View Full Version : Agincourt: Can this be simulated realistically
I was watching documentary on the battle of Agincourt. I far as I inderstand it was basically Longbow archers that played a major part in defeating the French with the aid of boggy terrain and wooden stakes placed in front of the archers.
I was just wonder if this up and coming game would be able to re-create all this. At the moment I picture if I placed all the units involved in this battle, the English archers would get stampled on, the french knights would reach their target before any real damaged would be felt by the archers. Are others factors simulated?
Your views please
[This message has been edited by StudUK (edited 07-22-2002).]
I agree with you. I've thought the same thing about Agincourt. The French will slaughter the English using the M:TW engine. Without stakes the only way to approximate them would be to have archers and spear troops mixed somehow. Hardly a decent way to do it. Maybe CA gave longbowmen big anti cav stats. Of course, if Henry had thought that the archers could defend themselves in melee against gendarmes a cheval he wouldn't have bothered with stakes to begin with.
My guess is that this battle can be much easier to implement than you expected.
Of the historical campaigns of WE/MI, pay attention to the last battle of Oda Nubugana: Nagashino.
The situation was quite similar: Oda's less disciplined army managed to stop the massive Takeda cavalry charge, with the help of natural and man-made obstacles:
Fifty meters in front of the main positions, the PALISADE was erected to provide protection to the gunner force of 3,000. Fifty meters in front of the palisade was the Rengogawa River.
And in the game, the PALISADE was implemented as the impassible obstacles such that Takeda cavalry had to stop and circle around to get to Oda muskets. This not only provides many choke points but also effectively cancels the momentum of cavalry charge.
I bet similar thing can be easily done for Agincourt.
Lastly, let's not forget that Agincourt was won, primarily due to the imcompetence of French generals. If they weren't so stupid, the result would have been MUCH MUCH different.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
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[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 07-22-2002).]
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
07-22-2002, 19:33
Well in one of the Historical campaign battles or historical battles that came with MI/WE Takeda cavalry was attacking the Oda line. Oda was behind somekind of stakes or fences which could be used as defence. But I don't know if they were passable or not.
If you could place stakes for your archers if your defending during your setup phase it would be very good. By stakes I mean impassable objects for cavalry, whereas infantry could pass right through them.
It would certainly add some flavour to the battles because the defender wouldn't always hide on the highest hill, but perhaps camp in the middle of a plain and wait behind the stakes.
At Agincourt am I right in thinking that the English were between two forests so the french knights had to charge straight at them? That would always be good. Forests that knights on horse can't get into because they are too dense.
All these little ideas would make the battle-mode a lot better and a lot more accurate I think.
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
07-22-2002, 19:35
sorry for 2nd post. Just wanted to point out that my post was written 3 minutes after Goth's so that's why we wrote the same kinda stuff. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Great minds think alike!
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
Quote Originally posted by Toda Nebuchadnezzar:
Great minds think alike!
[/QUOTE]
Shake hands http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Red Peasant
07-23-2002, 03:48
Most people ignore the fact that the English tactics were perfected before the French campaigns in long wars against the Scots. The 'V' shaped salients, flanked by dismounted men-at-arms were equally devastating against the Scottish pike 'schiltrons'. Although the stakes were a stout defense, their effect, in tandem with the powerful and withering arrow storm, is estimated to have had a psychological as well as physical effect in channelling the enemy down the flanks of the salients....a natural tendency to pursue a line of least resistance. However, this enabled the archers to pour in flanking fire from the sides of the salients. The fresh English men-at-arms and knights could then wade in at their hearts' content.
Therefore, the tactics were designed with an infantry enemy in mind, but proved irrestible when adapted against a knightly charge. And surely nobody can accuse the crafty and courageous Scots of being tactically obtuse?! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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"Gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo"
--Ovid
(The drop hollows the stone not by force but by dripping often)
Catiline
07-23-2002, 04:19
The mud also had rather a lot to do with Agincourt, the French advanced across recently ploughed ground which had been rained on. this slowed the advance and increased the time they spent in the killing zone for the longbows.
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Timeo hominem unius libri
Red Peasant
07-23-2002, 04:31
No doubt true Cat, but it can be argued that this can be offset by the state of the English 'army': disease and sickness riddled, half-starved, and exhausted after long marches through hostile territory. By TW criteria, certainly not an exemplary "band of brothers"! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
They were cornered like rats, but the arrogant French, contrary to what Sun Tsu teaches us, didn't even hold out the faintest illusion of escape. The rag-tag English army may have been a rabble, but they were a desperate rabble with sound tactics and a battle-winning weapon.
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"Gutta cavat lapidem non vi sed saepe cadendo"
--Ovid
(The drop hollows the stone not by force but by dripping often)
And they advanced piece meal instead of taking advantage of their superior number for flanking. (admitted that English flanks were partially protected by forest, but some french local lords did manage to attak English camp).
All in all, French generals behaved as if controlled by STW AI.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
http://www.grahamday.dial.pipex.com/rose-knight1.gif
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 07-22-2002).]
Emp. Conralius
07-23-2002, 05:12
According to CA, the Ai is so advanced that it was hard to get the French to be so stupid in the game's version of Agincourt.
well guys,
u do 2 mistakes...
1th. u go back in history and can just imagin the results, BUT not the way this results was made!
u know not much, just the history wich is sometimes like a phantasy roman....
maybe some guys was pribed....maybe there was luck....maybe a real good unit-leader at th rigth moment on the right place...what is with weather.... many factors...
2nd u think that this battle could replead on any other point and the result whould be the same.
no thats wrong!
...new try new luck http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
now u go to this game and "want" that the engine gives u the possibility to play the battle with exactly the same result...
i would say long time ago, they meet on a field moved on and charged, first some archer shooted some arrows, but till napoleon tactic wasnt the key, just more or much better units. but not the combination
an example would be WW2, u could see both sides (with russian all sides) had the same war-mashine....and the "tactic" was the same.... bombard...rush....stop...take the place of ur enemy....celebrate victory....turn guns in other direction ...wait of the same from the enemy....the enemy......bombard...rush....
unit wich hided again wasnt known...the combination of diff forcec was known but wasnt used in a good way.
i wont have a game wich make it possible to fight a battle and the result is like with think it was in history too.
if its possible, ho nice http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif but not important
its more important to find a way to have a balanced system with balanced untis...
example again: u realy think that in japan u could find some "Super-Ashis" LOL
this was the first unittype wich runs away...
and surely couldnt beat units like nd or naginata...
..plz excuse my englis, i hope its all understandable
koc
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Grey Wolves (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl/)
John Keegan's The Face of Battle pieces together a very nice description of Agincourt, along with Waterloo and the Somme.
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