Late era tactics

[Flavius Merobaudes]

This is intended to be a thread to discuss tactics for late era units such as gunmen or pikes. I don't know much about this topic and therefore can't post too much.

But I hope to learn something new from other players, and maybe we can exchange some new ideas here.

1. I tried a new tactic to use pikes in combination with melee infantry recently and it proved to be very successful for me. The main problem for me when using pikes was that they can't take the impact of an assaulting melee unit. The first rank would be killed instantly with the others switching to their daggers and getting chewed quite fast. My mistake was that I wanted to use them on the frontline like a phalanx in RTW, but refused to realize that their defence was too weak for this.

Now what I did was to stretch my pikemen out in a thin line three ranks deep only (not very historical), spearwall formation, guard mode off. I then had my melee inf take up their place in front of them within the range of the pikes so that they were approximately as wide as the "pikeline".

When an enemy unit storms into their front now, the melee inf will take the charge which they are quite good at and the pikes won't take damage. They will not switch to daggers either but poke down the enemy that is now engaged in melee with your other unit. You will take very few losses while the enemy will suffer massive casualties. Chances are they will rout very soon.

2. I observed this and couldn't explain it to myself: I tried to refine the above used tactic for the Portuguese using Portuguese Arquebusiers instead of just plain melee inf. When the enemy moves towards me all works fine at first. My gunmen fire their three salvos recircling as they should with the fire per rank animation. But after these three salvos they seem to take a break. There would be enough time for one or two more salvos until the enemy is there, but they just won't shoot. Why do they do this? Is there some historical/technical reason behind this or is it what I would call a bug?

3. Here is some "New Model Army" which I intend to use in my current HRE campaign.

Erstes Kaiserliches Reichfeldkorps:

1 General
4 Reiter
4 Arquebusiers
4 Zweihänder
4 Pikemilitia - substituted by Landknechts later on
2 Serpentines
1 Basilisk

deployment:


RR RR RR RR





AAAAAAA AAAAAAA AAAAAAA AAAAAAA S
B ZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZ S
PPPPPPP PPPPPPP PPPPPPP PPPPPPP
GGG

I expect this army to be able to deal with anything...:smash:
Let me know what you think. Critics welcome.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Why the basilisk? Your serpentines are the best anti infantry guns in the game. Three serpentines can destroy with some difficulty a city wall so you don't really need a basilisk.
Unless you are a Harry Potter fan. :laugh4:

[Flavius Merobaudes]

No, I ain't no fan of the magician-idiot!:wizard: I don't want to offend any fans, but personally I think Harry Potter is boring. And all the hype is really getting on my nerves.

Well, breaking walls is exactly what the basilisk is intended to do. The serpentines 10 attack vs. buildings seems very weak. They might do one wall, but what if it comes to fortresses or even citadels? This army will move slow due to the arty, I don't want it to be even slower by having to siege.

[Per Ole]

My gunmen fire their three salvos recircling as they should with the fire per rank animation. But after these three salvos they seem to take a break. There would be enough time for one or two more salvos until the enemy is there, but they just won't shoot.

Gunpowder infantry (and cavalry) take a lot of time to reload. If you deploy them in three ranks deep, they won't have time to reload before they're at the front line again. This explains why they didn't fire at once.

Also, I tend not to use pikemen, but when I do I deploy them 5 ranks deep, and put gunpowder infantry mixed with them ("on top" of them) so they can fire, but still be protected by the pikes.

[Galapagos]

Just wait a bit i will post my tactic but it takes long to describe it....:laugh4: :embarassed:

[Askthepizzaguy]

So... there's a late era to this game. How interesting!

Marvelous things you can do with mods. Unless... nah, it couldn't be. Perhaps it is a hidden feature you can unlock in the regular game?

Someone please share with me your method for unlocking this secret mode.
I remember one time I actually got all the way up to turn 90, for the explicit purpose of slaying Mongols. Perhaps this mysterious era of the game happens sometime after this.

Might there be units involving this "gum... pow... er" I've heard so much about?

____________________
:elephant: This is the only way to demonstrate how insane I am

[Galapagos]

Where can i store my pictures so i can post their URL?

[TinCow]

Where can i store my pictures so i can post their URL?

Try Photobucket (photobucket.com) or Imageshack (imageshack.us/). Also, please try and keep your posts on-topic Galapagos. This question was better asked in one of the technical forums.

[Galapagos]

Well okk i just asked because i have images related to tactics....:yes:

[TeutonicKnight]

So... there's a late era to this game. How interesting!

Marvelous things you can do with mods. Unless... nah, it couldn't be. Perhaps it is a hidden feature you can unlock in the regular game?

Someone please share with me your method for unlocking this secret mode.
I remember one time I actually got all the way up to turn 90, for the explicit purpose of slaying Mongols. Perhaps this mysterious era of the game happens sometime after this.

Might there be units involving this "gum... pow... er" I've heard so much about?

____________________
:elephant: This is the only way to demonstrate how insane I am

I thought you were a turtle. You sound like a damn bumrusher to me. :yes:

I can't seem to win a game in the allotted timeframe at the normal turn rate (2ypt). Now that's a turtle. :book:

[Askthepizzaguy]

I thought you were a turtle. You sound like a damn bumrusher to me. :yes:

I can't seem to win a game in the allotted timeframe at the normal turn rate (2ypt). Now that's a turtle. :book:

Are you asking me to be your mentor? :beam:

[Galapagos]

https://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb268/Galapagos_photo/Tactic1.jpg
I place my troops just like that.75% of my cavalry is on the left side with 25% of my missile units,this way the enemy believes that i am going for a flank attack and he will place the majority of his cavalry on that side.He will usually place his missile troops behind his infantry and maybe some cavalry on the right side.
https://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb268/Galapagos_photo/Tactic2.jpg
All the army will move forward engaging the enemy.I have superiority on the right side so i must kill or rout all the enemy's cavalry and then move my remaining troops behind the enemy infantry and attack his missile units keeping them occupied,a few units should attack the enemy's infantry on the left flank because your troops need a bit of support.In the left side my troops have to resist the enemy attack just a few minutes till i finish the enemy's infantry.
https://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb268/Galapagos_photo/Tactic3.jpg
In meanwhile ,this is how it should look in the middle of the battle..
https://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb268/Galapagos_photo/Tactic4.jpg
The two "arms" of your army should squeeze the enemy like that....
https://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb268/Galapagos_photo/tactic5.jpg
When you get here there is no escape for the enemy......muhahahaaaa:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :smash: :smash: :skull: :skull:


P.S. I am a noob and don't know how to make them smaller.....:shame: :no: :sweatdrop:

[Askthepizzaguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biE_xQRQUQM
MY EYES! THE GOGGLES DO NOTHING!

-Rainier Wolfcastle









Please wrap a "spoiler alert" around those!

[DisruptorX]

I like the sticking a melee unit right in front of a pike unit tactic. In multiplayer, I do this to my friend with muskets. The muskets stand directly in front of the pikes, so that if charged, the pikes slaughter the attacker. Then I use my cavalry and ranged units to harass the enemy untill they decide to charge into my line, at which point my zweihanders countercharge after he hits my pikes.

I do prefer using obsolete spearmen to protect the flanks though, since pikes can't turn well at all.

[Bob the Insane]

I have a game as England (vanilla 1.2) that has lasted longer than any before. I have mostly turtled conquering only the heretical French and Milanese and takening Venice from the Venetians.

My trusted ally the scotish are fight the mongols to try and retain Denmark (I love the alternate history created in the this game) and I am assisting them when I am able.

Finally I have landed the first troops into the new world and captured Cuba...

My rebuilt armies for the late era are still being ironed out but the lack of pikes makes things interesting. I sent a combination of upgrades Armoured Swordsmen, Arquebusiers and Demi Lancers to the americas.

In Europe I am largely defensive and a large garrsion of armoured billmen and Arquebusiers (plus walls with cannon towers) have put pay to a number of mongol attacks in short order. In Italy I have a mercenary army with Arquebusiers, Pikemen, Free Companies and such which has been used mainly in sieges...

I was looking at putting together Arquebusier and Billman forces but the Armoured Swordsmen are basically superior and I have the castles and spare cash tp pump them out.

So we have Arquebusiers and Armoured Swordsmen, some cannon and heavy cavalry. It will be interesting to see how they fair against mongols as we push into central europe...

[Flavius Merobaudes]

As England, do you really prefer arquebusiers? I didn't play England that long, but from my impression I'd say retinue longbows are superior, aren't they? They don't kill that fast but longer range, stakes and better melee stats should make up for it.

@ Galapagos: So you use asymmetric cavalry tactics as well? If the enemy's cavalry is superior to mine, I try to lure them in shooting range of my gunmen. Works best if you lead them along the front of your main battleline.:hmg:
I use the Reiters to soften up and control the enemy's flanks with one unit on either side, mainly because I don't want their line to be longer than mine. I want them to march straight ahead into the killing zone. The remaining two Reiters go behind them and try to kill their general, and continue the bagging and shrinking of the enemy. In an ideal battle using fake charges and causing distortion amongst the enemy, there will be no melee at all.

Strange though, I have an all around balanced army but employ horse archer tactics in order to minimize losses. Due to their short range, Reiters need micromanagement. But 4 units is exactly what I can handle without too much stress. - I don't like to hit hit pause that often. Well, their firepower is enormous and 4 are enough to take out an entire army.

[Bob the Insane]

As England, do you really prefer arquebusiers? I didn't play England that long, but from my impression I'd say retinue longbows are superior, aren't they? They don't kill that fast but longer range, stakes and better melee stats should make up for it.

I have never let a campaign go on this long before so it is somewhat new ground. The arquebusiers seemed appropriate, pretty easy to make in my growing cities and they scare the whatsits out the enemy at short range...

Playing on huge unit size with 6 arquebusiers units across the front probably 5 deep they can generate a nasty rate of fire and stick them on a hill and they have good range.

[TeutonicKnight]

I'm playing an English game right now that has just reached gunpowder.

English Retinue Longbows >> Arqubusiers.

But Culverins rule them all. :)

[Flavius Merobaudes]

I've tested this a bit and it seems to that gunmen make a longer break after they've switch through all their ranks. That's 3 ranks - after 3 salvos, 4 ranks - after 4,... Probably they can do their shooting sequence only after every rank has reloaded.
They do it not matter what. It is not understandable, because only the last rank still has to reload, the others are ready to fire yet. So kind of a small bug for me.

[Ramses II CP]

I have to confess, I've never used pikes. They can't *move* dangit! My primary tactical advantage over the AI is in maneuvering, so I can't stand to use units that are terribly slow. So my late period tactics primarily involve drawing off the enemy cavalry, chewing up his infantry with my guns, and crushing his guns between wings of my own cavalry right in time to sweep up the remanants of his infantry with my cavalry.

I imagine mounted gunpowder units would give that idea trouble, but I've never seen an AI army with more than one of those in it.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Pikes can be the fastest infantry units on the battle field. Just put them off guard mode and off spearwall and they'll run like Carl Lewis.:turtle:
But remember to switch back to spearwall once they are in position.

[Fußball]

Interesting play Flavius. Try placing the the arquebusiers directly in front of the pikes and position your zweihänder behind the pikemen. In the event of a calvary charge your arquebusiers are almost sheltered by the pikes and any charge that even catches a man or two will catch pikes as well. Beside that, when ordering a missile unit to fall back, the men who are reloading or about to fire tend to continue their animation before actually performing the order.

Tschüß!
Erich

[Slaists]

Just take away pikes' swords and then you're able to use them historically: thick formation offensive and defensive.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

I always positioned my gunners in the range of my pikes first, melee inf behind. Did this in a campaign as Spain for example.

But I found something more sturdy was needed that could take the hits without too much losses - that's why Zweihänder between the pikes, gunners slightly in front of them. When DFKs charged into my ranks, my arquebusiers always had about 10% losses, Zweihänder have only 2%.

Pulling the gunners back is not so tricky at all. I deploy them three ranks deep and pull back in the shooting interval after three or six salvos. This happens to be exactly the right timing. You still need some space between you and the attacking unit. But you get a feeling for that really fast. The main effect of the gunfire when employed like that is not so much casualties but destroying their moral. My aim is to provoke an instant rout once they make contact with the tips of my pikes.

There's one ideal unit combo for this tactic, btw. When playing as Portugal, position Portuguese Arquebusiers in the pikes of your Aventuros. It doesn't get any better than this. It's a deploy and forget combo.:2thumbsup:

Confiscating their swords is not what I intend to do because it's not posible to use pikes in melee in any reasonable way. I tried to find out what makes them switch to swords that fast, but I didn't get any results.

[John_Longarrow]

Flavius Merobaudes

Have you tried putting JavCav right behind your pikes? I haven't, but I think that would do some nasty damage to armored swords closing with your guns.

[Lamprey]

Galapagos,

That's is a good tactic. It was developed by Frederick the Great of Prussia and used extensively during the 7 years' war. It's called the oblique order of battle. The idea was to overload one wing of the army at the expense of the other, then use the local numerical superiority to break through and roll up the enemy's line while your own weaker wing simply defended.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Jav cav behind the line seems to be a good idea, but I suppose any javelin infantry like Almughavars can do the job just as well. When bringing jinettes with me, I'd prefer to use them on high value targets at the beginning of the battle. Jav cav should be use offensive while jav inf can help hold the line. I always had javelins behind my phalanx in RTW.

The oblique infantry deployment as posted by Galapagos was indeed employed by the the Prussians in the Seven Years War. But the tactic itself is much older. For one famous example, Epaminondas, the strategos of Thebes, use it against the Spartans in the Battle of Leuctra. And I'd guess the general idea is much older, but no reports survived to our time.

[andrewt]

I played the Moors and just spammed Christian Guards, dismounted Christian Guards and Moor Cammel Gunners. It was a good late era combo. :laugh4:

[Furious Mental]

Is it just me or does England ALWAYS train zillions of arquebusiers and never one longbow unit after gunpwoder is invented?

[pike master]

my only advice is that you should place your cannon right in the middle of the battle line protected by pikemen. this will draw the enemy to attack your center to take out the cannon.

arquebusiers like most missile units should be places on the left and right front of the formation to cover against horse archers or shoot into the expected central attack from the flank.

once the battle closes i may withdraw my artillery units completely from the battle depending on the circumstances or have them leave their artillery and regroup behind the main body in case they might have to be used as a last ditch reserve.

one thing i have learned from the game mechanics is that if you back up zwehanders or other infantry with pikes when a powerful enemy charges the pikemen suffer the effects of the charge even though they are behind. i would use the pikemen forward and when the battle joins you can use your melee infantry to either march through the pikemen to take over the battle or swing them around the flanks.