EB Preview : Hayasdan Reforms

[Foot]

Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.

Today is a very special preview for me. The following work has been long in the making, and for a faction dear to my heart. Hayasdan has always lacked that special something, a campaign that is given a definite goal to attain and that changes throughout.

Thus it is with great pleasure that I introduce:


EB Preview : Hayasdan Reforms

As always there are so many different people to thank; Kull and Blacksnail for their advice on the coding, Atilius for advice on scripting and BozosLiveHere for traits. The PersianCataphract and Artavazd for their help with history and translations, Uranos for the lovely UI images used down the right-hand side, and Xprime and Stefan25 for the little treats at the end.

This preview is best seen at a resolution of 1280x1024, and may not look as cool on lower resolutions.


https://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1716/dividerarmenia9xt.gif

The Hayasdan Reforms : Introductionhttps://img172.imageshack.us/img172/1621/haynakhararakantiknapahir5.gif

The first Persian Empire was that of Cyrus the Great, the Achaemenid. With the fall of Darius III Codomannus, the Achaemenid Empire was no more.

The second Persian Empire was that of Arsaces I, and it was known as the Arsacid Empire, or the Parthian Empire. These Parthians, who were once nomads, carved out an empire that lasted twice as long as the Achaemenid Empire.

But the Arsacid kings were not inheritors of the Achaemenids by blood, but by tradition. The history of the Achaemenid Empire had been lost and was replaced with myth and tradition - the relief at Bisutun was already being wrongly attributed to the legendary Queen Semiramis by the 4th century BC.
https://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5315/steppecavalryhyesparapehp5.png
There were, however, survivors of the old dynasty of the Achaemenids , who could claim lineage to Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes - and, more importantly, who had the power to do so.

The Orontid dynasty (Yervanduni) of Hayasdan were one such family. Descended from Orontes I (Yervand), satrap of the 13th satrapy, and then later the 10th as well, in the 4th century BC. Orontes I was reportedly of royal Bactrian blood, but had also been wed to the daughter of Artaxerxes II, Rhodogune.

Orontes' power and respect at the Persian Court was enough to have himself pardoned of treason when he led a satrapal revolt against the Persian King.

https://img521.imageshack.us/img521/6818/easterncavalrypersianeakf3.pngIn 272 BC, the kingdom of Hayasdan, still beneath the rule of the Orontid dynasty, was not the homogeneous kingdom that would later mark its rise to power in the Caucasus. Whilst able to withstand the political pressure of Arche Seleukeia from within her mountain fortress, the disparate tribes of Hayasdan could not pose any threat beyond the confines of that self-same fortress.

But, perhaps, had these peoples of Hayasdan been united sooner, beneath one king, the star of that kingdom in the Caucasus would have risen before the Parthians could fall upon the Hellenic Empire and claim Persia for themselves. And with the might of the Caucasus behind them, perhaps just perhaps, the second Persian Empire might not have been called Arsacid - but Orontid!




https://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1716/dividerarmenia9xt.gif

The Pan-Caucasus Empire Reform

https://img469.imageshack.us/img469/3650/haykavakazasparabarapc1.gifHayasdan's position at the start of the game is tenuous. The only thing stopping the kings of Seleukos from marching into her lands is because the might of Arche Seleukeia is focused elsewhere. The kingdom is not united, and it will take a strong king to do so.

When Hayasdan begins now, she will start with a Type III government, and for the moment the higher level governments - Type I and Type II - will be unavailable to her. This represents the fractured and uncentralised government that must have characterised the early reigns of the first Yervanduni Kings. Hayasdan's populations are spread across the valleys and mountainsides of the Caucasus, and are impossible to travel between in winter, and difficult at most other times. It will take a strong hand and a firm grip to unite the tribes of Hayasdan and of the Caucasus beneath one strong and central rule.

This process, as represented in the game, is possible after important infrastructure is built:

https://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3708/roadssmallys5.jpghttps://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3655/hayaspethetzelazorji2.gif
Roads will be required to strengthen the pathways and passes over the mountains and between the valleys, so that even in winter the rule of one king can be felt by all.


https://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7855/marketsmallcd2.jpg
Better markets will need to be set up, to help strengthen economic ties between the valleys and enrich the populace with foreign goods and the chance to sell their wares even further abroad.


https://img187.imageshack.us/img187/5894/govvillasmallxn5.jpghttps://img366.imageshack.us/img366/3010/hayartishpadalb3.gif
A more urbanised population will also be important, a central authority is hindered not helped by a dispersed population; large population centres will focus authority and widen its influence.


https://img370.imageshack.us/img370/7373/garrisonsmallyo1.jpg
And to guard these new population centres, town garrisons will need to be set up to protect the citizens of the kingdom from attack; only without fear can a people prosper and grow.


https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/474/pcermapcl6.th.jpg (https://img267.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pcermapcl6.jpg)https://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8250/hayshubanfradakxa7.gifOnce authority in the Kingdom of Hayasdan is achieved, once a Type I Government is built in Armavir, the authority of the Hai King will be unparalleled in the Caucasus. A Pan-Caucasus Empire would offer a powerful position from which to push into Anatolia or into the Arche Seleukeia itself.

This reform will allow the player to unite the Caucasus by building Type I governments in Hayasadan, Pokr Hayk, and Sophene; and by building Type II governments in Kartli, Egrisi, Aghvan, Adurbadegan, and Pontos Paralios.

Uniting the Caucasus beneath one crown will give the Hai Arkah the right to call himself a King of Kings!



https://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1716/dividerarmenia9xt.gif

The Orontid Empire Reform: Introduction

https://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2770/haynizaggundmi2.gifHistorically, Hayasdan was never in a position to rebuild the Achaemenid Empire in her own image. Arche Seleukeia’s control over Persis, Elymais and Media was, for much of its early history, not pestered by internal dissent and instability.

This was largely thanks to the policy, begun by Alexander, to work with the local aristocracy and respect the native traditions. It was only the twin pressures of the Romans and the Parthians that began the inevitable dissolution of the Seleukid Empire.

By this time Hayasdan’s economy and military had become organised under the new king Artashes, whose successes in battle helped form Hayasdan into a homogenous kingdom. Had this transition happened under an earlier king, before the rise of Parthian power in the east, and had this new, more powerful kingdom been successful in expanding into the northern lands of Arche Seleukeia, then it is entirely possible that the second Persian Empire (counting the Achaemenid as the first) could have been Orontid (Yervanduni) and not Arsacid.

https://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7325/haymadaasabarakb5.gifCould it have been possible? Could Hayasdan, with the weight of the Caucasus behind her, have forged Persia, Media and Mesopotamia once more into an Empire that spanned from the lands of Bactria to the lands of Syria, and - beyond?

When Hayasdan first moves into the lands of Mesopotamia, Syria and Media she will only be able to build Type III or Type IV governments. These represent the continuation of an Hellenic elite in the province and will allow the recruitment of soldiers armed and trained in the Hellenic style, alongside low-level eastern troops.

But if the Hai Arkah comes to Persis and Elymais, and the cities of Persepolis and Susa, as a conqueror and law-maker, then he may make a claim to the throne of the Achaemenid Empire.

https://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4395/easternskirmishercavalrin4.pngThe Persian Kingship is one shrouded in tradition and myth. The traits of a Persian King are marked upon the many reliefs throughout the old Achaemenid Kingdom.

He must be favoured by the gods, manifest in his success in battle. He must be a righter of wrongs, and bring peace and order to the land. He must proclaim himself to be of the Aryans, so that the people know that he is one of their own. His history must be one of hardship and toil as an ordinary man destined for great things, just as Cyrus and Arsaces were robbers according to legend. He must claim descent from past authority in Persia.

All these things paint the image of a just and mighty ruler, fit for the throne of Persia!



https://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1716/dividerarmenia9xt.gif

The Orontid Empire Reform: Processes

https://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9100/haypantodapoigq6.gifThe process, as represented in game, is a complex one.

https://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7422/prmap1cy5.th.jpg (https://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prmap1cy5.jpg)Firstly, the Hai Arkah must arrive in Persis with the blessings of Ahura Mazda, or Aramazd in the Armenian Pantheon. Great battles have been fought, and the enemies of good righteous people been vanquished; the cities of Mesopotamia, Media and Elymais must have been grasped from the iron rule of Arche Seleukeia.

The Hai Arkah must also have show his work by uniting the Caucasus Mountains beneath one king (see the Pan-Caucasus Empire Reform above).


https://img516.imageshack.us/img516/4710/haythanvarepayoa9.gifThese newly acquired provinces must also be placed under the rule of a suitable and loyal subject; a satrap of either Hellenic, Persian or Armenian stock - a Type III Government.

The people of Elymais and of Persis will be the first to welcome their new King with open arms.

The transition from a Type III Government to a Type II Government in Persis and Elymais follows the same path for all provinces in the Orontid Empire Reform area, so explaining it for one province explains it for all.

https://img392.imageshack.us/img392/8936/easterncolonyph0.jpgThe first step is to build the policy building called Royal Administration, the precursor to a full-scale transition from a Type III Government to a Type II Government in the the province. In a perfect world the Satrapal system would need very little central
interference, but power corrupts and the https://img459.imageshack.us/img459/6402/hellenisticinfantrypantuw4.pngmassive distances and decentralised authority of an Empire can mean that Satraps or local
governors may defy the Suzerain and King.


https://img234.imageshack.us/img234/5638/easternpersiapartsz3.jpg (https://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=persiapartdescriptionmr3.jpg)In the provinces within the Orontid Empire Reform zone a new policy building will now be available. The Conquerer Comes ... begins the process of removing the Hellenic settlers and ruling elite from the land and returning control to the old Persian clans and local rulers - who enjoyed power under the Achaemenid Empire - as well as introducing loyal Armenian clans. This process of political and social reform will take years and cause much unrest amongst the population.


https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/5807/easternexpansionod5.jpg
A script will now check a set of conditions in other provinces (see map below), if the conditions return true then after a couple of turns it will
https://img107.imageshack.us/img107/8061/easterninfantrykardakaidt9.pngcreate the Expansion Precursor building in the province, which will allow the construction of a Type II Government.


https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/1360/easterngov2js9.jpgThe building of the Type II Government (after destroying the Type III and rebuilding the Government Precursor) is not the end of the transition, as the population are still not peaceful nor are the new powers in the province safely seated upon their thrones - the land is too unstable. What is required is the building of the military infrastructure to solidify the rule of the new Persian King.


https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/4925/easterncitybarracksh1mc5.jpg
The construction of the Town Barracks and Stables represents much more than a simple upgrading of the military infrastructure of a region, the time taken to build the MIC level up this high also represents the settling of the region under its new rulers and beneath the
crown of a new Persian King.
https://img388.imageshack.us/img388/9080/haysyrianarcherslp4.gif

https://img122.imageshack.us/img122/5716/easternpersiafulljt9.jpg (https://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=persiafulldescriptionwt7.jpg)The final stage of this process is the removal of the penalties that represented the unrest and civil disorder resulting from the political and social reforms in the province. Now these changes are over (for the most part), the building, ... and Brings Peace and Order, can be built, which returns the penalties back to normal. Once this building is constructed the process can begin in the next tier of the reforms (see below).


The Orontid Empire Reforms are tiered, and the process is one of consolidation before expansion. Provinces within the reform zone are grouped into 3s and 4s and only once each province within the group has been fully reformed (by constructing the policy building ... and Brings Peace and Order) can the next group of provinces begin the process of being reformed. Also, all provinces in the tier must have started the process of
being reformed before the script will place the Expansion Precursor in any one of them.

In addition the centre of the reform zone are the two provinces Elymais and Persis. The reform tiers to the east and west are completely separate, and focusing on either of the directions to the detriment of the other is entirely possible. In other words, reforming provinces in the east would not require doing any reforms in the west and vice versa.


https://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8182/prmap2ml6.jpg

Tier 1: Persis, Elymais

Tier 2W: Media, Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Charax Spasinou
Tier 3W: Adiabene, Assyrie, Tadmor
Tier 4W: Syria, Syria Koile, Kilikia

Tier 2Ea: Hyrkania, Khoarene, Gabiene
Tier 2Eb: Gabiene, Karmania
Tier 3Ea: Astauene, Parthyaia, Aria
Tier 3Eb: Aria, Drangiane, Arachosia, Gedrosia
Tier 4E: Margiane, Baktria, Paropamisadai

In the Eastward Expansion, two of the tiers have been split up into Part A and Part B. The individual parts can be reformed separately, but both Part A and Part B must be reformed before the next tier can be reformed.



https://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1716/dividerarmenia9xt.gif

And of course, what would be a Kingdom, either of Hayasdan, the Caucasus or Persia, without a King? And thus, today we present the Hayasdan Family Member:
https://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1883/haigeneral1qk6.th.jpg (https://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haigeneral1qk6.jpg)https://img365.imageshack.us/img365/2799/haigeneral1aee0.th.jpg (https://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haigeneral1aee0.jpg)https://img462.imageshack.us/img462/1346/haigeneral2wx7.th.jpg (https://img462.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haigeneral2wx7.jpg)

And of course, what would a General be without his loyal bodyguard? So we present the Hai Early Bodyguard.
https://img462.imageshack.us/img462/188/haibodyguard1qx4.th.jpg (https://img462.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haibodyguard1qx4.jpg)https://img530.imageshack.us/img530/6537/haibodyguard2ze5.th.jpg (https://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haibodyguard2ze5.jpg)https://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2130/haibodyguard3xo4.th.jpg (https://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haibodyguard3xo4.jpg)



https://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1716/dividerarmenia9xt.gif

We hope you have enjoyed this preview of some of the EB content.
Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, and descriptions shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.
Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.
As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

We give special thanks to Imageshack (http://www.imageshack.us) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.

Have a great day!


Sincerely,

The Europa Barbarorum team.

[blank]

shouldn't this be pinned?

[Foot]

Yeah, if only my bosses gave me the power. Where's Krusader when you need him.

Foot

[keravnos]

WOW. Having seen the Hayasdan Reforms at their infancy, I can only stand in awe when I see them presented. Well done Foot! :horn:

[kambiz]

Wow very nice work EB team. I added "Hayasadan" to my wish list for the next release. Fighting alongside proud armenian comrades should be exciting.

Hail on Armenistan ,EB team and Foot the Great :D

[Basileus Seleukeia]

This is great news, especially as I'm a big fan of the Armenians! But I'm not a big fan of the idea of having to remove the greeks from the east...:no:

[Dooz]

That's sick. Great job EB.

[Foot]

You don't have to if you don't want to. There are benefits to keeping the Hellenes in Persia and Mesopotamia. For a start you get good access to some of their better troops, but that does mean that you lose out on the higher level persian troops.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

The only real thing you have to do is to righteously restore The Achaemenid World Order!

[Imperator]

Wow- that is awesome! How cool is it that I can choose between a Hellenic and Persian empire, and if I want to Persian-ize my empire, it will be properly difficult and rewarding! By the way, I think I saw some cool new units along the sidebar, very cool! :2thumbsup:

[Cybvep]

It's incredible, but will the AI be able to reform their provinces, too?

[Swordmaster]

:jawdrop:

Thanks Foot & Co.

[Foot]

No, there would be no way for the AI to recognise what to do. In deference to the Ai stupidity, as Hayasdan it will start with a type I government, and its government placement by script has not changed. As the player, of course, you will need to jump through hoops just to get a type I gov in your starting province.

Foot

[Conqueror]

I'm a bit confused about the east & west reforms - does the "tiers" map mean that you can eventually build a Type II goverment in all the colored provinces? But you need to complete the reforms in the neighbouring provinces closer to centre first? Are Type II's now exclusive to these lands, or can you build that government type "normally" elsewhere, like Asia Minor?

[Foot]

Type IIs are exclusive to the Caucasus (and Kappadokia and Kappadokia Pontika) and reformed provinces in the big map above (all coloured areas). The East & West reforms start in Persis and Elymais, but allow the player to focus on one direction over another instead of having to do both directions at once (in tiers eminating out of the centre of the map).

Foot

[Reno Melitensis]

I was always interested in playing Hyasdan or Pontus after my Romani campain is done. But this introduction to the Hyasdan increased by interest in them. Well done Foot.

Cheers.

[Conqueror]

Thanks for clearing that up :smiley2:

[Azazel]

Wow, I've been a major lurker on these forums for a while, but this new preview is making me come out of my cave... :yes:

I have yet to play as Hayasdan, but when this comes out...that faction will be near the head of the list. I really like the whole "kicking the greeks out" idea. I like to roleplay when I play my campaigns and this will be exciting har har...though, I could always just let the Greeks live side by side with me....:no: nah

[I Am Herenow]

The preview seems very nice, but I'm a bit confused about a few things.

This is about the historical background. Basically, are you saying that Pahlava are just pseudo-Persians (if we take "Persians" to mean Cyrus, Darius and co.) and that the Hayasdan are the true Persians who happen to be living in Armenia?
Will none of the features described happen if the player plays as someone other than Hayasdan (i.e. Hayasdan is controlled by the AI)?
What do the "a" and "b" province branches do in the east?
What does that first little map mean, with the red and the green?
And what does the second little map mean, which only has green?
You keep talking about a great leader and so on - is that just roleplay stuff, or will the game actually require a Family Member who possesses various Traits in order to first unite the Caucasus, and then the Empire? If so, what if that person dies halfway through? Isn't this whole concept very suceptible to something going wrong and totally screwing it up (kind-of like a huge Agoge)?
If someone were to play as Hayasdan, completely ignore this whole system and just "steamroll" all of Baktria and Arche Seleukeia (i.e. if they were to gain control of all the provinces that this system applies to) without changing a single thing in terms of government reform etc. - i.e. just the bog-standard destroy-old-government-and-shove-your-one-in - would the provinces be unmanageable for the player? Or, in fact, is it easier just to leave the provinces as they are instead of going through the messy process of "Persianisation"?
Is this system of tiered assimilation an actual reflection on an aspect of Hai culture/politics that was unique to them, or is it more a gameplay thing, to prevent "steamrolling"? If it is the latter:
Could similar systems (i.e. of needing to fully assimilate existing conquered territories before being able to move on and continue expansion) be implemented for other factions, to stop people "steamrolling" as them?
Could this system still be bypassed/ignored by determined steamrollers (see point 7)?
If someone did indeed go for the "Persianisation" method, would they be forced to Persianise every appropriate province in order to be able to move on to the next tier? Is there any chance to have some centres with local troops, and some with factional (like mixing Type II and Type IV Governments as the Romani or whoever)?
Are the actual steps that you would need to go through in the east and west the same (i.e. you'd have to build the same buildings etc.), just that the two areas are independent of each other?
What happened to the EB font in the preview?
Foot, which unit is the guy in your signature?I would be very grateful if someone could clear these points up for me :beam:

[NeoSpartan]

:jawdrop: DAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice work Foot and EB team.

[Foot]

1. The Pahlavans were a nomadic people who collapsed onto the province of Parthyaia like a tonne of rectangular building materials. They then took the name of the peoples of this province (before they had been the Parni) and conquered more and more of Persia and the other surrounding provinces. They certainly didn't come from Persia, nor had any connection to the Achaemenids. The ruling family of the Armenia at our start date are the Yervanduni, whose ancestor married into the Achaemenid family through the daughter of Artaxerxes II in the early 4th century BC. The Yervanduni family were not persian, but they had been powerful satraps (even viceroys) in the Achaemenid Empire until it fell. Yervand I (who was never King of Hayasdan) was Bactrian, but the later dynasts became firmly Armenian, especially once they had declared themselves kings. They were likely heavily persianised.

Orontid is the greek transliteration of Yervanduni.

2. The AI, given that it never expands as the Hayasdan, doesn't have access to these reforms and cannot set them off. The Ai wouldn't even know what to do anyway.

3. To reform a province in the Orontid Empire Reforms, you need to begin the process in all the provinces in the same tier. So if I wanted to begin the process of reforming the province Assyria by constructing the policy building, "The Conquerer Comes...", I would also need to construct that same building in Adiabene and Tadmor before the script would place the Expansion Precursor allowing me to build a type II. In the east there is a problem as two of the tiers are quite quite large. I have thus split them up. To reform the province of Hyrkania, I would also need to construct the building "the Conquerer Comes ..." in Gabiene and Khoarene, but I would not need to do it in Karmania. However to complete the tier and thus be able to reform the next one, I must have reformed all four provinces, Hyrkania, Gabiene and Khoarene together, and Gabiene and Karmania together (if Gabiene already has the Expansion Precursor, ie been reformed already as part of the other group in the tier, then it will still count when reforming the other provinces in either Part A or Part B (depending which one you did first).

4. These show the provinces that form the first reform, the Pan-Caucasus Empire Reform, the red provinces allow Type I Govs and the Green provinces allow Type II Govs. Obviously you must first complete the required tasks described for the Pan-Caucasus Empire Reforms.

5. The second map shows the provinces that must be held by Hayasdan before it can reform the provinces of Persis and Elymais. These provinces, highlighted in green, must have a Type III Gov built in all of them (they will allow Type III and Type IV govs).

6. That is just roleplay stuff, I have no interest in currently in restricting the OERs to kings with certain traits.

7. The provinces would be quite manageable, though the distance to capital penalties in Baktria might be quite crippling, and any good roleplayer would not want to put his capital in a type III gov province. It is in fact easier to leave the provinces as they are, you don't have to spend so much money on them and can put more time in buildings to help public order. But the option is open.

8. It reflects a similar process that the Parthians went through, but it is largely to stop the player from steamrolling through the provinces (also helped by the 10 year per province building time to fully reform a province - though many provinces can be done at the sametime).

9. The Persianisation method does not restrict Hellenic troops overly, A type II gov still allows for a level 3 Regional MIC, which would be able to recruit pantodapoi phalangitai. Higher level hellenic troops however would not be available. Furthermore factional troops in the persianised provinces will not be Hayasdan troops, but persian troops and regionals that would not otherwise be available were the province still under Hellenic rule. A type III and a Type IV gov in the provinces mapped out above allow for hellenic troops only (and some low level regionals such as artish pada and thanvare payahdag). Only by building a type II gov would you be able to recruit the more interesting units, that are regionals to other factions. There is no chance of having a Type IV mixed in with a Type II, the script would grow disproportionately in complexity.

10. Yes, as I said in the preview the same steps are required in each province. The way it works, the marriage between the script and the edb requires this to be so.

11. This was my own work entirely on my own, and it fitted my style better to do it as above.

12. He is the Hai Arkah, as drawn by Caractacos, and now represents the Hai Family Member in-game, as you can see in the pictures.

Foot

[Ludens]

Thanks for the answers, Kull.

I Am Herenow, did you miss the development art thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79299)?

[Foot]

The thing is I can understand why Kull got the credit. We both have the same banner!

Was actually me though.

Foot

[Sarkiss]

WOW, Foot!!!
great job! thanks a lot! :beam:

[Ludens]

The thing is I can understand why Kull got the credit. We both have the same banner!

Was actually me though.
:oops: , thanks Foot.

[Foot]

Anyone found the barely hidden easter eggs? There are two of them.

Foot

[Sarkiss]

Anyone found the barely hidden easter eggs? There are two of them.

Foot
is new infantry unit one of them?

[I Am Herenow]

Thanks for the answers, Foot, but I'm not sure about any easter eggs :S

[Foot]

nah, all units down the right have already been previewed. I was referring more in the way of building descriptions.

I mean, they are not really hidden, but you know...

Foot

[The Persian Cataphract]

To elaborate on Foot's explanation on the historical grounds of this concept, is that "Persia" itself as a designation is a misnomer caused by a simple, but quite significant mistake in Herodotus' "Histories". The Achaemenid Empire was an amalgam of ethnically Persian and Medean royal lines and through satrapal fragmentation, foremostly in the area that constituted the "Greater Iran", the Achaemenid world order is better designated as an Iranian empire. The later Armenians gradually lost this identity as the Orontids began to fade out in favour of the more independent Artaxiad dynasty. A by-product of the Parthian conquests was that Graeco-Roman authors tried to apply Arsaces the lineage of the Achaemenid king Artaxerxes (Can't really remember the numerical designation, but it is apparent in Historiarum Philippicarum). Historically, the Parthians projected the third Iranian empire. In matter of legitimacy to Achaemenids, they lacked the "credentials" of the Orontids or those of the Mithridatic dynasty of Pontus. It is about as simple as that.

What the Parthians however have in common with Deioces, and Cyrus The Great was their humble origins. Their legitimacy as an Iranian empire is dignified by deeds, even though the Pârnî themselves were Iranian and spoke a language highly similar to Old Persian, the lingual basis for the Middle Persian or Pahlavî language. However Armenia has been incredibly pivotal in Ancient Iranian history to such a degree that it is included in the area that constitutes the "Greater Iran" and more importantly the designation of a "Persianate". This preview should not be taken at a face value in the historical sense. Much thanks to Foot's brilliant idea, I am truly honoured that I've taken a small part in contributing my knowledge to the endeavouring of making the remarkable Armenian faction more attractive. What I have shared is the model of how "Eastern" nations in history expanded, and a strategy plan of consolidation. Without revealing any concepted plan, I ask the fans to try to realize the potential of this structure.

As usual any question on "when's" will be met by official replies with absurd estimates solely meant to increase hype ~:joker:

[Rundownloser]

That looks awesome, great work.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Wow, two pages already.

Btw, I too am looking forward to this!:beam:

[Geoffrey S]

Wow. Incredible work. This should make Hayasdan far more interesting to play as. Only two questions spring to mind:

1. Is the distance to which provinces can be reformed to support a type II government based on the previous extent of the Persian empire? It looks rather large to me, but I admit I don't know how centrally governed the more far-flung areas were.
2. It probably sounds rather greedy, but are such reforms planned for other factions which start off uncentralised? Such as the Sweboz, Lusitanians, the Dacians, Casse, and possibly Saba? I really like the idea of limiting such factions at the start to prevent completely a-historical steamrollering.

Again, great work! This is the kind of thing I love in EB. And yeah, the descriptions are really good, nice and indepth. :2thumbsup:

[russia almighty]

So we can pick and choose which towns we want to leave Hellenic and which ones we want to Persianize ?

[I Am Herenow]

What I have shared is the model of how "Eastern" nations in history expanded, and a strategy plan of consolidation. Without revealing any concepted plan, I ask the fans to try to realize the potential of this structure.

Well, so far we've had previews for Pahlava and Hayasdan - are Arche Seleukeia, Saka Rauka and Baktria going to get something too? I hope the AS "break-up" thing becomes more obvious TBH - nothing seemed to happen when I played as other factions.

Also, thanks for the historical information.

[Cybvep]

In fact, this "break up" thing should not only be the AS's problem, but the problem of any bigger empire. In RTW it's just too easy to manage an empire, and I hope that in future versions EB will do sth about it... It would be cool if the later game would also be interesting. After all, running an empire shouldn't be a picnic.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

That's fantastic, Food. :rtwyes: :rtwyes: :rtwyes:

[Foot]

Wow. Incredible work. This should make Hayasdan far more interesting to play as. Only two questions spring to mind:

1. Is the distance to which provinces can be reformed to support a type II government based on the previous extent of the Persian empire? It looks rather large to me, but I admit I don't know how centrally governed the more far-flung areas were.
2. It probably sounds rather greedy, but are such reforms planned for other factions which start off uncentralised? Such as the Sweboz, Lusitanians, the Dacians, Casse, and possibly Saba? I really like the idea of limiting such factions at the start to prevent completely a-historical steamrollering.

Again, great work! This is the kind of thing I love in EB. And yeah, the descriptions are really good, nice and indepth. :2thumbsup:

1. Achaemenid Persia, at its height, extended further than this. But this zone of reforming provinces represents the heartland and the most important provinces. Baktria was incredibly important as was Syria, so I used those two as boundaries. I didn't want to head south into egyptian land or anatolia as I felt they weren't really in the zone I wanted to focus on.

2. If other factions want to use a similar system they are more than welcome to, but they would need to dicuss that amongst themselves as to what is the most appropriate.

Foot

[Foot]

So we can pick and choose which towns we want to leave Hellenic and which ones we want to Persianize ?

Not really, but I guess its possible through cheating. Constructing the building "The Conquerer Comes ..." in the provinces of a tier, getting the Expansion Precursor and then destroying the building "The Conquerer Comes ..." is an easy way to exploit the system. Nothing I can do about that, except be careful and don't cheat.

Foot

[Sarkiss]

nah, all units down the right have already been previewed. I was referring more in the way of building descriptions.

I mean, they are not really hidden, but you know...

Foot
got it!
nice descriptions (cant see bonuses that "Conquerer comes..." provides though:clown: ) and idea as a whole! very well done!:yes:

[Foot]

got it!
nice descriptions (cant see bonuses that "Conquerer comes..." provides though:clown: ) and idea as a whole! very well done!:yes:

You'll also be pleased to hear that the Caucasian Archers will be making it into the next public release, so no more thanvare payahdag in the mountains.

Foot

[Conqueror]

Not really, but I guess its possible through cheating. Constructing the building "The Conquerer Comes ..." in the provinces of a tier, getting the Expansion Precursor and then destroying the building "The Conquerer Comes ..." is an easy way to exploit the system. Nothing I can do about that, except be careful and don't cheat.

Foot

But could you still choose whether or not to reform a particular tier of provinces, so long as the previous tier has already been reformed right? So could you, for example, reform all the provinces east from the center and leave those to the west unreformed, thus getting the hellenistic recruitment options from local MICs in the west and the persian recruitment options from factional MICs in the east? That wouldn't be cheating would it?

[Foot]

But could you still choose whether or not to reform a particular tier of provinces, so long as the previous tier has already been reformed right? So could you, for example, reform all the provinces east from the center and leave those to the west unreformed, thus getting the hellenistic recruitment options from local MICs in the west and the persian recruitment options from factional MICs in the east? That wouldn't be cheating would it?

That is in fact what the system allows (something I did on purpose).

Foot

[Sarkiss]

You'll also be pleased to hear that the Caucasian Archers will be making it into the next public release, so no more thanvare payahdag in the mountains.

Foot
i thought you've forgotten about it.:beam:
thanks

[Karo]

Man this is going to be soo great can't wait to start a new campaigne with Haysdan and when are you guys planning to bring a voice mod for armenia

[Krusader]

Man this is going to be soo great can't wait to start a new campaigne with Haysdan and when are you guys planning to bring a voice mod for armenia

When someone writes the commands in Armenian accompanied by a pronunciation guide. ~:)

[Hooahguy]

was this the promised preview we've been waiting for? btw, great preview! maybe after i finish as SPQR, ill do the Hai.

[Lysander13]

With all the work being done on the Pahlava and now the Hayasdan as well; those are two factions that are growing increasingly attractive to play as for me. Although i'm a Greek apologist, i'm more than willing to give the "eastern barbarians" a try with all the work you guys are putting into these 2 factions...Hehe J/K with the barbarian stuff...

Great work Foot!! :2thumbsup:

[Karo]

When someone writes the commands in Armenian accompanied by a pronunciation guide. ~:)


If thats all that is needed I can do that, now I don't really have that much time but in a week or three I could do it

[I Am Herenow]

I only just got those "easter eggs" lol :sweatdrop: , but I could only find the links on TWC.

Anyway, nice descriptions, but just some small things I think you should change.

In the paragraph before the "STRATEGY" paragraph for both descriptions, you should, in my opinion, change the following:

It was only the twin pressures that begun began the inevitable dissolution of the Seleukid Empire. By this time Hayasdan's economy and military and become had been organised under the new king Artashes, whose successes in battle helped form make Hayasdan into a homogenous kingdom.

Otherwise: cool! :beam:

[Sarkiss]

When someone writes the commands in Armenian accompanied by a pronunciation guide. ~:)
nah, that wouldnt sound right! what you really need is an native Armenian to do the voicing!
a question. will this new boduguard unit replace the current one? imo the latter looks awesome btw.

[Krusader]

nah, that wouldnt sound right! what you really need is an native Armenian to do the voicing!
a question. will this new boduguard unit replace the current one? imo the latter looks awesome btw.

Actually, forgot to mention that part, but as I understood anyone who wants to pronounce the words needs to speak Armenian or a closely related language natively or fluently.
We don't just put anyone in front of a mic. Our Punic voicemod actor had to use weeks to perfect his pronunciation before he began. Expect no less for Armenian or any other language.

[shlin28]

Where is the Easter egg? I cant find it :wall:

[Swordmaster]

Where is the Easter egg? I cant find it :wall:


I only just got those "easter eggs" lol :sweatdrop: , but I could only find the links on TWC.

:idea2:

[LusitanianWolf]

Pretty nice!!!!
I was wanting to start an game with Hai, and now....
Excelent job!!!!

[Basileus Seleukeia]

:idea2:

Still don't get it. I can't find any links to an "easteregg" in the building description of the TWC preview. Could soemone please PM me and tell me what this "easteregg" is and where to find it?

[shlin28]

Is the easter egg the two building descriptions? But i cant find any refrences about the TWC :dizzy2:

[Geoffrey S]

Click on the buildings icons for The Conqueror comes... and [/b]...and brings Peace and Order[/B]. Enjoy!

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Ah, thank you:2thumbsup:

[Karo]

Actually, forgot to mention that part, but as I understood anyone who wants to pronounce the words needs to speak Armenian or a closely related language natively or fluently.
We don't just put anyone in front of a mic. Our Punic voicemod actor had to use weeks to perfect his pronunciation before he began. Expect no less for Armenian or any other language.

Don't worry I'm a native armenian borne in Hayastan :2thumbsup:
So if you want I could start working on it begin september or soo.

[Morte66]

What happens if "I" as Armenian ruler decide that I don't give a stuff about replacing the Achaemenid dynasty, and I would serve my people better by expanding north or west than by trying to grind through the biggest faction in the game?

Will the reform rules indirectly hamper me with government limitations etc?

[Foot]

Well you won't be able to put type III or type IV Govs outside of the Caucasus, but was going to happen anyway. Really I want to implement a system whereby it would be impossible to build a government building in any nomadic province, but I haven't figured one out yet. If you want to expand into Anatolia or above north of the pontic coast, be my guest. Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build).

Foot

[Geoffrey S]

So no government would be possible, not even IV (military alliance)?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Really I want to implement a system whereby it would be impossible to build a government building in any nomadic province, but I haven't figured one out yet.
Foot

Read carefully, Geoffrey

[Laevex]

This preview has made me get butterflies about the release of 1.0 so bad! Hayasdan will definately become a hugely popular faction now that EB lets Hai commanders reforge the Persian Empire. That just sounds so fun to me!

All you guys at EB are brilliant!

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Well, you'll have to wait for 1.0 a very long time, as 0.9 is the next release. And it will surely be awesome enough to cover up the time untill 1.0:2thumbsup:

[Krusader]

Well, you'll have to wait for 1.0 a very long time, as 0.9 is the next release. And it will surely be awesome enough to cover up the time untill 1.0:2thumbsup:

And you know this how?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Simple method of eleminating that which is wrong or implausible, and therefore finding out that which is right. Or just that this one is a really mayor release and the last mayor release was 0.8.

[russia almighty]

Oh 1.0 is gonna be the next release . I threaten to cut of the brownies .

[sass]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking:furious3:

If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...

Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building :thumbsdown:

I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..

Thanks.

[Ludens]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking:furious3:

If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...

Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building :thumbsdown:

I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..
I am completely baffled as to why you think this is the last nail in EB's coffin. It's a just friggin' reform for one single faction. You don't even have to reform if you don't want to. It doesn't restrict the player, it actually gives more options for the Armenian player.

Nor do I understand why you consider the oliphaunt cheat the only thing that kept this mod from being boring. If you only appreciate the cheat elephants, then why do you play this mod in the first place? EB is about a historical playstyle. If that doesn't suit you, that's fine. To each his own. But the majority of people on this forum would disagree with you that further historical reforms would make the game boring.

[Foot]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

I'm sorry you feel this way. But I'm afraid that the numbers disagree with you. The most popular campaign is the Romani, in part no doubt because of their place in pop culture, but also because of their reforms. These Hayasdan reforms work in exactly the same way, if you want to do them you can, if you don't then you don't have to. Nothing is subtracted from the gaming experience that existed before for Hayasdan, this adds an option that wasn't present before.



Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking:furious3:

Well every part of the game is not scripted so I don't know what youre complaining about. No style is forced on you, you can still conquer provinces to your hearts content. The only way this could be seen as limiting is if we had previously released EB with 1 turn build times, otherwise I don't see any difference between building up the military of a province and this, this way just takes longer.



If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...


What unit scripts don't work? I have done extensive testing with this script, there is very little chance that bugs can creep in, its hardly a complex script. We haven't removed the elephant cheat (I assume you mean the olliphant cheat), there is no way how, I believe the large elephants are still in game (may be wrong about that). But then that hardly matters, we are not catering to RTW fans who want a few extra units, we are recreating history here - and thats not to everyones taste.



Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building :thumbsdown:


You really seem to have missed the point of why we put all this work into EB. Thats fine, there is no wrong way to play the game, but don't expect any sympathy from the team. We have put a lot of depth into the game, that is the direction we have always moved in. We cannot and will not cater to every one. For example, if we catered exclusively to you then many of our fans would also leave because they are not interested in the gameplay you are, and neither are we.



I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..

Thank you for your loyalty, but quite frankly it does not matter one jot to me. I have added here something that has taken time and effort to learn and script and finish, because I feel that in the spirit of EB it is something that will add rather than detract from the game that EB is trying to make.

That you see a different EB spirit belies an obvious misunderstanding. We will push people into a certain way of playing, we make the romani reforms come late in the day, we make sure that converting a province into a Type I gov takes time and we slow generals down in adverse conditions. But the great thing about modding is, if you don't like it you can change it. You've already shown this by modding your build to have "one turn building and unit building". The script can likewise be modified, if you don't like what I've done above then you can change it. If you can't be bothered to do so then you can either live with it or stop playing, quite frankly it doesn't bother me either way. I do this job out of enjoyment and a shared vision for what EB could be. EB could never be a haven for blitzers like yourself, though it can accomodate them if necessary and with a little modding, and if EB did wish to be so I would leave at that moment.

So your criticism is not heard, because we do not nor ever have catered to blitzers. If your criticism was based on historicity, or gameplay that kept within the spirit of EB then I would discuss it, but we are attacking this problem from two different angles, no common ground can be found - I'm surprised, for such a loyal fan, that you thought otherwise.

Foot

[Karo]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking:furious3:

If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...

Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building :thumbsdown:

I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..

Thanks.

I'm a Hay myself and I think thiss is the on of the few mods who really represend the Hay faction. with this reforms they're creation a unique faction that the Hayastan really was in those days with influences from east and west so this is only making evrey thing better not worse and if you don't like this don't play the faction. this game is for historical accuaries not only for gameplay or so.

@foot I've got a question when you're trying to build a cucasian empire so the first reform can happen what is there to do about the grey dead attacking you before that time. if they attack you before you're finished building a real kingdom you're going to be toasted. Because you're core units will not be availble in the begining as I understood. so can there be something done about them attacking you before the first reforme

[Morte66]

sass does touch on a few things that had me worried for a while...


Well every part of the game is not scripted so I don't know what youre complaining about. No style is forced on you, you can still conquer provinces to your hearts content.

The description on the first page is a little impenetrable, it's sometimes not immediately obvious (to me) which restrictions apply to which provinces. But after re-reading it a few times, it seems that you have:

a) Generally slowed down the process of assimilation and government building for the Hai. Is this going to happen to other factions?

b) Required that some things be done in a certain order, e.g. you must bulild roads and markets and poulation in Armavir, then Type 1 government in Armavir, before you can build a Type 1 government in Ani Kamah or Type 2 in Kotais. This is a new restriction.

c) Added some stuff about recreating the Achaemenid dydnasty if you choose to go in a certain direction and meet certain conditions. But you don't require players to go in that direction, the Achaemenids can also be forgotten.

Am I reading it right?

I found the announcement a bit alarming at first, e.g. I was worried that I would have to conquer Sophene and give myself a land frontier with the Seleucids before I could get the reforms to let me build the governments (and hence MICs/troops) I want. But on a close reading, that doesn't seem to be the case.


But the great thing about modding is, if you don't like it you can change it.

Pfft. If you don't like it, you can get a team of a couple of dozen people together and work for a few years and make your own mod. Pull the other leg, it's got bells on. ;)


EB could never be a haven for blitzers

It is fair enough that you make a mod to suit a certain style of play. And I like it for what it's meant to do, and I'll play something else (e.g. the Dies Irae mod for BI) to get a more lightning style. But there is one thing I always wonder: if you guys got the gameplay working exactly the way you wanted, then pushed the start date back a few decades, would Alexander's conquests be possible?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

But there is one thing I always wonder: if you guys got the gameplay working exactly the way you wanted, then pushed the start date back a few decades, would Alexander's conquests be possible?

Well, actually did only conquer these regions, he never "controled" them like depicted in the game. If you had to represent Alexanders actions, the government buildings would cost 0 gold and will be build in 1 turn. He just gave the control to his friends. He didin't do a lot of things to preserve his empire, but he did a lot to create one very fast. That was the reason for his failure, imho.

[Kepper]

Great work it the Reforms, are any planes to give a reform to Baktria after they control of the Indians region:sweatdrop: :sweatdrop:

[KARTLOS]

Well you won't be able to put type III or type IV Govs outside of the Caucasus, but was going to happen anyway. Really I want to implement a system whereby it would be impossible to build a government building in any nomadic province, but I haven't figured one out yet. If you want to expand into Anatolia or above north of the pontic coast, be my guest. Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build).

Foot

please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

i have a long-haysadan campaign.

in my campaign i took out the selucids first- which would kind of fit with these changes. this was mainly out of necessity as we were at war from the start and they will never make peace.

after the selucids i set about taking all the provinces surrounding the black sea. this brought me into war with the getai, sweboz and sarmatians. This has probably been the most enjoyable part of my campaign - very different fighting style of the enemies i now encounter. PLus MOST importantly i have really enjoyed the new troops i can recruit in this region - greek units like hoplites in the coastal regions, nomad style troops like scythian horse archers and nobles, thracian nobles etc.

are you telling me that these troops will no longer be available to the hay-player?

[Morte66]

please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

I'm hoping it's a typo, and he meant "you will not be able to build anything except type 3/4 outside the Caucasus (unless you do the Achaemenid restoration thing to get some higher governments in the old Persian empire)". That seems to match the details in the first post.

[KARTLOS]

I'm hoping it's a typo, and he meant "you will not be able to build anything except type 3/4 outside the Caucasus (unless you do the Achaemenid restoration thing to get some higher governments in the old Persian empire)". That seems to match the details in the first post.

i hope so!

my only complaint about the haysadan so far has been the slightly limited recruitment options once you expand beyond their natural boundaries. I currently hold a few german provinces and the only units availabe are celtic slingers & spearmen - i was hoping this kind of thing would be expanded. It would be good if the recruitment options you have in ankyra (light and heavy cav, celtic bowmen etc) were also available in mainland europe.

i believe the getai capital has very lmited recruitment options (perhaps just spearmen) it would be good if we could recruit some unique regionals here.

several of the provinces in the "holy land" i.e modern syria/ lebanon israel etc also have very limited recruitment - though i presume these new changes will help fix it.

also i am now moving south into arabia - so far the recruitment option have been very limited, i believe just spearmen - it would be good if this was expanded.

i was dissapointed that recruiting "phalanx" stlye troops from newly conquered "greek" regions (i.e selucid, ptolmaic and makedon regions) is not possible. i woudl have though that it would be possible to press some of the defeated greeks into your service.
considering you can recruit hoplites in some regions there is a slight contradiction here.

[Kull]

please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

i have a long-haysadan campaign.

in my campaign i took out the selucids first- which would kind of fit with these changes. this was mainly out of necessity as we were at war from the start and they will never make peace.

after the selucids i set about taking all the provinces surrounding the black sea. this brought me into war with the getai, sweboz and sarmatians. This has probably been the most enjoyable part of my campaign - very different fighting style of the enemies i now encounter. PLus MOST importantly i have really enjoyed the new troops i can recruit in this region - greek units like hoplites in the coastal regions, nomad style troops like scythian horse archers and nobles, thracian nobles etc.

are you telling me that these troops will no longer be available to the hay-player?

Good lord man, did you even read the excerpt that you quoted? "Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build)." So yes, you can still recruit non-armenian units in non-armenian provinces, just like every other faction. And again per the quote, it will probably be even better in the next build than it is in v.81a. How you could misinterpret that as "no units" is utterly beyond me.

[KARTLOS]

Good lord man, did you even read the excerpt that you quoted? "Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build)." So yes, you can still recruit non-armenian units in non-armenian provinces, just like every other faction. And again per the quote, it will probably be even better in the next build than it is in v.81a. How you could misinterpret that as "no units" is utterly beyond me.

fair point, but what he has written is slightly confusing. if you couldnt even build type iii or iv in nomad lands then how could you recruit?

[KARTLOS]

i forgot to see anything positive abourt the preview!

it all seems very excting- i am looking forward to starting my haysadan empire all over again.

could you give an example of the type of troops you will now be able to recruit in a fully reformed Persepolis?

[Kull]

fair point, but what he has written is slightly confusing. if you couldnt even build type iii or iv in nomad lands then how could you recruit?

Well first of all, as Morte66 points out, it was obviously a typo about not building the Type 3&4 outside of the Caucasus, as the entire preview contradicts that statement. As to "no govs in the steppe", that's more a wish than anything, and frankly it's a reasonable one. Building a typical Type 3 and 4 in the middle of the pure nomad provinces seems rather unlikely from a historical accuracy point of view. But the EB team has not come up with a good alternative, and the gov system was always intended to be roughly representative and not a 100% depiction of the way things really were in this era. But rest assured that if we DO find a way to eliminate those gov types from the steppe, the result will NOT be to eliminate all recruitment from the steppe.....give us some credit for not being complete fools, please.

[KARTLOS]

Well first of all, as Morte66 points out, it was obviously a typo about not building the Type 3&4 outside of the Caucasus, as the entire preview contradicts that statement. As to "no govs in the steppe", that's more a wish than anything, and frankly it's a reasonable one. Building a typical Type 3 and 4 in the middle of the pure nomad provinces seems rather unlikely from a historical accuracy point of view. But the EB team has not come up with a good alternative, and the gov system was always intended to be roughly representative and not a 100% depiction of the way things really were in this era. But rest assured that if we DO find a way to eliminate those gov types from the steppe, the result will NOT be to eliminate all recruitment from the steppe.....give us some credit for not being complete fools, please.

i dont think type 3/4 govs are too unrealistic for nomads - they can be intertpreted as representing an aliance/trubutary/vassal relationship with the regional tribe.

[keravnos]

Well, actually did only conquer these regions, he never "controled" them like depicted in the game. If you had to represent Alexanders actions, the government buildings would cost 0 gold and will be build in 1 turn. He just gave the control to his friends. He didin't do a lot of things to preserve his empire, but he did a lot to create one very fast. That was the reason for his failure, imho.

Reading some Arrian "Alexanders' March upcountry"=ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ, for both the voicemod, and personal enjoyment, I have only this to quote, not directed at you in anyway but to all those who throughout the time have doubted, cursed, spat upon and generally mistreated he who is the greatest general/Tactician of all times. (Hannibal very close second)

I imagine Arrian wrote it, as he himself must have been hearing ugly stuff about Alexander from whichever source and for whatever reason..

In capital, as ancient greek was written at the time,



Arrian's "ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ" , Book 7, Chapter 28, 1-2 and Chapter 30, 1-2"

... ΟΣΤΙΣ ΔΕ ΚΑΚΙΖΕΙ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΝ
... ΟΥΤΩ ΔΗ ΕΚΛΟΓΙΖΕΣΘΩ ΟΣΤΙΣ ΤΕ ΩΝ ΑΥΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΙΑΙ ΤΥΧΗΙ ΚΕΧΡΗΜΕΝΟΣ ΟΝΤΙΝΑ ΓΕΝΟΜΕΝΟΝ ΕΚΕΙΝΟΝ...
... ΣΜΙΚΡΟΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΕ ΩΝ ΑΥΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΣΜΙΚΡΟΙΣ ΠΟΝΟΥΜΕΝΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΔΕ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΕΝ ΚΟΣΜΩΙ ΤΙΘΕΜΕΝΟΣ.

=


... Αnd to whoever disapproves/accuses Alexander
... let him ponder who he is (the one who disapproves/accuses), what he has achieved so far in his life at and compare this to how accomplished Alexanders' (life was)...
... while he himself is insignificant, bent on insignificant things, unable to complete even those.

I think will make this my stock answer to those trying to diminish ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ and his legacy, for whichever ugly/fatal flaws his character had, his accomplishments and pure wonder, are nothing but awe inspiring.

What Arrianos wrote is nothing but the truth, millenia ago, and also now. It will also be truth, millenia from now, written in the same letters you see in the first quote, but translated in a different language we can't even imagine, assuming mankind exists then.

THAT is Megas Alexandros' power.

Alexander's greatest legacy is no territory in land or his astounding victories. It is his dream. The dream of the "Brotherhood of Man". An ideal that we should try to bring into being. A few months before his death, as recorded by the Alexandrian philosopher Eratosthenes (275-194 BCE) -Strabo XV, 1,49 spoke the following words in an assembly of nine thousand officers and leaders of all races...

--Now as the wars come to an end, I wish that you will live happily in peace. All mortals, from now onwards, should live like one nation, in amity, for the common progress. You should consider the world as your country, with common laws, where the noble ones will govern. I do not divide the people into Greeks and Barbarians as the narrow-minded do. I am neither interested in the origin of the citizens nor concerned with the race into which they were born. I classify them with only one criterion, Virtue. For me, every good foreigner (xenos) is a Greek and every bad Greek is worse than a Barbarian. If ever there would be disputes do not take resort to the use of weapons but solve them peacefully. If there is need I shall stand as your arbitrator. You should not think about God as a despotic governor, but as the common father of all; so your behaviour should be like that which the brothers in a family have. From my side I consider all, white and black, as equal. I do not want you to merely be the subjects of my state but participants and partners. To the full extent of my capacity I shall try to apply whatever I promise. Keep this vow that we give today with prudence as a symbol of Love.--

[sass]

Well thats fine..

But if you intend To do things that deppend on certen buildings being built etc..you need to put out a page on the forum that tells, spoiler or not what every reform takes to happen.. otherwise like before You have people in here bitching for answers to why this unit is missing or something..Also currently there are scripts that do not work A. for this factian alone catafracts dont WORK!! you cannot recurt them nore there other elite unit out side the capital and thats lame..However you seem to have a fix or something thats not the same as the scrit working..Also one of the steppe reforms is NOt working has it ever really worked? it did in the last build..then there was the celtic reforms that where bugged..etc..


As for the main point..that some of us already after i posted are not so sure about the A. Reqired building terms before you can tec up or get a new reform..DO you relize how many turns that would take and how much cash? Your actiely makeing people use money cheeats:laugh4: this will be the most cheated with factian hahah...listen im sure ill end up likeing it..But if not..You still should have a page showing people how to alter the changes with out to much fuss and aggresive rudeness of how someones butchering your art work..And you should care what Me and others think of what you do..Offending to many people and you'll be playing alone..the forums already dead just a thought..

[Karo]

Why should they. You're the only one who's not liking the chages the rest of us loves them and I'm sure this will work the way t should and remeber the mod is still beta

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The mod's not beta. It hasn't really been since v0.80. Don't let the numbering system confuse you. It isn't complete, but it isn't beta. In fact, I have play a great many off-the-shelf video games that are far less complete than EB. No offense, it's just fustration. Really, we're begging you, tell everyone that it isn't beta and not to be afraid of it. :sweatdrop:

[Karo]

I know It's more complete than most sorry if I called it a beta but whatI ment it's not complete jet and and I'm trying to get new players to Eb :beam:

[keravnos]

The point is that what Foot is doing with the Hayasdan is what Tigranes II would do if he was around some 100 or more years earlier.

If you have doubts on "how to get there", remember Foot is the Faction Co-ordinator for the Hayasdan. He is also in a position to know how history unfolded, and better, how it could unfold if Tigranes II or someone of his calliber had the power to do so.

Having read the reforms it makes sense to me. 1 plus 1 =2. 2 plus 2=4.... this way you will be the Restored Achaimenid Empire in a jiffy in logical steps. You can even have the option to keep some Hellenic troops around or go for the full Persian thing.

The "option" you keep talking about, just isn't there.

Listen, in theory, everyone could sit around all day, and have all the fun in the world. In reality you need to work. so that you can eat (among other things). To work you need to have an education/skillset that market requires. To get that education you need to go to college/technical school. To go to...

Catch my drift?

[artavazd]

Originally Posted by Krusader
When someone writes the commands in Armenian accompanied by a pronunciation guide.



If thats all that is needed I can do that, now I don't really have that much time but in a week or three I could do it


I have already done about 60-65% of the translations. foot and I started on this a year ago. Its been put on hold now. I dont know if foot still has my translations in his email.

[Karo]

Artavadz jan if you need any help just help me I would love to help with Hayastan

[artavazd]

Karo do you have a microphone which you can record with?? I dont have one. Like I said the translations are 60-65% finished with two to three translations for each command. Lets see if foot still has them, and maybe you can be the voice for them~:cheers:

[sass]

Can you post a histroical sorce for the colors and brightness of the new genreals skin? what the heck was wrong with the cold steal catafract bodie guarde of old? or is that an early body guard? the new one i mean..:inquisitive:

[Karo]

Karo do you have a microphone which you can record with?? I dont have one. Like I said the translations are 60-65% finished with two to three translations for each command. Lets see if foot still has them, and maybe you can be the voice for them~:cheers:


Ap jan ofcourse I got one :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :yes:

@Sassyes that's a early bodyguard for Hayastan and after some time it changes to the tank we got no

[sass]

Nice very Nice...

[Foot]

Man, I'm so going to have a field day with this.


@foot I've got a question when you're trying to build a cucasian empire so the first reform can happen what is there to do about the grey dead attacking you before that time. if they attack you before you're finished building a real kingdom you're going to be toasted. Because you're core units will not be availble in the begining as I understood. so can there be something done about them attacking you before the first reforme

I haven't really had a play-test with this new system, but from the little I have done (waiting for the next internal version to come out) I think I would like to increase the income for Hayasdan to allow a profit to be made even with a small skirmisher defence force. As to the aggressiveness of AS, I think nothing much can be done (though I have found a gift of 100 minai does a hell of a lot) until EB2 where we will have greater control over AI aggressiveness.


sass does touch on a few things that had me worried for a while...

The description on the first page is a little impenetrable, it's sometimes not immediately obvious (to me) which restrictions apply to which provinces. But after re-reading it a few times, it seems that you have:

My apologies, its quite hard to write for someone who hasn't a clue as to how a system works whilst being a person intimately involved with the process.



a) Generally slowed down the process of assimilation and government building for the Hai. Is this going to happen to other factions?

b) Required that some things be done in a certain order, e.g. you must bulild roads and markets and poulation in Armavir, then Type 1 government in Armavir, before you can build a Type 1 government in Ani Kamah or Type 2 in Kotais. This is a new restriction.

c) Added some stuff about recreating the Achaemenid dydnasty if you choose to go in a certain direction and meet certain conditions. But you don't require players to go in that direction, the Achaemenids can also be forgotten.

Am I reading it right?

I've only slowed down the process for Type I and Type II governments, and only excessively has this been slowed down outside of the Caucasus. Within the Caucasus it isn't too bad and can be easily changed. Otherwise you are entirely correct on all points.



I found the announcement a bit alarming at first, e.g. I was worried that I would have to conquer Sophene and give myself a land frontier with the Seleucids before I could get the reforms to let me build the governments (and hence MICs/troops) I want. But on a close reading, that doesn't seem to be the case.


No that is not the case. Once the building of a Type I Gov is done in Hayasdan then all the precursor buildings are placed for the Caucasus region.



Pfft. If you don't like it, you can get a team of a couple of dozen people together and work for a few years and make your own mod. Pull the other leg, it's got bells on. ;)


From learning the scripting language to doing the entire script took a couple of days hard work. The extra work, the building descrs and stuff took longer. Modding is far easier than you seem to make out, especially when you are taking out stuff and not inputing new stuff. Don't know what you are complaining about.


please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

i have a long-haysadan campaign.

in my campaign i took out the selucids first- which would kind of fit with these changes. this was mainly out of necessity as we were at war from the start and they will never make peace.

after the selucids i set about taking all the provinces surrounding the black sea. this brought me into war with the getai, sweboz and sarmatians. This has probably been the most enjoyable part of my campaign - very different fighting style of the enemies i now encounter. PLus MOST importantly i have really enjoyed the new troops i can recruit in this region - greek units like hoplites in the coastal regions, nomad style troops like scythian horse archers and nobles, thracian nobles etc.

are you telling me that these troops will no longer be available to the hay-player?

Personally I find the idea of installing a government in a nomadic area being entirely absurd to the point of being game-breaking for me. Personally I would like to see no government available in provinces that had the nomadism building in it and the only recruitment in those provinces coming from mercs. Not got a solid plan for that, but I am working on it - slowly.

As for the moment type III and type IV govs are available in every province as for every other faction.


i hope so!

my only complaint about the haysadan so far has been the slightly limited recruitment options once you expand beyond their natural boundaries. I currently hold a few german provinces and the only units availabe are celtic slingers & spearmen - i was hoping this kind of thing would be expanded. It would be good if the recruitment options you have in ankyra (light and heavy cav, celtic bowmen etc) were also available in mainland europe.

i believe the getai capital has very lmited recruitment options (perhaps just spearmen) it would be good if we could recruit some unique regionals here.

several of the provinces in the "holy land" i.e modern syria/ lebanon israel etc also have very limited recruitment - though i presume these new changes will help fix it.

also i am now moving south into arabia - so far the recruitment option have been very limited, i believe just spearmen - it would be good if this was expanded.

i was dissapointed that recruiting "phalanx" stlye troops from newly conquered "greek" regions (i.e selucid, ptolmaic and makedon regions) is not possible. i woudl have though that it would be possible to press some of the defeated greeks into your service.
considering you can recruit hoplites in some regions there is a slight contradiction here.

Some of this is model clashes, stuff that will be sorted out in EB2. However some this is a great priority of mine, and whilst I don't want to overstep my bounds, I do want a larger regional recruitment pool for Hayasdan and that is something I am slowly working toward.


could you give an example of the type of troops you will now be able to recruit in a fully reformed Persepolis?

As you have been so kind, here is the preliminary list for Persepolis after the reforms:

Artish Pada
Shuban Fradak
Thanvare Payah
Mada Nizak
Nizag Gund
Mardian Archers
Eransahr Arsht
Mada Asabara
Ayrudzi Netadzik
Mardig Sooser
Zrahikar Netadzik
Nakhararakan Aspet
Nakhararakan Tiknapah

This list is entirely open to change so don't quote it at me if you are later disappointed.


i dont think type 3/4 govs are too unrealistic for nomads - they can be intertpreted as representing an aliance/trubutary/vassal relationship with the regional tribe.

I disagree entirely. I think no government, which represents something far more formal than could be erected in a nomadic province, is perfect with merc recruitment representing alliances with individual tribes within a province.

As to Sass, quite frankly I find your manner insulting. I never said that any changes to my work on EB has "butchering [my] art work", but neither am I going to take time out of my busy schedule to answer all your damn questions on how to change something when all the questions are in the modding forums or can be answered by other fans. I will not respond to anymore of your posts as, to be quite frank, and find your post nauseating and insulting. I hope you have a great time playing the game that we have made, whichever way you play it, but I won't waste any more of time responding to your rude responses to mine or the rest of EBs work. I'm sorry, I just have better things to do, and I am rather hurt by your recent posts.

Foot




Foot

[dbarger58]

after seeing some negative comments on this post i would just like to say i love the idea of restablishing a new persian dynasty and the reforms to do that and would like to say good job Foot and EB team and thanks for all the hard work

[russia almighty]

Gah I always thought in my campaigns as Armenia being Neo-Assyria who just has a taste for Iranian women.

[artavazd]

Gah I always thought in my campaigns as Armenia being Neo-Assyria who just has a taste for Iranian women.


Armenians arent Assyrian nor are we Iranian We Are Armenian. One of the oldest Civilizations on the face of the earth that still exist to this day. Unlike the ancient egyptians assyrians, phrygians,or lydians, who have been for the most part assimilated and lost their identity as a distinct people we have kept our distinct culture and language over the centuries. This reform does not mean armenians are or were persian. It merely signifies an Armenian king wanting to re creat the Achaemenid empire.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Of course, Artavazd only speaks in general terms; The Armenians have retained a very unique language and script, whereas the former have a few touches of Caucasian and Iranian lingual influences. They are not Iranians, but they constitute a significant historical Persianate. The later (Satrapal) Orontids, were Iranians, and the later junior Arsacid branch (Arshakuni) were Iranian as well (Though culturally they beg to differ somewhat). The Marzpanate era was heavily Sassanid-influenced. The Artaxiads were the exception that disrupted the so called "Iranian connection" between the satrapal Orontids and the junior Arsacid branch. This forms a dynastic gap, which resumes by Bagratid and Mamikonean influences.

This is of significant weight; The Sassanians considered the Armenians "Êr", or "noble" in the sense of their connection with Êrânshahr or "Land of the nobles". As such, this convention stands more like the Armenian way of interpreting the successful formula of the Achaemenid world order taking much influence from Tigranes The Great.

[artavazd]

Yes Ario. I Know that we Armenians and the Ancient Iranians ( about 30% of modern Iran) share commonalites. We are as you mentioned Er root word for Aryan. ( please people do not start talking about hitler has nothing to do with ww2 germany)

If we look back further we stem from one culture along side the Greeks and even Celts and Germans.

[Geoffrey S]

Only thing I'm not so keen on, looking back on the preview, is the bodyguard. The family member looks fantastic, no doubt about that, but the bodyguard looks a bit washed in colour-wise, particularly the sleeves. Some more shading or a more distinct cloth texture would help a lot. Where those screenshots under vanilla lighting or Goth's mod, by the way?

Still, it says enough that that's the only thing that I have doubts about with regards to the preview. The rest just keeps looking better and better!

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Reading some Arrian "Alexanders' March upcountry"=ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ, for both the voicemod, and personal enjoyment, I have only this to quote, not directed at you in anyway but to all those who throughout the time have doubted, cursed, spat upon and generally mistreated he who is the greatest general/Tactician of all times. (Hannibal very close second)

I imagine Arrian wrote it, as he himself must have been hearing ugly stuff about Alexander from whichever source and for whatever reason..

In capital, as ancient greek was written at the time,

I think will make this my stock answer to those trying to diminish ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ and his legacy, for whichever ugly/fatal flaws his character had, his accomplishments and pure wonder, are nothing but awe inspiring.

What Arrianos wrote is nothing but the truth, millenia ago, and also now. It will also be truth, millenia from now, written in the same letters you see in the first quote, but translated in a different language we can't even imagine, assuming mankind exists then.

THAT is Megas Alexandros' power.

Totally seconded. He was a great man, and if he hadn't died so early (would be interesting to know what he died of.... was he really poisoned by those who were afraid of him? Or a wound which was inflicted by a indian tribesman? Or something completely different?) I hope that one day, Alexandros' mummy will be discovered, to perhaps analyse this (remember Ötzi, perhaps we could read something out of the mummy.... we don't know) But when Alexandros' mummy is found, there will be a great argument. First the egyptians will claim that he was found on their lands, and therefore property of the state. The Greeks will claim that he belongs to Greece. But, well, that's mere speculation.
Alexander has done things that even today a man can only dream of. Some may hate him, even rightfully, but he was a great and worthy man after all. It was just the treachery between the Diadochi that tore his empire apart, Antigonos and perhaps Seleukos being the only ones which wanted to preserve that what Alexander did for his people and the whole known world.

[Sarkiss]

Yes Ario. I Know that we Armenians and the Ancient Iranians ( about 30% of modern Iran) share commonalites. We are as you mentioned Er root word for Aryan. ( please people do not start talking about hitler has nothing to do with ww2 germany)

If we look back further we stem from one culture along side the Greeks and even Celts and Germans.
if you look back we, the Armenians, partially stem from people of ancient kingdom of Ararat - Urartu, sometimes referred to as Khaldians (or Haldians) after their supreme god - Khaldi (Haldi). other part of our identity comes from Phrygian stock, who initially settled on western borders of Urartu, later called Armenian Minor. also Hurrian kingdom of Hayasa that was included in the Urartian hegemony.

Tigran extended the borders of our country up to the edge of our habitation places in antiguity.
Movses Khorenatsi, Book I.24
for those who is interested, besides Chahin's "Kingdom of Armenia" i also recommend 2 volumes of Gabriel Soultanian's "The pre-history of the Armenians".

[I Am Herenow]

The Persian Cataphract, why does Persian have "^" accents? How do they affect pronunciation, and how come there aren't any others? Obviously Persian didn't actually use Latin lettering, so who was it who came up with this concept?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Finding Alexander the Great would be a sensation by far bigger than the excavation of Troy or the location of even the most popular Pharaohs... It would be an event of such inmense international attention and overall importance, that it is to be feared they finally start a war over the possession of Alexandros.

Btw, if Alexandros would come to Greece, would they store him in Athens?~D ~D ~D

No really, I hope they would build a seperate Museum for him in Vergina or somewhere near Pella and Aigai.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Yeah, after all these years were humanity nearly forgot him (speaking of those who can't afford or don't want to learn for school or whatever) the least we could do for him is building him an own museum. Filled with stuff of his age, weapons, armours and art, and at the very end of the tour, the remains of the greatest human being to have ever existed. That is one of my dreams, alongside seeing the seven wonders of the ancient world in their full glory. But at least seeing Alexander is possible, but unfortunately unlikely because of the problems this world is going through. But I hope that I will live long enough to at least hear the news that his mortal remains were found.
Ah, I'm rambling again....

[The Persian Cataphract]

The Persian Cataphract, why does Persian have "^" accents? How do they affect pronunciation, and how come there aren't any others? Obviously Persian didn't actually use Latin lettering, so who was it who came up with this concept?

It is merely transliteration where long, open (warm) vowels are emphasized through a diacritical symbol called the circumflex. Words like "role" (rôl), "car" (kâr), "rule" (rûl) and "are" (âr) emphasize long and open vowels, while words like "at" and "man" do not share these properties. Sometimes it is spelled out by the macron that shares many of the properties of the circumflex. Other diacritical symbols I use are diaeresis which denotes separate pronunciation keys. Since most people here do not read the Arabic-Persian script, and I do not want to resort to needless double vowel syllables, and I do want to be specific, I make use of these symbols. Latin script in my opinion is superior to the Islamic-inspired script in all possible aspects when transliterating Ancient Iranian languages such as Old Persian, Soghdian and Pahlavî; It specifically kills ambiguity,

[artavazd]

if you look back we, the Armenians, partially stem from people of ancient kingdom of Ararat - Urartu, sometimes referred to as Khaldians (or Haldians) after their supreme god - Khaldi (Haldi). other part of our identity comes from Phrygian stock, who initially settled on western borders of Urartu, later called Armenian Minor. also Hurrian kingdom of Hayasa that was included in the Urartian hegemony.


You didnt understand what I was saying Sarkiss. I wasnt talking about our immidiate ancestors, but the greater indo-european culture we stem from.

[Sarkiss]

You didnt understand what I was saying Sarkiss. I wasnt talking about our immidiate ancestors, but the greater indo-european culture we stem from.
oh, no, i did. just wanted to clarify for a public by being more specific:beam: and thanks for your work on the voice mod. cant wait to hear it!

[KARTLOS]

Finding Alexander the Great would be a sensation by far bigger than the excavation of Troy or the location of even the most popular Pharaohs... It would be an event of such inmense international attention and overall importance, that it is to be feared they finally start a war over the possession of Alexandros.

Btw, if Alexandros would come to Greece, would they store him in Athens?~D ~D ~D

No really, I hope they would build a seperate Museum for him in Vergina or somewhere near Pella and Aigai.

the best place for alexanders remains would surely be the british museum??

i have heard they have a fantastic collection of greek antiquities.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

the best place for alexanders remains would surely be the british museum??

i have heard they have a fantastic collection of greek antiquities.
Many of them are at the bottom of the ocean. Arriving there, while being transported from Greece to England.

[I Am Herenow]

Many of them are at the bottom of the ocean. Arriving there, while being transported from Greece to England.

I don't understand :S

You want Alexander's corpse, if it is found, to first be shipped to Greece, and then to Britain? And what do you mean, "many of them are at the bottom of the ocean"?

[Karo]

The ships that were carrying them sunk to the bodem of the ocean i believe that's what he's saying. And if they found the body, they could build a new museaum in Atens or ship it to the british museaum.

[sass]

I very much dout his bodie is much more then bone fragments by now..beings that hellenistic forms of mumifactian where not up to par with the egyptians of yester year..sure his tomb maybe found but his bodie even if found in it prob couldnet be Id'd, I've worked a few sites in eygpt when i was in collage and still go every so offten when there is an opening with the professer every couple years..This may come as a conspericy but the locatian of his tomb has genrealy been known for along time..but a certen someone that runs the show in eygpt thats in charge of all the digs would love to to take all the credit for every single thing discoverd, you'd be amazed at what go's into makeing things public and the fighting that go's on and legel cases before a news story is ever writen up..He insists on being the first person inside a tomb or to remove an object or anything under the sun..So now days when a team has found something note worthy If possiable thy go over his head..After all he's quiet a camra ham:laugh4: To me Persenaly He's only in it to make his name larger then carters or anyone ealse..shame on that man..whos name shall not be said:laugh4: May a hippo eat him and a croc tare him in half:egypt: :boxing:

[keravnos]

the best place for alexanders remains would surely be the british museum??

i have heard they have a fantastic collection of greek antiquities.

I think you realise that everything British will be very "hot" as in "burning" commodity in Greece at that point... :furious3:

They may have shattered Parthenon and took a piece with it, but Alexandros? NO.

A new museum is being built in Vergina, to accomodate all finds in Pella and elsewhere. Makedones (the greek ones, others are well just not Makedones, they are Macedonijans or something) would slay anyone NOT bringing Alexandros back home in Makedonia.

To get back to discussion, imagine what would happen in Armenia if Tigranes the greats' tomb was found and someone tried to take whatever remains there are of him into someplace else.

[Sarkiss]

every time i go to BM it hurts my feelings to see Urartian, Armenian antiques in there while their proper place is Yerevan, and i can imagine how unhappy Greeks must be seeing some much of classical Greek heritage ended up abroad...

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Oops, unfortunately double-posted. Delete this one please.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Yeah, the britain curators are some selfish guys. I thought that if someone became a curator, he would know that things should be displayed in their country. Americans have not been better either..... they have a lot of egyptian mummys in some museums build beneath a high-way....

[The Persian Cataphract]

For us Iranians it is a necessary hurt to see our national treasures stored and locked up in foreign nations; I'd wish nothing more than have these invaluable treasures returned to the same land, to the same bosom that reared civilization. Many of these artifacts have even been stolen.

But at the same time, the worst enemy of these treasures, those who seek to destroy, are deeply established in the Iranian government and ruling ideology. Ironically, foreigners have appreciated Iranian treasures far better that Iranians themselves.

[Morte66]

It would be a shame if every important work of art or historical relic lived permanently in its home nation. How would people get to see work from other cultures, unless they were in a position to travel the world?

But it has to be said, the British historical exhibits in Greece aren't as good as the Greek historical exhibits in Britain. Maybe we should lend you Stonehenge and St Pauls Cathedral for a hundred years to even the score...

[Speaking of loans, there's the real solution. Have the important stuff spend 50% of its time at home and 50% on tour.]

[keravnos]

[Speaking of loans, there's the real solution. Have the important stuff spend 50% of its time at home and 50% on tour.]

Now, this I can agree with. Civilization monuments should indeed tour the world and everyone should be able to see and visit them.

Yet, in some countries, a whole country is identified with a person, a great leader if you will

Hayasdans or their romani name Armenians consider Tigranes the great as their greatest hero. He was that and more.

We Greeks consider Alexandros our great hero.

Of all things we could see touring around the world, Alexandros tomb and remains (if they will ever be found and ported over to Greece), would never leave Greece. Ever. It would be the same as asking for George Washington's corpse to be publically displayed in another country.

and now back to the topic at hand...

That's why I really enjoy playing with these reforms and I think you will too. Because they show what a man of Tigranes caliber would do if he was in the throne the time the Seleukid empire was falling apart.

[artavazd]

Hayasdans or their romani name Armenians consider Tigranes the great as their greatest hero. He was that and more.


Kervanos, Both Hayasdan/Hayastan and Armenia are Armenian names. Hai comes from the Hayasa tribe and or Haik the mythelogical patriarch of Armenians ( in recent research Haik has been identified with a real leader of the Hayasa tribe. There for Haykastan Hayastan tan being the suffix of home the home of the Haiks. Armenia comes from the Armens or/and king Aram.

[keravnos]

My mistake then, thought I read something to that extent.

[artavazd]

no problem brother!:2thumbsup:

by the way both of my grandparents on my mothers side are born in Greece. My grandfather is from Athens, and my grandmother is from thesaloniki.

[Sir Edward]

I thought that if someone became a curator, he would know that things should be displayed in their country.

From an idealistic stand point I can see your guys’ point about the country of origin retaining the rights to their national artifacts, but you need to be realistic here. Some countries just can’t be trusted to preserve their relics. Those of you out there saying let every country hold on to their relics just take alook look at what Afghanistan did with it’s Bactrian and Buddhists artifacts. Destroying countless ancient Buddhist statues and priceless art. Or look at Iraq, when at the first sign of a power vacuumed the citizens proceeded to cannibalize their museums. How many items were lost permanently or to stay out of public and scientific sight in private collections? :no:

Now, I’m not condoning the methods of British or American curators (or any other nationality else for that matter). But at least they can say their direct actions have preserved these items for future generations to observe. What if we gave Iran every artifact from ancient Persia? Can any one say handing these artifacts over to a society so bent on nationalism they are willing to sacrifice their pre-Islamic herritage ending well? :inquisitive:

[KARTLOS]

Yeah, the britain curators are some selfish guys. I thought that if someone became a curator, he would know that things should be displayed in their country. Americans have not been better either..... they have a lot of egyptian mummys in some museums build beneath a high-way....

not a very intelligent post.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

not a very intelligent post.
If that is your opinion, than please keep it. Besides, that post of yours is not intelligent either, as it trys to initiate a flame-war, and I will stay out of that behaviour.

[keravnos]

no problem brother!:2thumbsup:

by the way both of my grandparents on my mothers side are born in Greece. My grandfather is from Athens, and my grandmother is from thesaloniki.

Great. Thanks Brother! :2thumbsup:

Well, Mother's father was born and raised in Pontos, and was among his few family members to escape with their lives from the "Ottoman holocaust" that so many people pretend never happened in WW1. It consumed Armenians and Pontian Greeks as well. I am not pointing fingers nor placing blame on modern Turks, as the whole world has taken a stand and knows what really happened. Yet, that sort of thing did bring our people much closer than before as common death in family does to neighbours.

[Thaatu]

Yet, that sort of thing did bring our people much closer than before as common death in family does to neighbours.
A common massacre works even better. :yes:



Too soon..?

[artavazd]

the only way i blame modern turks is when they deny the genocide. There is a censorship in turkey on that matter. Who ever speaks of it gets their citizenship taken away. watch this intresting video.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-335857292932517366&q=turkey%27s+hidden+armenians

[Kull]

OK. This thread is for comments and discussion on the new EB Hayasdan Reforms. The last few posts have veered so far from that topic, that this thread is on the verge of closure. Please stay on topic, people! :whip:

[Andronikos]

Hayasdan reforms are very nice. It is good when you have some objectives to achieve. It makes factions more interesting to play (for me surely).
In last previews you have shown Pahlavan and Hayasdan changes. These factions are now better. Now eastern factions have risen in my eyes.
Is such work being done on other factions, for example Pontos which really needs it? I wish to see each faction being more unique.
btw: the new spear unit with a sun (?) on shield - what is it? I am sure it was in one preview but I cannot remember now.

[Spoofa]

babylonian spearmen i think.

[abou]

Persian Hoplites actually.

[Karo]

A few previews back I saw that Hayasdan was getting it's own Hoplite unit are they still in the game, and those persians look awsome.

[Foot]

A few previews back I saw that Hayasdan was getting it's own Hoplite unit are they still in the game, and those persians look awsome.

The Hayasdan hoplite was the hayasdan skin for the iranian hoplite.

Foot

[Andronikos]

Does the reform lead you to attack the heart of Seleucid empire?

[Foot]

Does the reform lead you to attack the heart of Seleucid empire?

I don't understand? Do you mean "make"? No, you don't have to fulfill any part of this reform, so it doesn't make you attack anyone. However to start the Orontid Empire Reform you need to take the Seleukid cities in Mesopotamia and Iran. There is a map.

Foot

[Andronikos]

Thanks, that is what I was talking about, if I want reforms I have to attack.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Thanks, that is what I was talking about, if I want reforms I have to attack.

Well, out of a strictly technical viewpoint, no you don't "have to attack", though it is advised since you'll rarely if ever see a mass revolt of the concerned provinces. If someone else conquers those provinces, well, you'll have to duke it out with them if you want the reforms... Or...

<_<

>_>





<_<

>_>

...You can exploit diplomacy to get whatever you want in combination with certain cheats. I'm not going to say anything more but in theory you can recreate the Achaemenid world order through diplomacy within 5 turns provided that you've got enough money. But that is not how the mod is meant to be played, so to your peculiar question, yes you will need to make use of military means to achieve these goals; Clearly you have to assume an aggressive and bold stance. If that means tackling the Gray Death, then so be it, but if say Baktria or in rare circumstances Pahlava carve great chunks of all that land, you also have to defeat them in battle if you wish to acquire the concerned provinces.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Also, the game might just start acting weird if you try the "diplomacy" a la TPC... In other words, your PC might not enjoy it as much as you do.

[Servilius Novus]

This looks way too complicated for me, could someone please explain how to do these reforms in brief? :help:

I guess I can pull out the Pan-Caucasian Reforms but the Persian reforms seem too difficult ~:eek:

[Arjos]

Holy necro!


-Build Type3 governments in these cities (Arbela, Seleukeia, Babylon, Ekbatana, Charax, Susa, and Persepolis)
-Build (persiapart) in these cities (Susa and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Susa, and Persepolis)

Western Expansion 2:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Ekbatana, Seleukeia, Babylon, and Charax)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Susa and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Ekbatana, Seleukeia, Babylon, and Charax)

Western Expansion 3:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Palmyra, Edessa, and Arbela)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Ekbatana, Seleukeia, Babylon, Charax, Susa, and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Palmyra, Edessa, and Arbela)

Western Expansion 4:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Tarsos, Antiocheia, and Damaskos)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Palmyra, Edessa, Arbela, Ekbatana, Seleukeia, Babylon, Charax, Susa, and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Tarsos, Antiocheia, and Damaskos)

Eastern Expansion 2a:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Zadrakata, Apameia, and Gabai)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Susa and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Zadrakata, Apameia, and Gabai)

Eastern Expansion 2b:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Karmana and Gabai)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Susa and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Karmana and Gabai)

Eastern Expansion 3a:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Asaak, Hekatompylos, and Alexandreia-Ariane)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Zadrakata, Apameia, Gabai, Karmana, Susa, and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Asaak, Hekatompylos, and Alexndreia-Ariane)

Eastern Expansion 3b:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Pura, Alexandropolis, Prophthasia, and Alexandreia-Ariane)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Zadrakata, Apameia, Gabai, Karmana, Susa, and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Pura, Alexandropolis, Prophthasia, and Alexandreia-Ariane)

Eastern Expasion 4:
-Build Type3 governments and (persiapart) in these cities (Baktra, Antiocheia-Margiane, and Kophen)
-Build (persiafull) in these cities (Pura, Alexandropolis, Prophthasia, Alexandreia-Ariane, Zadrakata, Apameia, Gabai, Karmana, Susa, and Persepolis)
= (Subjugation resrouces will appear in Baktra, Antiocheia-Margiane, and Kophen)

As you can see, you need to build specific gov buildings, which will unlock "event" buildings, they in turn will allow you to build type2 gov, ie: satrapies...

[Fluvius Camillus]

Holy necro indeed!

Those days when all the founding modders still lived along the mortals!

~Fluvius