Sápmi province south of Finland?

[Brynjolfr]

I've noticed that the province south of Finland (in EB) is named "Sápmi". How comes that? The sami people lived (and still lives) in northern Sweden, Norway, Finland and western Sibiria. Did the sami really have settlements south of Finland? Or was the province just named "Sápmi" by the romans, who may have thought that everyone in the northern Europe were sami?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1pmi_%28area%29


Edit: Added a source.

[I Am Herenow]

I'm afraid I can't answer your question, but I'm 99% sure that "Sápmi" isn't the Romans' name for the town. First off, it doesn't look like a Latin word (they didn't have accents and I can't think of any words that end in "i" in the nominative) and secondly, the EB team always uses the locals' names for their towns, not the more famous names (e.g. the Romans' name for the town) where they can help it.

[Kahju]

I've been wondering about the Sápmi province too. Sápmi is a Northern Saami word, and so is the one used in the settlement name. The weird thing about this is that while the Saami did inhabit parts of Southern Finland and Karelia in EB's timeframe, they were hardly the most significant of the peoples there. The Balto-Finnic tribes of present-day Estonia and Latvia were far more powerful, and the somewhat obscure Finnic peoples farther east even more so. Also, Sápmi is a modern Saami word, it wasn't used back in 272 BCE.

[Brynjolfr]

I've been wondering about the Sápmi province too. Sápmi is a Northern Saami word, and so is the one used in the settlement name. The weird thing about this is that while the Saami did inhabit parts of Southern Finland and Karelia in EB's timeframe, they were hardly the most significant of the peoples there. The Balto-Finnic tribes of present-day Estonia and Latvia were far more powerful, and the somewhat obscure Finnic peoples farther east even more so. Also, Sápmi is a modern Saami word, it wasn't used back in 272 BCE.


"Sápmi" is indeed a modern word. But what people could have used it during EB timeframe? A finno-ugric tribe?

[eadingas]

The word itself is indeed taken from a proto-saami language (it has the same form in its ancient version, apparently) however according to a linguistic theory presented here: http://www.sgr.fi/ct/ct51.html - in the period it may have been used in various forms by all peoples living in and around the area, as it was borrowed and re-borrowed by proto-saami, proto-finns, proto-baltic and even germanic people, as saami, haami, soomi, sabmi, sapmi etc.
Not having a finnish history expert on the team at the time of making the map, we kinda had to go with what we had. The province boundaries represent the general area of finnic-saamic languages and archeological cultures as far as I was aware of them, but any additional data is welcome.

[Kahju]

I see. I'm hardly an expert, but I do have certain familiarity with the subject and I'd be more than happy to help out the EB team, so here's what I know.

I think the best name for the province would be Sōme. That's the reconstructed Proto-Finnic root for a number of modern Finnic ethnonyms, including Suomi (Finland). Saami words Sápmi, Sabme etc are related to it, however, by 272 BCE Saami languages had already differentiated from Balto-Finnic languages and at this point, the Saami would have called themselves Sāmē. Thus, Sōme is a Balto-Finnic name. The name of the people of Sōme would be Sōmalaiset, respectively.

The name of the settlement - Asodát - is obviously a Saami word, but I don't speak any of the Saami languages, so I don't know what it means. I think the most sensible thing would be to give the settlement a Balto-Finnic name, such as Sōmeŋkylä (village of Sōme) or Sōmenlitna (town/fort of Sōme). Also, it would make sense to place the settlement on the northern coast of Estonia, for there was the centre of Balto-Finnic culture in EB's timeframe.

[eadingas]

I see. It seems my knowledge of the area was based on data a few centuries too early (late bronze age) - I was not aware things have changed that much by 3rd c. BC.

(Asodat, btw, is a proto-sami word for 'Home' - the only proto-sami word I could find that kinda fitted there)

AFAIK, the name changes are on hold right now, but I'll let the guys know to change these things as soon as they're able.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I don't know anything about the area or language, but I can say that indeed the map for EB1 has been frozen in these respects:
-changing names of provinces/cities
-changing locations of cities

Scripts and such really needed us to stop fidgeting with things so we locked those down.
If eadingas submits that as a better name change for the province, and if the province remained pretty much 'as-is' for EB2 on M2TW, then the name would get changed for that though. Can you post on it on the internal board, e? Some guys don't keep up with all the threads out here.

[eadingas]

Already did

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Thanks! I hadn't looked at the EB2 subforum this morning yet. :grin:

I expect we'll see that change in EB2 Kahju. We're not nearly as stubborn as some folks make us out to be. :laugh4:

[Kahju]

I expect we'll see that change in EB2 Kahju.



Spring/summer 2012? Oh well. Anyway, I'm glad to know they will be implemented.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We simply cannot continue to make piecemeal changes in province or city names, or in their locations. It's hard enough to keep the main files up to date, but the script files are a real pain - in addition to the spreadsheets and such that deal with recruitment and the recruitment map program and such. We are in clear agreement that those aspects of EB1's map are frozen at this point. But we are more than happy to take any new information (since about a month ago) into account for the map for M2TW's version of EB.

[artavazd]

Ive always been curiouse about the finnish language. They are similar to norwegians and swedes and Danes in appearance, but their language belongs in a totaly diffrent language group. Isnt the language related to Turkic languages? were the peolple who brought the finnic language to the area asiatic in appearance? Im curiouse to know. :beam:

[russia almighty]

Who actually knows . Migrations back then are so ****ed up it isn't even funny . I'm sure you've heard the whole thing about old Babylonian not being related to any language on Earth .

[Kahju]

Most experts agree that Finnish isn't related to Turkic languages. The Uralo-Altaic theory has been popular in some circles, but it is very much a minority view - even the relatedness between the supposed Altaic languages remains unproven.

In addition to its best known linguistic relatives, Estonian and Hungarian, Finnish is related to a number of languages that are spoken mostly in Russia, such as Mari, Komi and Selkup. Most of these languages will soon be extinct due to Russian persecution.

The first Uralic-speaking people in Finland may or may not have been "Asiatic" looking. It is important to remember that ethnicity and language aren't necessarily connected, and present-day Finns (and other Balto-Finnic speakers, for that matter) are indeed very "Nordic" in looks. Uralic languages have been spoken on the shores of the Baltic for at least some 4000 years, and the population base has remained pretty much unchanged. Genetically, Finns are no more "Asiatic" than other European peoples, and are only barely related to the speakers of Uralic languages in Central Russia - just as German and Armenian peoples are quite different in terms of ethnicity, despite both speaking an Indo-European language. Interestingly, Finns are genetically quite close to the Flemish people of Belgium.

[eadingas]

Well, from what I saw on my few trips to Finland, I'm quite sure I could tell a Finn apart from a Swede most of the times (unless they lived in the west ;)

[Lovejoy]

These sort of things i actually really intresting. Did you know that the Finnish and Japanese languages is (somewhat)related? There is actually some noticeable similarities. If I remember correctly both languages dont have any "plural forms"(but dont take my word for it) for example.

[Kahju]

Did you know that the Finnish and Japanese languages is (somewhat)related?


I didn't. Even though there are many outlandish "theories" about relatedness with Dravidan, Indo-European and Sumerian languages, I've never seen anyone propose a Japonic connection.



There is actually some noticeable similarities.


Phonologically, yes. Otherwise, no.



If I remember correctly both languages dont have any "plural forms" for example.


Finnish does have plurals.



(but dont take my word for it)


I won't.

[eadingas]

Perhaps you mean relation Finnish - Ainu? I've seen it mentioned quite a few times, though mostly in context of rebuking such theories ;)

[Kahju]

Well, people like to draw sketchy parallels between "exotic" languages and peoples, certain theory about the origin of Saami being a prime example. According to this theory, Saami people would be Basques who migrated to the shores of Lake Onega thousands of years ago. The professor (!) who proposed this theory had practically nothing to back it up, but he seemed to be very serious about it.

[Swordmaster]

Finns related to Flemings? I think Finns look way more Scandinavian than Flemish. Flemings are largely Germanic of origin, with perhaps some Celtic remnants. Where'd you got that from?

[Lovejoy]

Kahju: As I said, I wasnt sure about the plural-thingy. I know japanese dont have any "plural-forms" so I quessed that might be it. It was something, but I cant remember what.

I'm only telling you guys what I was teached in school, we actually had someone visiting our school for talking about this subject.

[blitzkrieg80]

I'm also thinking that whoever said what that they meant Ainu of Japan (white people of Hokaido- pretty interesting for Japan) who are known to be associated with Siberia and the steppe, in relation to the Finns, rather than Japanese which cannot be conclusively proven to be related to Altaic, nonetheless Uralic language.

I am wondering why the Æsti are totally disregarded in relationship to the location discussed on this thread? Tacitus' accounts seem to support that the Finns and Sami had not migrated yet to their present day locations near the Baltics, as well as the fact that the Aesti culture proves itself unique and cohesive enough to be noted very early and persists well past the Middle Ages, to present "Est"-onia whose population today may be of Uralic language family, but their identity/name is from the Aesti, most likely Proto-Baltic... please, nobody mention the British ~:) that was just an example of tactless Tacitus.. also, somehow Aesti is glossed as "East" although that has no support either.

[Kahju]

Swordmaster: I got it from a research by Cavalli-Sforza or from a research based on his work, can't remember which, and although Cavalli-Sforza has his flaws, I'd say he is pretty reliable.

Germanic and Celtic are linguistic, not ethnical terms. Finns are overall quite close to modern-day Germanic-speaking Europeans, although we can presume that other Balto-Finnic peoples such as Karelians, Livonians and Estonians would be the closest. Swedes aren't nearly as close to Finns as one might think, our jolly neighbours are in fact closer to the English than they are to us.

Lovejoy: I presume that the perceived similarities in question are actually features that are present in Indo-European languages, but absent in many others. Indo-European speakers - linguists, even - have this wonderful habit of presuming that the lack of grammatical gender or another such feature is somehow exceptional, even though many of the features of Indo-European languages are in fact quite rare in other languages - the lack of grammatical gender, for example, is more of a rule than it is an exception in world's languages.

Blitzkrieg: Aesti people were most likely Proto-Baltic, and their name was only applied to the Estonians after the viking age. I don't think Estonians actually called themselves by the name "eestlased" until the 19th century or so.

I'd be interested to know how Tacitus' mention of the Aesti contradicts the commonly accepted theory of the origin of Balto-Finnic peoples. I've never heard of that. Tacitus does mention a people he calls "Fenni", but his account on them seems entirely fictional - as you probably know, he isn't exactly the most reliable source.

[artavazd]

Yes Armenian and German are obviously diffrent ethnicities, but when we look at pre christian pagan cultures of Indo-european speaking people there are many many culutral similarities.

p.s There is no grammatical gender in Armenian either. (there is no He She)

[russia almighty]

... your ****ing lucky . Unless there is something else to brain **** you instead?

[eadingas]

As for Flemish connection - my best guess would be them Frisians getting around a lot.Their migrations are largely overlooked because for some reason they're not mentioned much in the sources, but they are known to be, for example, one of the four main germanic groups to have come to Britain, with Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Perhaps they have also influenced Flemish and Finnish backgrounds in the same way... although that is just a guess, and the connection may be much older.
From what I understand, genetically Finns are a very small and tight group, with not much diversity (that's what some Finns themselves told me) so that Flemish trait could come from pretty much anything and stay for a long time...

[Thaatu]

Did you know that the Finnish and Japanese languages is (somewhat)related? There is actually some noticeable similarities.
In Japanese my first name means 'autumn', and is a girl's name. :wall:

All I know is that bronze age Finns were culturally closer to Germanic than anything else. I discussed this once with a seasoned archeologist at the Finnish National Museum, who confirmed to me the similiarity of the burial sites in Finland and in "real Germania".

[Kahju]

In Japanese my first name means 'autumn', and is a girl's name. :wall:



That's not so bad. I knew a woman whose name meant "weird" in Japanese. The funny thing is that she learnt it the hard way.

[bovi]

"Odd" is a fairly common name in Norway. Its popularity is dwindling in these international times... The common Indian name of Manchit would mean human excrement in Norwegian, unless I've misunderstood its pronouncement.

[Thaatu]

Manchit does mean something in English too, unless I've misunderstood its pronouncement.

[Tellos Athenaios]

As for Flemish connection - my best guess would be them Frisians getting around a lot.Their migrations are largely overlooked because for some reason they're not mentioned much in the sources, but they are known to be, for example, one of the four main germanic groups to have come to Britain, with Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Perhaps they have also influenced Flemish and Finnish backgrounds in the same way... although that is just a guess, and the connection may be much older...

That is actually your worst guess. ~;) One of the reasons why languages spoken in Norway, Denmark, Sweden, The Netherlands and Brittain are so strikingly familar to a member of either ethnicity is the fact that all these area's have seen many Frisians passing by, or settling in the community. (Or just being the community.)

In any case: if you happen to speak Frisian, you'll be able to understand Danish, or Swedish without much trouble at all - even if it is your first encounter. The languages are that close.

[Swordmaster]

Swordmaster: I got it from a research by Cavalli-Sforza or from a research based on his work, can't remember which, and although Cavalli-Sforza has his flaws, I'd say he is pretty reliable.

Germanic and Celtic are linguistic, not ethnical terms. Finns are overall quite close to modern-day Germanic-speaking Europeans, although we can presume that other Balto-Finnic peoples such as Karelians, Livonians and Estonians would be the closest. Swedes aren't nearly as close to Finns as one might think, our jolly neighbours are in fact closer to the English than they are to us.

Well, let's first clear things up. What Flemings do you mean? Are they people of the old Duchy of Flanders, i.e. the current provinces West and East Flanders? Or are they the whole group of Dutch-speaking Belgians? I guess the former, since the latter couldn't possible be viewed as one people, ethnically speaking.

Even so, any of these are largely of distinct Germanic stock, and thus your Finno-Flemish link would suggest that the Finns are more closely related to the Germanic people in general than is usually expected.

[Kahju]

Uh, I really don't know much about the Flemish people. I just read that Germanic-speaking peoples in general, Flemings in particular, are genetically close to the Finnish people. Probably has something to do with both being largely of the aboriginal North European stock.

[Krusader]

For a Norwegian it's very hard to learn Finnish as the languages are very different. Although I had it easy as my mother is Finnish and she has spoken Finnish to me since I was born, so I speak both languages fluently.
But I've seen that vowels are pronounced differently. O & U is "flipped" where one would say U instead of O. And Y is very differently pronounced.
In addition how to write and grammar is also very different, just ask any Finn I try to write Finnish with. :grin:

But most fun for me, is that there is one word for both he & she in Finnish.

[Kahju]

But most fun for me, is that there is one word for both he & she in Finnish.



Yup, and in everyday speech and most dialects, there's one word for he, she and it - se. The he/she division can sometimes be really confusing, and it isn't unusual for me to accidentally use he for females.

[Thaatu]

...and it isn't unusual for me to accidentally use he for females.
You're not the only one... :sweatdrop:

[artavazd]

But most fun for me, is that there is one word for both he & she in Finnish


Same thing in Armenian. he/she = na but for it its = et

[Kahju]

Oh, this is something I forgot to mention. The "wonder" in the current Sápmi province, Sammallahdenmäki Graves or something, could be called Vanhat Hauðat instead. It simply means "old graves", but it's a lot more fitting than the present name.

[eadingas]

Would you find a translation for a name like "Graves of Ancestors" or "Barrows of Ancestors" ?

[dezzerx]

Well, let's first clear things up. What Flemings do you mean? Are they people of the old Duchy of Flanders, i.e. the current provinces West and East Flanders? Or are they the whole group of Dutch-speaking Belgians? I guess the former, since the latter couldn't possible be viewed as one people, ethnically speaking.

Even so, any of these are largely of distinct Germanic stock, and thus your Finno-Flemish link would suggest that the Finns are more closely related to the Germanic people in general than is usually expected.

And why could they not be viewed as one people? The Flemings, as in the moden Dutch speaking Belgians are descendants of the Frankish tribes and thus Germanic. Something scientist were quite sure of since we speak a Germanic language but has recently also been confimed by DNA research.

http://archeonet.nl/index.php?itemid=8670

Unfortunatly its only available in Dutch.

We (modern Flemings) descend from the Salian Franks and are of Germanic stock.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Iets preciezer lezen. Vlaanderen heeft wel het een en ander aan migratie ondergaan sinds dat de Belgen werden verdreven uit het huidige Belgie. ~;)

[dezzerx]

Er worden verschillende volkeren vermeld van de immigratie periode maar er staat volgens mij toch dat de Franken zich hier gesetteld hebben

"Tot de belangrijkste Germaanse volkeren behoorden de Franken, die in onze streken en het noorden van het latere Frankrijk hun kerngebied hadden. Vandaar ons gezamenlijk DNA-profiel."

"In het noorden van het huidige België vormden de Franken een meerderheid,..."

"De Germaanse stammen uit Midden-Europa verplaatsen zich naar het westen. Enerzijds worden ze in het oosten opgejaagd door steppevolkeren als de Hunnen, anderzijds emigreren ze vanwege economische redenen naar de rijke Romeinse gewesten."

Als ik er weer niet precies genoeg gelezen heb mag je me het stukje tekst wijzen (het is immers al laat en dan gebeuren er wel eens fouten ;) )



Ook dit nog van een andere bron:

"Hun oorspronkelijke nabijheid tot de zee blijkt uit de eerste historische berichten van de Franken. Eerst werden ze door de Romeinen omschreven als piraten. Dit veranderde toen de Saksen hen naar het zuiden het Romeinse gebied indreven. Hun geschiedenis werd opgetekend door Ammianus Marcellinus en Zosimus, die de Salische migratie naar het zuiden van het huidige Nederland en België beschreef. Tijdens de woelige tijden in het Romeinse Rijk van 260 na Chr. en de Germaanse doorbraak aan de Rijngrens trokken zij voor het eerst de Rijn over. Toen de Pax Romana weer hersteld was, stond de Romeinse keizer Constantius Chlorus in 297 de Saliërs toe om zich tussen de Batavieren in de Rijndelta te vestigen, waar zij al spoedig het gebied zouden overheersen. Het is onbekend of dit volk zich hiermee net als de Batavieren verplichten tot de Romeinse krijgsdienst, of dat hen een ander territorium werd aangeboden in de omgeving van de Zwarte Zee, maar gedurende de regering van Probus (276-282) werd over de zeevarende Franken bericht dat een grote groep in Oost Europa rebelleerde en een aantal schepen kaapten, om daarmee vervolgens via Griekenland, Sicilië en Gibraltar - zonder noemenswaardige verliezen - naar de Rijnmonding terug te keren, hoewel niet zonder overal een spoor van verwoesting achter te laten.[1]

De associatie van de Franken met de zee werd verbroken toen andere Germaanse stammen, vermoedelijk de Saksen, hen uit hun noordelijke woonplaatsen verdreven. De Saliërs ontvingen bescherming van de Romeinen en daarvoor in ruil werden zij - tezamen met de andere loyale bewoners uit met het Bataafse gebied die hier voor het laatst in de geschiedenis worden genoemd - door Constantius Gallus geronseld voor de Romeinse krijgsdienst. Echter, dit voorkwam niet dat de druk van de Germaanse stammen ten noorden van de Rijn ophield. Het waren vermoedelijk de Chamaven die de Saliërs ook uit het Bataafse gebied verdreven. De "onbeschaamde" vestiging van de Saliërs op Romeins territorium in het Belgische Toxandrië werd door de toekomstige Romeinse keizer Julianus de Afvallige beantwoord met een aanval. De Saliërs gaven zich in 358 op Romeinse voorwaarden aan hem over."



Ps: Nederlands of Vlaams?




Sorry for the Dutch and the off-topic :s

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Macht nichts. Ich bin sogar etwas überrascht dass ich es eigentlich fast vollständig verstehen kann, und ich bin kein Niederländer / Flame.

[dezzerx]

Hehe, indeed our languages seem to be mutually understandable :2thumbsup:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Nederlands.

Ik bedoelde meer: na de grote volksverhuizing was er ook nog migratie van - en naar Vlaanderen. Chinezen om maar een groep te noemen, en het lezen verwees ook niet naar je artikel. Eerder naar Swordmasters' opmerking.

[Swordmaster]

And why could they not be viewed as one people?

Ik ga geen straffe uitspraken doen rond die kwestie, want uiteindelijk hangt dat allemaal af hoe je 'volk' definieert. Al naargelang die definitie kun je de Belgen als één volk zien, of alleen de Vlamingen, of alleen de West-/Oost-Vlamingen, etc. Toen ik die eerdere opmerking maakte had ik in gedachte dat Vlamingen en Brabanders toch eeuwenlang in verschillende invloedsferen hadden gezeten, maar zoals gezegd kun je stellen dat dat niet ter zake doet.

PS: Vlaams

[I Am Herenow]

Iets preciezer lezen. Vlaanderen heeft wel het een en ander aan migratie ondergaan sinds dat de Belgen werden verdreven uit het huidige Belgie. ~;)


Er worden verschillende volkeren vermeld van de immigratie periode maar er staat volgens mij toch dat de Franken zich hier gesetteld hebben

"Tot de belangrijkste Germaanse volkeren behoorden de Franken, die in onze streken en het noorden van het latere Frankrijk hun kerngebied hadden. Vandaar ons gezamenlijk DNA-profiel."

"In het noorden van het huidige België vormden de Franken een meerderheid,..."

"De Germaanse stammen uit Midden-Europa verplaatsen zich naar het westen. Enerzijds worden ze in het oosten opgejaagd door steppevolkeren als de Hunnen, anderzijds emigreren ze vanwege economische redenen naar de rijke Romeinse gewesten."

Als ik er weer niet precies genoeg gelezen heb mag je me het stukje tekst wijzen (het is immers al laat en dan gebeuren er wel eens fouten ;) )



Ook dit nog van een andere bron:

"Hun oorspronkelijke nabijheid tot de zee blijkt uit de eerste historische berichten van de Franken. Eerst werden ze door de Romeinen omschreven als piraten. Dit veranderde toen de Saksen hen naar het zuiden het Romeinse gebied indreven. Hun geschiedenis werd opgetekend door Ammianus Marcellinus en Zosimus, die de Salische migratie naar het zuiden van het huidige Nederland en België beschreef. Tijdens de woelige tijden in het Romeinse Rijk van 260 na Chr. en de Germaanse doorbraak aan de Rijngrens trokken zij voor het eerst de Rijn over. Toen de Pax Romana weer hersteld was, stond de Romeinse keizer Constantius Chlorus in 297 de Saliërs toe om zich tussen de Batavieren in de Rijndelta te vestigen, waar zij al spoedig het gebied zouden overheersen. Het is onbekend of dit volk zich hiermee net als de Batavieren verplichten tot de Romeinse krijgsdienst, of dat hen een ander territorium werd aangeboden in de omgeving van de Zwarte Zee, maar gedurende de regering van Probus (276-282) werd over de zeevarende Franken bericht dat een grote groep in Oost Europa rebelleerde en een aantal schepen kaapten, om daarmee vervolgens via Griekenland, Sicilië en Gibraltar - zonder noemenswaardige verliezen - naar de Rijnmonding terug te keren, hoewel niet zonder overal een spoor van verwoesting achter te laten.[1]

De associatie van de Franken met de zee werd verbroken toen andere Germaanse stammen, vermoedelijk de Saksen, hen uit hun noordelijke woonplaatsen verdreven. De Saliërs ontvingen bescherming van de Romeinen en daarvoor in ruil werden zij - tezamen met de andere loyale bewoners uit met het Bataafse gebied die hier voor het laatst in de geschiedenis worden genoemd - door Constantius Gallus geronseld voor de Romeinse krijgsdienst. Echter, dit voorkwam niet dat de druk van de Germaanse stammen ten noorden van de Rijn ophield. Het waren vermoedelijk de Chamaven die de Saliërs ook uit het Bataafse gebied verdreven. De "onbeschaamde" vestiging van de Saliërs op Romeins territorium in het Belgische Toxandrië werd door de toekomstige Romeinse keizer Julianus de Afvallige beantwoord met een aanval. De Saliërs gaven zich in 358 op Romeinse voorwaarden aan hem over."



Ps: Nederlands of Vlaams?


Macht nichts. Ich bin sogar etwas überrascht dass ich es eigentlich fast vollständig verstehen kann, und ich bin kein Niederländer / Flame.


Nederlands.

Ik bedoelde meer: na de grote volksverhuizing was er ook nog migratie van - en naar Vlaanderen. Chinezen om maar een groep te noemen, en het lezen verwees ook niet naar je artikel. Eerder naar Swordmasters' opmerking.

I feel very left out :no:

[dezzerx]

Nederlands.

Ik bedoelde meer: na de grote volksverhuizing was er ook nog migratie van - en naar Vlaanderen. Chinezen om maar een groep te noemen, en het lezen verwees ook niet naar je artikel. Eerder naar Swordmasters' opmerking.

Ahzo, inderdaad dat is een feit. Maar de meeste Vlamingen zijn toch van Germaanse oorsprong, maar er zijn er natuurlijk ook van andere oorsprong die hier al geruime tijd wonen. Zoals bijvoorbeeld de Italiaanse Vlamingen in Limburg.

Mijn punt was enkel dat de Finnen, aangezien ze genetisch veel gemeen hebben met de meeste Vlamingen mss ook een Germaans volk kunnen zijn.


Ik ga geen straffe uitspraken doen rond die kwestie, want uiteindelijk hangt dat allemaal af hoe je 'volk' definieert. Al naargelang die definitie kun je de Belgen als één volk zien, of alleen de Vlamingen, of alleen de West-/Oost-Vlamingen, etc. Toen ik die eerdere opmerking maakte had ik in gedachte dat Vlamingen en Brabanders toch eeuwenlang in verschillende invloedsferen hadden gezeten, maar zoals gezegd kun je stellen dat dat niet ter zake doet.

PS: Vlaams

Met akkoord. Alles hangt af van defenitie. Maar in de huidige situatie (en in mijn mening) zou m'n geheel Belgisch Vlaanderen mss toch als een volk kunnen zien door de recente gezamelijk geschiedenis.

Ps: Again sorry for the off-topic and the Dutch :oops:

[Kahju]

Would you find a translation for a name like "Graves of Ancestors" or "Barrows of Ancestors" ?



Sure. Graves of the ancestors would be Vainaɣaðen Hauðat.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I feel very left out :no:

It was about whether or not the Flemish are to be viewed as one people, based on their ethnicity.

Oh and it turns out that: Swordmaster & dezzerx are Belgian (Flemish), and I am Dutch. The answer to who's Flemish and who's not is rather obvious, though: the Flemish have a peculliar knack for choosing their words in Dutch whereby they instantly reveal themselves as being Flemish. "Straffe", the location of "inderdaad" and "Ahzo" are distinctively Flemish touches. - That, and the way they pronounce the Dutch of course.

[dezzerx]

It was about whether or not the Flemish are to be viewed as one people, based on their ethnicity.

Oh and it turns out that: Swordmaster & dezzerx are Belgian (Flemish), and I am Dutch. The answer to who's Flemish and who's not is rather obvious, though: the Flemish have a peculliar knack for choosing their words in Dutch whereby they instantly reveal themselves as being Flemish. "Straffe", the location of "inderdaad" and "Ahzo" are distinctively Flemish touches. - That, and the way they pronounce the Dutch of course.

:beam: The saying "It's funny because it's true" comes to mind :clown:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Inderdaad / Exactly. :yes:

[Kahju]

I did some research and I've found a better name for the Sammallahdenmäki barrows than the one I suggested a while back, Vainaɣaðen Hauðat: Iku-Kääpät. It's better for two reasons: firstly, hauta means a grave, not a barrow, while kääppä is an archaic word that refers to either barrows or hills - unfortunately I didn't know of this word's existence until now. Secondly, Vainaɣaðen Hauðat is really quite clumsy as a name. It's more of a description than something people might have actually called those barrows back then.

In case someone is interested, Iku-Kääpät means "ever-barrows". However, it might be better translated as "honoured, ancient barrows".

I just hope the Flemish spam won't start again. I mention Flemings in one short sentence that is fairly irrelevant to the topic, and suddenly the whole thread is full of language that seems like German with unnaturally long vowels? That's just wrong.

[The_Mark]

The whole forum is neck-deep in Dutch.

Just wondering, how much more modern would käävät be? What I'm asking is.. the heck with it :idea2:

Niin, millä aikavälillä me suomea solkkaavat aloimme käyttää heikkoja konsonantteja taivutuksissamme? Ja yleensäkin, kuinka tarkkaan suomen kehitystä on tutkittu verrattuna esim. kelttiläisiin kieliin, joita itseäänkin on jo kutsuttu "hämäräksi paskaksi". Tuo käännös ei muuten tee oikeutta alkuperäiselle.

Ha! In your face, Dutch/Flemish/Belgians!

[Kahju]

Just wondering, how much more modern would käävät be? What I'm asking is.. the heck with it :idea2:


It wouldn't mean anything - the word in question is kääppä, not kääpä. In modern Finnish, Iku-Kääpät (which is Proto-Finnic) is...

Iku-Kääpät!

Useless trivia: the Finnish word for dwarf, kääpiö, comes from kääppä. It literally means someone from a barrow.




Niin, millä aikavälillä me suomea solkkaavat aloimme käyttää heikkoja konsonantteja taivutuksissamme? Ja yleensäkin, kuinka tarkkaan suomen kehitystä on tutkittu verrattuna esim. kelttiläisiin kieliin, joita itseäänkin on jo kutsuttu "hämäräksi paskaksi". Tuo käännös ei muuten tee oikeutta alkuperäiselle.


Astevaihtelun synnyn ajoituksesta ei ole yksimielisyyttä - toiset väittävät sen syntyneen vasta kantasuomalaisella ajalla tai sen jälkeen, toiset ajoittavat sen uralilaiseen kantakieleen, useimmat sinne välille. Harkkoreimpien teorioiden mukaan astevaihtelu olisi alun perin ulottunut jopa vokaaleihin!

Uralilaisen kielikunnan ja erityisesti itämerensuomalaisten kielten vaiheet sinänsä tunnetaan varsin hyvin - käsittääkseni uralilaiset kielet ovat indoeurooppalaisten kielten jälkeen maailman tutkitumpia. Itämerensuomen luontainen konservatiivisuus on tässä isoksi avuksi, onhan meillä suomessa parikin sanaa joiden äänneasu ei ole muuttunut lainkaan kuuteentuhanteen vuoteen.

[Cadwalader]

It's because they once lived all over the place in the cold north, but they've been driven back by various groups. They never were great warriors, though they did defend themselves if they had to.

The finns came later than the sami. and drove them out of Finland (actually "finn" originally meant sami, but I don't think they could tell the difference back then). The finns and sami fought bitterly over the centuries.

[Geoffrey S]

Niin, millä aikavälillä me suomea solkkaavat aloimme käyttää heikkoja konsonantteja taivutuksissamme? Ja yleensäkin, kuinka tarkkaan suomen kehitystä on tutkittu verrattuna esim. kelttiläisiin kieliin, joita itseäänkin on jo kutsuttu "hämäräksi paskaksi". Tuo käännös ei muuten tee oikeutta alkuperäiselle.
Gesundheit!

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ha! In your face, Dutch/Flemish/Belgians!

I'd like to remind you of what was said when Oleo joined the team.... Fear the proverbial Frisian "voetenwassen". :skull:

[Thaatu]

Sen mä sanon että jos "Iku-Kääpät" pääsee peliin, niin mä en voi enää koskaan EB:ttää ilman että mä repeilen jatkuvasti, mutta se on vaan sen takia kun mä vihaan suomenkieltä. Onneks mä oon niin hesalainen etten tiedä mikä kääpä tai barrow on... Se on sitte vähän hankalempi juttu oliko koko sanaa tossa muodossa 272 eaa, mutta täytyy sitä ny jotain laittaa. Ei se oo nii justiinsa.

Would Watchman like to say something too?

[Kagemusha]

Eikö pelkkä kalmisto tai Alinen ois parempi kun tuommoinen sana joka kuulostaa melko keinotekoiselta?

[Kahju]

It's because they once lived all over the place in the cold north, but they've been driven back by various groups. They never were great warriors, though they did defend themselves if they had to.

The finns came later than the sami. and drove them out of Finland (actually "finn" originally meant sami, but I don't think they could tell the difference back then). The finns and sami fought bitterly over the centuries.



That is a rather simplistic view. Studies on linguistics and demographics clearly rule out the "great migration theory" that was popular in early 20th century. Nowadays, the most commonly accepted theory is the one of divergence: when the southern branch of north-western Finno-Ugric speakers came into contact with the Indo-European proto-Balts and proto-Germans (or possibly proto-Indo-Europeans), they started to adopt more settled ways of life, including agriculture and animal husbandry, more organized forms of leadership and so on. Thus they slowly differed from the the proto-Saami people and formed the Balto-Finnic branch of Uralic languages.

Genetically, the Saami and Balto-Finnic peoples are mostly unrelated, and the orgin of Saami in particular is clouded in mystery. However, linguistic evidence clearly points out that in times long gone, the difference between (what would become) the Saami and Balto-Finnic peoples was insignificant at best.

The part about Saami originally inhabiting most of what is now northern Fennoscandia I can agree with. Actually, in EB's timeframe, the center of Saami culture would not have been in Lapland but in Olonets Karelia! And yes, Saami weren't exactly a warlike people, but they did kick some Finnish, Russian and Scandinavian arse every now and then - Akmeeli in particular was one hell of a warrior.

[Kahju]

Eikö pelkkä kalmisto tai Alinen ois parempi kun tuommoinen sana joka kuulostaa melko keinotekoiselta?


Let's keep the discussion in English - some people not proficient in Finnish might also have something to say.

I don't think kalmisto or alinen would be any better names, quite the contrary. Kalmisto is just a general word for any place of burial, and the exact meaning of the term alinen is completely dependant on the context. Remember, we are looking for a name that refers to the barrows in Sammallahdenmäki, not just any piles of rocks with human remains under them.

[Thaatu]

Plus, I don't think kalmisto is enough of an ancient word. It's even used in modern Finnish archeology. Although some of Finnish vocabulary is pretty ancient. For example the word Kuningas... Some Sweboz players may recognise it.

Alinen... Nope, don't know what that means.

[Kahju]

Plus, I don't think kalmisto is enough of an ancient word. It's even used in modern Finnish archeology.


Kalma is either a native Uralic word, a derivation of *kola (modern Finnish kuolla), or more likely a proto-Germanic loan from *skalman. On these grounds, the word kalmisto was probably used in proto-Finnic times, although I don't know whether the suffix -sto/-stö existed back then. Damned be the library of Lahti for having only one copy of Hakulinen's Suomen kielen rakenne ja kehitys in their storage.



Alinen... Nope, don't know what that means.


It simply means something that is under something.

[The_Mark]

1 barrow ['bærəυ] s 1 kottikärryt 2 (br) (katukaupustelijoiden käyttämät) myyntikärryt
2 barrow s arkeol [muinainen] hautakumpu, hautakiviröykkiö


when the southern branch of north-western Finno-Ugric speakers came into contact with the Indo-European proto-Balts and proto-Germans (or possibly proto-Indo-Europeans), they started to adopt more settled ways of life, including agriculture and animal husbandry, more organized forms of leadership and so on.
As proved by the loan words in Finnish, such as the above-mentioned kuningas and ruhtinas (druxtinaz, or however it was spelled).


Alinen... Nope, don't know what that means.
Well, obviously it comes from the preposition alla, under. Alamaailma, alinen, underworld, with an alternate meaning as e.g. alapuoli, the underside (of a table, eg.)


Astevaihtelun synnyn ajoituksesta ei ole yksimielisyyttä - toiset väittävät sen syntyneen vasta kantasuomalaisella ajalla tai sen jälkeen, toiset ajoittavat sen uralilaiseen kantakieleen, useimmat sinne välille. Harkkoreimpien teorioiden mukaan astevaihtelu olisi alun perin ulottunut jopa vokaaleihin!
Vocal gradation (is it gradation?), that is hardcore.


Plus, I don't think kalmisto is enough of an ancient word.
I don't recognize the root kalma from any Germanic loans, not sure about Russian but didn't spot it with a quick glance, so it's probably quite old. Could be a Baltic loan, which would already fit in with our timeline (at least it's not a far cry) or even older.

Edit: skalman? Interesting.

[Kahju]

Vocal gradation (is it gradation?), that is hardcore.



As I said, it's a rather wild theory, and almost certainly not a correct one. But being incorrect doesn't make it any less wild.

BTW, there's an additional point about the consonant gradation of the geminate *pp in proto-Finnic: the weak grade wasn't actually *p, but *Pp, thus, the consonant length was something between p and pp. I've understood that EB doesn't use linguist yumbah like Pp but tries to "de-jargonize" them, so I decided to ignore the Pp grade and use p instead. The other option would be to use pp as both the strong and weak grade, but that would be even more wrong.

[Cadwalader]

That is a rather simplistic view.

I thought I was being smart.
Damnit! :wall:

[Kagemusha]

Well how about Hiisi? The original meaning of the word was a holy cult place/ place of worship?

[Kahju]

Precisely, a place of worship. Not necessarily a place of burial (although these two were often intermingled) and certainly not specifically the barrows of Sammallahdenmäki.

[Thaatu]

...although I don't know whether the suffix -sto/-stö existed back then.
I'm no expert, but especially -sto just somehow doesn't sound very ancient, in the sense of two millennia.

[The_Mark]

Mm, I am under the assumption that suffixes are assimilated from other languages quite slowly, so it might well be quite old. That said, I don't have the slightest clue as to how old it is.

[HistoryProf]

Kahju:
I'm only telling you guys what I was teached in school, we actually had someone visiting our school for talking about this subject.

Well, there you have it.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I beg your pardon?