Litvinenko case- 4 brits expelled from Russia

[HoreTore]

I'm quite surprised that this hasn't been brought up here, actually...

Anyway: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6906481.stm

Russia has expelled 4 british diplomats, as a response to getting their own diplomats expelled.

Any thoughts on what is happening? Or what will come? Is this just a casual thing, or is it the beginning of a major diplomatic situation?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm quite surprised that this hasn't been brought up here, actually...

Anyway: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6906481.stm

Russia has expelled 4 british diplomats, as a response to getting their own diplomats expelled.

Any thoughts on what is happening? Or what will come? Is this just a casual thing, or is it the beginning of a major diplomatic situation?

Of itself, it is no more than diplomatic tradition, with roots going back beyond the Cold War. I discover some of your spies (or one of your dips commits a felony in my country) and I PNG them. Shortly thereafter, you PNG an exactly equal number of similar type/level/function folks from my embassy to "reassert the balance." It only becomes an escalation if it is not a true quid pro quo. An example of this would be: USA PNG's 5th clerk from the left in the Russian embasssy (actually a spy, caught recruiting); Russia responds by PNG'ing the Deputy Ambassador, the Defense Attache, AND all 5 clerks. This doesn't happen much.

The rules on this were so well understood that there were stories, during the Cold War, of embassy personnel who began packing/doing paperwork to leave the moment they heard that someone had been PNG'd back home since they knew, based on their position in the embassy,that they were the "equivalent" who would be going home.

[Lorenzo_H]

Cold War II.

Britian might not be as big as Russia, but we'll show that bastard Putin who not to mess with.

[Samurai Waki]

A British Nuke Would Do as much damage as any others I suppose.... though it would be kind of funny of it didn't. :idea2: :clown:

[CrossLOPER]

Cold War II.

Britian might not be as big as Russia, but we'll show that bastard Putin who not to mess with.
Youstartedityoustartedit!

[FactionHeir]

Maybe the case is only used as cover for expulsion.
Would the brits send an agent of their's accused of murder inside Russia to Russia? Doubt it.
I read somewhere that Russia's constitution (as many other countries') forbids handing out one of their citizens to a foreign nation for judicial processes.

[naut]

...Russia's constitution...
Quoted for oxymoron.

[English assassin]

Would the brits send an agent of their's accused of murder inside Russia to Russia? Doubt it

Not that any of our chaps would ever do such a thing...:beam:

Seriously, we do have to show Putin that we can't have Russians killing Russians all over London. They should stick to Russia if that's what they want to do. A few weeks ago the police nabbed another hitman before taking a shot at Berezovsky at the Hilton. http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,,2129752,00.html Its all getting a bit silly.

[Ronin]

Not that any of our chaps would ever do such a thing...:beam:



that just reminded me of a Blackadder episode...



Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshal Haig is most anxious to
eliminate all these German spies.

Melchett: Filthy Hun weasels fighting their dirty underhand war!

Darling: And, fortunately, one of *our* spies--

Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes, risking life and limb for Blighty!


:laugh4:

[Ironside]

https://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8388/putin690gp5.jpg

Putin's scare propaganda. :book:

[Kralizec]

Maybe the case is only used as cover for expulsion.
Would the brits send an agent of their's accused of murder inside Russia to Russia? Doubt it.
I read somewhere that Russia's constitution (as many other countries') forbids handing out one of their citizens to a foreign nation for judicial processes.

So I've read, but also that this didn't stop them from extraditing some of their own citizens to other former Soviet countries.

[Adrian II]

Britian might not be as big as Russia, but we'll show that bastard Putin who not to mess with.Britain is too small to make a big deal out of anything these days. It has no extradition treaty with Russia, and the controversy comes at a low tide in European-Russian relations which complicates the issue no end.

But the matter is serious enough to warrant continuous attention and it wouldn't hurt if the EU took a stance on it as well. No foreign power should be allowed to get away with killing people on EU territory.

The matter of the suspect's extradition will probably only be solved when Putin is gone, God and internal circumstances in Russia helping, and Whitehall knows that. That is why it takes the slow approach. That is fine with me. This will probably drag on for years, but it will have to be solved, the Russians will eventually have to be more compliant, and the guilty party will have to brought to justice.

[Fragony]

Cold War 2 wouldn't exactly be in Russia's interest, especially since they are the biggest invester in Brittain nowadays. Just Putin having a me-too syndrome, such a bully!

[FactionHeir]

Britain is too small to make a big deal out of anything these days. It has no extradition treaty with Russia, and the controversy comes at a low tide in European-Russian relations which complicates the issue no end.

The matter of the suspect's extradition will probably only be solved when Putin is gone, God and internal circumstances in Russia helping, and Whitehall knows that. That is why it takes the slow approach. That is fine with me. This will probably drag on for years, but it will have to be solved, the Russians will eventually have to be more compliant, and the guilty party will have to brought to justice.

That's probably what we'd all like to think, but usually some people tend to get away because of politics and conflicts of interest.



But the matter is serious enough to warrant continuous attention and it wouldn't hurt if the EU took a stance on it as well. No foreign power should be allowed to get away with killing people on EU territory.


How about kidnapping and imprisonment? One could argue that to be just as bad.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's important to signal that Britain refuses to accept Putin's behaviour, and that we do not look kindly on political assassination. In general Russia has taken a nose dive over here, it wasn't really a good move on the part of the Kremlin.

Given that we are all meant to get along these days.

[Adrian II]

How about kidnapping and imprisonment? One could argue that to be just as bad.Not nearly. Kidnapping is not as bad as killing. Besides -- and some people will hate me for saying this -- in the case of the American renditions there are mitigating circumstances. The U.S. is our main ally and it is practising rendition with the (erroneous and clumsy, but not per se murderous) intention to fight terrorism. Whereas the Litvinenko murder was itself an act of terrorism, at least according to the British authorities.

[KafirChobee]

Adrian, i agree - right up to your qualifying it. You work for Newsweek?

Seriously, Putin needs to be pressed to reconform to the basic principles of democracy that we (the Western democracys' - rofl) thought Russia was attempting to achieve. Britain simply has the reason for calling Putin to account.

Face it, had it happened in America - King George would have proclaimed a jihad.

Then again, there are now 6 people in the Bush administration that are restricted from international travel. Some can't go to Italy, others Germany - etc. - so, by these standard - what's the big deal about killing someone that disagrees with you? Heck, we do it in American politics all the time. Though, I think the last Republican to be assassinated was Lincoln.
:candle:

[Brenus]

So, what do we have? A murderer, assumed one, being Russian, fled to his country. Scotland Yard wants him for interrogation and issued an extradition form, rejected by Russia. And England expelled 4 Russian Diplomats… Isn’t too much for a murder? There is something else under that…
:inquisitive:
If the guy was on the Russian Secret Services pay roll they will never give him anyway, or he is not so it should have been dealt in different way…

The Western Media are happy to go against Putin for that.
The New Cold War restored. Look at the used vocabulary in Newspapers…
Putin wants to go out of an International Treaty and it becomes the USSR’s Return of the Vengeance II. The fact that it was initiated by US rearmament is just put aside…

Putin is refusing the recognise the Independence of Kosovo (the fact it is against the Article No1 of UN –unchangeable recognised International Borders- even if it is U.S. officials who have repeatedly indicated that they would recognize Kosovo's independence even without the approval from the U.N. Security Council.).
The fact he played his natural resources against countries which prefer to go to West (game played by US against Cuba for years), Putin having restored Russian Pride against all the efforts done by our good boy Yelstin, all is this bad guy fault…:juggle2:

Can I remind you than, until the attack on New York, UK and USA refused to expelled to France plotters involved in a Muslim/GIA bombing campaign in the 198—in France. The official reason was “no confidence in a fair trial by the French Judiciary System”…:laugh4:
Well, I thing the Russians have good reason to doubt of a “fair” trial in UK in actually just reading the newspapers titles…:beam:

[HoreTore]

It's important to signal that Britain refuses to accept Putin's behaviour, and that we do not look kindly on political assassination.

You would have done the exact same things yourselves. Seriously, you need to stop being such hypocrites. Putin has yet to do anything(well, in this case heh..) you wouldn't have done yourself.

[Adrian II]

@ Brenus and HoreTore, I think your moral indifference is not the answer to this problem.

All states are guilty of crimes and abuses because human nature is prone to them and no state can guarantee its complete suppression - indeed, some states are built on them, either because government power is too strong or because, inversely, it is too weak to uphold some sort of public order.

But the insufficiency of governments gives us no license to walk away from a complicated political issue and admire our own clean hands in the way pacifists usually do. Or to argue that the legality of state actions is a luxury for peacetime, as Seamus often says, and admire our dirty hands for lack of principle.

And Brenus, I remember the excuses of the French establishment at the time of the 1985 bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, and they sounded surprisingly similar to yours: What's the big deal, don't we all do it?

[Brenus]

“And Brenus, I remember the excuses of the French establishment at the time of the 1985 bombing of the Rainbow Warrior, and they sounded surprisingly similar to yours: What's the big deal, don't we all do it?”
I do remember.
I think you misunderstand, or perhaps I was not explaining myself enough.
A murder is committed. A suspect has to be interrogated. A Russian being the suspect fled to his own country. Until now, the law was: A country in this position issues an order requesting his extradition, goes with Interpol for an International what ever name it is (I sometime watch FBI cases on National Geographic Channel), and after year of procedures with the local judges, police and politicians, they got their men/man/women/woman.
Now, you are telling me than to blame Putin is normal because Russia as a Jurisdiction refuses to hand over a suspect…:dizzy2:
But if Putin would have expelled this man, what is about separation between executive and jurisdictional powers?
The same Newspaper which blame Putin for being a potential dictator are now blaming him because he is not behaving like one. A good ukase, like under the Tsar, and all would be resolved…
It is not acceptable to kill an opponent. I do agree with that. The problem is here I don’t see the real menace Litvinenko represented for Putin in term of Political thingy. :dizzy2:

I went in Russia few years ago, and believe it or not, the Russians are happy with Putin. He put in jail (Siberia) the guys who under Yelstin plundered Russia. He gave back the USSR’s lost position to Russia. Prostitutes in Istanbul are not anymore Natashas (well, that I am not sure)…:beam:

And I still don’t understand why the UK expelled diplomats for a murder, except if the murderer was in Russian Secret Services. And if so, Russia won’t give him.
So it has to be clearly explained… And the next time the CIA will kidnap and torture (allegedly) a German citizen in Macedonia (FYROM), we know what Germany will have to do: to indict George W. Bush, because according to the new logic, he is responsible of this.

I haven’t a moral indifference; I am fed-up of the Variable Geometry Moral.
In fact, I want to know why when it is Russia/Putin involved, newspaper are re-igniting the good Cold War Rhetoric, and when it is Western Countries/Allies, all is to be with bad apples…

And it is the first time I am suspected to be a Pacifist, after 5 years as professional soldier (ok, long time ago…).:beam:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You would have done the exact same things yourselves. Seriously, you need to stop being such hypocrites. Putin has yet to do anything(well, in this case heh..) you wouldn't have done yourself.

We would have murdered an Expat who spoke out against the Labour government, and done so in such a way as to make it blindingly obvious it was us?

No, we wouldn't murder a politically difficult Civilian Expat on foriegn soil, and certainly not in that way. If that was the way Britain opperated why weren't IRA men in America turning up dead all the time in the 80's?

[Adrian II]

So it has to be clearly explained… And the next time the CIA will kidnap and torture (allegedly) a German citizen in Macedonia (FYROM), we know what Germany will have to do: to indict George W. Bush, because according to the new logic, he is responsible of this.Of course Vladimir Putin, the Russian executive power, is responsible for foreign relations including extraditions. And the Briths expulsion of the four 'diplomats' (the tacit understanding is that they are SVB/formerly KGB) is a response to the refusal to extradite Lugovoi, not in response to the murder itself.
And it is the first time I am suspected to be a Pacifist, after 5 years as professional soldier (ok, long time ago…).:beam:Yes, because you refuse to take sides, even reject any confrontation, over a matter of justice that has great political consequences. You are too good for this world, you are sick and tired of the moral confusion, the conflicting interests and views. Better to cut your losses and stay aloof...

[Brenus]

“Of course Vladimir Putin, the Russian executive power, is responsible for foreign relations including extraditions. And the Briths expulsion of the four 'diplomats' (the tacit understanding is that they are SVB/formerly KGB) is a response to the refusal to extradite Lugovoi, not in response to the murder itself”
So, if I follow you, France should have expelled few US and English diplomats when these two countries refused to expel persons involved in the terrorist bombing campaign… :sweatdrop:
It is a new kind of justice:
Somebody from your country killed somebody in my country and fled back in your country. Because you refuse to extradite him/her, I expel your diplomats, knowing you will do the same.
Will be exclusivity for Russia or will it be extended to others countries, and others crimes… No, because we have few cases with Canada …. :beam:

“You refuse to take sides”: I do take side, I do. Just as much as I refuse political murder (still to be proved, because I still don’t think Litvineneko was a danger for Putin political carrier which will be ended next year if Russian Constitution is not changed…), I refuse the game bad Putin/Russia and good UK/US/France etc. As you rightly reminded us, France did its bits not so long time ago, as US and UK.:shame:
I just want to know the rules and what is concealed to us…

[Seamus Fermanagh]

But the insufficiency of governments gives us no license to walk away from a complicated political issue and admire our own clean hands in the way pacifists usually do. Or to argue that the legality of state actions is a luxury for peacetime, as Seamus often says, and admire our dirty hands for lack of principle.

I do not recall having made just that argument -- though I will stipulate that many of the points I have made separately could be summarized that way, and that I do see some truth in its "luxury" status. I don't revel in it though; it may be a necessary evil, but cannot be a good.


Kafir:

Garfield and McKinley were both assassinated, and both were GOP. Attempts were made against FDR, Truman, Ford twice (:inquisitive: ), and Reagan. The only Democrat President to get killed was Kennedy. Presidential candidates have also been targeted, notably TR, R Kennedy, & Wallace.

[Papewaio]

You would have done the exact same things yourselves. Seriously, you need to stop being such hypocrites. Putin has yet to do anything(well, in this case heh..) you wouldn't have done yourself.

Every man and his dog criticises Howard, including his 2IC... so I don't think it is standard policy for the Australian government to spend potentially millions on rare isotopes popping off critics.

I think it is a sad stretch to assume every nation will kill critics. Most of the civilised ones will silence critics at the ballot box or on the sports field.

[Adrian II]

So, if I follow you, France should have expelled few US and English diplomats when these two countries refused to expel persons involved in the terrorist bombing campaign… :sweatdrop: You mean the 1995 Kelkal group bombings, right? Yes, I think Paris should have expelled British and American diplomats as a signal. The US and UK have been extremely irresponsible on these issues, incomprehensibly so. By the way London has only started extraditing such people after the July bombings, just as the US has understood the need for real cooperation (as opposed to hollow statements) only after 9/11 - and now they are overreacting and hitting in all the wrong directions. The field of international relations has never been a pretty sight.

The Litvinenko case is decidedly different though, in that Lugovoi is ex-KGB and there is a serious suspicion that the murder was instigated from within the Russian government. In the Kelkal case there was no such suspicion about the American and British governments.

[Sarmatian]

Why nobody makes a big deal about aproximately 30 people that are currently in Britain which Britain refuses to extradite to Russia to stand trial?

U.S. also won't extradite it's citizens to GB. I wonder if Britain is going to call on US to change it's constitution...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We have complained to the US, and continue to do so.

As to the thirty Russians in Britain, how many of them are accused of murder?

[Sarmatian]

We have complained to the US, and continue to do so.

As to the thirty Russians in Britain, how many of them are accused of murder?

And you expelled their diplomats when they refused to do so, right?

I didn't know that extradiction only works when person in question have commited murder. But, you live and learn, I guess

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And you expelled their diplomats when they refused to do so, right?

I didn't know that extradiction only works when person in question have commited murder. But, you live and learn, I guess

We don't have an etradition treaty with Russia, asking for the extradition of Litvinyenko's supposed murderer is a political move, not a legal one. Further, it's worth saying that if the Russian state murdered Litvinyeko then we have a hummanitarian duty not to extradite anyone to Russia.