View Full Version : The Golden Horde
Emp. Conralius
07-31-2002, 09:22
Just a topic to discuss the fiercest faction of them all, the Mongols!
I hate em, cant stand em, they are like pests.......only from mongolia
Yeah! I agree we want england
england
england
england
england
england
lol
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
England, Shmengland,
Mongols Rule!
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
Funky Phantom
07-31-2002, 15:51
I might play as Russia or Poland just so i get the honour of taking on (and hopefully beating) the golden horde, it would be pretty fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
What religion are the mongols considered to be? Can you launch a crusade\jihad against them?
Dark Phoenix
07-31-2002, 16:05
They are Pagans, and where they are on the map if you launch a Crusade aginst them going through Orthodox and pagan lands causes they armies to lower in size.
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"DP is correct" - Shiro
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We may have years, we may have hours,
but sooner or later, we push up flowers
Dark Phoenix
07-31-2002, 17:06
BTW I dont know who to detest more the whinging Poms or the murderous Mongols. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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"DP is correct" - Shiro
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We may have years, we may have hours,
but sooner or later, we push up flowers
[This message has been edited by Dark Phoenix (edited 07-31-2002).]
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
07-31-2002, 17:33
You must be able to request a crusade/jihad against the mongols.
If the french do it against the Scots who are a non-playable faction the same must be possible for the mongols.
Would be interesting to see.
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
BarryNoDachi
07-31-2002, 17:48
the "poms" have surely got to be the strongest?
[/B][/QUOTE]
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
if you were allowed to play as mongols you would not be allowed to crusade/jihad wich would unbalance the game
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"A warriors death in battle should be bloody"
Orthodox factions can't Crusade or jihad either, and they are playable.
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CONITOERGOVINCO
I suspect that if the Mongols have been defeating the eastern factions like there was no tomorrow, I would buy the Pope and launch a Crusade against them... That would possibly be the only way to stop them before they killed all of Europe.
LittleGrizzly
07-31-2002, 20:02
i would let mongols take the east and with western countrys rushing to defend against them i would take thier backs then mongols have half or europe i have the either richer half then just barricade a line of provinces with a ton of troops and take over some africain provinces while i wait to slaughter the mongols http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
RageMonsta
07-31-2002, 20:57
Europe looked to ally with the Mongols.... and had dreams of an Eastern saviour called Prestor John... alot of the Mongosl followed a form of Christian worship.
The hope was that the Golden Horde would come and save the Holy Land from the heathen....but the Europeans (as usual) completely misjudged the attitudes of the Khans.
It is interesting to state that during the reign of the Khans in the middle east there was alot of religious tolerance (compared to when either Moslim or Christians were in charge).
The Order of Rage will not favour any single factions as the Order embraces all cultures and military powers....just aslong as we get paid and our steel is wet with blood.
(history lesson is in brief...dont come with super detail to try and make Monsta look stupid please...Monsta has Rage library... and thousands of imps to destroy your attacks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )
Funky Phantom
07-31-2002, 21:43
I would like to play HRE and advance eastwards slighlty, then fortify and wait for the mongols. The heavy germanic cavalry vs the all-conquering mongol horseman, quite a clash http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Stephen Hummell
07-31-2002, 22:09
Quote Originally posted by Funky Phantom:
I would like to play HRE and advance eastwards slighlty, then fortify and wait for the mongols. The heavy germanic cavalry vs the all-conquering mongol horseman, quite a clash http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
But thats how the mongols got to Austria, by easily defeating Armoured Knights. I think the islamic powers have a better chance at beating the mongols than the Europeans do.
[This message has been edited by Stephen Hummell (edited 07-31-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Funky Phantom:
I would like to play HRE and advance eastwards slighlty, then fortify and wait for the mongols. The heavy germanic cavalry vs the all-conquering mongol horseman, quite a clash http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
GAH!
The moment the Mongols get a whif of the hydrophobic French, they will turn and run back to the steppes from whence they came!
But, the French had better not open their mouths. If the Mongols get an earful of the usual French rudeness, they will hold their breath and slay them all for their insolence!
God forbid they think all people are French!
[Looks in oven]
[Pulls out tray]
Frog legs, anybody?
GAH!
[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 07-31-2002).]
chilliwilli
07-31-2002, 23:12
Yeah The Mongols are probably the most religously tolerant people ever(this is probably why they were all converted to different religions later on such as Sunni Islam, Buddhism, and Konfucianism.). I also don't understand why they were considered pagan since their religion revolved around one god(Tenghri The Eternal Heaven) much like other religions. There were somethings like prediction of the future, but I don't think thats enough to be labeled pagan. Another religiously tolerant people were actually The Turks. They didn't care what religion you were as long as you were a person of the book(Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or Zoroastrians), but of course they hated Shiite Muslims, who at the time were in control of The caliph at Baghdad.
Rob The Bastard
07-31-2002, 23:27
Ahh yes...don't our puny armies look magnificent...what part of a HORDE fails to register with you guys????
section
platoon
company
battalion
regiment
brigade
army
another army, another army, another army,another army, another army,another army, another army.....
HORDE!!!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
HORDE!!!
Stephen Hummell
07-31-2002, 23:37
Well the mongols had a small army, compared to westren armys. They just had great generals.
Funky Phantom
08-01-2002, 02:56
Im guessing they have no siege weapons due to the nature of their army and would therefore have serious problems laying siege to a strong castle...
Funky Phantom
08-01-2002, 03:00
Also, i wonder how the mongols would fare against such units as the billmen and swiss pikemen...
remember that mongols didnt won on a 1 to 1 basis but more on a tactical and strategic level that involved cunning pianifications , breaking morale and of course mobility ...making them clash against a swiss pike formation will be spectacular but not realistic ...
BTW the swiss at the start were pretty weak against cavalry as the Milanese troops showed at Arbedo ( was anyway before the massive use of pikemen )
Emp. Conralius
08-01-2002, 04:27
Quote Originally posted by Funky Phantom:
Also, i wonder how the mongols would fare against such units as the billmen and swiss pikemen...[/QUOTE]
They do have infantry...but they are medium infantry, so they can't really stand up to the heavier soldiers tha you suggested.
Emp. Conralius
08-01-2002, 04:28
Quote Originally posted by Funky Phantom:
Im guessing they have no siege weapons due to the nature of their army and would therefore have serious problems laying siege to a strong castle...[/QUOTE]
The Mongols learned to use siege engines after they took over China.
... and they became quite good at it.
They would either slaughter the Swiss or get slaughtered by them. It all depends on where they would meet them. In Switzerland the Swiss would cream them as the Mongols would not be able to maneuver enough to stay away from them. In the open the Mongol horse archers would slaughter the Swiss as they could pepper them without the Swiss would be able to get near.
Emp. Conralius
08-01-2002, 05:37
Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
... and they became quite good at it.
They would either slaughter the Swiss or get slaughtered by them. It all depends on where they would meet them. In Switzerland the Swiss would cream them as the Mongols would not be able to maneuver enough to stay away from them. In the open the Mongol horse archers would slaughter the Swiss as they could pepper them without the Swiss would be able to get near.[/QUOTE]
I don'tthink the Swiss would win in either situation. The Mongols were used to rugged and mountainous terrain as well.
Stephen Hummell
08-01-2002, 06:50
Mongols were good in all areas.
RageMonsta
08-01-2002, 06:59
The greatest danger to the British armies 'square' that defended against cav attacks was the cannon.
Now the point here is this.....you put your Swiss hedgehogs all over the battlefield (not always squares but anyway)and then have you swarm of Mongol Horsemen fly around popping off shots......its the cannon/square issue again.
And as noted the Mongols had GREAT generals...Subudei (translation depending) was studies by Rommel/Napoleone/Patton just to name a few....now gentlemen (and ladies)the Mongols would have picked the battlefield to suit their needs otherwise they would have used hit and run tactics till the right place was found....but lets loot at the battle anyway...
Pikes push on..cos if they stand too long they are 'Swiss cheese' (pardon the pun)....gap opens in Mongol center....as my Mongol general has bolstered his flanks with alot of infantry...the flanks hold just enough so that the advancing pikes fall into the hole.
game over...classic Mongol tactic without faking the retreat..
This can be reproduced today (game wise)...somebody take all spear against Magyar Khans Mongol army..no..lets make it easier...he will even use Japanese units..... you wont live to tell the tale thats for sure....those who doubt this...have a look at his recorded battles (wolves web site) using ALL cav against mixed armies (even guns)....anyway
back to history bits....Mongols would have been hard pressed to be beaten by ANY army until the introduction of gunpowder on a greater scale...even then if Swiss pikes were to take a victory...they would get only one.
Mongols no siege machines..tut tut... they invented chemical warfare..they would fire dead rotting bodies over the walls of cities to promote disease....or victims of plague..the effect was also mental on the city folk.....imagine seeing uncle Fred land on your roof a few days after he was KIA!
Anyway the final score Mongols 3 Swiss 1
BTW while I ramble on about Mongols...think on this...what is the most effective form of warfare in Modern times..in other words what won the most battles/land....Blitz Krieg...and guess who the Germans generals studied for that....old Subudei from the reindeer people....makes you think dont it!
Emp. Conralius
08-01-2002, 08:45
I think a great faction is the c-Spanish!
what's the c is c-spanish? i keep seein that, don't know what it means. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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-All knowledge is worth having-
Christian Spain, if I am correct.
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
08-01-2002, 19:39
You would be amazed at what the Mongols accomplished.
Infact I think they were one of the first civilizations to use seige weapons to attack a city in China.
Secondly the Mongols were from the steppe plains where if you weren't a good horseman you were either a woman or you were pushing up the daisies.
They had no form of mongol infantry. All of their infantry was conscripted soldiers from the territories that they conquered.
They had very small contingents of Mongols in their armies, but their armies were vast in comparison to most european attempts.
Their generals would have been top of the tactical schools if they had gone. Their tactics worked well against most types of army and it was only the fact that greed overtook their personalities instead of bringing the world to its knees that stopped them from getting to the Atlantic Ocean.
They could never issue a crusade/jihad because it wasn't the way they ran their lives religiously. Afterall they didn't need to organise a crusade/jihad when the Khanate was one single empire because the Khan would simply issue an order and it would be carried out.
When the Khanate that Ghenghis Khan split up (i think this is right! Kublai rules but only really controlled in China and Mongolia and left the rest/divided it up between his generals)??? Ask Magy on that one. But then there were many Khanate's and co-operation wasn't common I don't think so they never were a threat again.
The Golden Horde was situated in South West Russia and there was another Khanate below it in Persia it would have been nice to put that Khanate in also as a non-playable faction. Chances are that CA will mix them together as one though.
Oh Well.
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
MagyarKhans Cham
08-01-2002, 19:42
May i suggest that even the Mongol women were (are) excellent horsebackriders at taht time...
MagyarKhans Cham
08-01-2002, 19:43
Generals, or better members of the Royal family (Orloks)
Emp. Conralius
08-01-2002, 22:44
Quote Originally posted by Prodigy:
Christian Spain, if I am correct.
[/QUOTE]
and yo are correct.
Stephen Hummell
08-01-2002, 23:01
C-Spain is Castille if I'm right.
Emp. Conralius
08-02-2002, 00:34
Quote Originally posted by Stephen Hummell:
C-Spain is Castille if I'm right.[/QUOTE]
you are right. I wanna conquer Aragon and drive the Moors out of Spain. I like the C-Spanish because I believe that their campaign will be the most fun. First off, the Spanish start off in somewhat of a "crusade." Since the Iberian Penninsula is fairly rugged and inhospitable, you already get an artificial feeling of being in the Holy Land. But after you subdue the Almohads, you could either follow up your offensive with an ivasion of Africa, or you could travel over the Pyrenees and invade Southern France. According to what I hae read, Southen Fance is very different from the North. Heresy runs rampent! But they may accept a new Spanish monarch...
chilliwilli
08-02-2002, 00:53
These are The orginal Khanates:
1. Golden Horde or Kipchak Khanate(Jochi's bloodline)- 1st Khan is Batu a Grandson of Genghis. Ruled from Sarai on The Volga River.
2. The Ilkhanate(Tolui's bloodline)- 1st khan is Hulagu a grandson of Genghis. Ruled over Persia and what would later become Tamerlane's empire roughly.
3. Chagtai Khanate(Chagtai's bloodline)- Ruled from Uzbekistan to The Altay Mountains(Samarkand and Bukhara were under their control). This was The Khanate Tamerlane was born into and his armies were made up of Chagtais.
There were also various splinters of The Golden Horde such as Crimea, Astrakhan, Kazan, and others.
EDIT: It is true that Mongol women were excellent horseman. They sometimes fought also. This helped fuel legends of Amazons.
[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-01-2002).]
Stephen Hummell
08-02-2002, 01:21
El Cid, Had his own little kingdom around Valencia towards the end of his life.
The almohad was never together, it spread out over many kingdoms in Africa and Southern Spain. They were only together through islam. When a kingdom was in trouble, another kingdom would come help them out.
The Mongols were great BUT they have never Clashed with a BIG military nation , Russia , Poland and Hungary were undeveloped at that time and few Teutonic Knights werent able to restore the game , they runned over part of the muslim states just beause they were divided as always and under attack by the crusades and anyway they were beaten 2 big times by Mameluks .. So great but how much is a mistery .
Stephen Hummell
08-02-2002, 01:51
The mongols Beat The Kwariziam empire that had 300,000 men. The mongols didn't even come close to that, but the mongols steam rolled over them.
300,000 men are a bit too much ... btw readind the history of the crusades we found alot of informations about why the Khwarazmian werent a that big threat for the crusaders ( few thousands ) and for the very divided muslim factions , ...
Stephen Hummell
08-02-2002, 04:42
Anyway the Khwarazimian empire had many more men then the mongols had.
Emp. Conralius
08-02-2002, 06:13
Quote Originally posted by Frantz:
The Mongols were great BUT they have never Clashed with a BIG military nation , Russia , Poland and Hungary were undeveloped at that time and few Teutonic Knights werent able to restore the game , they runned over part of the muslim states just beause they were divided as always and under attack by the crusades and anyway they were beaten 2 big times by Mameluks .. So great but how much is a mistery .[/QUOTE]
Ghengis Khan's Mongols fought the faltering Persian Epire, which had an army 500,000 men. The Mongols had an army half that size (roughly 250,000) and managed to pull off a devastating victory. This crippled the Persians and made them ripe for the Saracen picking.
chilliwilli
08-02-2002, 06:25
Not exactly. The Mongols never fielded an army exceeding 100,000 men during Genghis Khan's time. The army they brought to The Khwarizm Sultanate was about 90,000 and The Sultanate had about 150,000 I believe. The Mongol numbers are always exxagerated because they would do things to make the enemy think that they were many times stronger than him such as have each man light extra torches during night and place handcrafted dummies on unused mounts. These all create the illusion that the Mongol army was twice as strong than it actually was.
Thats right, in the middle and late stages Mongols never had big armies. It requered only 20000 of Mongols (10000 were elite guards of Subadai) ride through the whole Rus, Poland and Hungary. Mongols did not realy plan invading Rus at this stage, but a constant and insulting denial of alliance of Rus' fuedaling Knyazs, gave Mongols no other chose. After Rus Mongols felt nothing could stop them, so Poland and the rest of Europe were on the way to be conquered.
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
[This message has been edited by Prodigy (edited 08-02-2002).]
Also Mongolian women were one of the few nations in the world that had the same rights as Mongolian male race. So yes, Mongolian women did a lot of stuff just as good as men.
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I am the law and you can't beat the law.
[This message has been edited by Prodigy (edited 08-02-2002).]
Boleslaw Wrymouth
08-02-2002, 11:15
Poland and Hungary were not "undeveloped" at the time. The battle of Legnica (Legnitz) was a product of Polish-German cooperation. The Empire sent troops as well as Bohemia. All of the troops were equiped in the same way: Large groups of infantry supported by completly armored Knights. They lost.
Would the Mongols be able to conquer all of Europe? I doubt it...Eventually a league would develope and Christians would have been motivated. But if you think the Mongols were successful because Poland and Hungary were primitive, you would be wrong. In terms of equipment they were both Western \European.
Funky Phantom
08-02-2002, 15:48
This is beginning to look suspiciously similar to the argument as to how strong and developed Russia really was...
Lets not start down that road again :\
Timur was able to get almost the same empire of the mongols few years after ... that say it all . and Alexandre magne made is big empire in the same area !!
Its a case that the 3 of the 4 biggest empires in the history of world were made in the SAME area ?? that say nothing ??
chilliwilli
08-02-2002, 22:11
Tamerlane's empire was very small compared to The Mongols he only conquered Persia and Traxsonia
Emp. Conralius
08-02-2002, 22:20
Quote Originally posted by chilliwilli:
Tamerlane's empire was very small compared to The Mongols he only conquered Persia and Traxsonia[/QUOTE]
The largest empire the Mongols had ever built was under Kublai Khan.
Emp. Conralius
08-02-2002, 22:24
Quote Originally posted by chilliwilli:
Not exactly. The Mongols never fielded an army exceeding 100,000 men during Genghis Khan's time. The army they brought to The Khwarizm Sultanate was about 90,000 and The Sultanate had about 150,000 I believe. The Mongol numbers are always exxagerated because they would do things to make the enemy think that they were many times stronger than him such as have each man light extra torches during night and place handcrafted dummies on unused mounts. These all create the illusion that the Mongol army was twice as strong than it actually was.[/QUOTE]
Your right, I musta read it incorrectly, the Mongol army was about 25,000 men. When the Mongols invaded Poland, the German and Bohemian knights came swiftly to the Poles' defense. Everytime an ambush was set to happen, a mongol on a camel beated a drumcalled the nakkara (or naquara) ad the ambush would ensue.
[This message has been edited by Emp. Conralius (edited 08-02-2002).]
Orda Khan
08-02-2002, 22:59
It simply tells me that it is easier to create a continuous land empire than one where you have to take to the sea. That this area was part of many empires then is no surprise and not because its peoples were weak either. Let us not forget that the middle east was an area of developed culture and education and being so fielded powerful armies. The smaller Mongol armies were battle hardened and fate played a part in that at this moment in history they were blessed with many superb generals. The reconnaissance force of some 20000 that Jebei and Subedei took around the Caspian crushed the Georgian attempts and in fact left them unable of fielding another army. At the battle of Kalka they destroyed Russian attempts, from there they met up with Jochi and destroyed the Volga Bulgars. All this and the enormous amount of intelligence gathered makes this perhaps the greatest military achievement of all time.
The Mongols conquered and united north and south China and were well equipped with seige weapons. These were improved after they aquired the skills of Persian seige engineers. Batu actually used seige weapons on troops at the battle of Sajo.
They were Shamanistic so they had their gods much like Native Americans. The Keraits who were part of their number were Nestorian Christian. Buddhism had a strong following in China and also at first in the Ilkhanate and it was the dithering of western Christianity that saved Islam. The Khanate of Qipchaq (later the Golden Horde)soon became Muslim under Berkei. It was in his trade interest to take on the faith of his rich merchants.
After the death of Chingis Khan the empire began to break up. Jealousy among the princes during the Russian campaign, civil war, alliance with Mameluks and moving the Mongol capital to China all helped to break apart the the empire.
The so called victory at Ain Jalut was a rear guard force being hopelessly outnumbered due to the fact that Hulegu had withdrawn after the death of Ogedei.
The military achievements of Timur were great however he did not possess the ability to set up government of his conquests, thus he never established the rule of Chingis Khan.
There is no doubt that the Mongols were the greatest military force in history.
..........Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
a Real military historian cant be so sure about anything , i just say that they never faced a real test , that they made just 'expeditions' into europe , that they won against populations that have been conquered by everyone ( not that being great warriors is good , maybe they were simply more advanced cultures ) and so we cant say that the mongols were so good .
For being succesful an empire need
be lucky finding great leaders at the right time
be lucky to find weak ( or less strong ) opponents at the right time
be wise to assimilate from other cultures to survive or almost to being useful for future generations ( and in that the Mongols were poor cos they were assimilated in China )
a Liegnitz the Enrich II army was composed by
the Slesian army (!!)
a mix of Polish troops
some ( they were never many !! ) teutonic knights
and the famous "golden miners of Slesia " !!
i dont thing it can be rappresentative of the Elite of of european troops ...
what about the chinese? were they not a strong nation? it took the mongols 3 generations of continous warfare to conquer all of china. that would make the chinese a strong nation in my book to resist like that for decades. whereas most others collapsed after a climatic battle, but the mongols overan them still the same.
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indeed
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
08-03-2002, 03:31
Are you sure it took 75 years to conquer China. Seems a long time and never remember reading about it taking that long.
Anyway If you look at the strategy map near the east the caspain sea isnt even on it so the Gloden Horde will have few provinces.
The Kwarazim(sp?) Empire comes under Turkish or Saracen rule.(didnt check to see how far into game screeny was)
Soooo... the Golden Horde only seems to be a presence in the North like it shud be. But the southern Khanate(cant remember which one) is put into another factions empire.
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
Papewaio
08-03-2002, 04:10
Quote Originally posted by Toda Nebuchadnezzar:
You would be amazed at what the Mongols accomplished.
Infact I think they were one of the first civilizations to use seige weapons to attack a city in China.
They could never issue a crusade/jihad because it wasn't the way they ran their lives religiously. Afterall they didn't need to organise a crusade/jihad when the Khanate was one single empire because the Khan would simply issue an order and it would be carried out.
[/QUOTE]
They learned seige warfare off the chinese and just like the normans in england they intergrated with the locals and formed their own dynasty.
The Khan was considered a god or a representative of god. Disagree with the Mongols and you were tortured, raped, multilated, murdered. So there way of war was quite often centered on a brutal religous war.
Having mounted archers is a huge tactical advantage. In crowd control a mounted policeman is calculated to have 10 times the effect of foot police in riot gear. So even if outnumbered the military strength of the Mongols was quite strong and they could always back off. At least there generals where smart enough to know to do that... unlike a certain Takeda Daimyo and a Oda palisade.
chilliwilli
08-03-2002, 05:07
The reason The Golden Horde is the only Khanate on the map is because the others are to far east to be included, so they are not part of another nations empire on the strategy map in MTW. Also The Mongols were never ever assimilated into Chinese culture. Up until 1368 only Mongols could hold office and they were the elite class. They also used an organized form of pillaging to take their riches. If they were assimilated why did China feel the need to kick them out in 1368 and found The Ming dynasty? They were not assimilated they were occupying it. The best example of someone being assimilated into Chinese culture are the nomadic Jurchins. They were assimilated and founded the dynasty that Genghis Khan put an end to by conquering Northern China. They became civilized and abandoned their old ways. The Mongols did nothing of the kind they simply occupied China founded The Yuan dynasty wich was an excuse to take their wealth away really. By the time they were kicked out in 1368 they were as foreign to China as when Genghis Khan first breached the Great Wall.
[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-02-2002).]
[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-02-2002).]
Boleslaw Wrymouth
08-03-2002, 10:04
Frantz,
Poland was not conquered by anyone. Elite European troops? The Holy Roman Empire lost almost every time they went into Poland. Ever notice that the Poles continually crown themselves King instead of Dukes of the Empire. So let's see, they utterly defeat the Empire but they aren't good troops. The Battle Of Legnica included not only the Teutonic Knights but German Knights from all over eastern Germany. So even if you believe they weren't elite (those primitives really kicked your ass though, huh?) the Germans must have been. So why did they lose?
The funniest thing is the Poles and Germans both had the best equipment available in Europe and because you believe Poland must have been primitive, you then think the Mongols couldn't have moved any further west. You would be mistaken.
[This message has been edited by Boleslaw Wrymouth (edited 08-03-2002).]
Quote There is no doubt that the Mongols were the greatest military force in history.[/QUOTE]
I have plenty of doubt, Orda!
Compared to Rome, the Mongols were a flash in the pan of history. For century after century the legions expanded and guarded the republic/empire.
Time and resilience should be the arbiter. The Mongols were a passing fluke like the Spanish conquistadors in America, very good to be sure but mostly the profiteers of damn good timing and circumstances. Rome had a system and it worked for a very long time. Romans conquered and absorbed their foes, making them Roman. Mongols conquered all right but were then absorbed BY their foes. Nomadic as they were it was bound to happen.
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CONITOERGOVINCO
Boleslaw Wrymouth
08-03-2002, 11:06
Good point Nelson. The Mongols could never have been an Empire. They didn't have the political structure. As Tatars they kept losing to Poland and Russia. They didn't have any kind of political coherence.
Boleslaw Wrymouth
08-03-2002, 11:56
Actually the lithuanians destroyed any kind of hope for a dynasty in Europe. But according to Frantz, Hungary and Poland were primitive. Lithuania was, yet they dealt with the Mongols much better than the German, Polish and Hungarian Knights. They were lightly armored and could keep up with the Mongols.
Orda Khan
08-03-2002, 16:37
From China to the Danube is considerably larger than the mediterranean empire of Rome who lost it to the Vandals and Goths, who were in turn running from the Huns, more warriors from the eastern steppes.
I would not consider the calculated campaigns against Russia, Europe and China as flukes.
Assimilated in China yes they became sedentery moved their Capital to China and with it all the riches of the empire. The Chinese were trained in Mongol warfare as to were the other nations they conquered.
When the internal squabbling split the empire into seperate Khanates that were at war with each other, they did become a weaker force. But it was this and not some great European force that stopped any further conquests by the Mongols.
And yes they did do more than pillage, for the first time the trade routes were safe and trade flourished thanks to them
------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Emp. Conralius
08-03-2002, 23:08
This fact is undisputed: the Mongols constructed the largest empire ever built by man.
Emp. Conralius
08-03-2002, 23:25
Here are some are the names of the Mongol commander's found in the game. I looked in the demo files...
Mongol commander names
["Abaqha"] {"Abaqha"}
["Aragibag"] {"Aragibag"}
["Arghun"] {"Arghun"}
["Arigböge"] {"Arigböge"}
["Arigh Boke"] {"Arigh Boke"}
["Ayurbarwada"] {"Ayurbarwada"}
["Batu"] {"Batu"}
["Bayan"] {"Bayan"}
["Chagatai"] {"Chagatai"}
["Chaghatai"] {"Chaghatai"}
["Chinggis"] {"Chinggis"}
["Egidü"] {"Egidü"}
["El Temur"] {"El Temur"}
["Genghis "] {"Genghis "}
["Ghazan"] {"Ghazan"}
["Güyük"] {"Güyük"}
["Hülegü"] {"Hülegü"}
["Hung Ch'a-Ch'iu"] {"Hung Ch'a-Ch'iu"}
["Irinjibal"] {"Irinjibal"}
["Jagatai "] {"Jagatai "}
["Jebe"] {"Jebe"}
["Jöchi"] {"Jöchi"}
["Kaidu"] {"Kaidu"}
["Kaishan"] {"Kaishan"}
["Kara Hülegü"] {"Kara Hülegü"}
["Khoshila"] {"Khoshila"}
["Khublai"] {"Khublai"}
["Kubla"] {"Kubla"}
["Kuyuk"] {"Kuyuk"}
["Kublai"] {"Kublai"}
["Mamai"] {"Mamai"}
["Mengli Girai"] {"Mengli Girai"}
["Möngke"] {"Möngke"}
["Nayan"] {"Nayan"}
["Ogadai"] {"Ogadai"}
["Ogatai"] {"Ogatai"}
["Ögödei"] {"Ögödei"}
["Öljeitü"] {"Öljeitü"}
["Orda"] {"Orda"}
["Orjibal"] {"Orjibal"}
["Shidebala"] {"Shidebala"}
["Subudai"] {"Subudai"}
["Temudur"] {"Temudur"}
["Temujin"] {"Temujin"}
["Temur Oljeitu"] {"Temur Oljeitu"}
["Toghon Temur"] {"Toghon Temur"}
["Tokhtamysh"] {"Tokhtamysh"}
["Tolui"] {"Tolui"}
["Tsagadai"] {"Tsagadai"}
["Ugedai"] {"Ugedai"}
["Yesugei"] {"Yesugei"}
["Yeh-lü Ch'u-ts'ai"] {"Yeh-lü Ch'u-ts'ai"}
["Yesun Temur"] {"Yesun Temur"}
["Zhen Jin"] {"Zhen Jin"}
["Shidadai"] {"Shidadai"}
["Ordai"] {"Ordai"}
["Ordhun"] {"Ordhun"}
["Subujin"] {"Subujin"}
["Jebu"] {"Jebu"}
["Jebdun"] {"Jebdun"}
["Tobu"] {"Tobu"}
["Tobdun"] {"Tobdun"}
["Nayu"] {"Nayu"}
["Argu"] {"Argu"}
["Argudhun"] {"Argudhun"}
["Khoyan"] {"Khoyan"}
["Khoyu"] {"Khoyu"}
["Khodun"] {"Khodun"}
["Khochi"] {"Khochi"}
["Khogibag"] {"Khogibag"}
["Abayan"] {"Abayan"}
["Abadai"] {"Abadai"}
["Abadhun"] {"Abadhun"}
["Arablai"] {"Arablai"}
["Abangis"] {"Abangis"}
["Abashan"] {"Abashan"}
["Aboke"] {"Aboke"}
["Aragei"] {"Aragei"}
["Aradai"] {"Aradai"}
["Arabla"] {"Arabla"}
["Arajibal"] {"Arajibal"}
["Araboge"] {"Araboge"}
["Aragatai"] {"Aragatai"}
["Araghun"] {"Araghun"}
["Batudai"] {"Batudai"}
["Batutai"] {"Batutai"}
["Batublai"] {"Batublai"}
["Batuban"] {"Batuban"}
["Batudhun"] {"Batudhun"}
["Bavdai"] {"Bavdai"}
["Bavaboge"] {"Bavaboge"}
["Bavjeitu"] {"Bavjeitu"}
["Berkei"] {"Berkei"}
["Berkhungis"] {"Berkhungis"}
["Chagla"] {"Chagla"}
["Chagoke"] {"Chagoke"}
["Chaglai"] {"Chaglai"}
["Chagdu"] {"Chagdu"}
["Chagduk"] {"Chagduk"}
["Chagdhun"] {"Chagdhun"}
["Chindu"] {"Chindu"}
["Egiboge"] {"Egiboge"}
["Egishan"] {"Egishan"}
["Gendai"] {"Gendai"}
["Genduk"] {"Genduk"}
["Genke"] {"Genke"}
["Ghazandu"] {"Ghazandu"}
["Ghazatai"] {"Ghazatai"}
["Ghazuk"] {"Ghazuk"}
["Guyke"] {"Guyke"}
["Huleblai"] {"Huleblai"}
["Huleke"] {"Huleke"}
["Irindhuk"] {"Irindhuk"}
["Iringis"] {"Iringis"}
["Jagadai"] {"Jagadai"}
["Jagu"] {"Jagu"}
["Jebuk"] {"Jebuk"}
["Jeblai"] {"Jeblai"}
["Kaiblis"] {"Kaiblis"}
["Kaizuk"] {"Kaizuk"}
["Khodhun"] {"Khodhun"}
["Khoduk"] {"Khoduk"}
["Khoblai"] {"Khoblai"}
["Khogadai"] {"Khogadai"}
["Khotai"] {"Khotai"}
["Khuzuk"] {"Khuzuk"}
["Khushan"] {"Khushan"}
["Khundu"] {"Khundu"}
["Khugis"] {"Khugis"}
["Kubuk"] {"Kubuk"}
["Kubadai"] {"Kubadai"}
["Kubeke"] {"Kubeke"}
["Kundu"] {"Kundu"}
["Mamdu"] {"Mamdu"}
["Mamdhuk"] {"Mamdhuk"}
["Mamgis"] {"Mamgis"}
["Menglai"] {"Menglai"}
["Mengadai"] {"Mengadai"}
["Menguk"] {"Menguk"}
["Mongu"] {"Mongu"}
["Monduk"] {"Monduk"}
["Mongatai"] {"Mongatai"}
["Nayuk"] {"Nayuk"}
["Naydhun"] {"Naydhun"}
["Ogoshin"] {"Ogoshin"}
["Ogoshila"] {"Ogoshila"}
["Ogodhun"] {"Ogodhun"}
["Shidedai"] {"Shidedai"}
["Shideghuk"] {"Shideghuk"}
["Subuke"] {"Subuke"}
["Temudhuk"] {"Temudhuk"}
["Temudhun"] {"Temudhun"}
["Temublai"] {"Temublai"}
["Temugis"] {"Temugis"}
["Tsagatai"] {"Tsagatai"}
["Tasguk"] {"Tasguk"}
["Ugablai"] {"Ugablai"}
["Ugamysh"] {"Ugamysh"}
["Yesublai"] {"Yesublai"}
["Yesugis"] {"Yesugis"}
["Yesugatai"] {"Yesugatai"}
["Yesuk"] {"Yesuk"}
chilliwilli
08-04-2002, 00:10
Bah most of those names are repeated except they are in English, Mongol, and Chinese. For example Ogodei, Ogatai, and Ogadai Are exactly the same names except Ogodei is Mongol, Ogatai is Chinese, and Ogadai is English. Kind of weak. Oh well at least they got every important Mongol in there.
[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-03-2002).]
MagyarKhans Cham
08-04-2002, 00:20
and a list without Subudei, Subutai or Subutei aint complete
Stephen Hummell
08-04-2002, 00:52
Nayuk was in MI.
Emp. Conralius
08-04-2002, 01:02
Quote Originally posted by Stephen Hummell:
Nayuk was in MI.[/QUOTE]
Yea, he was a commander of Mongol Heavy Cavalrymen...
Orda Khan
08-04-2002, 06:12
They all were
.........Orda
------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Emp. Conralius
08-04-2002, 10:18
Quote Originally posted by Orda Khan:
They all were
.........Orda
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I don't follow...
Stephen Hummell
08-04-2002, 22:55
Quote Originally posted by Emp. Conralius:
Sorry, I don't follow...[/QUOTE]
He means they all were in MI.
Emp. Conralius
08-04-2002, 23:02
Quote Originally posted by Stephen Hummell:
He means they all were in MI.[/QUOTE]
They all couln't have been.
Orda Khan
08-04-2002, 23:49
Yup!
........Orda
------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
chilliwilli
08-05-2002, 00:20
Wow your right Magyar! He was one of The greatest commanders of all time what a shame. Well at least they got Jebe and Jochi both of them together almost equal Subedei. Also when it starts over from "A" again form there on those are just comon Mongol names they are no one special.
[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-04-2002).]
[This message has been edited by chilliwilli (edited 08-04-2002).]
Emp. Conralius
08-05-2002, 01:05
Quote Originally posted by Orda Khan:
Yup!
........Orda
[/QUOTE]
Ghengis wasn't a unit leader in the MI.
Orda Khan
08-05-2002, 08:30
Split your armies some more you'll find him.
Subedei or however you want to spell it is on the list. Take a look nearer the top.
As mentioned they are only names and mixtures of pronunciation. I would say Chingis we have Chingiss Ghengis and all are the same person. There is also Yeh Lu Chu T'sai who wasn't even Mongol let alone a commander, he was a Khitan administrator. They also double up. Just names
........Orda
------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
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