

Hey Romano-Dacis, could you clarify what you mean by this point:


2) The Macedonian-style coifs are inaccurate. Archaeological discoveries have revealed only coifs rounded at the top. A better representation of Dacian helmets were those worn by the Chosen Swordsmen in R:TW. If you would like further details on how to make the coifs and armor more accurate, I'd be happy to oblige.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean helmets? Hair styles? Caps?

Thanks for the comments. The Greek is used because it is the most suitable replacement. The Getai had close contact with Greeks, and, at least among the nobility, many could converse with Greeks. Without a Getic tongue in which to render our unit names, Greek is probably closest, and may well have been used in some military contexts anyway.

I think others have answered as per the walls. If we could get a short oppida fortification, I'm fine with that. If we can get an oppida-looking wall with the normal wall sizes, I'm pretty happy there too. But for now, I find those large stone walls less realistic than limiting the Getai to wooden walls.

[Romano-Dacis]

Hmm... Well, I've done a little research and apperantly the Phyrgian-style helmet (the one with the forward-facing knob at the top) was used, but so was a helmet similar to the Sarmatian helmets.
An image of a helmet discovered in a Dacian treasury, dating to the 4th century BC:
http://arts.iasi.roedu.net/cucuteni/arheo/importanta/coif.jpg

Here are some examples of the helmets shown on Traian's column:

http://members.tripod.com/dacians1/ospreyh.gif

a-g are the phyrgian style helmets. However, the Dacian helmets difer from the hellenic ones because there seems to be a decorated metal crest running down the (middle?) of the helmet. Helmet H is identified as being a Sarmatian helmet, but I and J could well have been worn by the Dacians, especially the cavalry.

So now it seems there is a dilemma: do we change the helmets on the bodyguard to te domed helmets in the diagram (even though some historians believe the upper classes used the phyrgian helmets), or do we change the Tarabostes fur caps to those helmets (which would take away the novely of the fur caps). I would personally suggest changing the general's helmet (which has that strange-looking crest) to a golden version of one of those domed helmets, and giving another type of domed helmet, made of iron, to the Komatai Hippeis.

In any case, the general's helmet should be changed to a domed helmet, since domed silver and golden helmets have been discovered in all of the Dacian royal tombs.

P.S. Sorry for the long reply.

[paullus]

Ah, the domed DECORATIVE helmets. I highly doubt those would be worn on the battlefield, they're both paper thin and exceedingly expensive. Many burials are found with gold leaf corselets too, does that mean they should be wearing cloth-soft gold sheets instead of real armor? No. Parts of more Hellenic helmets have been found in loose finds and in less rich burials, and we've gone that direction.

Also, your second image didn't work, but I think I know which one you're talking about. Remember that Trajan's Column is several hundred years after our start date, for that reason we've tried to minimize the appearance of things which almost certainly came into Getic use through contact with Sarmatians. So, for example, we do have a Trajan's Column helmet in the build--two perhaps, actually--in the helmet of the Drakophoros, but we felt that was acceptable, since the Drakophoros is a case of borrowing from steppe peoples.

[Romano-Dacis]

I see then, fair enough. Thanks for the clarification Paullus (and everyone else).

While we've got this thread going, is anyone working on the wolf's head standard and a standard bearer for the Getai? It was almost a stereotypically Dacian/Getic symbol.

[Foot]

I see then, fair enough. Thanks for the clarification Paullus (and everyone else).

While we've got this thread going, is anyone working on the wolf's head standard and a standard bearer for the Getai? It was almost a stereotypically Dacian/Getic symbol.

The Getai standard bearer has already been finished, but not yet released afaik. I don't think it has been previewed, so I can't say anymore than that.

Foot

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

While we're mentioning Trajan's collumn I'd point out that using it as a source is highly dubious at best. Even the Romans are not depicted correctly.

[Romano-Dacis]

I am still wondering about giving the Getai stone walls. I mean sure, while the Dacian walls weren't neccessarily of the exaggerated size of the walls in R:TW, I still believe it would be a good addition considering
1) The Dacians did heavily fortify their cities/davas, with walls that were often 3m thick and over 10m tall, made of large stones. It's important to know that the Romans had such trouble with these fortresses that they were immediately dismantled after being conquered and the Dacian capital, Sarmisegetuza, was only taken by treatchery, which allowed the Romans to cut off the water supply to the city. While arguably, the Roman-Dacian wars take place a bit later than the game's time period, I would still suggest it because...
2) The Getai seem to have an obsession with turtling their one city and not moving, and perhaps stone walls will either make them more of a challenge for others to conquer or give them enough security to become more aggressive.

I just believe the Dacians are the most befitting of the Barbarians to get stone walls, given their historical ability to create fortresses which posed serious obstacles to the Roman conquests.

Well, these are my two cents anyway...

[paullus]

we've already stated that we plan to give them stone walls, but you'll need to be patient, i'm not sure whether it'll make it into the next public release or not.

[Thaatu]

2) The Getai seem to have an obsession with turtling their one city and not moving, and perhaps stone walls will either make them more of a challenge for others to conquer or give them enough security to become more aggressive.
This would most likely hinder their expansion even more, because the rebel cities in the area could also build stone walls.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

In our time period? Why do people insist on getting upset with us because we don't include things they like about their favorite factions from later times?

[I Am Herenow]

How is progress with making custom stone walls? Won't it also require making custom siege engines which are the right size for those walls when someone besieges the settlement?

Also, what is blue lotus?

[Moros]

The height will be the same as the normal RTW walls. It wouldn't be doable otherwise.

Blue Lotus is a fantasy mod in medieval Asia, which has completly remodelled and skinned city walls (and other buildings). Its forum is here under the hosted mods section of RTW. (with a new patch comming soon. ~;))

[Romano-Dacis]

Cool, I didn't read that walls were planned.

Another mod which has custom walls is Chivalry: Total War.