Dark Ages: Total War

[ULC]

If the Title hasn't stirred your heart yet, let me explain. I will be doing a Mod that covers 623 to 1078. I just started working on it, but before I really get going on it I would like to know public opinion on such a Mod.

[axel]

i would love to see this mod mate, like a said before on other mods site s i dont know how to mod but a will help in any way if i cane just let me know

[Sigma]

I already said I'd like to help, I'm in full support for this mod :D

[ULC]

Axel, what are your skills?

[axel]

Hi mate

at this moment i got none skills mate i dont know wot programs i got to use,
But i am getting 3d studio max i dont know if i cane make maps or units or other stuff for a mod ? maybe you cane tell me wot program to use and ill give it a go to learn :2thumbsup:

[Kavhan Isbul]

This is my favorite time period, for a variety of reasons. I am not going to be able to help currently, but I really hope there will be others who can help and this mod will come to completion.

[OmarPacha]

I think it is a great idea and I'll give my support if needed.
As the poll proceeds, some more details should help to better understand what we are talking about.
I'd like to know, for instance, on what map the mod will be played;
just because if it's going to employ the base european map, well, this means we are probably
thinking, with a few adjustments of region names and borders, of a Carolingian era mod, or,
anyway, of the first Frankish empire, that should be very interesting :yes: .

Unfortunately I'm not good to modify maps; my skill is on units and buildings icons for strategic map (review panel + Info pics) - as for battles (.lbm), while I'm not able to make shields or work on .buf pieces.

Cheers

[Gimli]

I think it sounds like a great idea! Maybe you could round up some help from some of the other modders like Blind King of Bohemia and Viking Horde on who would be good as helpers! I also am lacking in any modding skills, but I am curious as to what you are planning... Such as: what provinces? what factions? Let me know if there is any busy work (or research) that you need done! I can try at that stuff! :bow:

[ULC]

Here is what I have so far...

Features
For all you catholics: No Pope until Late!
For all you non-catholics: Many, Many, Many more non-catholic factions!
Considerable unit balancing - Every unit has a role, very little room for error, AI is much more intelligent in use and production of units
Unit rosters streamlined - No more redundant units, most factions now have personal rosters and share few units.
More to be added...

Eras
Rise of Islam
Age of Charlemagne
Rise of the Norse

I need help in deciding when the eras start...

Factions ( Colons represent changes from era to era, or the reusage of a faction)
Franks:French - Germanic Faction
Bavarians:Holy Roman Empire - Germanic Faction
Arabs:Umayyids:Abbassids - Islamic Faction
Saxons:Wessex - Germanic Faction
Britons:Welsh - Celtic Faction
East Romans - Roman Faction
Lombards:Italians - Germanic Faction
Visigoths:Asturias:Spanish - Germanic Faction
Avars:Magyars - Steppe Faction
Norse:Gotalanders - Germanic Faction
Basques:Aquitianes:Burgundians - Celtic/Germanic Faction
Bulgars - Steppe Faction
Khazars - Steppe Faction
Cordovans - Islamic/Germanic Faction
Taherts - Islamic Faction
Abkhazians - Islamic/Steppe Faction
Polanes - Steppe/Germanic Faction
Seljuks - Steppe/Islamic Faction
Armenians - Roman Faction
Papacy - Roman/Germanic Faction
Kievians - Steppe/Roman Faction
Tullnids - Islamic Faction
Idrissids - Islamic Faction
Rostov - Steppe Faction
Danes - Germanic Faction
Aghlabids - Islamic Faction
Volga-Bulgars - Islamic/Steppe Faction

Units
I have no concrete Faction unit rosters as of yet, although I have rough ideas, and a few factions differ slightly...

Germanic/Celtic Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Swords
Light Cavalry
Light Archers
Heavy Archers
Heavy Spears
Heavy Swords
Royal Cavalry

Roman Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Swords
Light Cavalry
Light Archers
Heavy Swords
Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Cavalry Archers
Royal Cavalry

Steppe Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Archers
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archers
Heavy Cavalry Archers
Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Spears
Royal Cavalry

Islamic Unit Roster
Light Spears
Light Archers
Light Swords
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archers
Heavy Archers
Heavy Cavalry Archers
Royal Cavalry

Provinces
I am going to add several provinces and change a lot of boundaries, but I am having serious problems with both LMM and Mithal. Here is what each faction currently controls in the early era...

Bavarians
Bavaria
Swabia
Austria
Franconia
Switzerland
Tyrolia

Lombards
Genoa
Milan
Tuscany
Rome
Naples

Visigoths
Castile
Aragon
Portugal
Leon
Valencia

Franks
Aquitiane
Anjou
Brittiany
Normandy
Toulouse
Ile De France
Flanders
Burgundy
Champagne

Saxons
Mercia
Wessex
Saxony
Friesland
Pomerania

Norse
Norway
Sweden
Denmark

East Romans
Cordoba
Granada
Tunisia
Cyrencia
Egypt
Tripoli
Antioch
Edessa
Armenia
Georgia
Trebizond
Lesser Armenia
Anatolia
Nicaea
Constantinople
Greece
Serbia
Bulgaria
Wallachia
Crimea
Crete
Cyprus
Rhodes
Venice
Papal States
Sicily
Corsica
Sardinia

Britons
Wales
Northumbria

Basques
Navarre

Avars
Hungary
Carpathia
Croatia
Moldavia

Bulgars
Kiev
Peryslavl

Khazars
Khzazar

Arabs
Sinai
Palestine
Arabia

Since I can't do this all alone, I need a:
Artist for Unit Bifs ( Textures)
Artist for LBM map
Artist for Flags
A Historian with knowledge of the period, particularly culture, religion, and politics (needed for the Heroes.txt)
Another, full-time, Historian, especially one grounded in dark age warfare
And if need be, another historian on architecture
Possibly a coder for certian files in Loc
An assistant manager for times in which I am not here, who is skilled in public relations
And finally someone who can teach me how to put everything in an installer!

Also, does any one have suggestions for a Finnish, Slavic, and/or Baltic Faction? They were all tribal at the time, so its hard for me tell which should actually be represented. I need them to curb the Bulgars and Khazars from becoming way to powerful to early by snatching up the rebel provinces.

[Kavhan Isbul]

This mod has all the previous excellent mods such as XL, MedMod, PocketMod and P&M to build upon, so I think you should look at combining some of these mods' great features and innovations into the Dark Ages Total War one. I like region specific units, such as Slavs, Alans, Berbers (horses and camels both), etc. Such units ensure that armies would be more realistic and based on the provinces owned by a faction, rather than too generic. For example, the Muslim army conquering Iberia was predominantly made of Berbers, and Avar and Bulgar armies in the Balkans often included Slavs as vassals and mercenaries. I also like limited faction specific rosters such as many of the rosters in MedMod and P&M. They make the game harder, but more challenging and realistic. For example, Steppe rosters should not include any infantry, other than dismounted cavalry (and I really think all cavalry should be able to dismount prior to battle). From XL I liked the balance of the mod and Omar Pasha's beautiful icons.
I can help with information about the Bulgars/Bulgarians throughout the mod, even including heroes (info is scarce but the names of successfull commanders remain, and there are some quite interesting characters once Bulgaria converted to Christianity), and I also know a little about the steppe peoples' arms, armor tactics and strategy. I am afraid I am not of much help as far as Western factions are concerned. Since I am really interested in this mod, I am willing to help with basic modding as well, but I will need a tutor and a mentor, as I do not know almost anything about modding and will have to learn it all.

[axel]

I cane find as much info about the dark ages and give links ill be giving links this week, ill do somme research and post links

[Madshadow202]

Is this supposed to be for MTW or M2TW?

Angry lack of light

[Kavhan Isbul]

Is this supposed to be for MTW or M2TW?

Angry lack of light

Based on the dubforum it is in, MTW.

[Riadach]

Any chance of an Irish Faction, considering the Uí Néill held all of Ulster, most of Connact and Mide at this stage, while holding Leinster as a vassal.

[Antagonist]

Indeed, having the British Isles as exclusively Saxons v. Britons doesn't seem to make much sense by the time of Charlemagne or the Norse...

Antagonist

[Kavhan Isbul]

I have no idea how many slots will be left for each period, but personally I would like to see a faction such as Great Moravia (Dark Ages Bohemia) in that with a position in Central Europe played an important role in the 9th century. As far as the British Isles go, I think Rythmic is creating a really nice conversion of the Viking Invasion campaign. I would not mind Ireland in, especially with its unique units, as long as it is not at the expense of another faction. It is all up to YourLordandConqueror at the end.

[Gimli]

Looks like things are moving right along here! It looks like its gonna be a good one! :2thumbsup:

[ULC]

Actually I was considering the Irish, Picts, and Scots. The problem is actually putting these factions together without making them stagnant. For instance, the Irish for some reason during testing never wanted to leave thier island, even with many ships! The Picts and Scots had a long war that would be very hard to construct with the limited space in Scotland (At the most, I think I can fit in 4 provinces, but thats pushing it). The Irish, most definitely, as their island is big enough, and with a land bridge to "egg them on", they could be a very good faction. If any one has solutions to the Scots/Picts, then tell me. As to the Irish, it could be easily done, I just need a mapper :juggle2: to add some strength to the "Emerald Isles". But I digress, my first and foremost concern is getting working rosters. As such, we need to settle on factions first.

How "Central" is the Great Moravia Kavhan Isbul? I need something to curb Bulgaria and Khazar (besides themselves). A Baltic of Finnic faction would be nice, but I lack the knowledge of which one would be any good.

I also need to know about my unit rosters. I need to know what tactics and weapons Steppe, Slavic, Roman and Celtic factions relied on. I've got Germanic down (Infantry based, with emphasis on heavy units) and I think I have Islamic (Light units, balanced all around). But after that I need names. I am aiming for names that reflect the cultures they come from. For instance, the Bavarian Heavy Swordsmen needs an equivialnt name (or histroical one) IN GERMAN. Same goes with all the other factions.

As to the timeline, this is what I have so far...
Game Start:632
High Start:812
Late Start:??? (Crownig of the First HRE Emperor)
End Date:1078

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great Moravia can only appear in High, when the Avars are gone and the Bulgars firmly in the Balkans and Carpathians. I think Moravia actually appears in the gap left by the disappearance of the Khaganate when it was destroyed by Charlemagne and finished by the Bulgars. In the mod, it can fill the space between Bulgaria and the Franks. At its height, its territory included not only Bohemia, but also parts of Poland, Transylvania and even what is today Northern Serbia. Moravia managed to withstoand several Bulgarian attacks and acted as an ally of the Eastern Roman Empire, and it can deffinitely help contain the Bulgars in High, when they should be most powerful. In Early, I think the Eastern Romans will be enough of a threat to everyone. I cannot come up with an idea of a balancing faction in the Baltic or the Steppes, but the truth is, until the Eastern Vikings founded Kiev Rus, there was none.
I like the idea of giving the units indigenous names. The problem with Bulgar units is that Bulgar as a language did not survive, and modern Bulgarian is a Slavic language. Still, here is what I propose based on what I know. Cavalry only, most of which should disband into a unit similar to the well-known Bulgarian Brigands, but let's call them Bulgar Warriors or simply Bulgars. The cavalry is as follows:
Steppe Cavalry
Horse Archers - nothing special about these two, except that they should be cheap to train and cheap to maintain to ensure great numbers of them
Chigots (standing for brave men, for lack of better term), which I imagine as a unit similar to the Cherniye Klobuki from XL - medium cavalry with high charge and morale, but fair melee and defense. In reality most steppe warriors had bows, even the heaviest armored ones, but giving bows to this unit might make it a little too powerful, so maybe they should be left just with their lances.
Bagaturs (Bagatur meant champion) - this should be the elite heavy cavalry with armor, high charge and high melee, the retinues of kans and princes. Maces and axes were quite popular based on finds, so they should also have some armor piercing bonus and this will actually give the Bulgars an effective unit against the Kataphraktoi, especially if they are given "bonus when attacking cavalry". This should be modelled after the Avar Nobles or Cuman Heavy Cavalry from the XL mod.
The Avars and Khazars should get similar rosters, but instead of the Bagaturi the Avar unit should be called Avar Nobles, of course, and the Khazar one Tarkhans. These were the elite of the Khazar armies and often small numbers of such extremely heavy armed and armored units, with their superb military training, managed to win against incredible odds, at least according to some chronicles about Khazar - Arab wars in the Caucasus. This should probably be the strongest heavy cavalry unit in the entire early and high period.
Finally, to further strengthen the cavalry rosters of the steppe factions, the mod should probably have Steppe Heavy Cavalry with bows and AP bonus available to all of them, but with high requirements.
As for infantry, this role was reserved for the Slavs. If the Slavs are given a cavalry unit, it should have the strength of Horsemen, at best. Their infantry was what they were famous for, according to the Byznatine military essays describing the various enemies of the Basileus. It would be cool if the Slavs are given some sort of light axe armed infantry, with high attack but weak defense, which can hide even in the open similarly to untis such as Hashishin and Welsh Bandits. The Byzantine authors go to great lengths in explaining the various tricks Slavs employed to create ambushes and hide in swamps and woods, so this will be justified. I will keep the Javelinmen to give the Slavs or whoever controls their lands a decent unit for defending bridges and dealing with heavy armor. For the same reason I will keep the Slav Warriors, perhaps called "Voini", with a slight anti-cavalry bonus, to provide a weak spear unit to the Slavs and the steppe factions. If there is a Slav faction in Early or High, maybe they should have some sort of a Royal Heavy Infantry unit. Based on archaeological finds, the Slavs' equipment originated in the blacksmith shops of the Rhineland, which supplied all of Western and Northern Europe. Therefore, they should be similar to Germanic and Scandinavian elite heavy infantry, just not quite as good.
This was a long post, I hope it helps with the initial research.

[Riadach]

Well there was little Celtic connection at this stage but I can't account for them individually. There are three different periods really in Irish warfare, so the three different dates will be important.


Throughout the period, the Irish fought in a compact style, usually consisting of three lines of battle. Whether there was independent movement of units, it's unsure, but they were certainly worried about flanks etc. Individual heroes could also be employed in battle, usually seeking out other individuals.Whataver, speed and lightness of foot, as well as exploitation of geographical features was essential to Irish warfare.

612

Cavalry- At this stage independent cavalry was quite uncommon, chariots would have been the order of the day. These would have involved both missile fire from cavalry, or fighting, and would each have both a driver and a fighter, and would have been considered.

Hand-to-Hand- Most of the fighting would have involved spears at this stage. This consisted of two types, the craisech, a heavy spear used mostly for smashing and breaking bones, and the sleágh, much lighter used for piercing.

Swords were in use, but they were uncommon among the lower ranks. They were similar to the roman gladius at this stage and were used for stabbing and piercing, and not swiping or lopping.

Missile warfare, usually conducted at the beginning of battle, was conducted by stone-throwers, and spear and javelin throwers. Even in the 12th century the Irish were renowned for their accuracy and distance as regards spearthrowing, and it is likely this was true in the earlier period as well. They also had spear thongs so they could retrieve their spears on throwing them.

The other form of missile fire at this stage was the stone-thrower. Once again accuracy here was important, but we also have reference to leads balls being used as shot, something that would make them quite overwhelming. Bows were not in use in warfare at this period.

Armour- Would have been sparse at this juncture. Mostly waxed shirts and leather clothes. Perhaps the king may have had a lúirech, but it certainly wouldn't have been widespread. Shields would have included the round shield and the buckler depending on the wealth of the unit.

812

Cavalry- At this stage, though the chariot may have been in use by certain members of the upper classes, the horse as an individual cavalry unit came to a head with the viking invasions. These were the native horse, so they would have been light, and their riders would ride with a cushion, but could mount by leaping on the horse which was essential since stirrups were not in use. They use spears and swords at this stage, as well as being mounted javelinmen. There are references to a marcshlua ríoga, royal cavalry, who may be different from a regular cavalry who may not have been well armoured, and used mainly for raiding etc.

Hand to Hand. Much the same as before in regards to spearmen, the spears however being properly rivetted, and perhaps progression in steel production. The axe during this period, would have come to head, perhaps in imitation of the Norse axe. This would involve both the handaxe, and the sáfach or pole-arm, which indeed could be a response to the advance in cavalry.

Swords also improved in imitation of the Norse, and became much larger, but also no longer limited to stabbing or piercing but lopping and swiping as well.

Missiles were improved slightly. Spears were rivetted now, but they were also counterweighted for increased accuracy. Stone-throwers were still in use. Bows, also in imitation of the Norse, were also on the rise, though anomylous and far from widespread.

The Irish also began using the tight shield wall, or sceallbholg at this stage, in imitation of the Norse, so a strong charge became part of Irish warfare. Caltrops were also used, as well as field fortifications.

Armour- Body armour increased among noble troops, but still not respected as much as it should. Helmets occur among nobles, and both curved (cromsgiath) and iron-embossed shields (cabhradh) become very common the former among the nobility. The lúirech or scaball, (may involve chainmail but definitely armour, the latter covering the shoulders and coming from the latin scapula, the former from lorica. But once again noble soldiers, or the more professional fighters, would have used such. There is also the muince, perhaps a mail-hood, which was in common use and initially protected only the neck but later covered the complete head.

????? period

Cavalry. Chariots have now disappeared, and the cavalry become more and more an excepted part of the battlefield. Come in three varieties, the king's household, who would have been armoured, carry swords, overarm lances, wear helmets, and may have even carried bows(as they did with great accuracy and distance in later centuries) and medium horses (now being imported from france and scotland), used in battle and for raiding, and could be and frequently did, dismount. Then no doubt, would be their vassals bodyguards, who were perhaps not as armoured or as heavy as that of the provincial kings, but could also dismount and had similar weapons. Then on a much lower level would have been light soldiers, unarmoured for scouting and raiding duties (similar to later horseboys).

Fighting- Much the same, better quality weapons no doubt, and swords and axes were becoming increasingly cheaper and more common.

Missiles= Improved darting and spear qualities. Warbows now being considered an important weapon, may have been reflected in unit makeup. In later centuries, it was the ceithearn, who carried bows, (and later on muskets) so perhaps this was the case at this stage too.

Armour- became much cheaper and more widespread, never quite reaching the lower ranks though. Crested helmets also become popular among leaders.

With the increase in wealth, mercenary soldiers, and not levy troops, as well as something similar to a standing army, become more common. These allow for much greater quality in equipment and weaponry among many soldiers.

[OmarPacha]

I just need a mapper :juggle2: to add some strength to the "Emerald Isles". But I digress, my first and foremost concern is getting working rosters.

As far as a mapper is needed, it might be a great improvement to add the regions with their historical names and borders to the whole map, starting from those defined in the Frankish Kingdom - Carolingian Empire, for example :

Western- Central Europe 17 regions
----------------------
Alemania
Aquitaine
Austrasia
Baiovaria
Bohemia
Burgundy
Carantania or Carinthia
Domnonia
Flanders
Frisia
Gascony
Gothia
Moravia
Neustria
Saxony
Septimania
Thuringia


Iberian peninsula 9 regions
------------------------
Aragon
Cantabri
Cordoba
Galicia
Mauretania of Gades
Murcia
Sevilla
Talavera
Vasconia (or Navarre)



Italian peninsula
and insulae 10 regions
-----------------------
Beneventum
Calabria
Corsica
Exarchate of Ravenna
Malta
Pavia
Rome
Sardinia
Sicily
Spoleto
Tuscia


Scandinavian peninsula 5 regions
----------------------------------
East Gotar
Denmark
Norway
Sviar
West Gotar


Sclavonian Nations 9 regions
----------------------------
Avar Confederacy
Borussia
Bulgaria
Croatia
Mazovia
Poland
Pomerania
Serbia
Slovenia


East Europe 13 regions
------------------------
Crimea
Finland
Khazar
Lazica
Levidia
Lithuania
Livonia
Mordvina
Severia
Sibir
Viatich
Volga Bulgaria
Volhynia


Asia Minor 16 regions
------------------------
Aleppo
Anatolia
Antioch
Armenia
Bucellaria
Crete
Cyprus
Damascus
Hellas
Iconium
Macedonia
Nicaea (Opsician theme)
Palestine
Paphlagonia
Peloponnesus
Thrace


Africa 8 regions
----------------------
Arabia
Barghawata
Barka
Egypt
Ifriqiya
Mauri
Tahert
Tripolitania (Itrabulus)


British Isles 12 regions
(Even if , doubling regions, we need
an enlargement that could lead this
section of the map out of scale.)
-------------------
Dal Riada
Gwynedd
North Umbria
Mercia
Wessex
Cornwall
Caledonia
Strathclyde
Ulaid
Connacht
Muma
Laigin


99 regions (+36 sea regions to rename only, if wanted) on a maximum of 254 allowed are anyway a huge number
and a challenging project for every mapper who would be so unwise
to try the job.
But lands and people were very different from early medieval period
and this mod gameplay should reflect that.

Cheers

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great suggestions OmarPacha. I like it the way it is, but here are just a few minor suggestions. First, instead of Bulgaria, Moesia will be more correct, especially in Early, as before 681 the Bulgars were visiting these lands only occasionaly on their way to raid Thrace. I also think that the Avar Confederacy should probably be split into Pannonia and Transdanubia in a manner similar to the MedMod's map, because I have always disliked the huge Hungary province and the Avars will be in the game only in early. This will bring the total number of provinces up to an even 100.
These are however minor details and the big issue is whether there is a mapper out there willing to try to create the map for the mod. If there is, I promise to not bug him with minor details, as in the above paragraph. :2thumbsup:

[Wladyslaw IV]

I would definetely like to see this, unfortunately there is little I can do to help.

[ULC]

Thanks for the info OmarPacha. If you could show me how you think these should all fit together, then I can start working on a map right away. My main problem with mapping is that I can't get Mithal to work for me:wall:. I can do the main editing, but I can't re-compress it AND keep the palette using UP or PSP without mithal:wall:. I can do the work, but I just need to someone to either tell me how to use Mithal properly or re-compress it for me. But first, I need a rough draft to work from.

I have decided to include the Irish (as Uí Néill, speaking of which, I need non-military information about the Irish too to round it off for accuracy, my knowledge of them is sorely lacking) and Great Moravia. There are easily enough slots for more factions, as with the above inclusions we have 10-15 early, 13-18 High, and 21-25 factions by Late.

Kavhan, would it be correct to setup Moravia (under a different name, possibly) in early? Were they solvent and united at the time? Just wondering, as I need more Slavic factions, as the Germanic/Steppe/Islamic factions have just over run everything, making such factions a little refreshing:beam:, I just need a few more... Oh, and thanks for the unit suggestions for the Steppe Factions. The only reason I didn't make them pure cavalry is because I wanted to make them more flexible and their seems to be no way to make Anit-Infantry cavalry. I have a half formed solution, but spear armies can still eat them alive:wall:.

As to everything else, I would like to here more about the factions and unit/unit rosters. So far I have been using proxy units for simulations, but that won't really cut it for the actually mod. Input here is what I need as this is what I am currently working on.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I will need to do some more research on Moravia, but I really do not think there was anything even resembling a state in those lands in the early 7th century. Perhaps a solution to the problem of Avars, Bulgars and Khazars overrunning the East quickly would be to strengthen the rebels - give them many, and strong, units and leaders with 4-5 stars and some anti-bribe vices. This way it will at least slow down the steppe factions. But I will see if I can find some sort of faction to improve the balance in the Eastern part of the map.
I also completely understand the problem that steppe factions will have without the proper infantry, but perhaps making some units recruitable to anyone in Eastern Europe, such as Slav axe armed infantry may alleviate the problem. In reality, the steppe armies relied on their horse archers when faced with well formed infantry and if the range of those horse archers is increased, along with some AP ability, to reflect the really astounding range and power of the complex bows, then battles will be really fun and concentrated far more on out-meneuvering your oponent, rather than simply matching his units with your units, so that yours grind through his - for example swords vs spears, spears vs cavalry, cavalry vs swords. Furthermore, spearmen should be moderately powerful, not to say weak, and with low morale, during the early period, as I cannot recall a battle in which a spear and shield wall decimated a cavalry army. You can argue it happened at Tours, but this would fall into the high period. It is remarkable that the Eastern Romans' answer to the Turks, Avars, Bulgars and Arabs cavalry heavy armies were the Kataphraktoi, rather than some form of elite spearmen. Armor was scarce in this period, only available only to nobles, pikes non-existant, and heavily armored horsemen charging with lances into men with only a shield and a spear usually had a devastating effect, even if the infantry managed to hold its position and take the charge (which I sure as hell would nerver want to do). Most of the time infantry routed at the mere sight of the iron clad riders descending upon it, and to reflect this in the game, I wonder if it is possible for certain heavy cavalry units, such as the Kataphraktoi and the elite Steppe BG cavalry to get a "cause fear bonus" similar to that of siege engines in the original game.

[ULC]

Since I will be implementing homelands for every unit (I hope this doesn't crash the game...) I have been toying around with some ideas on units and regions. Since each faction has a base of 8 units, with some replaced (3-4) with faction specific units, we end up with a range of about 160-200. I was thinking on creating units in certian regions that are available to only other factions. Say for instance that you are the Bavarians and you take over parts of Poland. You no longer have acess to your Germanic units (at least not your good ones) which are then replaced by "special" slav units. You get a decent selection from this area, but it's nothing compared to your homelands. You then continue your conquests into the steppes. Again, your unit selection changes, but it's even worse this time. As you continue to get further and futher away from your ethnic homelands, your choices become narrower and narrower. What do you think?

Is there such thing as an online translator? Such that I could input "swordsmen", select german, and !POOF!, I have a translation?

[Kavhan Isbul]

I think it sounds great, but it also sounds like a lot of work. Personally, I have always been a strong supporter of the homelands concept, because in my opinion it improves the game significantly. And I have also always been in favor of region-specific units. I love your idea, and I really want to see it implemented, if you do not go crazy creating all these units. :2thumbsup:
I tried hard to find something about factions in Eastern Europe, but in the early period there is nothing other than the Steppe Peoples. However, interestingly enough, there is something called Samo's Empire in the first half of the 7th century, which in territory was similar to the later Great Moravia. Samo was a Frank, who happened to rise to power over the Slavs in Central Europe after a successfull rebellion against the Avars. His Empire was at best a confederation of tribes with him on top, and it was gone quickly after his death, the Avars recovering all of their former lands and subjugating the Slavs again. I am not sure if including this short-lived "Empire" would help the overall balance, other than it would certainly create further problems for the Avars and maybe the Franks. Playtests should be made to see how its inclusion will affect the game, but if it causes the Eastern Romans to crush the Avars and steamroll from the Danube to the Baltic, it might be wiser to leave the Avars bigger and stronger.

[ULC]

Actually, The Avars AND the East Romans need a little bit of powering up. I have the Islamic Arabs start with 4-6 full stacks, and the Bulgars usaually head west (which is good :yes: ). The East Romans are generally to far distracted with defending themselves to bother looking north to the Avars. The Avars themselves fight the Bulgars almost immediatly (the war starting in Volyhnia) and then become steadfast allies of the East Romans (the Avars usually win because Khazar usually stabs The Bulgars in the back). Once each threat is over though, they proceed to mercisely beat each other into a pulp, in which case either the Alemane, Bavarians, Lombards or Franks becomes the superpower.

I am leery of strong rebels, becuase the AI has a habit of treating them as if they were a real threat, and therefore builds enormous armies on borders with rebels, when it should be taking them. Decently strong yes, but not enough to cause the actual factions to slip into stagnation.

As to the cause fear bonus, I thnk we can implement it the same way that fear is implemented for horses fighting camels.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Great, sounds like this mod is well on track and promsies to be a treat.

[Sigma]

Cool, :) I can't wait to play the mod it sounds like its going awsome now :D

[ULC]

I still need information more information on the factions listed above...

I need to know what their level of military was at the starting dates (for starting buildings and units), so as to give the player an accurate potrayal of it would have been to be that faction. I also need to know what each factions specialization was: Did they prefer cavalry, infantry, ambush, good formation, archery or ranged combat? What was the overall quality of their army? What was the armies general make-up? How good was their generalship? What was the status of most of their army (morale reasons)? What were they famous for?

Also, for intercultural relations and homelands, what would be acceptable homelands for most factions? Where were the cultural boundaries? How "accepting, or how "close" were certian factions? Where they multicultural?

Any and all suggestions for Factions will be considered, as I have plenty of room. The same goes with Faction rosters. Also, I need Flags and faction colors for those that we are using. As for units, the only "REAL" stepping stone will be the unit graphics, as to which ones to use and if we need to modify and/or create new ones. Any suggestions (or historically accurate) faction unit rosters will be accepted. I will not, under any circumstances, accept "fantasy units" :thumbsdown: . I am aiming for accuracy as best I can.

Also, I still need a rough map I can work with from someone, using the lands OmarPacha has suggested.

On another note, I have come across a problem and possibly the solution to that problem. Many of the factions during the High era switch religions midstride, thus resulting in a rather "unhistorical" gameplay. I was thinking that instead of shifting the era so that this would be less of a problem, I could instead "tweak" their religion. As such, to play the Moravians in High, for instance, your rulers/generals are Catholic, where as the majority of your population is still "Pagan". Also, I also reduced the conversion strength of most buildings and units, so the process takes longer. So what happens is that you have a duel challenge; Expand and conqueror, while at the same time keep those happy within your borders, as religious unrest is going to a big problem in Dark Age Total War. This is laden throughout the game, so you will always have these problems. So, what do you think?

[Kavhan Isbul]

I will try to get a flag for the Bulgars for early and high. A flag with a lion would be more appropriate for the late period.As already mentioned, the Bulgars, Avars and Khazars had cavalry based armies and relied heavily on horse archers, but did not shy away from charges and melees with their elite heavy horsemen, and based on existing depictions and archaeological finds, one can make an argument that for the time, they had the heaviest armored cavalry, with lamellar protecting both horse and rider. As all nomads, the bulk of the Bulgar army consisted of horsemen with relatively high morale, who were free men following a leader, as they were not tied to a piece of land - warriors was their main occupation and a way of life. In the late period though, a feudal system was in place and a large part of the army was made up of infantry with the low morale of peasant levies, led by an elite of noble heavy cavalrymen. The quality of the generals is going to be hard to determine, for almost every faction, as each faction had its triumphs and defeats. The Eastern Romans of course had an advanced military science, with military academies and exhaustive treatises on war, which did not stop the Bulgars for dealing them plenty of defeats and effectively stopping them from retaking Moesia. For the purpose of the mod, I think the Kanas Ubigy Kubrat should start with fewer command stars than the Basileus, but he should have some defensive virtue, to reflect his ability to defend his lands from Avars and Khazars while alive (and then the ability of his successors to defend their Balkan lands from the powerful Empire), and considering the fact that he was educated in Constantinople, he should probably also get the educated virtue.
You did not ask for titles, but here are some Bulgarian titles, to enhance the atmosphere of the game.
The ruler was Khan, but Kanas Ubigi would be more appropriate and way cooler.
The second in hierarchy after the Kanas Ubigy was the Kavhan, who sometimes led the army on campaigns, which the Kanas Ubigy could not lead himself, but were mostly in charge of the internal affairs of the Khanate, oversseing building projects, tax collection and the administration. This would be the title that appears after the Royal Palace is built, equivalent to Lord Chamberlain i the vanilla game, giving extra command and accumen to iots bearer.
The leader of the cavalry in times of war was the Ichirgu Boil, and this made him something similar to a marshall. I am not quite sure what structure should generate this title, but a Marshall's Palace is an idea, and the title bearer should get some dread and command bonuses.
Each city (yes, the Bulgars built cities) had its own Bori Tarkhan, or governor, and since I cannot figure out how to fit in the role of a chancellor, when this structure is built the player may get to give the title of Bori Tarkhan of Fanagoria/Pliska/Preslav (Fanagoria for early, Pliska for high and Preslav for late, if at all possible to rename the title for each period). Just as the chancellor in the original game, the Bori Tarkhan's title should boost the accumen and command of the general, to whom it is bestowed.
The Bulgars were pagans, but they had Shamans, and the Kolobar, the equivalent of a high priest, held considerable power. If the game envisions for the pagans to be able to build a magnificent structure, the equivalent of a Grand Mosque or Cathedral, called for example a Pagan Monument, then the title associated with such structure should be a Kolobar, and the general awarded this title should get piety and some accumen (and maybe a skull or two for dread).
As for the governors of provinces, instead of Lords, Dons or Emirs of ......, they should be Boils of ......., for example Boil of Pannonia.
This takes us to the question of homelands, and it is a complicated one, given the Bulgar diaspora in the 7th century AD. They started in the lands north of the Caucasus, which means Khazar and whatever other province it is divided into in the map, then controlled Levidia, Crimea and Moldova during the times of Great Bulgaria (roughly the start of the mod), and later on moved on to establish Bulgaria in Wallachia and Moesia, conquering also Macedonia, Carpathia, Pannonia, Serbia and parts of Thrace, and controlling lands as far as Budapest, Peloponessus and Slovenia. Large groups of Bulgars migrated as far as central Italy, and another group established Volga Bulgaria. Fort he purpose of the mod we have to limit the homelands somehow though, and this is what I propose - all of Khazar, Preyaslavl's equivalent, Kiev's equivalent, especially the Southern part along the Black Sea, the Crimea, Moldova, Wallachia, Moesia, Macedonia, Thrace, Carpathia, Pannonia, and Serbia, if by Hellas the north of Greece is meant. Then if I understand your plans for a secondary set of homelands, where lesser units are available to a faction, for the Bulgarians those should be Croatia, Slovenia, Hellas, Georgia, Volhynia, Volga Bulgaria, Moravia, and whatever province is left of Hungary from the original game.

[cegorach]

I think it sounds great, but it also sounds like a lot of work. Personally, I have always been a strong supporter of the homelands concept, because in my opinion it improves the game significantly. And I have also always been in favor of region-specific units. I love your idea, and I really want to see it implemented, if you do not go crazy creating all these units. :2thumbsup:
I tried hard to find something about factions in Eastern Europe, but in the early period there is nothing other than the Steppe Peoples. However, interestingly enough, there is something called Samo's Empire in the first half of the 7th century, which in territory was similar to the later Great Moravia. Samo was a Frank, who happened to rise to power over the Slavs in Central Europe after a successfull rebellion against the Avars. His Empire was at best a confederation of tribes with him on top, and it was gone quickly after his death, the Avars recovering all of their former lands and subjugating the Slavs again. I am not sure if including this short-lived "Empire" would help the overall balance, other than it would certainly create further problems for the Avars and maybe the Franks. Playtests should be made to see how its inclusion will affect the game, but if it causes the Eastern Romans to crush the Avars and steamroll from the Danube to the Baltic, it might be wiser to leave the Avars bigger and stronger.

For what I remember form the secondary school he was a Frankish merchant who somehow led or got involved in a fight against Avars.

Anyway for that period of time our part of Europe was pretty chaotic and almost impossible to find something for sure, though recently for example the birth of Poland was again revised to even earlier times - late 8th or early 9th century, but that is too little for your mod.

There was however - possibly - a Vistulan tribe state around Kraków which was built for sure no later than in the early 9th century which baceme a part of Great Moravia or at least a vassal of this 'empire' - it included Lesser Poland.

A suggestion. Mazovia was nothing more than a depopulated banch of forests at that time and te real Poland would consist from Lesser and Greater Poland and Silesia which is very important to remember as a fightng ground for the next 3 centuries between Poles, HRE and Bohemia.:yes:

[ULC]

Okay, I have been doing some revising, and here is what I have so far...

Timeline
Early Start Date: 632 (Death of Mohammed)
High Start Date: 743 (Death of Charles Martel)
Late Start Date: 912 (Conversion of the Khazars)
End Date: 1078

Map
Expanded map, showing more of the middle east all the way to the Caspian Sea.
Total reworking of provincinal borders, with many renamed.

Factions
Early
Irish
Britons
Picts
Scots
Saxons
Norse
Neustrasians
Austrasians
Burgundians
Bavarians
Alemane
Lombards
Visigoths
Sueves
Basques
Beneventians
Carinthians
Avars
Bulgars
Khazars
East Romans
Sassanids
Arabs

High
Irish
Picts
Scots
Welsh
Wessex
Norse
Saxons
Franks
Asturias
Aquitiane
Lombards
Beneventians
Moravians
Polanes
Avars
Bulgars
Magyars
Khazars
Volga-Bulgars
East Romans
Cordovians
Tahertians
Abbasids
Abkhazians

Late
Irish
Scots
Wessex
Norwegians
Gotalanders
Danish
Franks
Holy Roman Empire
Astrurias (Leon)
Burgundy
Italians
Papacy
Bohemians
Polish
Lithuanians
Magyars
Bulgarians
Cumans
Kievians
Rostovians
Volga-Bulgars
Khazars
East Romans
Abkhazians
Seljuks
Armenians
Abbasids
Tulinids
Tahertians
Aghlabids
Idrissids
Cordovians

Faction Unit Rosters
Factions have "Primary Cultural Rosters" and "Secondary Faction Specific Units". Recruitment ability for the former is limited by "Primary Homelands". Each faction has "Secondary Homelands" which they can recruit the local population, and the strength of siad armies raised are based on the "closeness" of such cultures. I have the Cultural Rosters sorted out, but I still need more information on certian factions for faction specific units (minus the Bulgars, Khazars, Avars, East Romans, Bavarians, Alemane, Franks, Lombards and Irish) As a reminder, a units name will be in its native tongue, so if you have unit suggestions, please translate them if you can.

Cultural Roster for Celtic Factions
Light Spear
Light Spear: Although this appears to be a duplicate unit, it carries a Javelin and has good strength to it, very similiar to Muwahid.
Light Archer
Light Cavalry
Light Sword
Heavy Sword
Heavy Spear
Royal Cavalry (Javelin): This is debatable, I'm actually thinking about making them infantry

Cultural Roster for Germanic Factions
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Axe/Polearm
Light Cavalry
Heavy Axe/Polearm
Heavy Sword
Heavy Spear
Royal Cavalry

Cultural Roster for Slavic Factions
Light Spear
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Axe/Polearm
Heavy Axe/Polarm
Heavy Sword/Archer
Heavy Spear
Royal Infantry

Cultural Roster for Steppe Factions
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Axe/Polearm
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archer
Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Cavalry Archer
Royal Cavalry

Cultural Roster for Roman Factions
Light Spear
Light Archer
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archer
Heavy Axe/Polearm
Heavy Sword
Heavy Cavalry Archer
Royal Cavalry

Cultural Roster for Islamic Factions
Light Spear
Light Sword
Light Archer
Light Cavalry
Light Cavalry Archer
Heavy Archer
Heavy Cavalry Archer
Royal Cavalry

Tech Trees
I will be using an extended Viking Buildings production for most factions, minus the Islamic and Roman Factions. It's not finished, but it should be soon.

As of right now, Only the Bavarians, Khazars, Bulgars, and Avars are complete, with the Lombards, Irish, Visigoths, and Franks following close behind. The East Romans
(and Islamic Factions in general) are partially complete, they just need to have their units named (and specialized for the Islamic factions).

I could use help in the following...

Heroes and Kings for the Heroes.txt
Suggestions on Colors and Faction Flags

Once this is all complete, I will then move on to unit graphics. I will also need someone skilled in maps, as I am thinking of specific maps for certian regions, such that when you seige Constantinople, you actualy seige the city of Constantinople, not just a castle.


Thanks Kavhan Isbul for your Help in the Steppe Factions, Raidiach on the Irish, OmarPacha for the map, and everyone else for support.

[ULC]

Could I have this stickied so I don't lose it? Thanks in advance.

[Torin XII]

Hi!
Here is some early swedish kings that might work for your "Gotalanders" faction in the late era. But I strongly recommend you to change the faction to "Svear" because it was they who were the most famous ethnic group in present Sweden at that time. I also think that the name of the provinces, "East Gotar", "West Gotar" and "Sviar" should be changed to "East Götaland", "West Götaland" and "Sviariki"/"Sviaveldi"/"Svearike".

"Kings of Svear"
Björn Eriksson ~900
Ring ~930
Emund Eriksson ~960
Olof ~970-975
Erik Segersäll ~970-993 (He and his brother Olof ruled together until Olof died)
Olof Skötkonung ~993-1022
Anund Jakob ~1022-1051
Emund Gamle ~1051-1060
Stenkil ~1060-1066
Halsten ~1066-1080

I only know 1 svean hero, Ingvar Vittfarne, that went on an expedition to Särkland (Turkey) in 1040-1041 that failed.

Well, not much but I hope it can be useful, because this seems to be a really nice mod.
//Torin

[FrisianDude]

This mod DOES sound quite cool and I'd love to play it :yes:

but might I suggest adding the frisians? :2thumbsup:
(for some information, I'll link you a site : http://www.i-friesland.com/history.html )

even if you don't decide to add it, I'd still love to try this mod

[Kavhan Isbul]

YourLordandConqueror, what exactly do you need in terms of Heores and Kings - just a list of rulers and a few heroes for each faction, or a complete list of first and last names? I can help with the Bulgarians, just let me know what is needed here.

[ULC]

Basically, I listing of the most prominent and influencial Kings and Heroes. Also, those that brought serious turning points to their faction, good or bad. I want both good and bad kings and heroes, because I want both the feel and the difficulties such factions went through. I don't just want to help the player/computer, I want to give them the experience.

Of course, that could be to much to ask for... :laugh4: .

[naut]

Good initiative!! I actually started one like this a while back, but it got corrupted. It would be very cool indeed. Good Luck!

[Torin XII]

Basically, I listing of the most prominent and influencial Kings and Heroes. Also, those that brought serious turning points to their faction, good or bad. I want both good and bad kings and heroes, because I want both the feel and the difficulties such factions went through. I don't just want to help the player/computer, I want to give them the experience.

Of course, that could be to much to ask for... :laugh4: .

Here is some information about the kings from my last post:
Björn Eriksson - Ruled for a long time, about 50 winters according to the icelandic sagas.
Ring - Was king over the Sveans when the archbishop of Bremen Unni came to Birka.
Emund Eriksson - Allied with king Harald of Denmark and had a friendly attitude aginst christians.
Olof - Died of poisoning. His son tried to claim the throne but was defeated by his uncle Erik Segersäll.
Erik Segersäll - After his victory agianst his nephew he conquered Denmark that had supported his nephew. It was said he was christened in Denmark but he fall back to paganism sonn after.
Olof Skötkonung - The first king that for sure ruled over both Svealand and Götaland. He was also the first king in Sweden that was christened and kept on to it until his death. The christening took presumably room in England in 994 where he was on viking with the danish king Sven Tveskägg. In 1000 the two kings allied again and defeated the king of Norway, Olav Tryggvason, in the famous battle at Svolder. Olof Skötkonung set up the first swedish diocese in Skara 1014. From 1015 and on he was at war with the new king of Norway, Olav Haraldsson, which gave the baltic lands to get rid of their swedish lords. At the end there was so much discontent among the people that Olof Skötkonung had to let his son Anund Jakob become king together with him the last two years of his life.
Anund Jakob - Was given the nickname "Kolbränna", which means "coal burn", and was reffering to his diplomatic methods of burn his rivals homes. He made many alliances with his neighbours and changed often side.
Emund Gamle - Was brother to Anund Jakob and didn't came to rule until he was quite old. He didn't care much about christianity and therefore he was called Emund Slemme (slimy) by the german bishops. He was the last of his dynasty and was succeeded by his son-in-law Stenkil.
Stenkil - The first in the new dynasty that would be named after him and rule until the 1120's. He was very interested in food and drink but also in archery. After his death there was extensive wars for the throne.
Halsten - Became king a short period in the time of the throne wars but was quickly driven away. (He ruled only the year 1066 and not until 1080, my mistake)
//Torin

[ULC]

Thanks for the support and information guys. FrisianDude, I am not a hundred percent sure I will add them. If you could find me some information for units, and Flags and Colors for them then its a definite possibility. The only thing I am leary of is yet another "European" faction.

Torin XII, thank you immensely for the famous Kings. Thats one worry of my chest.

Oh, thats neat Rythmic, especially considering I received my inspiration from BDTW :beam: .

[axel]

http://www.medievalsources.co.uk/portal_scots.htm
http://www.coloradocollege.edu/Dept/HY/Ashley/HY104/images/MapKeys/medievalmaps.htm
http://www.ancientbattlecrafts.com/weapons.htm
here somme links if i find more ill post them for ya :2thumbsup:

[Kavhan Isbul]

OK, let me see if I can help with a list of heroes for the Bulgars/Bulgarians. Let's start with my nickname:
Kavhan Isbul: he was a Kavhan during the time of a few consecutive Kanas Ubigis, from Omurtag to Pressian and perhaps even Boris. The Kavhan was in charge of the inner affairs of the Bulgar state, such as large scale construction (roads, bridges, fortifications), but also led the army in cases when the Kanas Ubigi could not lead it himself, such as in campaigns of secondary importance. Considering the military success of Bulgaria during this time and the unprecedented construction, he should probably have both strs and quills and the "Builder" virtue. Year - around 815
Kliment Ohridski: the first Bulgarian archbishop, a student of Cyril and Methodius (who should probably be Eastern Roman heroes) , perhaps the person who created the Slavic alphabet in its current state (the original was quite different). Should appear in Macedonia around 1850, perhaps as a 3 star Orthodox Priest. Which is somewhat impossible, because at this point in the mod the Bulgars will be still pagan. In this case he will have to be a high piety general. Tough to incorporate him into the game, but he deserves it. Same applies for Naum Preslavski, who should appear in Bulgaria at about the same date.
Mostic: he was the Ichirgu Boil of Simeon I and Peter I, and perhaps one of the most talented military leaders of his time. While credit those days went to the rulers, Mostic must have been instrumental in the great defeats against the Eastern Romans during Simeon's time, such as the battle at Aheloi where 50,000-strong Eastern Roman army was annihilated (as opposed to simply defeated). While he was alive, Bulgaria was a strong Empire, and soon after his death military disaster followed. He should be the best commander the Bulagrians get, with some virtue such as skilled attacker, and he should get some dread. Year: around 925.
Krakra of Pernik: in 1004 Basilius II won a battle against the Bulgarians at the Vardar, near Skopje. After this victory he headed back, capturing fortress after fortress on his way, until he reached Pernik, south of Sredets (Sofia). Krakra, a high ranking bolyarin, with a fiefdom copmrising 36 fortified cities, and known for his military skills, was there with a tiny force. Basilius tried to bribe him, but Krakra refised to surrender, even though his chances of success were slim. Then somehow he managed to repulse one Roman attack after another, finally causing Basilius to withdraw after suffering heavy losses. Krakra surrendered only after the last Bulgarian Tsar was dead, and Basilius, impressed with his loyalty and bravery, bestowed him with the title of patrician. Around 1000 AD, he should be a skilled siege defender with a few stars.
I think this is a decent list, but if you want to expand it, here are some more:
Tsok Dulo: Ichirgu Boil during Krum's time, member of the royal family. Another strong military leader.
Todor: Simeon's Kavhan, enough said.
Dometian: Kavhan during the rule of Tsar Samuil.
Pressian and Alexis Hunol: emissaries around 1870.

As for the rulers, this is hard to implement in the game, as it generates names randomly. However, here are the most notable ones:
Kanas Ubigi Kubrat (632-668): the starting Bulgar ruler (the start of his rule neatly coincides with the start of the game) created what became known as Great Bulgaria in the steppes north of the Black Sea. He was educated in Constantinople, and a loyal Eastern Roman ally. At the end of his rule, he had pushed the Avars out of Moldova and perhaps even Vallachia, because there are no records of Avar attacks on Eastern Roman territories during his reign. It is suspected that Kubrat might have been Christian.

Kanas Ubigi Asparuh (668-695): the eldest son of Kubrat was Baian, but Asparuh was the one, who led part of the Bulgars to the Danube, where they established a country, which has survived to the present. He defeated a large Eastern Roman army at the Danube and conquered Moesia, which of course later became known as Bulgaria.

Kanas Ubigi Tervel (695-715): the son of Asparuh. Early in his rule, he helped Justinian II to regain the Eastern Roman throne, in return for lands, gifts and the title of Kesar (Caesar). Three years later Justinian II felt strong enough to violate the treaty, but Tervel defeated the Roman army at Ankhialo. Finally, in 717-718 Tervel aided the Eastern Romans when the Arabs sieged Constantinople, as his army was instrumental in defeating the Arabs. Latest research suggests this migth have been Tervel's son Kormesiy, but it is possible that it was Tervel, who saved Europe back then, and for the purpose of the mod he should take credit in some way.

Kanas Ubigi Krum (796 or 803 - 814): perhaps the greatest ruler Bulgaria had. Early in his reign he took advantage of Charlemagne's successfull campaigns against the Avars, to hit and destroy the latter once and for all, expanding the borders of Bulgaria to include the Carpathian mountains, Transylvania and EEastern Pannonia. A few years later Nikephoros I defeated him and managed to burn down Pliska, thinking he had been able to destroy the Bulgarian state. However, even though most of his army was gone, Krum managed to assemble an army, which included peasants, women and mercenaries, and ambushed Nikephoros at the Varbica pass and killed him, along with most of his troops. After this Krum proceded to conquer many fortresses, from Serdika (Sofia) to towns on the Black sea and repeatedly raided Thrace. Leo V approached him to negotiate a peace treaty, but tried to ambush him with archers and other soldiers. Krum managed to fight his way out, and started preparing a grand scale expedition aimed at Constantinople, including a great number of siege machines and even Greek fire (prevously captured from the Romans). He died before the campaign was launched though. Kanas Ubigi Krum is also remembered for issuing the first set of laws. These laws included harsh punishments for drinking, stealing and other undesired behaviour. Krum's reputation of ruthlessness was enhanced by the devastation he caused in Thrace and he is also rumored to have made himself a drinking cup from the skull of the unfortunate Nikephoros.

Kanas Ubigi Omurtag (815-831) - Omurtag did not continue Krum's aggressive policy, and negotiated peace treaties with most of his neighbors. He only led campaigns against the Khazars and Magyars, as there are columns which state that he expanded the Eastern border to the Dnepr river. He offered a peace treaty to the Franks, which was not accepted, so he was forced to send a fleet up the Danube, which suceeded to drive the Franks out of Eastern Pannonia and to supress the Slav rebellion the Franks supported there. Omurtag is remembered as a magnificent builder, as he not only rebuilt Pliska, but also embarked on an ambitious building program, improving the infrastructure and fortifications within the Empire.

Kanas Ubigi/Knyaz Boris/Michail (852-889) - Boris converted the Bulgarians to Christianity, and he welcomed and supported the surviving students of Cyril and Methodius, fleeing from Great Moravia, essentially helping the creation of the Cyrillic alphabet. Not a great military leader, but a decent diplomat, as all his defeats did not cost him any territorial losses.

Tsar Simeon I the Great (893-927) - during his time the Bulgarian Empire had its greatest expansion. Educated in Constantinople, Simeon's dream was to rule over the Eastern Roman Empire, and while he never acheaved his goal to conquer Constantinople, he was recognized as an equal to the Basileus by the Constantinople Patriarch. Simeon moved the Capital from Pliska to Preslav, and made every attempt to build Preslav in a way to rival Constantinople. This was of course impossible, but Preslav certainly was one of the greatest cities in Europe at this time. Apart from defeating the Eastern Romans multiple times, Simeon defeated the Magyars in an alliance with the Pechenegs (but lost Pannonia to them), reenforced Bulgarian rule over the Western part of the Balkans and was not successfull only against the Croatian Kingdom. The first Tsar ever.

Tsar Peter I (927-969) - Peter brought peace to the country after his father's wars, and was remembered as the "Good Tsar Peter", but he was a poor leader and at the end, suffered heavy defeats from the Kiev Rus, the Magyars and the Eastern Romans.

Tsar Samuil (997-1014): samuil was not born into the royal family, but ascended to the throne after the last successor to the throne, Roman, died. He managed to strengthen the remains of Bulgaria. Taking advantage of a civil war within the Roman Empire, his armies conquered fortresses as far south as the Epirus. He managed to impose his will over the Serb kingdom of Duklja, and allied with the Hungarians. Finally, however, the Bulgarian army was defeated in the battle of Kliuch in 1014, after wich Basilius II had 15,000 captured Bulagrian soldiers blinded, before they were sent back. Legend has it that the sight of these blinded men caused Samuil to die of a heart attack.

[Sigma]

So how is the mod coming along now? :)

[ULC]

To put it lightly....okay. I have lots of info, but putting it together is becoming problematic. I have an excellent map, but the darn scanner is broken, and I'm also waiting on Omarpacha for the LukMap. Colors and Flags are hard to do, considering the period, so I am currently attempting to either utilize the ones from BI (which I am NOT happy with BTW), or create new ones based on upon certian dukes/emirs/sultans/emperors/kings heraldry. Another problem is units, and a rather unexpected one at that. The problem lies mainly with the Germanic and Celtic factions; Half used vulgar latin, a quarter used their own brand, and yet another used a synthesis. What results is nearly unique faction rosters for a handful of factions, all because of a language barrier, that are in essence THE SAME THING. My solution is to temporarily use generic naming for most factions units (you can thank Kavhan Isbul for saving the Steppe factions from such a fate :yes: ) and have only the unique units named in the faction tongue to save space and aspirin.

But not all is bad! For starters we have -

5 new slots for ranged weapons! If you have suggestions for what to use these for, do tell...

Cavalry are now well represented (just not well named....yet). Certain units, such as Kataphraktoi and Tarkhans now cause fear to infantry. Also, all non-spear infantry suffer a debilitating penalty against cavalry. I was able to get a Kataphraktoi unit (40 men) to vaporize a unit of Arimmani (60 man archer unit, and a good one two!) in 10 seconds, with a rout on contact.

Expect spearmen to put up a substantial fight now. I have increased their stats considerably, and have also increased their cavalry attack/defense bonus by a significant amount. I will be posting stats VERY soon, so you can dissect at your will.

Still holding out for this to be stickied...

[OmarPacha]

Hi,
I'm afraid that the matter of the map here is getting a little confused
as I was going for a basic remake of the classical MTW Europe map with new region borders and their own, historical, names.
Then - I've read, some posts ago, of Caspian sea and the area surrounding


Map
Expanded map, showing more of the middle east all the way to the Caspian Sea.
Total reworking of provincinal borders, with many renamed.


and, on this new purpose, I begun to build the part of the map to be added and a square to include the british isles out of scale.
Therefore I know well I'm in charge to make the final .BMP and the compressed .TGAs,
but I never said to be able to do all the work to get the map. Actually we still need
someone to apply the LMM4 to schemes.

Even this way, it's a huge job so I can't post some image of new map before end of october.

Greetings

[ULC]

Yes, I do believe I metioned that. I have a map image already to go, the problem is getting on the computer. As stated above, the scanner is broke, and I am in the process of getting a new one. I never meant to saddle that much work on you Omarpacha, I was from the start intending to do the whole thing, but I just needed a little guidance. The map that I asked for was supposed to be only a non-working rough draft, so I could then create a final copy using LMM4. Soryy for the extreme confusion.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I am glad to see the mod nearing completion. Here is a proposed flag for the Bulgars, when Pagan in Early and High - this is the sacred symbol of Tangra, and I am attaching two files - one with the full symbol, and one with a simplified version. Alternatively, a flag can only use the inner symbol, which looks like IYI.
For the Late Bulgarians, a flag incorporating an Orthodox icon, say for example obe of St. George, would be most accurate.

https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8734/rozetkainvertrs0.th.jpg (https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rozetkainvertrs0.jpg)

https://img146.imageshack.us/img146/816/logoin9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[OmarPacha]

Factions that would need a representative image to be drawn on shield or flag are so many indeed; I am worried for the 'sclavonian' factions above all, such as Avars or Polanes that just can't have same shield and flag of Polish but also all the 'near-east' factions - I read of Moravians and Carinthians, for instance, and really don't know where to search to gain any information on these people.
We could start collecting ideas by now, as when unavailable a historical-based 'coat of arms' a fantasy image must be agreed.

Cheers
~:smoking:

[Kavhan Isbul]

OmarPacha, how difficult would it be to replace a faction shield? I think once the mod is released, if there is a wrong (ahistorical) shield or unit name, there will be someone, who will let us know and point out a more historically correct coat of arms. If it is a minor correction, then I would not worry about it. If it takes a lot of time and effort, we will need to sort this out now.

[OmarPacha]

Yes most of faction shields and flags can be obtained by existing stock or from other mods; but I am worried for that factions we know nothing about and flags and shields are to be made brand new.
A historical flag or their most important city banner or anything should identify that peculiar tribe or people will help us to avoid the use of unsuitable shields just because we've got them.

:tumbleweed:

[axel]

Here i found a site with flags and banners just click on the banner or flag link

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/guides/banners.html
http://www.medievalsources.co.uk/portal_scots.htm#maps
http://randomdude.com/blog/threads/2307-The-Dark-Ages-Maps
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://theminiaturespage.com/news/pics/2006/mar/320819b.jpg&imgrefurl=http://theminiaturespage.com/news/320819/&h=386&w=400&sz=42&hl=nl&start=4&um=1&tbnid=BUXzZHGfXNrYZM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbanners%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bdark%2Bages%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN
i hope you cane do somme thing with it

[ULC]

Thanks to Axel, I found this

https://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z41/YourLordandConqueror_2007/The20Dark20Ages.jpg

It lacks the more eastern area, but the image itslef isn't important. What is is that its decorated with what appears to be a treasure trove of faction flags! I need a little help in IDing them, but looks like western europe may be set!

[axel]

:2thumbsup: i love this mod allreddy :laugh4:

[ULC]

I know I've been really short changing you guys, but here a sneak peak of what I'm working on.

https://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z41/YourLordandConqueror_2007/Kontartori.jpg
ByzantineSpear

It's not finished, but what do you think? I'll have more soon, along with the bulgars in action, plus (yes finally!) units stats. Be aware that the units will have be listed by their index name, not thier actual name, which I am still working on. Cheers.

[axel]

looks great mate :2thumbsup:

here s somme more links:
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://sillysoft.net/plugins/images/The%2520Dark%2520Ages.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sillysoft.net/lux/maps/The%2520Dark%2520Ages&h=1269&w=1541&sz=421&hl=nl&start=1&um=1&tbnid=0iXEfbgblgg7SM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaps%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bdark%2Bages%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://sillysoft.net/plugins/images/The%2520Dark%2520Ages%2520-%2520Southeast.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sillysoft.net/lux/maps/The%2520Dark%2520Ages%2520-%2520Southeast&h=597&w=646&sz=277&hl=nl&start=2&um=1&tbnid=w6M2KG5gnWIFiM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaps%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bdark%2Bages%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/166/381482708_2340495adf.jpg&imgrefurl=http://randomdude.com/blog/threads/2307-The-Dark-Ages-Maps&h=288&w=500&sz=115&hl=nl&start=5&um=1&tbnid=fQG7dyP9FHTy_M:&tbnh=75&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaps%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bdark%2Bages%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

http://www.rpgobjects.com/images/LODA_map_800.jpg
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sidetracks.co.uk/DA_MapBlobby.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sidetracks.co.uk/Maps.html&h=3510&w=2550&sz=1231&hl=nl&start=9&um=1&tbnid=lx3ruwVnPdtHGM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaps%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bdark%2Bages%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/germanic_roman_486_1923.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newarkirregulars.org.uk/links/mhresearch.html&h=1730&w=2298&sz=740&hl=nl&start=92&um=1&tbnid=yJlEPOCWNxJYIM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaps%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bdark%2Bages%26start%3D80%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dn l%26sa%3DN

[axel]

here you go
http://www.euratlas.com/big/1200big.jpg

[axel]

https://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8329/screeniefactionsymbolskn0.jpg

[Kavhan Isbul]

I know I've been really short changing you guys, but here a sneak peak of what I'm working on.

It's not finished, but what do you think? I'll have more soon, along with the bulgars in action, plus (yes finally!) units stats. Be aware that the units will have be listed by their index name, not thier actual name, which I am still working on. Cheers.

Looks good. Thanks for all the work you are putting into this. Personally, when I see mods with great attention given to the smallest details, such as unit info pictures, it tends to greatly enhance my overall enjoyment of the mod. Great job, can't wait to see more :2thumbsup:

P.S. Isn't this ever going to get stickied?

[Sigma]

Looks good. Thanks for all the work you are putting into this. Personally, when I see mods with great attention given to the smallest details, such as unit info pictures, it tends to greatly enhance my overall enjoyment of the mod. Great job, can't wait to see more :2thumbsup:

P.S. Isn't this ever going to get stickied?

I guess the moderators are waiting for abeta release or something. It would be a bit of a waste to sticky a dead end topic :P

[axel]

more links:
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.newworldcelts.org/hallstatt%2520chief.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newworldcelts.org/celtichistory.html&h=379&w=312&sz=32&hl=nl&start=41&um=1&tbnid=JC6NY8D2EyN5mM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhistorical%2Bwarriors%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.newworldcelts.org/hallstatt%2520chief.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.newworldcelts.org/celtichistory.html&h=379&w=312&sz=32&hl=nl&start=41&um=1&tbnid=JC6NY8D2EyN5mM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhistorical%2Bwarriors%26start%3D40%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ghkuhlmann.de/kureng/Image5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ghkuhlmann.de/kureng/glossary.html&h=1261&w=577&sz=71&hl=nl&start=134&um=1&tbnid=CB95Vkd3jQe4OM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=69&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhistorical%2Bwarriors%26start%3D120%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3D N

here s a site:
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.belygorod.ru/img2/RusskieKartinki/Used/460Vasnetsov_v%2520bogatyri.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.allempires.com/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp%3FTID%3D6615&h=1400&w=2114&sz=705&hl=nl&start=345&um=1&tbnid=zz5SP63z9g_F_M:&tbnh=99&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhistorical%2Bwarriors%26start%3D340%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3D N

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.marielle.fam-smit.ws/LARP/warlord.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.marielle.fam-smit.ws/LARP.htm&h=384&w=306&sz=25&hl=nl&start=564&um=1&tbnid=zom9UtE6NJGVcM:&tbnh=123&tbnw=98&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhistorical%2Bwarriors%26start%3D560%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3D N

http://steppes.proboards23.com/index.cgi?board=board18&action=display&thread=1167258099&page=4

thats it for now
i cant find any flags or symbols and banners from that time period????

[axel]

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.the-romans.co.uk/g8/02.legionaries_small.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.the-romans.co.uk/legion.htm&h=281&w=320&sz=13&hl=nl&start=420&um=1&tbnid=Vi8n59hdczfZoM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dancient%2Barmy%2Bs%26start%3D400%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

[axel]

Here s a link of soldier images: http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/aryamehr11/Ancient%2520Iranian%2520Soldiers/th_PersianSpearman-AchaemenianPeriod.jpg&imgrefurl=http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/aryamehr11/Ancient%2520Iranian%2520Soldiers/&h=160&w=120&sz=5&hl=nl&start=259&um=1&tbnid=8jTo8Ywe9AFh2M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=74&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dancient%2Bpersian%26start%3D240%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN

[axel]

Hi mate any progress??

[ULC]

I'm at stand still. I have most of the programming done, now I'm just waiting on thr graphics files such as the Campiagn Map, Flags and Shields, and Unit Skins. The I get to pack it all up nice and neat and ship it out as Dark Ages Total War ver 1.0.

[axel]

gg mate :2thumbsup:
i got a fresh MTW and VI installed on my PC waithing for this :yes: :yes:

[RamGrath]

this mod looks really good :) cant wait for it to be out. btw do you still need any sort of information or are you set?

[ULC]

The main thing I am lacking in is kings and heroes. I HAD a Cambridge medieval history collection which I was using, but it just vanished. I had used that for several units and heroes, but now my main resource is gone. As for units, it all comes down to naming the things so they aren't generic. Titles would be good, as also what Gods the Pagan factions followed. Beyond that, any information period could improve the mod, as I wanted a good amount of community input so the game could be more enjoyable to those who played it. As to those who are waiting, I am trying to construct a rather bland beta for testing that will be using the originall map until Omarpacha and Belisario can deliver the Campmap and Faction Flags, respectively.

[Sigma]

Will Beowulf be a hero for the Germanics? :P

but really awsome work you have put into this so far, I'm glad to hear its almost ready...

[axel]

here somme links to kings:
http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/picts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_the_Britons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_kings
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page14.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_monarchs
http://www.britannia.com/history/monarchs/york.html
http://omacl.org/Heimskringla/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrasia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Burgundy
http://www.friesian.com/perifran.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians
http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/regents/iberian/suevi.htm
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianSuevi.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/GERMANY,%20Kings.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids Avars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html

well i hope i got help you with this every link got a list of king names let me know if this helps then ill will look for more mate:2thumbsup:

[Mithradates VI]

Also, I still need a rough map I can work with from someone, using the lands OmarPacha has suggested.



Take a look here.

http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm

Might have some good stuff for you:-D


Looking forward to this. I'd suggest the homelands for the East Romans be the provinces controlled by Justinian I prior to his reconquests. It would give them the largest bases for homeland units....but it would be historically accurate.

[Frunk]

Looking like a fantastic mod! I hope the Vikings get a good mention. I'd like to help, but I really can't be of much use at all I don't think. I've subscribed to the thread, so I'll help if need be.

[OmarPacha]

I finished my work on Europe map, hope this one will be the Dark Age mod official map, here are some images:

https://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l118/OmarPacha/europe_dark_age_800x600.jpg

https://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l118/OmarPacha/Caspian_Sea.jpg

https://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l118/OmarPacha/Far_North_West.jpg

https://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l118/OmarPacha/Far_South_East.jpg

The map has the highest resolution (4096x3072) and reports some differences from the classical MTW map, first of all the Caspian area, as agreed in previous posts.
The Ireland and Great Britain islands are surrounded by a square because of their widely -out of scale- size; this is requested by the number of regions we planned to draw in the area that wouldn't find enough space after the whole map reduction made to comprehend eastern enlarged borders.

That's only a first look to verify if this are going to be the map; more, if anyone should like to add ideas, now is the time - before further work is done.

Cheers

[Belisario]

Nice map OmarPacha! Do you have also the lbm map with dark ages provinces? I have made some research about this subject and my conclusion is that I am able to find historical maps of the administrative division of the Carolingian empire but other areas are a bit more complicated.

I promised YLC help with the faction flags and shields but I don't know what symbols/flags used most of the factions. Help in this matter would be appreciated.

[axel]

nice real nice
wot do you need to make maps like that, wot program??
nice map mate real nice

[ULC]

WOW! Thats all I can say OmarPacha, Just WOW! PERFECT! You make it look as if it were the original map. Just awe inspiring, seriously. That is good...

(Whipes spit from mouth...)

Err..yes, that will do for me. Belisario as to Faction Flags, I think I'll send you some ideas soon, but in an above post I made their is a map just covered in them. I am currently rounding up some unit graphics. Things look well for the graphical side, but I'm more concerned with unit balance. Of course, I could just release it and we all could balance it out then, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I've loaded the Unit/Structure guide up, will get a link VERY soon.

YLC, :medievalcheers: :barrel:

[Kavhan Isbul]

That is one absolutely stunning map, the way the map should have been done for the vanilla game actually. OmarPacha, :applause: :bow:

Now I cannot wait to see how it is divided into different regions.

[ULC]

Oops! One thing, could you add that one island off the coast of Spain (Med, wish I could remember the name...)?

[Sigma]

This mod seems like it is turning out well, can't wait for the release :D

[Kavhan Isbul]

Oops! One thing, could you add that one island off the coast of Spain (Med, wish I could remember the name...)?

Mallorca?

[dimitrios the samian]

WOW !!!!!!!!!!!! Omar the map so far is brilliant :applause: ..
YourLordandConqueror .. Im also looking forward to your mod :2thumbsup: keep up the great work ,, I was not

** OmarPacha .. Would you consider writing a simplified guide over at the Repository or Alchemist Lab on Map making ? I would like to learn :idea2: .. As Im sure many others would to once they see more of this map .

cheers to all DTS

[OmarPacha]

Oops! One thing, could you add that one island off the coast of Spain (Med, wish I could remember the name...)?

Mallorca will be a fine addiction to map but I'd wait to count the final amount of regions just because it is limited and Illes Balears mean at least 1 land region + 1 sea region + a lot of graphical work to mod sea area and its borders.
But my main concern is about the historical relief of the region. If we'll be forced to choose last slots available in the 'startpos' file, are We so sure that Balearics were more important than, for example, Samarkand ? I was wondering about cutting off Rhodes but then I saw that the isle had been theater of several muslim attacks up to occupation in 672 by Muawiyah I, and I thought this could be a good reason to place an enemy region in the already huge Byzantine Empire.
Anyway, the purpose of this thread is to agree what must become our mod and, if wanted, I'll plan to draw Mallorca (even if Ibiza give better inspiration).

Cheers

[axel]

Hi
i would like to learn how to make a campain map to is there a guide and wot program cane you use to make such?? :2thumbsup:

[Hound of Ulster]

Keep it up, this looks really promising.

era breakdown suggestions

(ex-Early) 632 start

(ex-High) 793 start

(ex-late) rise of the Capetian Dynasty in France about 930

(ex-VI) scrap

[ULC]

Well, I've decided on the start dates according to advances in Production and Technology, and the availability of weaponry. As such, 632 will be the start date, High begins in 800, Late starts in 919, and the game ends in 1078. Also, since religion has been replaced by culture (not set in stone of course), a factions religion is determined by what kind of advantages it wants (to be sorted out by suggestions and research).

[Hound of Ulster]

I'd end the game in 1066, which is often cited as the 'ending' of the 'dark ages' in most histories.

[Frunk]

I'd end the game in 1066, which is often cited as the 'ending' of the 'dark ages' in most histories.

That would actually more acurately describe the end of the 'Viking Age', I'd personally stick with 1078.

[ULC]

Anyone out their with experience doing unit textures? I can't seem to get them to work.

[Sigma]

Ask, Macsen Rufus, he might be able to help you :)

also you might want t ogo around and ask maybe the Fall of Rome mod, for some of there units since they cover some of the dark ages in their mod, they can be useful....

also after you get some of the unit textures done, could you show us some of the results of the mod? (screenshots :P)

[dimitrios the samian]

Don't give up YLC ...... :smash: ... I agree with Sigma F.O.R mod has skins/units you can use and perhaps somme of the other mods have similiar .. So at least you can field armies and begin playtesting ! cheers ,, DTS

[axel]

:2thumbsup: yes macsen cane help you with it i think he will

[Belisario]

Hi YLC, I send you an e-mail with my first contribution to your mod, the complete set of flags and shields for the Asturian faction. I have used these colours: 0 102 255 / 247 213 23. I am working in Infopics images which I have taken from Osprey books and other sources, but I need improve my method because I want emulate the colour of the original Infopics. Meanwhile I have made tests with black/white infopics -like Pike and Musket mod-, and even tested coloured infopics. I also like XLMod's infopics style, i.e. a new soldier image pasted over an original MTW background, but this is rather difficult.

[Hound of Ulster]

why not use the XL mod as a base (most of us play it anyway). You'll find in your research that not much changed militarly (except for the introduction of the stirrup) between the fall of Rome and the Norman conquest of England. You can also use Ancient as a base as well, especially for the Sassinsid units.

[axel]

look wot i found : http://statika.imperiaonline.org/imperia/game/novini.php?lang=nl&ref=local go to gallery you see nice pics maybe to use ????

[ULC]

Sorry Guys for being away so long with out telling! My computer finally gave up the ghost, and I've been in a small hell of my own; the hard drive I had, although in working condition, has to be formatted for my new computer to understand it, although the reason why is alluding me :inquisitive: . Thus, all my work thus far is locked into a hard drive that I can't access for whatever reason. If you would give but a little time to find an old enough computer, I can put up screenshots and release a demo version (with four factions). Thanks for not giving up on me :beam: .

[Kavhan Isbul]

I am sure it is going to be worth the wait. Good luck with recovering all your work from the old hard drive, there's got to be a way to do it.

[Hound of Ulster]

don't give up.:jumping:

[Calypze]

I really like this idea!

Some things I would like to add:

The Danes weren't a state until , they were just a tribe (either a tribe or a coalition of tribes, I don't know), and I don't think they covered exactly what is modern day Denmark. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danes#Origins

It would perhaps also be a good idea to enlarge the map, so that all of the Sassanid Empire is on the map, and make the whole Arabian penninsula on it. Another good idea would be to split up Arabia into several provinces. I think that after the Abbasids, no Islamic dynasty was ever able to rule all of Arabia.

[ULC]

Whoa, whoa, we have already settled on the map. The Sassanid Empire is only in early, and I don't want to make Omarpacha do another one (even though he is really good at it :2thumbsup: ). He has worked hard to give a wonderful map, and I wouldn't ask for anything else. As for the Danes, I lumped them together with their Norwegian and Swedish brethren to represent the Vikings. Although I would prefer to make several norse factions, it's just not feasible.

[ULC]

Deleted-Double post

[Hound of Ulster]

You could spilt the norse factions into the Danes and Swedes from the 'High' era on. just use differant colors for the units and banners.

[ULC]

But one or the other would lack the "Viking" bonuses, and I really don't see how to justify one getting those bonuses of the other.

[Hound of Ulster]

Just one little request...

could you make Medieval XL a requirement for installing your Dark Ages mod, as most of us play XL anyway.

[ULC]

I would really have to see, and I would never make it a requirement. A bit of a bonus, yes, but never a requirement. It would also be hard to do, as there are several animations I plan on replacing that XL uses.

[Hound of Ulster]

I guess I'll have to re-install Med1.

[ULC]

Err, DATW will be using VI, just so you know. To the rest of you, I have the Steppe factions working, as such the Demo release will now have the following factions for beta testing - The Franks, The Bulgars, The East Romans, The Umayyads, The Carinthians, and The Irish, so as to test each culture using the vanilla map. Sorry, it won't be out before Xmas, but shouldn't be out long after.

[dimitrios the samian]

Great news YLC ... :2thumbsup:

[axel]

yes great news :yes:

[Hound of Ulster]

When are you shooting to release the demo?

[axel]

hi are there any screens maybe ?

[Hound of Ulster]

yeah, what have you got YLC?

[Hound of Ulster]

bump

Hello YLC, anybody home?

[OmarPacha]

Last week I sent to YLC some material related to a new map to be used for Dark Age mod, the same linked above. I can't absolutely say if he's going to use it; it may depend on the work he has done up to now. Anyway, just to imagine what we are talking about (more screens could follow if requested):

https://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l118/OmarPacha/SS1_800x600.jpg

Cheers

[axel]

wooow looks great :2thumbsup:

[Hound of Ulster]

I hope YLC hasn't given up on this one. The Dark ages are the one major period not covered by TW or any TW mods.

[ULC]

I most certainly have not. I;ve just been very busy with College, and have had little time to devote to DATW. But now I that things have settled, I will be back on the ball. I hope to have screenshost tomorrow, so will will all be happy :2thumbsup:

[Hound of Ulster]

excellent, excellent.......

[Hound of Ulster]

bump

hello YLC, any updates?

[ULC]

Sorry, college has had me busy for the last 2 weeks. I'm working on getting the images squared away, so it may be a while before I can get any screenshots up. I show you what the campiagn make looks like for each era though, if that will do.

[Hound of Ulster]

Education is more important than mere video games:book: , but at least keep us abreast of developments. I want see this mod succeed. I can help with some historical research if you want.

[ULC]

I'll try. I have this weekend free, so I'll defintely have something to show. As for research, any help is good help. I have a curent problem scrounging up enough historical units, which can make some factions rather limited.

[Hound of Ulster]

your safest bet with the Norse is to simply port over units from MTWVI or XL. The Byazantines went through a major military reform just before thier huge war with Persia in 602. However, you can simply port over the Kataphraktoi and Klibnariiphoi from XL, while the Varnargains don't come in until the mid 800s.

I'll post more once I give my books about the Sassinsids and Byzantium a once-over.

[axel]

Hi here s wot i found on dark ages units: http://www.digitization.org/wiki/index.php?title=AOK:SOLDIER
here s a link it seems a bit childisch but if you click on the units you will see wot kind of units you got and somme pics: http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.juniorgeneral.org/donated/cornet/darkageinf1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.juniorgeneral.org/Medieval.htm&h=300&w=500&sz=24&hl=nl&start=6&um=1&tbnid=WQQQX9cg8L5vxM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsoldier%2Bunits%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bdark%2Bages%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN
but i think you will get somme good ideas from this like clothing and weapons and shields :2thumbsup:

[Hound of Ulster]

Some Sassinsid units...

Savaran (use Kataphractoi as base) elite heavy cav. high stats

Paighan (use Almohad Urban Militia) basic infantry, useless in anything other than sieges. you can split the Paghian into sword and spear really low stats

Medians heavy infantry (use Spearman) rank and file infantry low stats

Median Javelinmen AND Median slingers (I suggest asking Macsen Rufus for some of his Ancient TW missile units for these guys) low stats

Dailamite infantry (use Saracen Infantry, both boost stats bigtime) as Median infantry, but even more elite. Make them cheap, but only recruitable in Caspain area.

Archers (use base Archers, but give them a pavise type shield) they carried light wicker shields

Armenian Savaran (as Savaran, but also recruitable as mercs and only in Armenia) high stats, but should show up in rebel armies

Horse Archers (use Mongol Horse Archers)

Zhayedan (use Klibnariphoi from MTW-XL, but give massive stat boost) bodyguard unit for princes and Shahs. very high stats

Kurdish Javelinmen (as Median Javelinmen but only recruitable in Mesopatamia) decent stats

King at start (632)should be Yazdegird III, but make base loyalty of all proviences really low (prone to revolt) as he was the last of a rocade of brief reigns before the Arabs. Also, see if thier is a way you can make the Savaran easily bribable, as many went over to the Arabs after Al-Qadiyasa.

Byzantines to follow.

[dimitrios the samian]

Don't give up YLC .... Im 100% behind you like Hound , Axel & Omar and others .
Just keep up steady progress when you can ..
After all one or two steps a day can add up to 1000's of klm's at the finish line !! :yes:
cheers guys
DTS

[ULC]

I have come to a crossroads on the Bavarian Flag. Here is what I have collected so far.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Muenchen_Kleines_Stadtwappen.svg/200px-Muenchen_Kleines_Stadtwappen.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Wappen_ingolstadt.png/150px-Wappen_ingolstadt.png

I am trying to find more, but I can't seem to find any...heraldry is really hard to find for the era, so I was thinking of a solution. I take the upper half of any given flag and color it the primary faction color, and take the lower half and color it the secondary faction color. Thoughts?

[CountMRVHS]

I think a simple idea is generally best, YLAC -- so I'd be tempted to go with the 2-color flag idea.

The pics you post are interesting, but they seem just stylistically to be rather late for the early medieval period, & you're right -- I don't think there's much in the way of existing images for heraldry of the period.

BTW, great idea for a mod -- a period that has fallen through the cracks of the official TW games! I started something like this for myself a year or so ago; a Charlemagne-era mod using the MTW Europe map. Didn't get very far -- I was limited to using just the original map, and I never got around to making any units -- but I did hammer out some factions and get their starting positions. I haven't read this whole thread but I assume you've got that stuff well figured out.

Good luck!

CountMRVHS

[ULC]

Any material is good material Count. I'd love to see with what you cooked up. I was almost thinking of asking if you wanted to pool our efforts to speed things up. I've been lucky so far though, having Axel scrounge info from the net, Kahvan Isbul with his info on the bulgars, OmarPacha with his stunning map.

[Hound of Ulster]

Oh, forgot to mention...

Those units are from the Osprey Elite volume "Sassinsid Elite Cavalry". Some titles that you could have could include 'Andarzabad' (royal counseler), 'Pushtighban-Salar' (royal bodyguard commander), 'Mobadan Mobad' (Chief of the Zoroastrain Magi) and 'Vuzurg-Framandar' (Great Commander). Proviencial governers were called 'Spahbad'.

[axel]

Hi YourLordandConqueror,

If you cane PM me your E mail ill send you more heraldrieks and flags and banners of factions

[Hound of Ulster]

I did some looking for some Byzantine dark ages-era stuff on Wiki and I didn't turn up much. You should ask the Viking Total War team over at the TWcenter if they are willing to share some research.

I'll do some Gaelic and Arab digging later.

[axel]

Here are somme more links :
this is about Khazars and avars and more turkisch tribes http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.allaboutturkey.com/img/flag_hazar.jpe&imgrefurl=http://www.allaboutturkey.com/states.htm&h=35&w=50&sz=2&hl=nl&start=3&um=1&tbnid=eHzVGhiI7ftZFM:&tbnh=35&tbnw=50&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkhazar%2Bflag%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl%26sa%3DN
http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.friesian.com/history/romania.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.friesian.com/romania.htm&h=111&w=93&sz=2&hl=nl&start=105&um=1&tbnid=TYhH9Uw-zJCL0M:&tbnh=86&tbnw=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dflags%2Bfrom%2Bthe%2Bearly%2Bmiddle%2Bages%26start%3D100%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dnl %26sa%3DN scroll down you will see a menu with periods

[axel]

Here s a link maybe you cane get somme idea s from it : http://www.milminusa.com/littlebigmen/banners/bannermain.htm

[dimitrios the samian]

Good to see it rolling along YLC ..
Axel you are a champion scrounger buddy .. your links are incredible .
Back next week fella's must hit the renovation trail again for the rest of the week .

[axel]

Thanks mate :2thumbsup:
anything to get all dose good mods working :2thumbsup:

[western2]

Hi YLC

Are you any nearer releasing a demo version? I'm dying to see this, not least Omar Pacha's new map

[ULC]

I am currently trying to balance college, life, and MTW, and MTW is losing out. I don't know when, but it will come.

[Sigma]

WEll in the event you ever have to give up with the project, could you make it public domain or hand it over to someone?

[ULC]

Yes, absolutely. I would think it selfish of me not to at least to do that.

[Hound of Ulster]

don't give up, but certainly work at a reasonable pace. Set aside one day a week where do something with the mod. You'll find that a few steps at a time will lead to long walk.

[seireikhaan]

Your Lord and Conqueror, I just want to throw my :2cents: in to the fray, and that I think this will be a great addition to the MTW mod community when you get the chance to finish it. We would finally get a near continuous time line from Macsen's ATW, to yours, to MTW and the various Medieval mods, and finally to Cegorach's Pike and Musket. I'm afraid I can't be of much help, as I lack the skills and computer to help much, but I just thought I'd chip in with a little encouragement. :thumbsup:

[Hound of Ulster]

I second Kamikhan's motion.

[Raz]

Don't forget Napoleonic: Total War. :2thumbsup:

[Hound of Ulster]

don't be afraid to hand off to Cegorach or Macsen Rufus. They do good work.

[Frunk]

As annoing as many will see it, I am really keen on seeing this mod and must call this post a bump.

[Sigma]

Bumping becuase its to important to loose...

[Sigma]

YLC, if you cannot finish the mod, try to find the time if you can and make the files public, to prevent lose of much hard work...


Bump again...

[western]

I second that. OmarPacha's eastward extension of the main map could be really useful to other Mods as well:2thumbsup:

[ULC]

Sorry for the lack of updates guys. I've been real busy with life, and haven't been able to put much work into the mod. I've put it on temporary hiatus for now, and will make an effort to make the files public if anyone wishes to work on it will I'm not.

[Hound of Ulster]

all hail YLC!

[max_minimod]

Interesting thread, maybe it makes sense to check each others threads:
We do a Dark Age mod in RTW/BI and have the same probs with banners/icons like you guys have here :2thumbsup:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=568

Keep up the good work!

[Frunk]

Any movement anyone?