Buggy Papal Decrees and Legging it to Antioch.

[ForgotMyOldNick]

Playing early campaign Sicily, created army within time limit to send toward Antioch from Tunis on a Crusade; Army melted away even though I was heading directly to Antioch and not blocked or suprised as I moved slowly and carefully to avoid getting blocked by opposing army etc but full movement.

I lost a very good army, couldn't recruit anything from recently conquered Tunis even though around 60+ % Catholicised at the time ( My priests double as spies and convert the population before I move in to rule anyway), nor along Venetian held Tripoli, and my favourite General was sort of approaching Antioch by himself in the end via err..far east Tripoli, as I could not recruit anything to form an army. Much to my angst the crusade was over a turn later after I lost my entire army... Oo. N o t H a p p y. lol!

Also, a while after, Spain attacked me whilst in High standing with the Papal States and I was just about to launch a serious attack against the Moors. So I got a bit annoyed and turned my full military might onto Spain starting the next turn and was threatened to be excommunicated. I clicked the tick as I was fine with it, but I could not attack Spain even though I was happy to be excommunicated and clicked the tick?? ...I tried again and again... The Spanish of course besieged me left and center by the end of that turn... sigh*

This annoyed me so much I nearly went for the Pope and his choir boys sitting in Rome. But after these closely related incidents I thought what was the point? If I moved onto the Pope and had to click a tick to be excommunicated (and bugged? ((Or did I miss something?)) so it wouldn't happen anyway) and ai got the initiative attacking me first then what was the point?

So what am I missing?

If you have a fleet nearby, which there sort of was at Tunis... Must you use the fleet instead of land movement in a Crusade? Tunis to Antioch... straight forward march and no land bridges even... And if so how close does a fleet need to be to be factored in as a 'must use'.

Because the fleet was not at port etc but nearby..., this is the only thing I can think of as something I may have missed.


As for Papal Decrees... why threaten to excommunicate me when I have good standing and defending myself, and then can't attack them anyway ( could not click yes please, excommunicate me ) ... even after they attacked me... What's the go with this?


Thanks for any help. Hope someone gets a laugh out of it at least.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ach, Jimmy
Ye cannae leg it all the way tae Antioch from Tunis, because ye will nae be movin in the right direction unless yer on a boat. You would huv tae move south and then southeast into Tripoli, aye? Well that's not tha correct direction tae be movin in.

Tha computer will nae let you waste too much time. You have tae take a boat if you cannae move in close to a straight line to yer target.

I've drunk too much whiskey tae be answerin' questions like this.

_____________________________
View me Scottish thread :scotland:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=89076

[ForgotMyOldNick]

Hehe

I went the direct land route though from Tunis along the road, I don't understand why the game doesn't factor that in... I mean does it say
ok there is a fleet nearby, player must use that, ok here is the path
the player should take or lose his units etc...

Maybe there should be a 'crusade line of movement' graphic from the Crusade army to at least warn the player of the best path or something... Maybe passing over a nearby fleet if that is considered the best path instead of land for instance.

Does the AI punish you if a fleet is nearby but not at port and you
choose to go via land because the fleet has other duties to perform for you?

I mean are the positions of fleets relative to your Crusade army, especially if they are at port in the province your Crusade army originates from, factored in as to whether you are going to potentially lose troops?


Anyway, my day off and I'm off to the pub. I've traumatised myself enough already. Gonna have a whiskey in askpizzaguy's honour, he's got
some good posts that have given me some ideas.

The Papacy is facing an army of spear militia and trebuchets (From formerly Spanish held Leon, those traitors... muahahaha!!) when I get back. Ok, when I am sober.

[Askthepizzaguy]

There are usually mercenary boats to recruit. The only time there aren't is when you have recently recruited them all. They respawn fairly quickly though.

I mean, uh... ach git ye some mercenaries you son of an Englishman!


_______________
Bonjourrr ya cheese-eatin' surrender monkeys! :scotland:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsAU-gJEpjw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id2kzOzC4CM

[phonicsmonkey]

you have to travel a certain distance in a straight line, as the crow flies, towards the crusade target

the game does not factor in whether or not you have fleets available

[Guyus Germanicus]

Also Nick,

I believe the advisor - whatshername - mentions something about boating it to your crusade target. She doesn't say anything about the absolute straightness of your route, necessarily. Though she does warn you that if you dally or go indirectly to your target your men may desert. I think she does say something about that it's best to go by boat. That it's better or faster or some such.

Turn on your advisor, if you can stand all the chatter, to see how she advises. If you've played the game so much that the advisors don't come on anymore when you play the campaign game, go to the tutorial and simply enter the tutorial then exit. Then start/load a campaign game. The advisors should talk your ear off.

I can't speak to your other situation. Perhaps you could assassinate the Pope. Got any good cutthroats in your arsenal? :brakelamp:

[icek]

about this warning for offence on spain from pope, its normal on 1.2 that he give it after you attack catholic faction. if you wait and attack after those 5 or 7 turns he will let you act unless you start a real havoc and spain will be at the edge of total destruction.

[imnothere]

Copied from M2TWFAQ - extract - section 4.2


Originally Posted by TinCow
Whenever you are moving a crusade army, make sure that you do not have movement accelerated (space bar). Then click on your destination and CAREFULLY WATCH the path your army is walking along. The very instant you see any army or settlement along that route, immediately hit backspace. This will stop the army where it is. Then click on your destination again. The game will plot a new path that avoids the obstacle. Rinse, repeat every time you encounter another army or settlement.

Using this method, I was able to get an army from Caen all the way to Antioch without losing anyone to desertion and I got to the city before anyone else. I also highly recommend taking a spy along with the Crusade Army to aid in spotting.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72109

ditto for "excomm" - use ctrl-f4

i either get my pope in or else promote the current pope to heaven, via my useful assistant, at the point of a very sharp dagger.

i was thinking of getting my own church of england, unfortunately due to difficulty of controlling countries after being excommunicated, i quit. also after reading the difficulties of killing papist respawn hordes, i simply didnt even bother to try.

its a pity that the game didnt support the split in catholic/protestant fractions. i always wanted my own church!:gathering:

[Bob the Insane]

Why not use a boat? I always use boats from Italy...

Even playing as England I would walk from the shore of northern France to Italy and then grab a merc boat or two (there are reduced price ones for crusading armies), they will have you there in like 3 or 4 turns...

I have to admitt to the occasional disaster when running into Egyptian fleets (I even lost a game a Sicily once by having the whole royal family drowned by pirates)... :laugh4:

[Lord Godfrey]

Regarding the Pope's threat, I have found that the Pope normally asked both parties to cease hostilities. I comply, and when the other party continues to attack they are excommunicated. This gives me the go-ahead from the Pope to attack and improves my relationship with the Papal States.

[ForgotMyOldNick]

Great info guys thanks.

Pizzaguy I didn't jump on a merc Galley because there is only one for hire usually and didn't want to risk my finest army at the time. Don't know about others campaigns but eastern fleets in my campaigns are massive. Maybe I should have just recalled that nearby fleet and not have lost my entire army, but I really needed it to transport troops to where I was being besieged by Milan at Caligari, whatever it's called. :( Quick saving all the way now.

Yep very true Lord Godfrey, when they attacked me the next turn I managed to take Leon and sack it luckily before the Papacy declared cease hostilities again. But what annoys me is the fact I couldn't jump them first. I was quite happy to be excommunicated in order to have attacked the Spanish right there and then, (hey I had a good strat to eliminate the Moors with just one army! I was miffed they attacked me) but the game wouldn't accept the green tick in the excommunication option window. I was 'nearly' besieging a Spanish fortress at the time and I did have the movement to besiege it and build siege engines so...

Yeah I read that post before imnothere, I suppose I am having a bit of a whinge overall but it seems really odd to me that I was moving as directly as possible toward target (and slowly and carefully, due to Venice held Tripoli and any blocking army) and army was on the same continent as Antioch.

Guyus due to horrible economy I have two assassins and didn't start using them until recently, Training them up to get inquisitors etc and the odd annoying vassal proposing HRE princesses hehe. You know, the ones that ask EVERY turn.

I stuffed my early game economy and couldn't even raise the troops to defend some of my few settlements. Caligari changed hands so many times it was hilarious. Due to being besieged so much I couldn't further my economy properly in settlements that where towns and not castles etc. If I converted some of the other castles to towns I am sure the ai would have went for them too.

Also, on reflection being rewarded mailed knights for completing missions early in campaign sort of put me in a bad state economically. It was nice not spending the 700 florins and time to make them but their upkeep drained my early economy. I didn't disband them because they looked soo preeeetty, so I chucked them into the Crusade army, which subsequently melted away... as above.


Anyway thanks for the insights, I suppose in order to join a crusade from now on I will have to have a basic army AND a fleet dedicated to it initially, as per playing Sicily ( and if the army is near Tunis, not sitting pretty in eastern Italia ). Not very easy to do early in game though. I just hope that even with recently conquered Leon I can recover my economy to a point where I can make a massive fleet before the next crusade. The egyptians have a couple of massive fleets, I know that for sure. They keep circling Palermo like a shark.


As for the 'yes please, I want to be excommunicated', well... dunno about that. Is it a bug or was it to do with the faction standing with the papacy? Both Spain and I had high rating from memory.

After work tonight I am going to play on an assassination spree muhahaha... don't have the economy to raise 10 trebuchets and spear milita to frighten the papacy and some of the threads here suggest not doing it anyway. :(

[Guyus Germanicus]

Playing early campaign Sicily, created army within time limit to send toward Antioch from Tunis on a Crusade; Army melted away even though I was heading directly to Antioch and not blocked or suprised as I moved slowly and carefully to avoid getting blocked by opposing army etc but full movement.




Perhaps there is a bug. I recruited a Crusading army for England and sent it by boat down the coast thru Gibralter. I remembered to move it every turn. Even so, the game didn't like that short indirect leg of the journey. I lost men to desertion twice before my route straightened out in the Mediteranean. Perhaps CA wanted the game to work that way, but I kind of doubt it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I must emphasize that it is not just traveling in a route to the target, but a direct line-of-sight route. This means travelling by land where applicable, and by sea where applicable. Thankfully there are mercenary ships almost everywhere.

To avoid being lost at sea, end your turn on land, but always travel the maximum line of sight distance to the target. As the bird flies. Straight line. Shortest distance between two points.

The reason for this is so that there is a smaller window of oppurtunity to exploit the game's crusade/jihad function, to penalize your for any possibility of getting delayed or sidetracked by attacking non-crusade targets.

Some are aware of how ruthlessly I myself have exploited the crusade function even under such limitations. Still, it would seem to be an attempt at least to limit it. Unfair as it may seem to those legitimately trying to sail there as quickly as possible or march there, but end up being turned away by the geography, those are the breaks.

[Guyus Germanicus]

I must emphasize that it is not just traveling in a route to the target, but a direct line-of-sight route. This means travelling by land where applicable, and by sea where applicable. Thankfully there are mercenary ships almost everywhere.

To avoid being lost at sea, end your turn on land, but always travel the maximum line of sight distance to the target. As the bird flies. Straight line. Shortest distance between two points.

The reason for this is so that there is a smaller window of oppurtunity to exploit the game's crusade/jihad function, to penalize your for any possibility of getting delayed or sidetracked by attacking non-crusade targets.



And the game apparently enforces this ruthlessly. As my Crusading army got close to Antioch I was attacked by a huge Egyptian navy. I must have been outnumbered 3-1 or worse. (I had four cogs in the fleet.) Needless to say, my fleet ran in the opposite direction in retreat after the battle. I lost two ships completely, and the surviving two were severely depleted. As a result, I bled more deserters. I didn't think my fleet was going to make it to Antioch with my army, so I let my men out to shore in Ottoman territory just east if Iconium's port. The next turn I moved once again toward target but from land. I STILL bled deserters, apparently because the game thought I was wasting time not going 'directly' to target in my depleted fleet. pzzztt! to the game. :)

So I withdrew from the Crusade, released what pilgrims I had left, and my general and one spear unit is sitting in rebel territory just east of Antioch. The Pope called off the Crusade after I dropped out. I'm going to simply recruit mercs and take Antioch anyway.

[Askthepizzaguy]

And the game apparently enforces this ruthlessly. As my Crusading army got close to Antioch I was attacked by a huge Egyptian navy. I must have been outnumbered 3-1 or worse. (I had four cogs in the fleet.) Needless to say, my fleet ran in the opposite direction in retreat after the battle. I lost two ships completely, and the surviving two were severely depleted. As a result, I bled more deserters. I didn't think my fleet was going to make it to Antioch with my army, so I let my men out to shore in Ottoman territory just east if Iconium's port. The next turn I moved once again toward target but from land. I STILL bled deserters, apparently because the game thought I was wasting time not going 'directly' to target in my depleted fleet. pzzztt! to the game. :)

So I withdrew from the Crusade, released what pilgrims I had left, and my general and one spear unit is sitting in rebel territory just east of Antioch. The Pope called off the Crusade after I dropped out. I'm going to simply recruit mercs and take Antioch anyway.

You got that right about ruthlessness. It's pretty rough.

I don't have much trouble with deserters because I play the game they would have me play... I make sure I make significant progress towards the crusade target every turn. Usually by land so I can pick off rebel or noncatholic cities on the way. I would estimate that you have to travel at least 3/4ths of the maximum "straight line" distance to your target (by land) as possible in order to avoid desertion. I also recommend making landfall at the end of every turn that you move by sea to avoid the above fiasco.