View Full Version : What should the penalty be for a woman who has an illegal abortion?
Goofball
07-30-2007, 23:01
For those of you who believe abortion should be illegal, what do you believe the punishment for the woman should be if she has one?
I'd say the doctor goes to jail. Just like trainers of dangerous dogs, drug sellers and sellers of illegal wares should go to jail and not their customers.
It's a lot easier since usually the suppliers are less in number than the customers and offering illegal services is worse than using them, this follows from the num,bers thing since one guy who offers an illegal service has several customers and thus takes part in more illegal acts than a single customer.
Don Corleone
07-30-2007, 23:52
I notice that you cleverly avoided the topic of what an "illegal abortion" ought to be.
To me, it's beyond 24 weeks, where the physical health of the mother is not a concern. Even so, I don't think punishing the mother is the right answer. The right way to tackle that particular problem is dry up supply... toss any doctors performing these sorts of procedures in jail and yank their licenses. The best way to deal with the women who engaged in such a practice is mandatory education, let them know in detail exactly what they did, and whether their doctor chose to tell them or not, their baby was technically viable.
The death penalty.
Premeditated murder should come with the maximum penalty allowed by law. Since I support capital punishement for other premeditated murder, I would be a hypocrite if I didnt advocate for it in this scenario as well.
Strike For The South
07-31-2007, 00:38
The death penalty.
Premeditated murder should come with the maximum penalty allowed by law. Since I support capital punishement for other premeditated murder, I would be a hypocrite if I didnt advocate for it in this scenario as well.
aye. My whole belif is the baby is a person
Where's gah?
As always, it depends on a variety of factors. It's like asking someone to spell out an exact punishment for "someone who kills another person".
Somebody Else
07-31-2007, 01:00
As I think abortion should be permissable up to 18 years after conception, I don't think I should vote on this one...
Zaknafien
07-31-2007, 01:18
Wow. Are you guys serious??
Tribesman
07-31-2007, 02:27
For those of you who believe abortion should be illegal, what do you believe the punishment for the woman should be if she has one?
Hmmmmmm....tricky one , so if say for example a young woman is possibly having a baby that is developing without a brain thingy that may or may not go full term but if it goes full term will die at birth ,and carrying on the pregnancy may threaten the mothers life , but abortion is illegal then of course........
The death penalty.
Yeah Odin nice and simple innit:dizzy2:
Hey what the hell , its not like we don't have enough abortion is illegal crap over here to have it going through the courtsfairly regularly , lets stick to Odins "death penalty"....then again it being a civilised country we don't only have no abortion we don't have no death penalty either
Papewaio
07-31-2007, 02:31
When a panel of women decide if and when I should get a vasectomy I'll decide if and when they should get an abortion.
Marshal Murat
07-31-2007, 03:00
I don't think that cutting the doctors out of the picture is the right thing to do.
If you 'dry up the supply' then the women might resort to more desperate means to kill the child they are unable or unwilling to support, and might kill them in the process.
While the car has killed the pedestrian, the drunk driver is held responsible. You don't take away all the cars, you take away all the drunk drivers. The mother should be punished for pursuing the avenue and realize that killing a baby has serious consequences.
Why abort when the boy can be adopted?
Seamus Fermanagh
07-31-2007, 03:24
When a panel of women decide if and when I should get a vasectomy I'll decide if and when they should get an abortion.
My guess would be that the "panel" would have one member and you'll do as your directed. :cheesy:
Hope you're staying on Wasabe-san's good side.
Crazed Rabbit
07-31-2007, 05:02
Counseling for the women, long jail terms for the doctors.
That's a general answer for a general question.
CR
Strike For The South
07-31-2007, 06:37
Wow. Are you guys serious??
100% in my idealistc world. however my gentler side usually gets the best of me.
CountArach
07-31-2007, 06:40
Gah! Just legalise the damn thing!
Alexander the Pretty Good
07-31-2007, 07:24
Um, too late? You can kill the kid minutes before he's born in the US of A. :wall:
Voted for jailing the Doc.
I am against abortion but there can be good reasons, doctor should lose his license though. No jail for either of them. If doctor has no license, then he should go to jail, for how long, I don't know.
The death penalty.
Premeditated murder should come with the maximum penalty allowed by law. Since I support capital punishement for other premeditated murder, I would be a hypocrite if I didnt advocate for it in this scenario as well.
I agree.
I don't think that cutting the doctors out of the picture is the right thing to do.
If you 'dry up the supply' then the women might resort to more desperate means to kill the child they are unable or unwilling to support, and might kill them in the process.
While the car has killed the pedestrian, the drunk driver is held responsible. You don't take away all the cars, you take away all the drunk drivers. The mother should be punished for pursuing the avenue and realize that killing a baby has serious consequences.
Gives me a feeling of Deja-vu.
Also if you punish the women, they might still resort to more desperate attempts and if you punish noone then you get no desperate attempts but in that case you could just as well legalize the whole thing and that's not what this thread is about.
Hmmmmmm....tricky one , so if say for example a young woman is possibly having a baby that is developing without a brain thingy that may or may not go full term but if it goes full term will die at birth ,and carrying on the pregnancy may threaten the mothers life , but abortion is illegal then of course........
she is obviously possessed by the devil and should be burnt at the stakes...I mean, comon, it's obvious...~:rolleyes:
Surprisingly, in such a case I'd advise a review of the situation and maybe a legal abortion since the life of the mother is threatened but that depends on a lot of things I don't know and cannot judge, guess it should be different from case to case. Just because abortion should be illegal in general does not mean it should never be done. Just like carrying a weapon is illegal in general and policemen still have them.
Zaknafien
07-31-2007, 12:04
religious radicals' opposition to abortion is on its face absurd. abortion is one of the only means of population control we have. Of course, if you're an evangelical, they preach that the world is about to end so lets have all the babies for jesus we can, etc. Have any of you guys seen the movie "Jesus Camp"? the kids preaching at the abortion clinic there are downright chilling. They also preach that global warming, who cares? cut down all the forests, soak up all the oil, this world is about to come to and end. Its very scary.
religious radicals' opposition to abortion is on its face absurd. abortion is one of the only means of population control we have. Of course, if you're an evangelical, they preach that the world is about to end so lets have all the babies for jesus we can, etc. Have any of you guys seen the movie "Jesus Camp"? the kids preaching at the abortion clinic there are downright chilling. They also preach that global warming, who cares? cut down all the forests, soak up all the oil, this world is about to come to and end. Its very scary.
Not against abortus because of that, people seem to think of it as a morning after pill, but it's still a life. If you are man enough to sleep with a woman you should be man enough to accept the consequences. I thought AIDS was the best way of keeping the population small, let's stop the aid to africa, sience rules.
Zaknafien
07-31-2007, 12:13
nontheless, you cannot impose your moral beliefs (of manning up) on someone else. Infanticide has been an accpted cultural norm for thousands of years. Its only since the advenet of radical christianity that its been seen as immoral, since these people see every soul born as some sort of soldier in their 'army'.
nontheless, you cannot impose your moral beliefs (of manning up) on someone else. Infanticide has been an accpted cultural norm for thousands of years. Its only since the advenet of radical christianity that its been seen as immoral, since these people see every soul born as some sort of soldier in their 'army'.
Isn't abortion imposing something on someone? It's a life, would have been at least. Strip away religious outrage and it's still wrong if you ask me. So many would be parents that go true tremendous length to adopt a kid from Africa, and that when it could be so much easier and humane.
Yeah Odin nice and simple innit:dizzy2:
Hey what the hell , its not like we don't have enough abortion is illegal crap over here to have it going through the courtsfairly regularly , lets stick to Odins "death penalty"....then again it being a civilised country we don't only have no abortion we don't have no death penalty either
:7jester:
Don Corleone
07-31-2007, 14:14
religious radicals' opposition to abortion is on its face absurd. abortion is one of the only means of population control we have. Of course, if you're an evangelical, they preach that the world is about to end so lets have all the babies for jesus we can, etc. Have any of you guys seen the movie "Jesus Camp"? the kids preaching at the abortion clinic there are downright chilling. They also preach that global warming, who cares? cut down all the forests, soak up all the oil, this world is about to come to and end. Its very scary.
You know what, I've finally figured out why Zak's posts get under my skin like they do. It's because he's RIGHT!!! Anybody that doesn't support 9th month abortions is a relgious freak that must be institutionalized. Abortions should not only be subsidized by the government, they should pay the woman to have one! Think about it for a second... look at all the progress China has made with population control. I think Zak's onto something here... the more abortions, the more better. :2thumbsup: And any of you that don't agree with the 2 of us, we'll you're just a religious fundamentalist of unsound mind.
nontheless, you cannot impose your moral beliefs (of manning up) on someone else. Infanticide has been an accpted cultural norm for thousands of years. Its only since the advenet of radical christianity that its been seen as immoral, since these people see every soul born as some sort of soldier in their 'army'.
In fact, as he points out in his post, infanticide should be perfectly legal. After all, cavemen did it. It wasn't until we came up with this bulls:daisy: morality stuff that we decided to do away with that... What do you say Zak, 2 year trial period? If your kid hasn't proved to you that they deserve to live by then, you can just shoot 'em? Actually, working this into your point about population control and the public good of abortion and infanticide, maybe we should put the onus on the child (and parents). If by age 2 the little bugger hasn't proven to an impartial panel his personal merits and the justification for letting him live, we drown him in a gunneysack like an unwanted kitten. Sound good?
God, you're a trip Zak. Don't ever change.
nontheless, you cannot impose your moral beliefs (of manning up) on someone else.
:logic:
I'm curious Zak, do you read your own posts?
HoreTore
07-31-2007, 14:36
What do you say Zak, 2 year trial period? If your kid hasn't proved to you that they deserve to live by then, you can just shoot 'em? Actually, working this into your point about population control and the public good of abortion and infanticide, maybe we should put the onus on the child (and parents). If by age 2 the kid hasn't proven to an impartial panel of his personal merits, we drown 'em in a gunneysack like unwanted kittens. Sound good?
I have never agreed with anyone so much. The only thing I can really add, is that 2 years is perhaps too little...
Don Corleone
07-31-2007, 14:40
Alrighty then. Why am I not surprised that the resident communist is on board with the idea for state-run ifanticide (or actually, he's even advocating extending it out). Maybe we should start with your family members. If they're communists too, they can't work all that hard and their worth must be pretty low. Let's gas 'em all.
Or are you just having a little fun with me, HT? :devil:
KukriKhan
07-31-2007, 14:49
Back when I was raising teenage boys (especially when they were 12-16), I often lamented to the missus that we'd not given the "put 'em in a barrel til' they're 18" idea enough consideration. :laugh4:
More seriously, if a society decides it's illegal to wear tophats on Saturdays, and Johnny wears one anyway every Saturday for a month - the society he is a part of has the right and responsibility to impose a proportionate sanction. Or Johnny can leave the society. Or the society can change the law.
I'm reminded of a leadership class the Army gave me in 1972; the instructor asked us: "How many kinds of drugs are there?". We guessed 5, 6, 7... He said: "The correct answer is: TWO! 'Legal' and 'Illegal' ". That was instructive.
HoreTore
07-31-2007, 14:57
Alrighty then. Why am I not surprised that the resident communist is on board with the idea for state-run ifanticide (or actually, he's even advocating extending it out). Maybe we should start with your family members. If they're communists too, they can't work all that hard and their worth must be pretty low. Let's gas 'em all.
It's long overdue! Gas seems unnecessary expensive though, it should be cheaper to just throw the lot in a hole and leave them there. They'd probably burn when dawn comes, too.
Or are you just having a little fun with me, HT? :devil:
Why, me? No, no, I wouldn't do that, ever...
religious radicals' opposition to abortion is on its face absurd. abortion is one of the only means of population control we have.
You forgot about wars and concentration camps. the victims are older but that just means they did more to deserve being put down.
nontheless, you cannot impose your moral beliefs (of manning up) on someone else.
How can the state impose any moral beliefs on anyone then? Above you seem to argue for society and now you say morals cannot be imposed on others, then why on earth is killing you illegal? That a life is worth anything is just a moral belief after all.
Infanticide has been an accpted cultural norm for thousands of years.
Just like wars and extermination of societies, races and anything else one doesn't like. I agree, we need more small wars in Europe and North America, it's gotten quite boring in the last 60 years and those bad christian morals of peace have had a bad influence on our traditions of war and armed internal struggle.
Its only since the advenet of radical christianity that its been seen as immoral, since these people see every soul born as some sort of soldier in their 'army'.
From an evolutionary POV we christians are close relatives of octosquids, that's all I can say about our plans.
DemonArchangel
07-31-2007, 16:35
Abortion should be punished?
Goofball
07-31-2007, 17:01
Everybody stop.
Please see the quesion I posed in the thread opening topic:
For those of you who believe abortion should be illegal, what do you believe the punishment for the woman should be if she has one?
As Don noted in his original post, I tried to phrase the question to remove the whole "should abortion be legal or illegal" argument from the equation. If you believe that abortion should always be legal, any time, to any woman, for any reason, at any stage of her pregnancy, then quite frankly, you really have no place responding to the question or answering the poll as it was intended.
Most of us (even lefties like me) fall somewhere between "no abortions ever" and "abortions any time, right up to the moment of birth." I happen to think that third trimester abortions should be illegal unless there is a demonstrable risk to the mother's health or the baby is so physically and mentally screwed up that it would only live a short, painful life if born. I believe this because I think in the third trimester a fetus has definitely become a "person" as we think of the word, so aborting him or her at that point would be murder.
For that reason, my vote was to jail the mother for 25 years. As has been pointed out by others, if you believe abortion to be murder, but don't believe that women should be punished for having abortions, then IMO, you are a hypocrite.
Also, I wish I had included an option in the poll to jail both the mother and the doctor, because the doctor would be an accomplice to murder.
Here is an interesting article on the subject that got me thinking about the question of punishment in the first place:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20010696/site/newsweek/
Don Corleone
07-31-2007, 17:29
Well, Goof, I don't think I'm being hypocritical in my stance. Women are bombarded with propaganda, telling them from the time they pick up their first Cosmo or Sassy that a fetus is nothing but a mass of tissue until the magical moment it erupts from the birth canal. Prior to that, it's no different than having a cancerous mass removed. I don't think its fair to punish women because they've been duped by the OB-GYN trade association. This is why I suggested mandatory education for the mother, that she must see the developmental stage at which her child was, what it was capable of, what it looked like prior to being sliced apart and vacuumed up. I suspect that would have a much more lasting impact than jail time.
Women are bombarded with propaganda, telling them from the time they pick up their first Cosmo or Sassy that a fetus is nothing but a mass of tissue until the magical moment it erupts from the birth canal.
Because one chooses to be ignorant of facts, dosent proclude them from being responsible for an act.
I don't think its fair to punish women because they've been duped by the OB-GYN trade association.
Lets assume that 45% of women that have had abortions have infact been "duped" (I am attempting to be generous), should the other 55% be penalized? How about a 97% to 3% ratio ?
This is why I suggested mandatory education for the mother, that she must see the developmental stage at which her child was, what it was capable of, what it looked like prior to being sliced apart and vacuumed up. I suspect that would have a much more lasting impact than jail time.
Spoken in the past tense, which is appropriate for this thread. "Shame on you honey, now go attend a class for 6 weeks and dont do it again". How about we wait until the child is born and can speak, then we explain to it that its mother wanted to kill it and allow it to make the choice if thier should be jail time or "classes"? :idea2:
Don Corleone
07-31-2007, 18:02
If we're talking about a scenario where down the road, women were continuing to get 3-rd trimester abortions after it had been outlawed, then perhaps jail time is in order. But the day the law passes? Think about it... women have lived their entire lives being told that the fetus is nothing but a mass of their own tissue, that it can't think, that it can't feel, that it can't survive on its own. Do you think it's fair that enact a law and we're instantly going to punish them, for not altering their view of life quickly enough?
Punishing the doctors? Sure. They've had full knowledge of what they've been doing all along. And they're the ones spreading these lies that a 32 week old fetus is still just a clump of tissue, all in the interest of performing a more expensive procedure and lining their pockets.
But the women? How about we recognize that they've been lied to and might need a little while to understand the truth?
Goofball
07-31-2007, 18:10
Well, Goof, I don't think I'm being hypocritical in my stance. Women are bombarded with propaganda, telling them from the time they pick up their first Cosmo or Sassy that a fetus is nothing but a mass of tissue until the magical moment it erupts from the birth canal. Prior to that, it's no different than having a cancerous mass removed. I don't think its fair to punish women because they've been duped by the OB-GYN trade association. This is why I suggested mandatory education for the mother, that she must see the developmental stage at which her child was, what it was capable of, what it looked like prior to being sliced apart and vacuumed up. I suspect that would have a much more lasting impact than jail time.
Maybe "hypocritical" is too strong a word. But I am having a hard time understanding your position.
Why do you recommend education for a woman who commits murder because she has been bombarded with pro-abortion propaganda, but jail time for the inner city kid who murders somebody in a drive-by because he has grown up knowing nothing but gangsta culture and values? Why don't we just show him pictures and videos of the person he killed, tell them about all the things his victim had accomplished and would accomplish, then send him on his way?
If we're talking about a scenario where down the road, women were continuing to get 3-rd trimester abortions after it had been outlawed, then perhaps jail time is in order. But the day the law passes? Think about it... women have lived their entire lives being told that the fetus is nothing but a mass of their own tissue, that it can't think, that it can't feel, that it can't survive on its own. Do you think it's fair that enact a law and we're instantly going to punish them, for not altering their view of life quickly enough?
Well this presses the issue further then I think Goofball wants (which is partly my fault when I replied previously), so I wont go on and on, only to say that not all women consider this a mass of thier own tissue that cant think or feel. Some think just the opposite actually.
Punishing the doctors? Sure. They've had full knowledge of what they've been doing all along. And they're the ones spreading these lies that a 32 week old fetus is still just a clump of tissue, all in the interest of performing a more expensive procedure and lining their pockets.
This is very cynical, alas it has merit. With the cavaet that the women arent being rounded up on the street and forced to the good doctors office. It is a voluntary process, sure punish the doctors as well, there part of the premeditated murder.
But the women? How about we recognize that they've been lied to and might need a little while to understand the truth?
I'll concede that implementation of outlawing abortion and penalties would take a lot of time to take hold in our society. However I have no doubt the prequel of rhetoric, press coverage, and debate would suffice to indoctrinate everyone as to what is going to happen, when as a result of which action.
2 years sounds about right, we can let the killing go on until then.
Don Corleone
07-31-2007, 18:28
I don't argue that my approach in this particular case is somewhat inconsistent from my general theory on crime and punishment. But this case is certainly inconsistent with most established case law. We don't typically change the definition of life & wrongful death on a frequent basis.
In your example Goof, regardless of the peer-pressure said inner-city youth had been under, the established pillars of society, the legal community and the medical community, never endorsed, let alone encouraged his behavior. He always knew what he was doing was wrong, even if his 'gangsta-culture' told him to go ahead and do it anyway.
In the particular case of elective 3rd trimester abortions, for th past 30 years, politicians, lawyers and doctors have all been united, mostly, in telling women that it's no different than getting an abortion in the first few weeks. They've told women that it's the exact same thing, just more tissue to deal with. I'm sorry, that's unfair to expect women to just turn around on a dime when all established authorities have been telling them the opposite.
All that being said, perhaps incarceration would be the sensible course of action, not because its fair, but because it's the only way to get such a policy to work. We didn't tell slaveholders in May, 1865 that 'well, don't do it again". Once the law is the law, respect for the law must be a requirement by all members of society.
Also, I wish I had included an option in the poll to jail both the mother and the doctor, because the doctor would be an accomplice to murder.See, my thinking would be that the doctor is the one actually committing murder in that case and the mother would be the accessory. Not quite the same, but similar to a woman who would hire a hitman to off her husband. She'd be implicit in killing her baby, but the one who pulls the trigger, so to speak, is the doctor. Prosecute the doctor for murder and the woman for the applicable crime as well.
See, my thinking would be that the doctor is the one actually committing murder in that case and the mother would be the accessory. Not quite the same, but similar to a woman who would hire a hitman to off her husband. She'd be implicit in killing her baby, but the one who pulls the trigger, so to speak, is the doctor. Prosecute the doctor for murder and the woman for the applicable crime as well.
Well said. I agree.
No jail. Just probation and community service helping mothers expecting new children.
Abortion should be punished?
Yes, it should, as you dont give life to someone who will have it.
And, both should go to jail for homicide.
Big King Sanctaphrax
08-01-2007, 03:52
Well, I think that in order to be consistent, it should be punished commensurately with infanticide. Which in practice means a custodial sentence will be rare.
Giving someone life for getting an abortion is a bit silly when you'd probably only get a supervision order or such for killing the baby once it's actually born.
PanzerJaeger
08-01-2007, 04:08
The same punishment should apply to premeditated murder across the board.. whether its abortion or poisoning your wife. In my state, that would mean death.
Public spanking with a flat hand on her bare buttocks by an old midwife.
...
Wait!! there are those who are into this sort of thing.. *sigh* I guess leave her be.
Ironside
08-01-2007, 11:18
Same punishment as infanticide I guess (whatever that is) and at least a revocation of license for the doctors (probably worse).
And uhm death penalty for spirals and certain kinds of pills (the morning after version and the one that prevents the ovum from attaching in the uterus ). :book:
(Sorry Goof came up with a new one for issue we're not allowed to have in this thread)
Somebody Else
08-01-2007, 12:57
Punish the women by knocking them up. Or was it locking... Nah, knocking... I'll help.
Alexander the Pretty Good
08-02-2007, 01:50
The much maligned National Review weighs in (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjkwNWQ4ZDQ2NTljNDg4MjUyYWIxZWQ0NDVjMTkxYjg=). Basically - punish the abortionist.
Rodion Romanovich
08-04-2007, 11:23
lol I voted death penalty as a joke. Then I see that 5 others have voted it already... I sincerely hope at least some of them were joking too :sweatdrop:
More seriously, I think the women should go unpunished (or result in around 1 hour of councelling/talks) as long as the fetus was less than 10 months old. I'm not allowed to think it shouldn't be criminal with abortion after around the 3rd month though, so I think it should be considered a crime with abortion after the 3rd month, but give no punishment except around 1 hour of talks unless the fetus was over 10 months old.
Now a more interesting question: what should be the punishment for a couple who have more than the maximum number of allowed children in a country that has birth control?
Gah!
If the baby could have been adopted possibly some sort of community service. But otherwise no punishment, (depending on the circumstances).
KafirChobee
08-05-2007, 22:23
Here is an interesting article on the subject that got me thinking about the question of punishment in the first place:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20010696/site/newsweek/
Is a good editorial, btw. Thought it ironic that those that oppose abortion had no answers on the youtube video. Is sad really that abortion rights remains a political basketball - RoeVWade is +30 years old. Let it go already.
On a different, but related subject:
There are +13,000,000 orphans world wide and maybe as many as 40M by 2010 (what with the wars, AIDs, etc), read somewhere that there are 800,000 in the USA (may includes those in foster-care). Ending abortion, solves nothing - it simply removes another individual right and expands the number of unwanted children. Go anywhere in the third-world and you can see for yourself children living on the streets. on their own and uncared for.
Want to help those that are?
http://orphange.org/
BTW, there are over 2M links on orphanages. It's a problem worth ignoring.
:balloon2:
Burn at the stake? lol
Meneldil
08-06-2007, 07:35
lol I voted death penalty as a joke. Then I see that 5 others have voted it already... I sincerely hope at least some of them were joking too :sweatdrop:
They were not apparently :shame:
I'm not gonna vote, as I don't think abortion should be illegal. But then, seeing this poll and its results, I sincerely hope it will never become illegal.
Death penalty for abortion ? LoL. Even if you consider that abortion is a murder, you can't juste compare it to any other kind of murder, as Don pointed out.
Think about it... women have lived their entire lives being told that the fetus is nothing but a mass of their own tissue, that it can't think, that it can't feel, that it can't survive on its own.
Well, I don't want to sound like an ass, but isn't that true ?
BTW Don, in France, the whole anti-abortion crew is composed of religious nutjobs (who usually also happen to be part of the extremist right wing). Things might be different in America, but in Europe, I'm rather sure all the people fighting abortion are member of a radical church of some sort.
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