The Bulgarian nurses and the Palestinian physician are free!

[Prince Cobra]

After eight years and a half the Bulgarian nurses and the physician from Palestina ( who has Bulgarian citizenship now) are finally free from captivity in Lybia. And although all the proofs showed they were not guilty, they needed almost a decade to be free and not without the decisive help of many countries (whole EU, USA and many others). Today they arrived with the wife of the French president Sarkuzy in Bulgaria. Finally, this nightmare is over ( I do hope they will recover from it) . For me it is still hard to believe it. One big thank you, people, both politicians and not who helped in one or another way this to happen!!!

:bow:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Indeed, it is excellent news. :balloon:

[Fragony]

This is excellent news indeed. Charges were too outragious to begin with, idiots.

[Peasant Phill]

The whole reason for their sentence was the fact that Libia needed a scapegoat for their own bad governing. After that they just wanted to get as much money from western countries as they could.

I'm glad the nurses and physician are safe now.

[HoreTore]

The whole reason for their sentence was the fact that Libia needed a scapegoat for their own bad governing. After that they just wanted to get as much money from western countries as they could.

I'm glad the nurses and physician are safe now.

Actually, they didn't want the standard cash, they wanted political cash.

[Peasant Phill]

Actually, they didn't want the standard cash, they wanted political cash.

What do you mean by political cash?
Do you mean that the government wanted the money for themselves rather than to give it to the families of the victims or do you mean that Libia wanted a political lever to demand other favors?

Like I said Libia used the medical staff as scapegoats. They needed some form of paiement in order to keep up the appearance that the medical staff was in fact guilty. So the Libian justice system wouldn't release the nurses and physician until someone paid. I agree that the Libian government wanted to be 'payed' in stead of the families of the victims but the western countries, and certainly not Bulgaria as far as I gathered, didn't want this. In order to keep the medical staff 'guilty' Libia had to accept the damage paiement to the families.

[Papewaio]

What do you mean by political cash?


As in deflecting criticism from their own poor health system and finding a scapegoat to blame. A dictatorship will always find someone else to pay for the tab, if they don't find someone else they tend to lose their dictatorship... and it is a lot more bloody then a ballot box.

[Peasant Phill]

As in deflecting criticism from their own poor health system and finding a scapegoat to blame. A dictatorship will always find someone else to pay for the tab, if they don't find someone else they tend to lose their dictatorship... and it is a lot more bloody then a ballot box.

Ah I see, thanks. I already knew that, hence my use of the term scapegoat. I just didn't know the term political cash itself.

[Cronos Impera]

Dude, the charges ware real!
People are sympathetic with the nurses only because the prosecutors ware Lybian and the defendants ware European. That's what happens when politics and prejudice get in the way of justice...crap like this happens.
Those fellows killed 57 innocent children and infected 300 others. If that isn't a capital crime than what is a capital crime.
AIDS doesn't depend on dirty hospitals to spread, it needs careless nurses and doctors who use one seringe for 400 children and think they can get away with it.AIDS spreads through blood and sexual fluids not dirty hospitals.
What you can get most from dirty hospitals is Hepatitas ( I know it because I've been in a contagios disease hospital).
The only real victims here are the 400 Lybian children with AIDS, the rrest are just opportunists.
The EU might just buy any Death Row's prisoner's life with 1 million per victim.

[Peasant Phill]

People are sympathetic with the nurses only because the prosecutors ware Lybian and the defendants ware European..

I wont deny that my immediate symphaty went out to the medical staff, together with the children I might add. It's true that at first glance I have more confidence in European nurses and doctors (1 doctor was Palestinian) rather than the Libian justice system. This, however, doesn't mean that I won't try to get an objective view on the story first before I make a comment on the situation.


Those fellows killed 57 innocent children and infected 300 others. If that isn't a capital crime than what is a capital crime.
AIDS doesn't depend on dirty hospitals to spread, it needs careless nurses and doctors who use one seringe for 400 children and think they can get away with it.AIDS spreads through blood and sexual fluids not dirty hospitals.
What you can get most from dirty hospitals is Hepatitas ( I know it because I've been in a contagios disease hospital).

Do you base your argument on the fact that you've been to a contagious disease hospital (as you put it)? Collect information about it first before accusing anyone!!!!!!

The imprisoned medical staff were condemned for deliberatly infecting 400 children with the HIV virus in order to discover a cure for AIDS. So no carelessness.
Furthermore they were kept imprisoned even after an investigation showed that conteminations were allready happening before the condemned staff worked there. So they weren't the cause


The only real victims here are the 400 Lybian children with AIDS, the rrest are just opportunists.
The EU might just buy any Death Row's prisoner's life with 1 million per victim.

I agree that the 400 hundred Lybian children are the biggest victims as their nightmare still continues and won't end happily. But I detest the fact that you chose to condemn those innocent people who just were in the wrong place with no other evidence than some basic knowledge about AIDS and the fact that you have been to a, as you put it, contagious disease hospital.

[Prince Cobra]

I can not say it better, Peasant Phill. Thank you! :bow:

As for Cronos Impera: note we talk about human beings and their fate ( I agree, this is a tragedy both for the Bulgarian nurses and the Palestinian physician and for the Lybian parents) and I really can not approve the way you are trying to attract attention. There are many ways to attract attention here in the Guild, not just claiming something because you want to be different!

[Agent Miles]

Bravo!

[HoreTore]

Ah I see, thanks. I already knew that, hence my use of the term scapegoat. I just didn't know the term political cash itself.

Ah, not what I meant. The term "political cash" is one I invented as I wrote it btw :laugh4:

According to an article in the paper here on the day when they were released(so the paper was printed before they were), Libya said to "some random official whose name I cannot remember of a EU country I cannot remember", that their term for releasing the prisoners was that Libya's relations with the EU would be "normalized on all levels". Ie. that we should forget all the things they've done in the past, and start fresh again.

[Peasant Phill]

Yep, I've read that to though I doubt that this will happen. Our minister for foreign affairs (Belgium is for the moment member of the UN security council) said that the normalization of relations could only be achieved when certain conditions are met and should certainly not go automatically.
I agree, as otherwise this would set a precedent to other countries that blackmailing the EU is OK. I believe other EU countries view this the same way.

[Cronos Impera]

Stehpen Asen, Orgah identity isn't as issue here. The issue here is 400 dieing or dead children.This case should heve been about justice, not EU vs. Islam or terrorist states blackmailing EU or stuff like this. Only an international inquiry into the case would have solved the problem, not money or politics.
The very way this case was solved by the EU makes me think the Bulgarian nurses ware far from innocent.

[Prince Cobra]

Stehpen Asen, Orgah identity isn't as issue here. The issue here is 400 dieing or dead children.This case should heve been about justice, not EU vs. Islam or terrorist states blackmailing EU or stuff like this. Only an international inquiry into the case would have solved the problem, not money or politics.
The very way this case was solved by the EU makes me think the Bulgarian nurses ware far from innocent.

I am lost for words... It seems you have not read anything from the written above. There were no real proofs against them and the trial continued 8 years and a half... And did E.U. have any other option? These people have shattered health and are psychologically ruined after everything they experienced. And is justice to kill innocent people!

I agree, it was a great tragedy for the families, too. But it was not the fault of the nurses and the Palestinian physician! They were scapegoats.

Here I will stop because it is absolutely useless to spoil the thread with arguments. For everyone who is objective, it is clear that they were innocent.

P.S. International inquiry... yes, according to all international experts, the nurses were not guilty.

[edyzmedieval]

Hmmm, I know the subject, but I don't know a thing.
Is there any proof that they had actually infected those children? I mean, they wouldnt want to do all that fuss for nothing, would it? (talking about Lybia)

[Peasant Phill]

International experts had proven that the AIDS infections began before the condemned nurses and physician were working there. So it is/was pretty clear that they are innocent.

[Odin]

Stehpen Asen, Orgah identity isn't as issue here. The issue here is 400 dieing or dead children.This case should heve been about justice, not EU vs. Islam or terrorist states blackmailing EU or stuff like this. Only an international inquiry into the case would have solved the problem, not money or politics.
The very way this case was solved by the EU makes me think the Bulgarian nurses ware far from innocent.

They were innocent of the charge "deliberate" infection, but were guilty of practices that resulted in the spread of HIV to other children.


"The high number of cases (around 450), and the period of time of the nosocomial infection (over three years) can be explained by both the high specific infectivity of this strain and certain incorrect practices used by the medical and nursing staff at that time. This assumption is also supported by the high percentage of infected nurses in the Al-Fateh Hospital (two nurses as opposed to a total number of 50 cases of infection in hospital workers all over the world after 20 years of HIV circulation). Alteration of the specific guidelines established to avoid nosocomial infections (not only for HIV but also for HCV), a large introduction of invasive procedures, the shortage of disposable materials leading to the re-use of injection material, are all possible reasons which may explain this massive nosocomial infection.

"No evidence has been found for a deliberated injection of HIV contaminated material (bioterrorism). Epidemiological stratification, according to admission time, of the data on seropositivity and results of molecular analysis are strongly against this possibility."

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_trial_in_Libya#The_WHO_Report_of_Dr._P.N._Shrestha_.281999.29)

Lybia sentenced them to death on the premise that it was a deliberate act, the evidence dosent support that end. If Lybia had taken another tact, something like the nurses didnt use good judgement and the result was the infections, they would have a great leg to stand on.

Lybia overreached for what appears to be international concessions and, in the end they win. Watch the news in the coming months for pending normailzation of relations between Lybia and the EU.

[Prince Cobra]

From the same source:

"For infections included in Categories A-B-C-D there is no evidence that correlate infections with the presence of the Bulgarian staff in the Al-Fateh Hospital "

Why do you think they are guilty? The whole problem was a result of the horrible condition of the system and esp. the lack of funds.

[Odin]

Why do you think they are guilty? The whole problem was a result of the horrible condition of the system and esp. the lack of funds.

I disagree that
The whole problem was the system and lack of funds. From the source
a large introduction of invasive procedures, the shortage of disposable materials leading to the re-use of injection material.

Now that might be from lack of funds or squallar but it also requires someone to enact the procedures. Reussing needles, even for the most noble cause, by a medical professional is tantamount to them sacraficing the sanctity of thier profession.

They should no better, and if they were in a situation where they had to make a decision on reuse of needles (and risking more illness) then thats unfortunate, but they still own some of the responsibility for the choice.

From all the data I have seen on this case, the government was not there holding guns to thier head demanding they inject others. They made a concious choice, and probably the right one too. Sadly choices sometimes have unintended consequences, and when your the one making the choice you have to live with it.

Now this whole case was rubbish because the charge was that they "knowingly" infected these children. Clearly they made an error in judgement and should have had some penalty (deported, fines???), but that didnt happen.

[edyzmedieval]

My time to rant after seeing the freed prisoners and hearing their declarations.


The Palestinian physician said "We were tortured and we were forced to sleep on our knees, in order to confess".

Rant time - How come they resisted so much time "sleeping on their knees"?

How come 2 nurses had freshly dyed hair? :inquisitive:

Why did Madame Sarkozy came to take the prisoners by herself? I am truly curious what political machination is this...

[Prince Cobra]

:sigh : :no: Odin, you have just sentenced to fines and deportation the people from the countries over the world, who are working in Lybia, including all of the Libyan doctors and nurses... The conditions are really poor there. This is all I can say on the topic.

edyz, the dyed hair... Just think, nobody wants his prisoners to look as martyrs. And there was a pressure for better conditions of life for the nurses.

Madam Sarkozy... there was no other way. When somebody is looking forward scapegoats, you can not expect objective trial. Actually, eight years and a half there was a trial, which was very slow, and it was far from fair one... Now these people are completely ruined and tell me this is fair. This case from the very beginning was a political one and it was not surprising a political solution was found.

[edyzmedieval]

edyz, the dyed hair... Just think, nobody wants his prisoners to look as martyrs.

Uhm, say that again? :shocked2:

[Prince Cobra]

Uhm, say that again? :shocked2:

My answer is not less weird than the question itself. :shocked2: You talk about dyed hair, I talk you that some women look older with not-dyed hair. Anyway, the question was stupid and so was the answer. I am happy you got it :beam:

Actually, I think everything was said. I doubt there would be more additional info and repeating something over and over again is quite useless. Argument aiming argument is quite useless. Anyway, I am happy the nurses and the physician are back... If you aren't, one less smile on your face. The loss is yours. Of course here we talk about bitter celebration since the tragedy in Lybia is a fact and innocent people also have their lives ruined spending 8 years and 1/2 in prison.

[Tribesman]

Of course here we talk about bitter celebration since the tragedy in Lybia is a fact and innocent people also have their lives ruined spending 8 years and 1/2 in prison.
__________________
Good point , I wonder if the :daisy:s running Gitmo will try to break Daffys record

[HoreTore]

Good point , I wonder if the :daisy:s running Gitmo will try to break Daffys record

Nononono... You're missing the important thing:

Brown people = guilty
White people = innocent

[Tribesman]

Nononono... You're missing the important thing:

Brown people = guilty
White people = innocent
nope that don't work .
its all about pressure and concesions, personally I would have thought the British/Dutch would have been up there in the spotlight rather than the French , but sometimes its good to stay in the shadows:yes:

[Ice]

Nononono... You're missing the important thing:

Brown people = guilty
White people = innocent

~:rolleyes:

[Odin]

Good point , I wonder if the :daisy:s running Gitmo will try to break Daffys record

:7jester:

[Tribesman]

So Odin do you support locking people for years just to make a domestic demonstration that the government is taking "action" or not ?
Simple question isn't it ?
The difference being that Daffy got most of what he wants out of it while shrub hasn't really got a clue what he wants out of it or how to achieve it.
Then again I wonder if the recent arms and trade deals may be part of an effort to persuade your "friends" that you are really their "friend" so could they please stop supporting those attacking you:laugh4:

[Odin]

So Odin do you support locking people for years just to make a domestic demonstration that the government is taking "action" or not ?
Simple question isn't it ?
The difference being that Daffy got most of what he wants out of it while shrub hasn't really got a clue what he wants out of it or how to achieve it.
Then again I wonder if the recent arms and trade deals may be part of an effort to persuade your "friends" that you are really their "friend" so could they please stop supporting those attacking you:laugh4:

:7jester:

[Tribesman]

Having a Pugwash moment are you then Odin:yes: