Egyptians

[MJF]

Having just concluded a campaign, i am interested in retrying the Egyptians in XL.

However, i have never really had too much success with their armies. Because i usually play as catholic faction, the foundation of my armies are usually a block of solid infantry types (halberdiers, CMAA etc).

What would be recommended for Eggys?
I know they have Saracen Infantry but i find their poor morale often makes them rout quite quickly. More importantly, they dont seem to have any infantry to actually do the real work. Arab infantry are rubbish, and Heavy Arab infantry aren't much better.

Elite Abyssinian Guards might be the answer but ive never really survived long enough to try them out in any serious way.

Any recommendations as to an Eggy army that can actually stand and fight??

[macsen rufus]

First off you need to stop thinking like a Catholic :laugh4:

The Egyptians (and Muslim factions in general) aren't really suited to slug-fest fighting styles. Their strength lies in speed and agility and missiles, and you must use more tactical finesse than you might bother with as a Catholic faction.

It's years since I've played the Egyptians myself, and never in XL (so thanks for the suggestion for my next Muslim campaign :2thumbsup: ), but what I recall as being most useful were Mamluk horse archers, Mamluk cavalry (they're not knights, but they do have AP bonus), and Futuwwas (or Nizaris - whichever one the Egyptians get). Saracen infantry are good all-rounders in early but soon get outdated though they still will form the heavy core of your army, and the Muwahid foot are also pretty handy - remember these are an OFFENSIVE spear unit and can cause quite a bit of damage. And of course for your desert campaigning, do not neglect the noble camel.

Abyssinian guard do have a high attack, which is AP, but their defence is pretty poor, so they are more of a tide-turning reserve, just to tip the balance and cause a rout. You can't use them the way you would CMAAs, for instance. I can't recall whether Egypt gets ghazi infantry or not, but again a high-attack, low-defence unit. They can do a lot of damage, but are quickly used up. Try to keep them for a decisive moment, use them to flank pinned units and in ambushes.

Tactically you should use your speed, agility and missiles to break up the enemy rather than slamming them with a heavy weight, which is all the Catholics need to do. It's an approach I tend to call "taking the enemy apart". Pull vulnerable units out of line with your MHAs, shoot them up a bit more with some desert archers, then when they are isolated pounce with something tougher, maybe Mamluk cav. Delay full-on melee as long as possible, and try to get troublesome units out of the way as soon as you can. Remember always that fighting inside a tin can is a tiring business, and running around after troops they cannot catch is even more tiring. And tired troops fight less well, and have lower morale.

I've never found much use for Arab infantry, either, but at least in XL they have javelins (or throwing spears?) - either way a ranged AP attack that can be devastating if you ever get it to work properly (ie keeping out of melee yet still able to fire before skirmishing away...) When you get it just right they can see off royal knights.

Hope that gives you a few ideas to try :charge:

[Agent Miles]

I’ve never played XL, but in vanilla MTW/VI I use a stack of four Saracen Infantry, three Nizari, four Mamluk HA’s and four Ghulam Cav with a general. SI are actually identical to the stats for Chiv Sergeants. Produce them where you have a Mosque and a Master Spearmaker and they will do just fine moralewise. Nizari are great. I tech straight to them, ignoring any other buildings. They beat Janissary Infantry. Once you take Armenia, you can also switch to Armenian Heavy Cav.
I don’t do any of the fancy stuff. Skirmish with the Nizari and MHA’s, and hold the line with the SI. The Nizari can also flank. Then send in the Heavy Cavalry of your choice and chase down the routers with the MHA’s.

[Martok]

macsen rufus and Agent Miles have the right idea. The Egyptians' unit roster is more geared towards utilizing speed & finesse, as opposed a standard Catholic-style slug-fest -- fire massive volleys of arrows into your enemy, and use your speed to make your more heavily-armoured opponent chase you all over the map (thereby exhausting themsevles). The Eggie's only real weakness is their lack of a decent heavy cavalry and heavy infantry unit, but this is easily offset by their good selection of hybrid units. I've compiled below an assessment of the main units in the Egyptian roster, and my opinions of each.

Abyssinian Guards & Heavy Abyssinian Guards: Excellent attack, decent morale, so-so defense. The heavy versions have better defense, but they're still not very well-suited to standard stand-up, drag-out, knockdowns like the Catholics' CMAA.

Arab Infantry: In vanilla MTW/VI, they're admittedly not that great. In XL, however, I find they're actually quite good at taking on more heavily armoured, slower-moving units. This is especially true if they're paired together with another unit such as Saracen or Muwahid Infantry. Once their throwing spears have been expended (by which point the enemy should have suffered significant casualties), just charge them into the enemy's flanks and finish them off.

Bedouin Camel Warriors: The creme de la creme of any Eggie army. ~D Yes I kid, but I can also honestly say that these guys have won many a battle for me. It's true they're slow (compared to other cavalry), and their stats (attack, defense, morale) are only about average. However, they're cheap and easy to produce (in XL, only a fort is required to train them), and the morale penalty they inflict on enemy horse units is not to be underestimated. Even in the later part of my campaigns, I still find them to be useful.

Faris: A hybrid unit that can serve multiple functions, Faris are "light" heavy cavalry that use their bows to pepper the enemy with arrow fire. They have a solid charge, decent attack/defense, and good morale. Their relative lack of heavy armour gives them the advantage in arid/desert areas, but are still effective in the temperate zones as well. Just remember to not engage them one-on-one with heavier units by themselves -- pair them up with either Muwahid/Saracen Infantry and/or another cavalry unit.

Gazi Infantry: Shock troops with very high attack, poor defense, and ridiculously good morale -- they usually suffer 80% (or more) casualties before retreating! Best used to flank an enemy when a battle has reached a decisive moment, these guys can break the enemy if their attack is timed correctly. For this reason, they're often employed at the "moment of decision", when a battle has reached a crucial point.

Khwarazmian Cavalry: The only real heavy cavalry on the Eggie roster, but they're not that great IMHO. While they are heavily armoured and have good defense, their charge & attack is less than what you would expect from heavy cavalry, and their morale is only "okay". In addition, Khwarazmians have -- at least relative to their abilities -- rather high building requirements, as well as pretty stiff recruitment & maintenance costs. I might train a few of these guys, but overall I find them to be somewhat underpowered, especially compared to what they cost in terms of both florins and tech requirements.

Mamluk Cavalry: They're not anything special, but are still decent medium cavalry; they also get a +1 bonus when trained in Egypt. They can take on most units, although they should avoid engaging heavy infantry/cavalry head-on. Flanking heavy units is fine, however, as the Mamluks' armour-piercing ability can seriously damage their opponents.

Mamluk Horse Archers: They're basically HA's with a little better-than-normal melee ability. In addition to skirmishing with their bows, they actually make for a decent all-around light cavalry unit, capable of flanking attacks and chasing down routers. This is especially true when they're trained in the Sinai (+1 bonus).

Muwahid Infantry: Personally, I love these guys -- they're spearmen, they're fast, and they possess an excellent charge/attack value along with good defense & very good morale. They don't really have a standard role in the line of battle; but they're the ultimate utility unit, able to fulfill several different roles/missions. Need to quick plug a gap that's suddenly opend up in your lines? Need flankers? Need to kill those annoying horsies that are bugging you? Need someone to take and/or hold a crucial position while you summon reinforcements? Then send in the Muwahids!

Nizaris: A very good infantry hybrid unit, able to shower an enemy with arrows and then close to melee for the kill. (Not that they should go attacking Kataphractoi, of course!) They have excellent morale, and receive a +1 bonus when recruited in Syria.

Saracen Infantry: SI make for a solid main battle line, and (as Agent Miles indicated) any morale difficulties they may have can be at least partially remedied by recruiting them in a province with a mosque. The only true "pin 'em and stick 'em" unit on the Egyptian roster, Saracens aren't meant to truly kill the enemy so much as they're intnended to "hold the line".

[stson]

XL Egyptians (Ayyubids) are a good Muslim faction to play for traditional Catholic infantry players (like myself). I end up playing about half my battles using Catholic tactics, since the spear backbone of the Egyptians is usually strong enough to sap the life out of any cav charge. Abyssinian, Ghazi and camel (for the horses) flankers usually devastate AI units pinned by your SI, Muwahids, and even Nubian spearmen.

Nizaris make decent melee units once they have emptied their quivers and plunged into a shotup and exhausted (by the sun) enemy.

[Roark]

As has been mentioned, Syrian Nizaris dominate.

IMHO, they are the best skirmisher/flankers in the entire game, and although they are expensive, they will end up saving you lots of money and troops by crushing enemy units via the sheer impact of their flanking charge (and subsequently chasing down infantry routers on the field for ransom ie: they are fast).

And as Mithrandir would say... Camels, camels, camels.

All you really need for home defence is camels and skirmisher missile infantry. Simple. Fast hybrid archer/flankers are the only thing that really stymies Catholic armoured polearms (who, in XL, are near the top of the food chain).

[MJF]

thanks for that guys. some good tips.

i think i must be doing something wrong. I find that the enemy brushes my skirmishers seem aside like irritating gnats, proceeds to maul my line of SI, and when they rout, they cause loss of morale in all my other troops (who are still relatively intact) and the whole army just flees. Which then results in huge casualties as they run away.

but plenty of food for thought here. i'll give the eggys another go just as soon as i wrap up my french campaign. which incidentally, is the first time i have ever managed to achieve the Krak des Chevalier GA :beam:

[Betito]

Keep in mind that Saracens are NOT going to kill by themselves. Their best use is to hold while some sort of help arrives. You can try missile aid, and flanking with nizaris and gazis is always a good idea. If you come from a have infantry based faction, such as HRE, or the vikings in the VI campaign, the biggest change is that with Eggys you do not want ot charge frontally, but to resist the intial charge with your spears, meaning they should stand still so they get the formation bonus, then flank.

Master spearmaker + mosque + ribat + grand mosque(when and where you can) helps get their morale to even higher than feudal segeants, i think. Add a fine general(4 stars+) and there should be no problem on the morale

Mamluk cavalry can give quite a beating to western guys because of the armour piercing. Also, i was a fan of mamluk HAs and Faris. And Bedouin Camels with 1 valour can beat feudal (maybe even chivalric) knights

[Agent Miles]

Once I crushed a Turkish force as the Egyptians. All they had left after the rout was a couple HA’s. I got tired of chasing them, so I spread my SI units out into lines only two ranks deep and bulldozed them into a corner where the Saracens killed them off. Everything works if you let it.:yes:

[Martok]

Mamluk cavalry can give quite a beating to western guys because of the armour piercing. Also, i was a fan of mamluk HAs and Faris. And Bedouin Camels with 1 valour can beat feudal (maybe even chivalric) knights
Good point about the Mamluks have in the armour-piercing ability. Also, Gah! I forgot about the Faris! Excuse me while I go edit my previous post.... :wall:

[Roark]

thanks for that guys. some good tips.

i think i must be doing something wrong. I find that the enemy brushes my skirmishers seem aside like irritating gnats, proceeds to maul my line of SI, and when they rout, they cause loss of morale in all my other troops (who are still relatively intact) and the whole army just flees. Which then results in huge casualties as they run away.

but plenty of food for thought here. i'll give the eggys another go just as soon as i wrap up my french campaign. which incidentally, is the first time i have ever managed to achieve the Krak des Chevalier GA :beam:

Wrapped your Saracen Infantry's flanks with high morale swords/axes with cavalry nearby, and they'll last a lot longer before they go crying to mama.

Maybe consider replacing your Saracen Infantry with Muwahids. Intersperse your Muwahids with swords/axes. This creates a much more flexible front line with which you can take the initiative, as the enemy approaches your lines, by charging. Ghazi and Muwahids work well together, as they are both fast.

It's true that Muslim-style combat is very different to playing as Catholic. You'll start to think differently the more you play them.

[Roark]

Oh, and congrats on the Krak.

[Betito]

I don't remember very well here, but... i think that, in vanilla MTW Eggys had also Ghulam Cavalry and Armenian Heavy Cav(well, in the armenia region). AHC is probably the best shock cavalry they can get, at least much better than Khwarazmian.

Edit: Nvm, they do get ti, just read Agent Miles's post... anyway, those guys are the closest thing to Western knight you can get. Valour 2 from armenia and master horse breeder is a kicker