The Royal Guards

[Emp. Conralius]

I have a question about the issue of Ghulam Knights and Royal knights. Here it is: As you progress toward different eras, do the Royal Knights and Ghulam Knights change in appearence? Do the Early Royal Knights look different from the High Royal Knights?

Here'sa list of the Bodyguards for each Faction's royalty:

Byzantines- Varangian Guards
English- Royal Knights
France- Royal Knights
HRE/Germany- Royal Knights
Italians- Royal Knights
Poland- Royal Knights
Russia- Boyars
Danes- Royal Knights
Almohads- Ghulam Bodyguards
Egyptians- Ghulam Bodyguards
Turks- Siphahi de Porte
Spain- Royal Knights

[This message has been edited by Emp. Conralius (edited 07-29-2002).]

[Stephen Hummell]

Yes, look at the descriptions of the units at the ez-board. It goes from mail in the early era to full plate armour in the late era.

[DarknScaly]

Varangian Guard are a specialised foot unit - not the royal mounted bodyguard

[Krypteia]

who said they had to be mounted to be royal??

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote Originally posted by DarknScaly:
Varangian Guard are a specialised foot unit - not the royal mounted bodyguard[/QUOTE]

trust me, they are:

Varangian Guard
The Varangian Guard are part of the Imperial Household, a force of mercenary bodyguards. They have a history of being tough, loyal and resourceful men from the North. Over the centuries, their ranks have included Vikings (and a Viking King!), Saxons and Englishmen. Now, they are sometimes a ceremonial unit.

[Galestrum]

im pretty sure they are byzantium is somewhat different

the emporer will be deployed with kataphraktoi (in the new campaign description of the Egyptians the emporer is with Kataphraktoi not the Varangian Guard)

historically the varangian guard was the household guard and thus a royal guard, but that does not mean the byzantine royalty will be part of the varangian unit

furthermore, on DD's website they show the general of the varangian guard, and it is NOT Emporer Alexius, whom was the emporer at that time when the game starts

you could be right, but im fairly certain, from the screenies i have seen, that you are not =)

[Kongamato]

You got it wrong here, my friends. After closer examination, Alexius is a Prince, and the Varangian Guards are led by Lord Maniakes. The Emperor is not in this story.

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote Originally posted by Galestrum:
im pretty sure they are byzantium is somewhat different

the emporer will be deployed with kataphraktoi (in the new campaign description of the Egyptians the emporer is with Kataphraktoi not the Varangian Guard)

historically the varangian guard was the household guard and thus a royal guard, but that does not mean the byzantine royalty will be part of the varangian unit

furthermore, on DD's website they show the general of the varangian guard, and it is NOT Emporer Alexius, whom was the emporer at that time when the game starts

you could be right, but im fairly certain, from the screenies i have seen, that you are not =)[/QUOTE]

At DD's site the Varangian Guard were the Emperor's (or in this case, the Governor of Constantinople's) unit.

before jumping to conclusions, please access this link to DD's site to clarafy the issue:
http://www.fourbelowzero.com/games/strategy/MTW/campaign/byzants/images/1087const.jpg

[This message has been edited by Emp. Conralius (edited 07-29-2002).]

[Emp. Conralius]

a quote from DD's site:

Our "man" in Constaninople is the leader of the Varangian Guard - an elite unit and not one to be left moldering in a castle... and with the massive farm income and rich trading types its likely he would turn corrupt or sloven in anycase.

[Galestrum]

that quote provides nothing definitive, as i said i may be wrong BUT

the Governor of constantinople is a title you assign just like a duke or chancellor, why one would give your faction leader a title is beyond me (if its even possible)

and as said before, the egyptian campaign has the emporer alexius with kataphraktoi not varangians

the great thing is NO ONE here KNOWS hehe, unless someone is in beta =P

and Lord Maniakes or what not is not your faction leader of that feel fairly certain

[Galestrum]

furthermore, if you read DD's description of the english campaign, when you highlight a faction leader, on either side you will find a ring denoting he is married or not and on right side of picture a crown....

look at the varangian leader picture again and tell me if you see a crown there =)

[Galestrum]

here are the links showing that faction leaders have crowns from the english campaign
http://www.fourbelowzero.com/games/strategy/MTW/campaign/english.htm

actual picture of a faction leader (crown)
http://www.fourbelowzero.com/games/strategy/MTW/images/1087king.jpg

egyptian campaign description
http://pc.ign.com/articles/365/365869p1.html

[Galestrum]

some quotes from faction preview

"Prince Alexius rode at the head of his personal guard, the Kataphraktoi. Both men and horses were so heavily armoured that the earth shook at their passing. Maniakes marched at the head of the Varangian Guard, the palace guard from Byzantium"

"Prince Alexius didn't even glance at his army"

every description of prince alexios refers to it being "his" army and himself being in charge of the entire army

furthermore the kataphraktoi are caller personal bodyguard whereas the varagians are referred to as the "palace guard"

there are many elite units in the game, the varangian guard are merely the equivalent of western europes "best" heavy infantry nothing more

you must remember that the byzantine military hierarchy was far different than the western mode, therefore there will be a noticeable difference in terminology

i could be wrong yet again, but history and thourough examination of the screenies and written material will bear out my opinion methinks =)

[Galestrum]

additionally, please note that the governor has no influence rating, while the king of england has one

one of the major bonuses og the leader of byzantium was greater than normal influence, odd that the greatest leader in christendom at the time had no influence at ALL and less than a newly formed country on the fringe of europe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Stephen Hummell]

Well Emp., you lost this bout.

[Stephen Hummell]

So the Royal guard for the byzantines Are kataphratoi.

[Galestrum]

also hehe =p

the Varangian leader has a loyalty rating? are you going to betray yourself?!?!!?!?!

notice the king of england has NO loyalty rating, BUT has an influence rating!!

yet the varangian leader HAS NO influence rating

[Emp. Conralius]

I know when I'm beat, and yep, I'm beat. But don't get used to it.....j/j!

[This message has been edited by Emp. Conralius (edited 07-29-2002).]

[Emp. Conralius]

Since we've shed some light on the Varangian guard/Katathratoi issue, will this be the same instance as far as the Abbysian Guard and the Ghulams (Egptians)? I think it is.

[Emp. Conralius]

And I'm vey happy about the fact that the Royal nights and Gulam Knights chang in appearence throught the durtion of the game's eras!

[Kongamato]

I still am not convinced that the Kataphractoi are the Royal Guards for Byzantium. It could be that Prince Alexius is treated like a heir in STW, being only a general, but I have also read accounts of western princes with a Royal Knight bodyguard.

We will only know for sure when the Emperor himself sets foot upon the battlefield.

[Galestrum]

in actual history Alexios was the emporer in 1087

Alexios I Komnenos (1081-1118)

the writer may call him price and so may CA in the game, but he was in fact the emporer,

all royal blood have the same bodyguard type

in the english campaign DD refers to a captured French prince with his royal kinght bodyguard of 20

i would find it odd that Byzantium is the only faction with an infantry personal guard, as oppossed to cavalry, not to mention the historical inaccuracy of it

emporers and kings dont walk, they ride hehe

[Galestrum]

furthermore,

DD posted the starting units for byzantium, according to the screenies the varangian guard leader was NOT of royal blood and they start with ONLY 1 varangian guard unit

[DrNo]

Galestrum, you went to alot of trouble to disprove something when you could easily have looked in unitstats file from demo.
If you have the demo that is http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Kataphraktoi are indeed BYZANTINE leader unit.

Here's the rest of them from stats file(Demo V2):

Boyar - RUSSIAN,NOVGOROD
ChivalricKnights - ARAGONESE, BURGUNDIAN
LateRoyalGhulamKnights - EGYPTIAN, ALMOHAD

LateRoyalKnights - ENGLISH, FRENCH, GERMAN_HRE, HUNGARIAN, ITALIAN, PAPIST, POLISH, SICILIAN, SPANISH

GoldenHordeHeavyCavalry - GOLDEN_HORDE
Housecarle - DANISH
SipahiofthePorte - TURKISH
SwissPikemen - SWISS

[DarknScaly]

Actually the Danish are Royal Knights also - afaik Housecarls dont exist in the game.

Royal Knights now come in 3 flavours also:

Early, Mid and high which relate to how heavily armoured they are etc... roughly they are now equivalent to:

Early Royal Knights (Feudal Knights)
Mid RK - Chivalric Knights
Late - Super-Heavy, bit like Gothics really.


The Byzantine Kataphraktoi are "always the same" and thus always "super heavy", which gives them a distinct advantage at the start in early era but fades as time goes on.

You find this is a theme with a lot of factions - they have advantages and disadvantages as time goes on - THe Danish, for example, have Vikings early on which are dead cheap and positiely nasty until the other factions build up more professional troops, generally by around 1200 Vikings are more of a liability than anything else but up to certainly 1150 or so they are very potent...as such danissh Ai tends to be very expansionist early on.. likewise for their Longships (bonus for those built in Denmark) early on they can dominate but fall short once caravels and better ships appear.

[Galestrum]

no i dont have the demo hehe http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

and even if i did im not compy literate enough to go through files hehe

but its good to see i was right as i wouldnt want the varabgian guard guarding my leaders personally

[Emp. Conralius]

Though I supported the idea of the Varangians being the Royal Bodyguards of the Byzantines, it would be somewhat odd to have your emperor or royal prince be lead in by a group of foot soldiers.

[czaralex]

Now that we have solved the Byzantine and Danish Royal Guard problems, I want to refer your attention to the Russia Side. AFter all how stupid would the Grand Knize of Russia be to have Boyars as his personal guard, they are the guys who killed every Grand Knize of Russia who was assasinated! Thats like having Julies Ceaser's guard made up of Brutus and the rest of Roman Senate http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif !!

[Funky Phantom]

Looks like CA didnt research some of their factions too well :\

I think the fact they included "Russia" in the game was just an attempt to fill what would otherwise be a power vaccuum in eastern Europe... but i dont wanna get into the whole debate about Russia so please dont someone get angry at me for saying this, its just my opinion, we're all entitled to one... :P

[DarknScaly]

Quote Originally posted by czaralex:
Now that we have solved the Byzantine and Danish Royal Guard problems, I want to refer your attention to the Russia Side. AFter all how stupid would the Grand Knize of Russia be to have Boyars as his personal guard, they are the guys who killed every Grand Knize of Russia who was assasinated! Thats like having Julies Ceaser's guard made up of Brutus and the rest of Roman Senate http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif !![/QUOTE]

Yeah OR making a unit called the "Praetorian Guard" and putting them in charge of protecting the Roman Emporer....

...
...

[Stephen Hummell]

I don't care that much for Russia, Seeing that in the high period they will get creamed. And that they're are so far away from real factions I don't pose them as a threat, unless they have a leader like Genghis Khan.

The most dominate faction in my eyes are the Almohad, cause if they beat C-Spain They have an open shot at Europe. But seeing that they're on the desert, income will be a problem, so they will have to rely on trade throughout the game. Untill the late period.

[czaralex]

Quote Originally posted by Stephen Hummell:
[B]I don't care that much for Russia, Seeing that in the high period they will get creamed. And that they're are so far away from real factions I don't pose them as a threat, unless they have a leader like Genghis Khan.

B][/QUOTE]

Thats exactly what Fredrick the Great said, and you know what happened to him, I see the same fate for you. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Funky Phantom]

Even when i consider a faction weak, id still give them the neccessary respect and send a sizeable army their way, no point in taking chances http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Also i have a question about trade (apologies for drifting off topic somewhat but trade was mentioned by Stephen a few posts back). Is trade really profitable enough to sustain an empire? In STW there was no way in hell you could leave all your farmland as it was and survive on just your ports income, i know there are a lot trade resources in MTW, but will the desert really have much in it to trade?

I like Almohad as a faction as well and i think theyre probably the best placed Muslim faction (apart from Turkey perhaps), but their income is what worries me :\

[This message has been edited by Funky Phantom (edited 07-30-2002).]

[DarknScaly]

Flanders Province ~1300AD
Farm Income 900 florins (ish)
Trade Income 6000 florins (ish)

[Funky Phantom]

Ok, so youve convinced me trade can be (slightly) profitable :P

But how about desert provinces?

[DarknScaly]

depends entirely on what trade resources they have and how big a fleet you have and how large a merchant you have and....

So much of the game is down to how you play it and the situation each turn, its impossible to say "X province = Y income"..plus theres variable tax rates per province and then the Governor effects via Acumen ratings AND V&Vs which can ALL alter income.

[Funky Phantom]

Good point.

Wow, the game really isnt so black and white as Shogun was http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Xiahou]

Quote Originally posted by Galestrum:
in actual history Alexios was the emporer in 1087

Alexios I Komnenos (1081-1118)

the writer may call him price and so may CA in the game, but he was in fact the emporer,

all royal blood have the same bodyguard type

in the english campaign DD refers to a captured French prince with his royal kinght bodyguard of 20

i would find it odd that Byzantium is the only faction with an infantry personal guard, as oppossed to cavalry, not to mention the historical inaccuracy of it

emporers and kings dont walk, they ride hehe[/QUOTE]

Not to nit-pick, but I doubt it was the emperor fighting in the battle you described. The battle in the story took place in 1097 and Prince Alexius was killed during it and as you said, Alexios I Komnenos reigned until 1118. Maybe prince Alexius was a son of his? Also it was fairly rare for Emperors to leave Constantinople to fight wars, especially so far from home.

I guess its really a moot point since it looks like the kataphraktoi will indeed be the "royal guard" unit.

[Galestrum]

[Xiahou]

Well this has become pointless anyhow as the battle never even occurred. Since the battle is made up then maybe its a prince named alexius or the emperor himself- but since it says prince I assume it prince.

[Emp. Conralius]

Quote Originally posted by Xiahou:
Well this has become pointless anyhow as the battle never even occurred. Since the battle is made up then maybe its a prince named alexius or the emperor himself- but since it says prince I assume it prince.[/QUOTE]

I'm gonna have to go with this guy...but it did have some relevence to the thread.

[DarkSerpent96]

HMmm