ALMUGHAVARS are the best¡¡¡ [Archive]

DrNo

07-16-2002, 00:40

ChivalricFootKnights are toughest infantry in game based on stats in demo.

JanissaryHeavyInfantry are very expensive but I guess they will fare better in desert than CFK, so may justify their cost while having lesser stats.

Almughavars will be very good LI if you can effectively use the Javs, if not then not much use.

Hashishin will rock, with great h-t-h stats and an archer unit too, shame they only come in 12 in a box size http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Emp. Conralius

07-16-2002, 00:54

I still the think the Jannisary core as a whole have the best troops. Jannisary Heavy inf. are great soldiers, Jannisary Bows are the best archers in the Muslim realm (only rivaled by longbows).

Kraxis

07-16-2002, 14:42

As well as the Jannisary Infantry will be a good mix of both, a very versatile unit.
I'm looking forward to a unit that has the option to fire at the enemy before engaging in close combat. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Kraxis (edited 07-16-2002).]

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 15:38

you are wrong, the almughavars are very powerfull in hand to hand combat. His force dóesn`t come only from his javelines

DrNo

07-16-2002, 16:26

Bruteztrausen, you asked for any info on Almughavars from demo in other thread.

Thought it best the way that thread as gone to reply in this one.

So here goes with useful info:

Almughavars, infantry, cost 425, 60 men in unit.
Honour step value = 3 ! Now most other units have this as 1 or 2 so this could be significant indicator to Javelin performance in killing enemy. i.e. takes more kills for this unit to gain honour than others.

CHARGE_BONUS( 6 ), MELEE_BONUS( 3 ), DEFENCE_BONUS( 0 ), ARMOUR_LEVEL( 2 ), HONOUR_LEVEL( 8 ), AMMO( 4 ),

Cav attack bonus of 1, Defense Bonus of 4.

Available all periods and to all factions.

Hope that's of interest.

The Korean Skirmishers in STW were lethal if they got to use Javelins so I imagine Almughavars will behave in same way but with great anti-cav ability.

Best use I found was to let another unit engage the enemy to fix them in place and then let the Javelins go to work.

Anyone got any spare peasents? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 17:30

THank you very much DrNo.but...Why every nations can take them?
What kind of building I need for have them?
What is more expensive a troop of almughavars or a troop of men at arms?

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 17:51

DrNo Do you know a screenshot where can I see an almughavar?

Thane Talain MacDonald

07-16-2002, 17:54

I personally believe that the Billmen will be the best irregular infantry in the game.

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 18:06

I don´t think that a slow peasant armed with an billhock and chain coat could win an almughavar armed with spear and with more agility

DrNo

07-16-2002, 18:43

Bruteztrausen, don't know of any screenshots as demo dosn't have all units available.

I don't this unit is going to be as you think it should be, as it's not as strong in h-t-h as Billmen. It's still not bad in that it will beat spearmen and most other ordinary troop types.

I think 1 unit of almughavars vs 1 unit of Billmen would be an interesting contest as the Javelins would reduce Billmen numbers very quickly giving them numerical advantage in h-t-h.

Interestingly the building requirement column is empty. Other units that have this emtpy can generally only be built in one particular region. So it's probable you will have to own the region where they come from to be able to build them.

Remember the files in the demo are not complete so anything could be changed when game is released including the stats of units.

Kraxis

07-16-2002, 18:44

Billmen were professionals, not peasants. And in one on one the Almugharvar would probably win because of his javelins, but when units were figthing I believe that the longer reach of the bill would make the difference.

The Almugharvar seems to be a very good unit against cavalry, they end with 4/4 stats, not bad for a unit that has yet to recieve any valour upgrades.
It is available to all since it is a Mercenary unit.

Thane Talain MacDonald

07-16-2002, 18:58

Ah, I was under the impression Billmen were so feared because their weapon was like the crossbow or firearm, easy to train and use.

I always wanted Samurai Muskets in S:TW http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Kraxis

07-16-2002, 19:35

Will ahve to go into that, but the British army was a little bit ahead of the others by having many local soldier that were payed on a regular basis...
So they could very well have been peasants but thought a life in the army was better "Uncle Richard need YOU!"

If a weapon is easy to learn to use it is most likely also easier to become quite well with it.

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 19:50

but almughavars fought every day against moors and they had a very hard style of life, living in forest and lunching a bread or herbes in a day.They were very trained,and his most powerfull hability was his agility.They could win against an well armored soldier with a long weapon

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 19:56

Mac Donald you said that it is easy to use a weapon like the javelin but the almughavars could cross the shield, the armor and the body of a knight at same time

Kraxis

07-16-2002, 20:42

Listen, I said the Almugharvar would win one on one... but a formation of long weapons are not to be trifled at. Time and time again in history superior trained men have been beaten by less skilled men with other weapons.

You say the fought the moors mostly, right? The moors, or the Almohads (could just as well have been Almoravids) as they are called in this game fielded just the same type of units. Fast, light and agile. Naturally that would have an impact on the way they fought, and heavy armour would become more and more foreign to them. Though being both well trained and in good shape and have valuable experience they would make a good account of themselves, that is to be expected. But having such an advantage as the one you speak of is impossible.
The heavy infantry was more agile than one should think nowadays.

Emp. Conralius

07-16-2002, 22:54

Wouldn't you think that a sword bearing infantry such as the Chivalric Men-At-arms would defeat a polearms unti such as the Billmen. I went to my uncle's house (he's a beta) and saw an army of CM-A-A in Lithuania, and totally ahniallated a unit of Billmen of open terrain.

Emp. Conralius

07-16-2002, 22:56

You'de think in the game that the Sultan would be guarded by Jannisaries, but he's protected by the Persian Saphavids, or the Porte Siphavi

bruteztrausen

07-17-2002, 00:00

Kraxis that you says is OK but the almughavars anhikilated a very superior armies of byzantine heavy soldiers and caused them a lot of deaths.I will send you a direction of a page of history in spanish. I hope that you have a traductor.

Kraxis

07-17-2002, 01:21

Unfortuantely I have not, so it wouldn't do me much good. Sure you can't find it in english? Or at least give me the name of the battle. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Emp. of course I would, should they be properly armoured.

bruteztrausen

07-17-2002, 01:29

there is a battle in cefiso,but you can find almughavars or Companyia catalana.
There was a lot of battles in Turkey(filadelfia,ankara)in greece(Gallipoli,Cefiso)conquest of Athens and Neopatry)

bruteztrausen

07-17-2002, 03:20

they smeared the battlefield in the battle of cefiso and killed more than 6000 knights from France.First they trhowed the javelins and the "azcona"(spear) and then they attacked with his knives(COLLTELL)The infantry was anhikilated by them and their allies the turcopoles.

Emp. Conralius

07-17-2002, 04:30

Although they sound vicious, how long did these guys last?

Papewaio

07-17-2002, 06:08

Quote Originally posted by bruteztrausen:
they smeared the battlefield in the battle of cefiso and killed more than 6000 knights from France.First they trhowed the javelins and the "azcona"(spear) and then they attacked with his knives(COLLTELL)The infantry was anhikilated by them and their allies the turcopoles.[/QUOTE]

Keyword: French Knights

How well did they do against Germanic Knights or Welsh Longbows or Swiss Pikes?

Emp. Conralius

07-17-2002, 08:19

Almughavars
These lightly armoured Catalan mercenaries ply their trade all round the Mediterranean. They are shock troops armed with javelins that give them a fearsome missile attack to open gaps for a subsequent charge with their spears. Few others can match their professional determination and ferocity. Though they are tough, they can't really match up with heavy infantry.

Thane Talain MacDonald

07-17-2002, 11:30

It seems to me that heavy infantry will be a lot more important to Medieval in the later eras than they ever were in Shogun where you could win most battles with Yari and Archers.

Eiji Shinkuro

07-17-2002, 12:15

my god.................................
soooooooooooooo........how bout that WC3?? Not a bad game ah?? ^_^

------------------
A man lives for 50 years...Compared to the lowest heaven it is a dream...An illusion

bruteztrausen

07-17-2002, 14:56

In the real world they could match it.

bruteztrausen

07-17-2002, 14:58

In the real world they could match it.
And they didn`t fight against welsh archers, swiss pikemen or germanic knights but they won the genovese troops and the alan mercenaries in Bizantine Imperium.

Emp. Conralius

07-17-2002, 23:04

Byzantium has a very well rounded army. It's just, from what Darkmoor said, they have a large amount of land and very few men. Byzanitnes have the Kataphratoi, Byzantine Infantry, Byzantine Cavalry, Varangian Guard, Trebizond Archers...

Hirosito

07-18-2002, 02:51

having seen byz. inf and cav in action i would have to agree very well rounded

------------------
Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

Kongamato

07-18-2002, 04:46

Does anybody know how the Hospitaller FootKnights compare to other Heavy Infantry?

Emp. Conralius

07-18-2002, 06:55

I read that they are pretty reliable in most circumstances. But since they are wieghted down by heavy armour, these Knights really only need to fear ranged units.

Hirosito

07-18-2002, 17:18

talk about slow units: gothic sargeants

SattP

07-19-2002, 03:25

Quote Originally posted by Emp. Conralius:
Byzantium has a very well rounded army.[/QUOTE]I don't recall the Byzantines haven't a wonderful army historically. I thought they were a powerful trading nation and outlived the Western empire because of this. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if I were wrong. I plan on playing as the Byzantines my first playthrough.

Kraxis

07-19-2002, 05:13

Ohh yes, their army was indeed very effective.

In the years after the collapse of the Western Empire they almost captured it all back, only missing Brittain, Gaul and Spain.

The army was never the root for the losses they suffered, often it was the generals tinkering in politics and the politicians backstabbing ways, that caused losses.

They will have several very poverful units at their disposal.

Emp. Conralius

07-19-2002, 05:17

Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Ohh yes, their army was indeed very effective.

In the years after the collapse of the Western Empire they almost captured it all back, only missing Brittain, Gaul and Spain.

The army was never the root for the losses they suffered, often it was the generals tinkering in politics and the politicians backstabbing ways, that caused losses.

They will have several very poverful units at their disposal.[/QUOTE]

Actually, they got back Spain, but were driven out by Visigoths. And they took some parts of Italy as well as Egypt. But then, the fury of Islam hit 'em hard! The Byzantine chain of command became so corrupt that they lost the Battle of Manzikert. All this due to envious trechery.

turken00

07-21-2002, 16:31

Emp., I just want to reply to one of your earlier comments. The Sipahi or Sipahi of the Porte are not soldiers of Saphavid Persia, if that's what you were saying. They are Turkish. They are just like the Janissaries except they are trained to fight on horses.

turken00

07-21-2002, 16:38

Is it possible to make a MOD for the Demo so that I can use Janissary units? I'm really curious how they actually perform on the battlefield. If anybody knows of any MODS like that please let me know.

Emp. Conralius

07-21-2002, 23:01

Quote Originally posted by turken00:
Emp., I just want to reply to one of your earlier comments. The Sipahi or Sipahi of the Porte are not soldiers of Saphavid Persia, if that's what you were saying. They are Turkish. They are just like the Janissaries except they are trained to fight on horses.[/QUOTE]

That brings up a good point Turken. You see, there are 2 forms of Siphahi's in the game. There are the Ottoman Siphahi, which are Turkish. I was refering to the Siphahi de Porte who are slaves from Partia (Persia) trained to guard the sultan. They are the one's in a Sultan or prince's unit on the battle field. They are armed with bows and swords. This is odd because the usual bodyguard for any King in the game consist of heavy cav. But these guys can fight toe-to-toe with most heavy cav. and still wind.

Oh, and I don't think thereisany possible way to be the Jannisaries in the demo. But, I believe Choco is working on a mod that includes the Almughavars...

turken00

07-21-2002, 23:12

Emp. I understand why you might think Sipahi of the Porte are Persian, they sound similar. But I'm afraid that you are mistaken. "Porte" refers to the Grand Vizier's and ministers' chambers in Istanbul. The full name is called Sublime Porte. In French it means "the lofty gate." It was basically a palace for the Grand Vizier(Commander of the Ottoman Army) and his top ministers and generals. I believe the Grand Vizier held conferences with foreign ambassadors and princes in this palace. I know all this because im Turkish and I have a great interest in Ottoman history. The Sublime Porte has nothing to do with Persia, but it's easy to get confused so I don't blame you.

[This message has been edited by turken00 (edited 07-21-2002).]