View Full Version : Cannons will add massive tactical options
I know this may sound bizzare, but it will add to the timing of yr charges, and the person using the cannons has a great tactiacal job of forcing you into there killing grounds, a but a hazy cavalry over in the woods would force the attacking player to keep going, or take a massaive risk, desperately trying to outflank cannons. And remember cannons take up A WHOLE UNIT of your forces, so ou have to use them well, I think they will be incredible tactically, a new challenge.
bruteztrausen
07-17-2002, 00:07
yes but the medieval cannons havent the enought accuracy to aim and destry the unit.
But it would be fanatstic defend a hill with a few cannons against an all army of peasants http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Cannons cant shoot down well, so the best place is flat terrain protected by pikes
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
The siege engines in the demo become very accurate and destructive when targeting troops. If guns are similar they will have to be avoided at all costs.
yeh! exactly, they have to be avioded at all costs! thats your job isnt it! if ya wanna win? it adds tactics that no one sees
NagatsukaShumi
07-17-2002, 00:52
But lets not forget this, if Ca have learned their lessons Cannons will be destructive but have long reload times, the danger of blowing up killing surrounding units and very little acuracy other than that of blowing up anything charging. Powerfuller weapons will I agree add strategy as the attacker or defenders as you will have to be very careful how you use your tactics.
The Scourge
07-17-2002, 01:08
Quote Originally posted by NagatsukaShumi:
But lets not forget this, if Ca have learned their lessons Cannons will be destructive but have long reload times, the danger of blowing up killing surrounding units and very little acuracy other than that of blowing up anything charging. Powerfuller weapons will I agree add strategy as the attacker or defenders as you will have to be very careful how you use your tactics.[/QUOTE]
They used stone cannon balls at that time,so they shouldn\t be blowing anything up.And with long load times,we may all find out that they really don\t belong on the battle field.Only as siege weapons,as was the case.
Still be interesting to find out.
Indeed no blowing up on impact, instead the ball would bounce on the ground making them deadly if the enemy walked in close formation.
I'm looking forward to the less than very accurate demi-culverin, it seems it can actually be moved about and has a reasonable rate of fire. It would actually be useful in a set-piece battle, I should think.
Red Peasant
07-17-2002, 02:01
According to a recent interview on Gamespy the cannonballs can be seen to bounce along the ground.
The army of 'peasants' will rule, Brutez! Your primitive cannon will not save you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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"Gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo"
--Ovid
(The drop hollows the stone not by force but by dripping often)
Emp. Conralius
07-17-2002, 02:09
Ballistas should also be devastating. Iwonder how the cannons look once fired. Will a flash and smoke appear like the muskets in STW? Will you be able to physically see the cannon ball in motion? It'll most likely move as fast as an arrow...
Kongamato
07-17-2002, 02:24
I would like to say that the unit that is made to take out defensive gunpowder and siege units in this game appears to be the Serpentine Cannon. It is described as a cannon of "snake-like proportions" that fires a 1 Kg projectile, which is tiny compared to the other cannonballs out of a very long barrel. It will be mobile, and will probably have superior range due to it's long barrel. So, IMHO it will be the perfect weapon to blast those pesky enemy engineers with.
there must be some screen shot of a cannon
Emp. Conralius
07-17-2002, 04:27
Rokkaku, there are plenty...
Divine Wind
07-17-2002, 04:49
U got the url for the ss's?
Emp. Conralius
07-17-2002, 10:45
http://mediaviewer.ign.com/ignMediaPage.jsp?media_id=1300691&object_id=17257&channel_id=59&page_title=Medieval%3A+Total+War&adtag=network%3Dign%26pagetype%3Darticle%26site%3Dpchubv iewer&return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fpc.ign.com%2Fobjects%2F017%2F017257.html
NagatsukaShumi
07-17-2002, 20:25
I meant there would be a danger of the cannon blowing up if some misunderstood my post.
Cannons blowing up would be most entertaining...not just for the fun of the gun itself and the hapless crew being on it's receiving end...but rather when you depend on it to take out pesky peasants and all they have to do is poke the corpses and get credit for a victory...
vyanvotts
07-17-2002, 22:39
thats the first screenie i seen of a cannon on this game
I wanna see one firing, I meant back then are there any screens abot that?
can cannonballs go through two units, will u aim at th unit or at the ground, at the ground would be great tactically
I think the option of exploding cannon balls should be added...can effect morale and have a larger kill radius than a bouncing projectile...fun when you hit walls and other structures with it as well...now if they didn't exist during the time period in question than never mind... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Emp. Conralius
07-19-2002, 05:06
There isn't an exploding cannonball. When fired, the cannonball may bounce an tear through some soldiers, but it eventually "disappears".
disspaers, well thats just crap! it should bury itself in the mud and sytay there so it looks like theres beeen more carnage!
Definately! Detail adds character! If arrows and the like could remain in the soil as well that would be cool too! Handle spent missiles as field casualties!
Emp. Conralius
07-19-2002, 23:36
Definately Spank! The arrows in the soil would add a whole lot of realism.
after a battle, u wanna see carnage! lots of it, hcarred cannonballs, arrows and weapons as wel as the mandotory bodies.
How annoyd would we all be if bodies just dissapeared.
Red Devil
07-20-2002, 04:06
Some links for Medieval weapons etc.
Strategy and Tactics in Medieval Warfare - An Overview http://www.sca.org.nz/collegium/uni36/medieval_war.php (http://www.sca.org.nz/collegium/uni36/medieval_war.php)
Balance Throwing, Siege Machines of the Middle Ages & Gunpowder weapons http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/armed_en.htm http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/ngp_arty.htm http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/gp_wpns.htm
The Medieval English Longbow http://www.snt.utwente.nl/~sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html
Encyclopaedia not much detail but good for quick identification/description http://tfk.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0858198.html
Another encyclopaedia (detail level as above)
Ancient and Medieval Fortifications http://ph.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0858197.html
List of books on topic
Medieval Armour and Weapons http://www.sedelmeier.com/weapons.htm
Not much information but lists books available links go to Amazon online
Page of links on many subjects some on topic. Some not working! http://www.links2go.com/more/members.xoom.com/_XMCM/montjoie/ngp_arty.htm
Ancient and Medieval Terminology Arms http://murray.francis.com/medieval/arms.htm
[This message has been edited by Red Devil (edited 07-19-2002).]
Cannons will be a little lacking because they don't have they don't have any sort of cartridge ammunition. Give me two cannons loaded with cartridge balls and I'll annihilate four units.
They will still be formidable if placed on the flanks of a major fighting force... Then again you are going to have to be very careful with them. Hills will be their only use because you wouldnt want the cannon shots to go through your men. A quick charge would take them out of any valuable use.
Kongamato
07-20-2002, 05:50
Use mortars for flat map defense! You can put them at the flanks of your army and not have to worry about taking casualties b/c they will fire over the front line
Red Devil
07-20-2002, 06:32
I think Medieval is too early for Mortars. The Portuguese demonstrated mortars to the Shogun some time after 1620 approx. Out of four charges fired, two exploded in the mortar killing the gunners. One landed deep in mud then exploded covering everyone in sh*t. They finished the demo by placing the last shell in the target building then set it off. The Shogun liked the result. Mortars were not reliable until the 1700s
Early Bombards fired stone cannon balls.
Grape shot was found on the Marry Rose consisted of bundles of flint held together with strips of wood and string (easy loading only)so i dont think you will find these either.
Try this link it will cover what you want to know about the cannons etc
http://www.xenophongroup.com/montjoie/gp_wpns.htm
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Let the Way be our rule! Not to act correctly is the grave of destruction.
[This message has been edited by Red Devil (edited 07-20-2002).]
Kongamato
07-20-2002, 06:40
There ARE mortars in the game, regardless of the historical accuracy. I have a unit description:
Mortar Crew
Mortars are short-barrelled guns that throw shots on a high trajectory over fortifications to plunge down on enemies. Firing mortars can be quite complex, as the angle of fire, amount of gunpowder and even the wind all affect accuracy. They can be used to terrible effect in sieges.
Red Devil
07-20-2002, 07:37
Must be if that description was in the demo however i think they will/should be very late in the game.
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Let the Way be our rule! Not to act correctly is the grave of destruction.
[This message has been edited by Red Devil (edited 07-20-2002).]
There is a problem here in the way people view mortars. We think of the ones from WW2 where it would lob shells high into the air landing and exploding. This mortar is pretty much a hand catapult. Much smaller armament so that it would only be effective enmass.
Quote Originally posted by Yager:
Cannons will be a little lacking because they don't have they don't have any sort of cartridge ammunition. Give me two cannons loaded with cartridge balls and I'll annihilate four units.
They will still be formidable if placed on the flanks of a major fighting force... Then again you are going to have to be very careful with them. Hills will be their only use because you wouldnt want the cannon shots to go through your men. A quick charge would take them out of any valuable use.[/QUOTE]
if by cartridge shot u mean grapeshot, then I think it would be a bit destructive, on the other hand, u had to get very close to use it, very very close! maybe u would have had to sacrifice a peasant unit, ah well, no real loss.
youssof_Toda
07-20-2002, 18:16
If cannons were implemented historically accurate they would be worhtless on the battlefield. They were hard to move, inaccurate, likely to explode themselves and also had a very low firerate. they were mainly used in sieging city's and very rarely on open ground. So yes in siegebattles they could be implemented but on the open battlefield they would suck (again if the developers care about historical accuracy) and that's all the better cuz i think most aren't waiting for some sort of 'supermusks' in MP battles.
I believe you are wrong, I think that cannons had plenty of failures at this time but they were certain absolute killers on the battlefield.
youssof_Toda is right about this.
Defensively, on rare occations in the 15th century, when protected by earthworks or wagenlagers, gunpowder artillery was effective against troops on a battlefield. Otherwise it was pretty useless.
Siege work is where it excelled.
youssof_Toda
07-20-2002, 18:50
believe me that in the early days of cannons their main effect was the BOOM demoralising the enemy and not their effectivenes.
1. they were very heavy ---> hard to move em
2. the steel of the cannos was heated up very fast and they had to cool down for a period in order to prevent overheating ---> fire rate is low
3. if you want to take those cannons with you on the battlefield you can't use those very heavy big cannons but you'll have to use lighter ones. lighter cannons mean they are less strong because less steel can be used ---> they are more likely to explode
4. also their accuracy was very low, even in WW I cannons were still prety much inaccurate.
all this combined makes them more or less useless on a battlefield in this time period. however in a siege these downsides weren't any problem. they wouldn't have to move the cannons because the city couldn't run away (i guess). the same goes for their low fire rate. they could also use heavier guns (which were somethimes also build right on the post, jst outside the besieged city) and most cities were big enough so their inaccuracy didn't count (you would always hit something)
hmmmmm, Im worried, if in medieval the cannons cause people to run away, as thy did in real life, I dont think people will be all that happy.
MagyarKhans Cham
07-20-2002, 19:06
Mongols had light cannons mounted on horses, which we mounted on teh saddle and once used in battle dismounted with the saddle becomming the base for the cannon on the ground as well.
youssof_Toda
07-20-2002, 19:10
hey mag could you tell about the role of these cannons and their effectiveness?
Leave it to the Mongols to come up with something like a horse cannon. Misfire and the ammunition explodes? Roast horse for everyone!
they ate a lot of roast horse the mongols did.
Kongamato
07-22-2002, 10:05
They are implementing this in the form of the Bedouin Camel Gun, the already infamous camel unit with a small jezzail(cannon) on their saddles. Looks like a North African unit.
[This message has been edited by Kongamato (edited 07-22-2002).]
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