Question on bridges

[Kongamato]

The MTW bridge battles are making me wonder about the bridges themselves. Are they or are the not indestructible?

Obviously we will point our siege weapons at them to eradicate the advancing troops.

However, if the bridges are built like the castles, the invading army is going to have one heck of a time getting across once a Trebuchet destroys it.

The only way to keep the bridge intact and still be able to use our siege weapons is to either make it indestructible or untargetable.

How do you figure CA will handle this?

[Stephen Hummell]

I doubt that destroying a bridge is part of the game since we've heard nothing of it.

So no destroying bridges.

[Emp. Conralius]

yep...

[Vanya]

GAH!

It would suck if you could do that. I can see it already...

[MagyarKhan]: Lets join this battle and teach that newbie a lesson on hosting river battles.
[kocmoc]: Yeah!
[MagyarKhan and Kocmoc join game, pick armies and setup. Then game starts... its a 2v1, with both ganging up on the defender...]
[Defender Pig-Dog]: GAH!
[Defender took 10 cannon and 6 archers! He targets the bridge and utterly destroys it before the attackers can reach it thanks to 10 cannons targetting it!]
[kocmos]: Is that a TIMER I see?!?
[MagyarKhan]: GAH! Yes! And its set to 5 minutes!
[Defender Pig-Dog]: Hahahahaaa! You LOSE! I'm better than you! Neener neener neener!
[Game ends with attackers eating cannon balls staring at the unreachable defenders while they camp lazily on their side of the river.]
[Back in the foyer...]
[Defender Pig-Dog]: I AM THE BEST! I BEAT MAGY AND KOC! WOOHOO!
[kocmoc]: I won't say it!
[MagyarKhan]: Lets jot this Pig-Dog's name down in GWIS...
[Krast]: *Opens coffin
[Krast]: *Creeps out of coffin
[Krast]: GAH!
[Defender Pig-Dog]: GAH! Join my game! Lotsa FUN FUN FUN!
[Krast]: GAH! Krast take Pig-Dog's head! GAH!
[MagyarKhan]: Krast, baby... that guy is a c******!
[Krast]: GAH! No way!
[kocmoc]: He's a bridge camper with 10 cannons and a 5 minute timer.
[Krast]: Sad
[Vanya]: GAH!
[Vanya joins Pig-Dogs game. Vanya takes 16 kataphraktoi and chooses heavy rain. The enemy is pissed! His cannons wont fire in the rain! Vanya's armored kats charge in wedgies across the river and slaughter all of Pig-Dog's hapless archers in record time... leaving him a whole minute to laugh it up.]
[Defender Pig-Dog]: You bamboozled me! Thats not FAIR! [weeps]
[Vanya]: GAH! Cut Pig-Dog's head off! GAH!
[The room erupts in a standing ovation as Pig-Dog scurries out of the room in shame of his ignominious defeat...]

GAH!

[NARF]

I am impressed

[Kongamato]

Soooo, it looks like the defender is going to have to blast the bridge with the siege weapons and maintain a steady rapid fire, or risk having fast cav get across. The defender must remember that his men might get demoralized by the cannon fire that lands near them. It could spell doom for the defender, as it might make his units rout, leaving the bridge open for passage!

[Stephen Hummell]

[Steve joins the battle with all his Ghulam body guards and charges with all his might and sends Vanyas army in disaray and captures 2000 of them and decides to put them all to the sword.]
[Vanya]GAH!!

[czaralex]

Even if the bridge itself is indistructable, it will be way to easy for the defender on river maps, if CA keeps the one bridge per river system that I so hated in STW. Just put a line of billmen/pikes/spearmen by the end of the bridge and fire your artilary at the bridge, while the helpless knights try to cross the bridge to get to your troops. They will be lucky to get half their troops across. Especially because the seige weapons get more accurate the longer they shoot. How is it then possible to win a battle like this?

[LittleGrizzly]

[AggonyGrizzly] Gah! cuts heads off! Gah!


how is it possible well
take more seige weapons than the enemy and win the seige battle http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Kongamato]

Alex, to balance the siege weapons assaulting the bridge we can have it so that the units protecting the bridge can be blasted by your own cannons or routed by the misfirings of their siege weaponry. I do know that it is going to be hard to stop a mechanized bridge defender, but then again, if you want to HIT the bridge at a safe distance, then you had better take a lot of siege weapons or use the smaller, more accurate ones.

I wonder if water will splash when hit by a siege projectile, or if the projectile will bounce off of it due to a bug or if the rock will just disappear.

[czaralex]

I see what you are guys are saying, but think about this. What if I have an army of 10(units) Lancers, two siege cannons, and 4 longbowmen. While the enemy has 3 catapults, 4 small cannons, and 2 siege cannons, and 6 pikemen. What if both my cannons blow up, and the enemy gets lucky and his heavy weaponry doesn't. That means that my mighty army will lose anyway, that doesn't seem fair, does it?

[Kongamato]

Alex, you are correct on the issue of fairness. Fairness and realism are not related. External variables, such as exploding cannons and weather effectively add to the medieval atmosphere of the game. Sudden hindrances and bad luck encourage adaptive thinking, a key component of an able commander. A way to solve the problem:

Remember that he is defending, and that he carries many siege weapons. Also, the bulk of his pikemen need to be placed in one certain spot to be effective. Remember that he spent a considerable amount of time setting up this defense, so he will be less likely to alter it during battle. These Pikemen are in the range of your Longbowmen. If they are not, the Lancers should be able to get past the siege fire and maneuver past the Pikemen. Remember that only some of the siege weapons can be moved, and the enemy will not be pleased moving them. In most circumstances the Pikemen will be guarding the bridge. Use your Longbowmen to soften the Pikemen up as much as you can. If this game is accurate, the Longbow will have the same range as a Trebuchet. Expend all of your arrows- not at maximum range, but the closest safe distance to maximize your kills. Now, the Longbowmen can be used as peasant cannon fodder. Send them into melee against the Pikemen or the nearest siege weapon crew. With luck, the Pikemen will be soft enough to defeat, and your Longbowmen will have absorbed plenty of siege weapon fire. Do not worry, as they are engaged in melee with the Pikemen, who have the same chances of getting hit as the Longbowmen do. Once the Pikemen rout, send in the Lancers. There will be too many Lancers to destroy with the siege weapons before they reach the engines themselves.

[chilliwilli]

Also don't worry about the one bridge thing. Take a gander at this screeny. It clearly shows 3 bridges on the mini map.
http://www.fourbelowzero.com/games/strategy/mtw/images/mongols.jpg

[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 07-27-2002).]

[Stephen Hummell]

Where is vanya i'd imagine he'd say somethin about my post by now?

[vyanvotts]

bridges in shogun wernt really too good, they were way to narrow in my opinion

[Kraellin]

i hope they fixed the 3 bridge bug that existed (exists) in stw/we/mi. one of the bridges there was always unusable, for the most part.

K.


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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[Vanya]

[Vanya]: GAH!
[Vanya grabs Stephen Hummels' head from the reanimator dish. Pokes it in the eye. It wakes up...]
[Vanya]: GAH! You were dreaming again!
[Hummel]: GAH! Yup! I dreamed I had creamed your army and taken 2000 prisoner!
[Vanya]: LOL
[Hummel]: And that I had taken YOUR head!
[Vanya]: LOL
[Hummel]: And that...
[Vanya]: Listen. Just because I took your head some while back and reanimated it and keep it in my lair to amuse me doesn't mean I won't treat you like that disrespectful, foul-mouthed parrot I used to have... See his little bird head over there on the fireplace? You want to JOIN him?
[Hummel]: Uh... no suh! Forgive me suh!
[Vanya]: GAH!
[Hummel]: Tsankiu verimush for your generosity and mercy!
[Vanya]: You're lucky your head doesn't dangle from my necklace!
[Hummel]: GAH! You are too kind! GAH!
[Vanya]: [Grins... somewhere...] He he.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif




[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 07-29-2002).]

[Sjakihata]

Vanya...

Let us say he had catapults and trebuchets.. they'll fire in rain http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[Stephen Hummell]

LOL

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Sjakihata Akechi:
Vanya...

Let us say he had catapults and trebuchets.. they'll fire in rain http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif[/QUOTE]

GAH! Rate of fire too slow! Kats simply commence their charge the moment the first ball hits. By the time they launch the next one, you'll be all over them like white on rice.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

GAH!

[Stephen Hummell]

Vanya, Kats are the slowest cav. in the game and 15 catapults can do a lot of damage.

[DarknScaly]

any single unit of light cavalry will do for any unprotected artillery - they simply cant hit them if you keep them moving at a gallop.

With wider bridge and better pathing you just gallop horses across bridges now - they dont even pause really.

Other thing to bear in mind with all of the seige artillery is that its the "line of fire" where they inflict lots of damage - not the place of fire.

Most are incapable of hitting a stationary spot accurately - but the fact that the ammo bounces onwards mean they CAN paint a path of destruction.

Thus if your artilery is firing along the advance of a collumn they are deadly - if you use them firing across a flank also (maybe) - but angled across a line of march they are pretty inefficient... 15 of em are bound to do some damage but as I say - just race 1 unit of light cavalry up there and you'll get inside their minimum range and they are all toasty.


All artillery are really guarenteed to be "good" for is taking down walls - big,tall,wide,stationary objects. Every other time you use them its a gamble, may work, may not - afterall one big catapult stone on the head of the opposing general and....

[Loras]

yeah, i made a mod where your troops are defending a hill supported by three catapults, and it's really hard to hit oncoming royal knights, even if they're just walking, you'll hit the very back of their formation or not at all. if they're charging, forget it. against units of 200 infantry, they do pretty well, i could take them down to around 70 before they get to me. the whole bouncing boulder of death is awesome, if effectively extends the range of the catapult. attack some crappy infantry up front, and the ball goes bouncing right through about 3 or 4 other units, it's a nice way to take out that general that thinks he's safe out of range. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif So basically, it looks like catapults (and i'm assuming siege weapons in general) are only good against either non-moving, or slow moving troops, and can be horribly slaughtered by most any cavalry.

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-All knowledge is worth having-

[Kongamato]

Sir, when you say catapults do you mean the small, anti-personnel siege engines like AOE2's onager?

[Nelson]

I'm concerned that the engines are more far more useful in the game than they ever were in reality. If they can smash infantry formations as they approach then we will be tempted to use them in the field far more often than anyone did 700 years ago.

IMO, not good.

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CONITOERGOVINCO

[Loras]

the catapultcrew catapults, they do well against anything slow in close formation, anything that moves fast, or uses a spread formation shouldn't have too much trouble. the comp seems to have trouble handling them, since it'll just march all it's troops right up the firing line, against a human opponent...i don't think it'd be worth the slot, i'd rather have another group of infantry. this is just the catapults in the demo though, i wonder how much more powerful gun powder siege weapons will be?

------------------
-All knowledge is worth having-

[Funky Phantom]

In theory gun powder units would be devastating against tight infantry groups, they would rip right through the formations killing whole rows of people :\

Siege weapons wont be invincible however and their use of the battlefield can be easily counter-acted through the use of cavalry, also remember they have small crews to operate them and these crews are very much vulnerable to arrows...

[DarknScaly]

P v AI im not concerned about it - it'l play a much greater (or lesser) role in PvP though - depending on how accomodating your opponent is.

There's a lot of variety in the gunpowder weapons by type and faction also - some are terribly slow firing (Seige Cannons) and awesome aggainst walls but entirely useless against moving troops...other like the serpentine are pretty useless against walls but ok against troops as it fires reasoanbly quickly.

Either way even foot troops are only seriously vulnerable if you stand around waving at the cannoneers.

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by DarknScaly:
...in PvP though...[/QUOTE]

GAH!

You're starting to sound like Dick Vitale!

No PvPers here, baby!

GAH!