WHO WILL HAVE THE BEST INFANTRY? [Archive]

Grifman

07-14-2002, 23:47

Actually the Swiss had real problems, like most phalanx type units against good swordsmen. While they could devastate cavalry that charged them, like the problems the Macedonians had with the Roman legions, the Swiss were often butchered by the Spanish tercios when they got in among them.

Grifman

Kraxis

07-15-2002, 01:06

Griffman is right, so while the Swiss might be the best against cavalry they are not the best overall. Billmen would punish them good and well I should think.

Emp, you took your list out from the values of the units?

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 01:07

In this game, normal swordweilding infantry do better against polearms. Polearms do good against cav. Cav. do good against infantry, etc...the Swiss will have a hard time.

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 01:12

To answer your question Kraxis, no I din't. A good unit of heavy infantry such as Feudal Men-at-arms or Jannisary Heavy Infantry could easily take on Swiss Pikes. Remember that pikes are very long and heavy and are hard to use in a horizontal-type fashion. By this I mean it's easier for them to just attack oncomming cav than to fight with the virically lower infantry. Hope I don't confuse you!

bruteztrausen

07-15-2002, 01:27

do you have the table of force and defense of every units? tell me anithing about the almughavars in battle

Nelson

07-15-2002, 02:47

The Swiss, at various times, used all sorts of polearms not just pikes. The Pope's guards still carry halberds. Besides, it wasn't weapons that made the Swiss great, it was the Swiss. Their morale, their training and their ferocious agressiveness. They were the favorite mercs of French kings.

I never said they alone were the best. I said second to none, not peerless. I stand by that assesment. Landsknechts were famous too. The truth is anybody's infantry could get the job done in the right situation. The Swiss were notorious in their own time for good reason.

Kraxis

07-15-2002, 03:21

hehehe

Emp. That was not me who asked about the Swiss pikes, I asked if you made you list from the table... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I know very well the limitations and advantages of the pikes.

Having played with the Byzantine Infantry I must confess they are no less than great against other infantry but they faltered against good cavalry, they simply suffered too many casualties.
And Billmen they were great against all, I sent them against anything in sight and they had the Winning Easily...

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 04:38

Kraxis,

If you go back and read one of your own posts, you'll see thatyou asked me if I based my choices on unit values. So, heheh ya did!

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 04:39

And Kraxis, I wasn't talking to you about the pikes!

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 04:40

Jannisary Heavy Infantry can be relied on to be every unit in the game. Even Billman. I played a mod where I totally, slaughtered Billman fighting toe-to-toe.

Kraxis

07-15-2002, 04:47

I must have overlooked the "no I didn't"... but when you continued to talk on about the Swiss in the same line it looked like you responded to me.

Aelfred Magna

07-15-2002, 05:20

Conralius, I would hope they WOULD beat billmen, since billmen are armed with anti-calvary polearms, while Jannisary infantry are specifically designed to take out other foot units.

bruteztrausen

07-15-2002, 05:54

and what about the almughavars? They won the turks and byzntines a lot of times

bruteztrausen

07-15-2002, 06:03

the almughavars (ARAGON) where fierce mercenaries who destroyed huge armies with a llitle one.
They won the turks and bizantines in many times and they plundered all byzantine imperium.
So I think that they must be one of the best troops of infantry in medieval warfare

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 08:02

Magna,

I've SEEN the Jannisaries lay waste to Billmen! I think that I would know!

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 08:09

If the Almughavars were so powerful, how come they were conquered by a fledgling Christian nation like Spain?

Aelfred Magna

07-15-2002, 13:03

hey, Conralius, I wasn't disputing you about the defeated billmen . . . just saying that that's how it's supposed to work. Didn't mean offense.

bruteztrausen

07-15-2002, 14:57

conradius study history, Aragon was never conquered by castile. The both kingdoms were united because IsabelOF cAStile and FERNANDO de Aragon married.

Darkmoor_Dragon

07-15-2002, 17:12

well a lot depends on ear and valour here... remember you may well be comparing infantry that only "overlap" for a short time (not that you cant keep on using them though)

Early era though the byzantine inantry are pretty darn good and late Order Knights are like Kingtigers (slow but mean), Halbediers also pack a nasty punch but are terribly slow.

Kraxis

07-15-2002, 19:01

Almugharvars are mercenaries in the game, armed with javelins. Supposedly quite good as you say.

bruteztrausen

07-15-2002, 20:54

what is the typical danish soldier?

Vanya

07-15-2002, 23:44

Quote Originally posted by bruteztrausen:
what is the typical danish soldier?[/QUOTE]

GAH!

I thought danish was a pastry!

GAH!

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 23:47

No problem Magna....I see Brautezhausen...

Emp. Conralius

07-15-2002, 23:48

The Turks also have the Jannisary Infantry, they carry axes and bows, very flexible unit. My only problem with the Turks is their colors! Very ugly on em!

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 00:10

when a unit surrender They drop their weapons?
Weapons take red color along the battle?

Emp. Conralius

07-16-2002, 00:51

units get captured after te battle, you can't see them surrender or anyhing like that.

Krasturak

07-16-2002, 03:11

Gah!

Rages will have the best infantry!

Gah!

Kraxis

07-16-2002, 14:28

bruteztrausen,

you asked what unit will be the danish unique unit... That will be the *drumroll* Housecarle.
But in reality it was a Saxon unit, not a danish one.

Maybe they should just have made the Danish Axemen unit with the big danish battleaxe.

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 17:35

It will be a cmpaign of the GRAND CATALAN COMPANY?It would be very interesant

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 18:09

I`ve seen that he has the typical saxon rouns shield. It must be meravellous to hold a position

Kraxis

07-16-2002, 18:39

barocca posted his stats and they seems very offensive-minded. A unit that is supposed to attack the enemy and not wait for them (like spearmen and pikemen).

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 20:14

And what about highlanders? what weapon they use? The claymore?

Kraxis

07-16-2002, 20:33

No idea... it is not included in the demo, and if we can create a battle with it, then we can't see their weapons. Pikemen looks like they beat down the horses... Strong guys http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Emp. Conralius

07-16-2002, 23:02

the Highlanders are pure offense. Not sure what there weapons are but maybe swords or axes. Not much armor, so they can't take a whole lot. I'de think they'de fight well in the woods as well as some valour bonuses...

bruteztrausen

07-16-2002, 23:52

And the campaigns of William Wallace...Are only in one province or it is like the campaign of shogun mongol invasion(Oda Nobunaga,Toyotomi Hydeyoshi...)?

ThorfinnSkullsplitter

07-17-2002, 00:05

The best infantry will be Byzantines,early era anyways.

Red Peasant

07-17-2002, 00:21

Only really the elite Varangian Guard, much like the English 'Huscarls', wielding their mighty double-headed battleaxes....NICE.

------------------
"Gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo"
--Ovid
(The drop hollows the stone not by force but by dripping often)

Kraxis

07-17-2002, 01:25

Their orgin (Huskarls and Varangian Guard weapons) were the same, though from different times.

But their weapons were very different as the Huskarls were armed with the danish battleaxe, a very longshafted one headed axe.
The Varangians used a doubleheaded axe of somewhat shorther length (so it wouldn't become unbalanced and thus useless).

Emp. Conralius

07-17-2002, 02:13

I don't think Wallace has his own campaign, but he will appear in the single player campaign around the 13th century. Are the Varangian Guards the unit that protects the Byzantine royalty? Ya know, like the English have the Royal Knights and the Egyptians and Moors have the Ghulam Bodyguards?

Emp. Conralius

07-17-2002, 02:15

I really can't wait to play!!!! Only about a month left in the US for it's release! I believe I'll play the Byzantine campaign in the Early Era, England or Italy in the High Era, and the Turks in the late era. My firneds, the walls of Constantinople await only our arrival!

Kongamato

07-17-2002, 02:19

Hello, I would like to chime in on this thread with some questions of my own. The Knights Hospitaller have an infantry unit that is described as an "infantry elite". Do any of you know how they compare to other Heavy Infantry in this game?

whee it's my first post

Red Peasant

07-17-2002, 02:24

Maybe you are right about the Varangian Guard but it is well known that many Anglo-Saxon 'refugee' warriors fled England after the conquest and joined the Emperor's Varangian Guard in Constantinople. One assumes that they used their weapon of choice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Harald 'Hardrada' (the ruthless) of Norway was, I believe, the commander of the Guard before he returned to Scandinavia laden down with accumulated riches with which he funded his wars in Denmark and England. He met his end alongside Harold II's brother, Tostig, at Stamford Bridge in 1066. Therefore, I'm quite certain the Guard and the Huscarls were contemporary.

------------------
"Gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo"
--Ovid
(The drop hollows the stone not by force but by dripping often)

Kraxis

07-17-2002, 06:30

Ohh yes they were around at the same time, but the Housecarles used the older version of the danish battleaxe, while the Guard used a custom axe with its roots in the later viking axes (basically the oneheaded version of teh Guards axe).

I have no doubt that some of the Saxon men used their axes in Byzantine service.

Stephen Hummell

07-17-2002, 07:24

Maybe the norweigean berserkers. They were just under 200 years before the game begins but they would be a good unique unit. They were crazy in battle. They wore wolf or bear skins in battle and took the heads of their enemys (which were other vikings). They were outlawed by the king of norway. CRAZY DUDES!!!!

bruteztrausen

07-17-2002, 18:12

What weapons have the Galloglass and the russians?

turken00

07-20-2002, 20:08

Who will have the best infantry? Thats easy to answer. The Turks, of course. Who can compete with Janissaries??? They are simply the most dedicated, fierce, and deadly fighting force in late Medieval history. No one stood in their paths. The Byzantine cataphracts and infantry were a joke compared to them. Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, Hungary, Macedonia, the Ukraine, southern Russia, the Crimea, ALL of the Middle East, Persia, and ALL of North Africa were conquered by the Elite Janissaries. The most well-defended city at that time, Constantinople, which had never before been captured, fell to the Janissaries after a short siege in 1453. Taking on almost all of Europe single-handedly, the Janissaries could not be stopped. Even Vienna would have been captured in 1529 or 1683, but the Janissaries were tired of war and wanted to return back to their homelands. They weren't defeated.. as many people seem to think. Combine this force with the Spahis (the Janissary equivalent of cavalry) the Turks will and should be an unstoppable force.

Emp. Conralius

07-20-2002, 22:15

Quote Originally posted by bruteztrausen:
What weapons have the Galloglass and the russians?[/QUOTE]

I believe the Gallowglass carry javelins for throwing...like the Korean Skirmishers.

Yager

07-20-2002, 23:33

I'm predicting that all the people who love the Turks are going to get annihilated their first time out. Why? They are going to be too reliant on the flexible class that has the bow and the sword. A good cavalry charge is going to wipe them out. Some heavily armored Germanic Knights are going to hold ground much easier than them.

The thing about the Swiss units is that it is all in perspective. They are made to augument their archers. Why are they made to augument their archers? It is because they have quite possibly the most defendable terrain in game. Sit them on a hilltop surrounded by their polearm soldiers and cavalry will have an impossible time while any sort of infantry that tries to get up there will be layed to waste by their archers.

Emp. Conralius

07-21-2002, 00:58

Well when I play I'm primarily gonna use the Jannisary Heavy Infantry, which which would wipe out a charge of knights because they have polearms. But you ar right about the more flexible units. But they aslo have axes, and give your knights a big suprise.

Kongamato

07-21-2002, 02:04

I do not think the Gallowglass carry Javelins. You may have mistaken them for the other Irish unit, the Kerns, which are light skirmishers in disorganized formation. Here is a description of the Gallowglass:

Gallowglasses
In some ways Ireland is a relic of earlier times - Gallowglasses are Celtic warriors. Armed with axes, they are loyal to a clan chieftain, swift and fierce in battle, and have an almost berserker-like rage. They also are reputed to take the heads of slain enemies as trophies.

They have axes then. They also like to cut heads off.

As far as the Russians go, I do not think that they have anything different than bows, swords, and spears.

And as far as Janissary Heavy Infantry goes, I wonder how they will handle Naptha Throwers. I think that they are too expensive to rush with, so you will need to protect them well from units like NTs, or your uberturks will get BBQd.

[This message has been edited by Kongamato (edited 07-20-2002).]

Emp. Conralius

07-21-2002, 04:03

ya, but they might blow themselves up as well...

turken00

07-21-2002, 04:20

I truly think that unless Janissaries are very very expensive, the Turks will rule this game. Look at the unit description for all of the Turkish units. Do you see any weaknesses listed? I don't see any. The Janissary Archers, Janissary light infantry and heavy infantry all seem to be amazing units. Add to this the Ottoman infantry, the Spahis, and Spahis of the Porte... I really cannot see anyone competing with an army like this. But for the sake of balance, CA will probably make all these units extremely expensive which might then give other nations a chance.

One thing I don't get however. If you play the early era as Turks do you play as Seljuks or Ottomans? or is it just "Turks". The Ottomans began to show up towards the end of the thirteenth century so it would be historically inaccurate to be able to play as them early in the game. And there was also considerable differences between the Ottomans and Seljuks in terms of fighting strategies. The Seljuk armies were mainly composed of lightly armored horse archers who were very mobile, yet the Ottomans relied on brute force, using a mix of armored troops and mobile troops. I wonder if the Turks have basically the same units all throughout in the game, or if they change gradually.

Kraxis

07-21-2002, 04:30

All armies evolve through time...

So at first you will most likely see a lot of Turcomans in your army and later the Ottoman Infantry will come into play.
Wouldn't it be a bit unfair and unrealistic if one of the strongest units (Heavy Jannisary) were available at the onset of the game? It would actually be boring if the army didn't evolve.

Stephen Hummell

07-21-2002, 04:42

The billmen in my opinion are the best infantry. Yeah you might think they are just for cav. but they do just as much damage to infantry. Used them in Jaffa and they killed over 1500 men. And lost less than 100.

Stephen Hummell

07-21-2002, 04:45

We will see how they fair against the Golden Horde in the 1200's. The turks I mean.

turken00

07-21-2002, 05:16

Well the Mongols are a tough adversary of course. No army in history was able to defeat them.... except for a bunch of lucky Egyptian Mamelukes in a minor battle. But I think the Turks can hold their ground against the Mongols if you use good strategies. In a frontal assault any army should be obliterated by the Mongols.

Yager

07-21-2002, 05:16

A problem with the Turks is that they seem to be either completely focused on one area or they are rather flexible. This will make for a lot of mixed armies but I'm going to say they will wiped out by a guy thinking about what he is doing. Germany will crush them beneath their boots. I am the Tin Man!

Emp. Conralius

07-21-2002, 05:53

riiiiiiite...well from what I heard, when the Mongols come nto play, hey usually square off with the Rushkies.

Emp. Conralius

07-21-2002, 06:02

Plus, looking from the unit stats, the only real weakness of Jannisary Heavy Inf. is probably just being hit home (from the rear). Since my uncle's a beta, I personally go the chance to square of with the Teutonic Knights, and, in all honesty, they where no match whatsoever! And it was one of those "perfect" engagements. You know, were both sides have their spears down, ready to kill each other. My formation managed to cut my impetuous enemies in half. The only real threat that came during a battle with the english. For the most part, my Jannisaries could absord arrow fire (for the most part) and then I met my match with (tada!) the Billmen. Although for most of the engagement we were "evenly matched", the combo of Billhooks and arrows caused a suprising amout of casualties! But, my Saharan Cav. managed to flank the Longbows. After the bowmen routed, I was able to crush them from behind with some 'ol axes.

I for one like the Turks, but they are by no means invincible.

Stephen Hummell

07-21-2002, 06:52

From what I've seen on the screens the mongols are on the frontal lines with the turks and Byzantium. Plus they will go farter if Ogadai or whatever his name is, doesn't get drunk and choke on his own vomit. But they will probably stay longer than after Ogadai.

Stephen Hummell

07-21-2002, 06:54

The Hospitatler foot knights should be good.

Stephen Hummell

07-21-2002, 06:57

There are jannisarys in the demo?

Emp. Conralius

07-21-2002, 07:11

nope...

Hirosito

07-21-2002, 16:12

as emp said ihis uncle is a beta...

emp even though the yteutonic knights are good i never expected them to be invincible especially when faced with a well organised spear unit. their bonus is the charge which should be near irresitable but in a pitched fight with spears they'll hvae a tough time

------------------
Hirosito Mori

Hirosito the Baptist of the Babbiest Babe Thread.

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

Emp. Conralius

07-21-2002, 22:50

I agree. I just didn't expect those damn Billmen do give me such a hard time!

turken00

07-22-2002, 03:18

Hey Emp... you mentioned that the Turks had really ugly colors. Can you tell me what color that is? and would it be possible to make a MOD where you can change the colors of the factions, because I will be really mad if the Turks really do have crap colors.