German Units

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

First off, I want to say that the Sweboz are by far one of my favorite factions. Their unit diversity and badassery are extremely fun to play with, and their geographic conditions are perfect for my playing style.

But, it's the unit diversity that I'm here about. Some of the units seem to be a little useless to me.

The one that comes to mind is the Hundaskapiz. Is there any reason at all to ever buy a unit of them? Their stats are identical to the Gastiz, save for the fact that they cost 200 mnai more in upkeep. And the Gastiz have a better charge and are slightly more massive. They even look nearly identical...

Also, the Aljaz-Gae are pretty useless. They are twice the price of the good ole Frameharjoz, but have less to show for it. Thus there is little reason for me to ever buy them.

Frustrating are the Klumbokarlaz and the Swardimannoz. Both are inept even as meatshields, but they are experts at dying en masse. I haven't used the thrifty little Klumbos much, but I tried the Swardimannoz a few times because of their tantalizing description, elite price and fair stats only to watch them get raped by Botroas, Batacorii and Lugoai. I understand that they're meant to plow through armored opponents, but I'm left convinced that they wouldn't survive more than 5 seconds, given that low-end Celtic units quickly make doormats of their carcasses.

Don't get me wrong, I love the unit selection and the fact that these units are here because they existed, but I think there must be a way to make the ones I mentioned a little more useful and unique (they need a niche).

On a note, I think the Merjoz, Heruskoz-Swaiut and Sahsnotoz are superb. The Merjoz, though they die easily if not backed up, do indeed crush enemy lines. But is it supposed to be a club or an axe? The description calls it a massive two-handed club, but the unit clearly has a massive two-handed axe (not that I mind!). The Heruskoz-Swaiut are amazing linemen. They are cheap enough and have the stats, as well as shield wall (in BI). The Sahsnotoz are deadly; they're nice little blade is lethal as Hell and their javelins are puncturific.

Tell me if I'm missing something about these units that would make them worth my while to train and use.

[sass]

I Sware On Footss head that this is not me under a sock Id:rtwno: Can someone please help me in my thread. Don't make me have to start killing off the crew Jk..Please.:skull:

[Bootsiuv]

I Sware On Footss head that this is not me under a sock Id:rtwno: Can someone please help me in my thread. Don't make me have to start killing off the crew Jk..Please.:skull:

What?

[Geoffrey S]

Dyabedes of Aphrodisias, though I can't offer much information, similar matters have been discussed in this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86612) thread, possibly also in this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83475) one too. Even if they don't help, they're interesting.

Sass, piss off. You're offensive.

[blitzkrieg80]

First off, I want to say that the Sweboz are by far one of my favorite factions. Their unit diversity and badassery are extremely fun to play with, and their geographic conditions are perfect for my playing style.

But, it's the unit diversity that I'm here about. Some of the units seem to be a little useless to me.

The one that comes to mind is the Hundaskapiz. Is there any reason at all to ever buy a unit of them? Their stats are identical to the Gastiz, save for the fact that they cost 200 mnai more in upkeep. And the Gastiz have a better charge and are slightly more massive. They even look nearly identical...

Also, the Aljaz-Gae are pretty useless. They are twice the price of the good ole Frameharjoz, but have less to show for it. Thus there is little reason for me to ever buy them.

Frustrating are the Klumbokarlaz and the Swardimannoz. Both are inept even as meatshields, but they are experts at dying en masse. I haven't used the thrifty little Klumbos much, but I tried the Swardimannoz a few times because of their tantalizing description, elite price and fair stats only to watch them get raped by Botroas, Batacorii and Lugoai. I understand that they're meant to plow through armored opponents, but I'm left convinced that they wouldn't survive more than 5 seconds, given that low-end Celtic units quickly make doormats of their carcasses.

Don't get me wrong, I love the unit selection and the fact that these units are here because they existed, but I think there must be a way to make the ones I mentioned a little more useful and unique (they need a niche).

On a note, I think the Merjoz, Heruskoz-Swaiut and Sahsnotoz are superb. The Merjoz, though they die easily if not backed up, do indeed crush enemy lines. But is it supposed to be a club or an axe? The description calls it a massive two-handed club, but the unit clearly has a massive two-handed axe (not that I mind!). The Heruskoz-Swaiut are amazing linemen. They are cheap enough and have the stats, as well as shield wall (in BI). The Sahsnotoz are deadly; they're nice little blade is lethal as Hell and their javelins are puncturific.

Tell me if I'm missing something about these units that would make them worth my while to train and use.

Thank you very much for taking the time to give us some feedback!
If certain units don't have justification for being built, we need to know that, so we can adjust the unit or ditch them if unnecessary.

Many changes are being developed currently concerning the Sweboz which will hopefully take place for the next release.

The Hundaskapiz has been a placeholder for some time now and unit space is limited, so we will be getting rid of that unit because it is essentially generic (as you mentioned- why build it when a Gastiz is available) and not actually historically accurate as the "Hundred" was never a strategic military composition but rather a number, levy and/or tax system.

The Merjōz has been planned for changes for some time so that would be why the description mentions a 2-handed club that is not visible, so in the future we will have this unit wielding a crazy deadly 2-handed club and not a 2-handed axe (which is typically more medieval- such as the Huskarl's axe). The Merjōz which means "Famous" will also be renamed since there is no evidence of nouns in use by themselves for such military concepts, so instead they will be "The Bold", Baldrōz, much evidenced as term for warrior esp. champion or hero, and cognate to the Norse God.

The standard clubmen (to be renamed Slaganz, "Strikers") are supposed to be most effective against armored opponents so if you find them up against sword-wielding unarmored warriors, you're better off with other units supporting them, since the sword is superior in it's anti-personnel attack while the club is anti-armor. The club of the Swardmannoz and standard clubman will probably get more AP in the next release and we're adding some wicked looking spikes on some of the clubs, because there has been much evidence found concerning bone inserts. The Swardmannoz is supposed to be a fanatic variant of the clubmen so if they're no better than we need to think about increasing their stats in morale, ect.

The Aljaz-Gae should have better use than being simply another spearman and being MORE expensive, so if they are currently useless and too expensive it should be changed to very cheap or very combat effective... The best thing to do, from the sounds of it, might be to change their stats to the Heruskoz spearman which you said worked well, because the Heruskoz have been changed to a swordsman regional and the same Celtic/foreign adaptation to tactics would probably apply, so that is something good to know which we will try to address.

Bear and Wolf skin wearing warriors (as hero units not nec. fanatics) are planned but still in development. We already have a heavy cavalry designed, a Germanic skin variant of the Brihentin which looks very uniquely Germanic and will help against late enemy. Leather armor, including leather helms (yay Tollund man!) is being developed for high-end units which should give some boost for the units.

We definitely don't want a huge roster of similar and generic units so we appreciate all kinds of constructive criticism to make the game better. Already I have tried to start a process of diversifying the different spearmen ( because why would someone build spearman A over spearman B) even though the spear was the typical Germanic weapon, and more importantly we want the unique and advanced cultural aspects of the Germanics to be portrayed in the different classes of warriors and their uniquely simple yet potent art.

[russia almighty]

Are there any metal armored infantry in teh workz ?

[sass]

Dyabedes of Aphrodisias, though I can't offer much information, similar matters have been discussed in this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86612) thread, possibly also in this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83475) one too. Even if they don't help, they're interesting.

Sass, piss off. You're offensive.

Make me jackass not anywhere close to how offensive you are.

[helenos aiakides]

Slightly off the subject of german units, there are to many different types of siege weapons and they are expensive beyond belief. I think you should narrow it down, almost like it was in the vanilla. Also there is no need for baltic spearman AND baltic axemen, they are almost identical. I know its painfull getting rid of units painstakingly created, but if the game is to expand you must,
Cheers.
H A

[helenos aiakides]

I the swez should have a 2HP unit comme gaestae

[dezzerx]

Bear and Wolf skin wearing warriors (as hero units not nec. fanatics) are planned but still in development. We already have a heavy cavalry designed, a Germanic skin variant of the Brihentin which looks very uniquely Germanic and will help against late enemy. Leather armor, including leather helms (yay Tollund man!) is being developed for high-end units which should give some boost for the units.


Sounds amazing Blitskrieg! The 'hero' units, does that mean they will be command units and carry something like the Roman eagle with them?

[Teutobod II]

Leather armor, including leather helms (yay Tollund man!) is being developed for high-end units which should give some boost for the units.


Its a cap not a helmet !

http://www.silkeborgmuseum.dk/en/tollund.html

[blank]

Also there is no need for baltic spearman AND baltic axemen, they are almost identical. I know its painfull getting rid of units painstakingly created, but if the game is to expand you must,
Cheers.
H A

What? Hell no

[blitzkrieg80]

Yes, Teutobod, it's a cap, a funny one at that (at least it's not a shriner)... do you have a better ancient finding with leather "helmets" concerning the Germanics to point to?

Russia, there shall be mail armored units availabe after a Sweboz reform, such as the Marxaðegnōz ("Warhorse Retainers"- Brihentin reskin) or the Herðaǥanautōz ("Hearth Companions"- Bodyguard). Otherwise there will be studded leather and other forms of leather armor for the pre-reform Bodyguards and more elite units... possibly some scale at some point too

Dezzerx, when i said "hero" i meant more "champion" and elite unit, such as the 2-handed swordsmen of the Casse or the Gesaetae (sp?), although the drugged out 2hp element will not be included unless we summon some truly spectacular information on that, because for now we must defend the use of Wolfskin and Bearskin warriors by itself, but some great researchers on the team have already got quite a bit of evidence to make sure we can have and defend such champions. There will be new Germanic officers though, as you mentioned, one which will carry a nice early Germanic blade (large, single edge), a new Germanic FM/general (was in July preview), and the standard-bearer has been done also (is that in .82 build?).

[dezzerx]

Sounds amazing! Almost a completly new faction! :2thumbsup:

[LusitanianWolf]

Cool!!!!!!
I cant wait fo this!!!!!

I'm also playing an sweboz campain and loving, but I would realy want to have some wolfskin units!!!!



And also, since were talking about it, what kinds of tactics did sweboz used?
With them I use mostly the "standart-all-at-once-barbaric-charge" and ambushes , but is that historical? Also, with only some Wolves of Wodan to do the morale killing fast job winning with that tactics have usualy an large live price.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

Thank you very much for taking the time to give us some feedback!
If certain units don't have justification for being built, we need to know that, so we can adjust the unit or ditch them if unnecessary.

Many changes are being developed currently concerning the Sweboz which will hopefully take place for the next release.

The Hundaskapiz has been a placeholder for some time now and unit space is limited, so we will be getting rid of that unit because it is essentially generic (as you mentioned- why build it when a Gastiz is available) and not actually historically accurate as the "Hundred" was never a strategic military composition but rather a number, levy and/or tax system.

The Merjōz has been planned for changes for some time so that would be why the description mentions a 2-handed club that is not visible, so in the future we will have this unit wielding a crazy deadly 2-handed club and not a 2-handed axe (which is typically more medieval- such as the Huskarl's axe). The Merjōz which means "Famous" will also be renamed since there is no evidence of nouns in use by themselves for such military concepts, so instead they will be "The Bold", Baldrōz, much evidenced as term for warrior esp. champion or hero, and cognate to the Norse God.

The standard clubmen (to be renamed Slaganz, "Strikers") are supposed to be most effective against armored opponents so if you find them up against sword-wielding unarmored warriors, you're better off with other units supporting them, since the sword is superior in it's anti-personnel attack while the club is anti-armor. The club of the Swardmannoz and standard clubman will probably get more AP in the next release and we're adding some wicked looking spikes on some of the clubs, because there has been much evidence found concerning bone inserts. The Swardmannoz is supposed to be a fanatic variant of the clubmen so if they're no better than we need to think about increasing their stats in morale, ect.

The Aljaz-Gae should have better use than being simply another spearman and being MORE expensive, so if they are currently useless and too expensive it should be changed to very cheap or very combat effective... The best thing to do, from the sounds of it, might be to change their stats to the Heruskoz spearman which you said worked well, because the Heruskoz have been changed to a swordsman regional and the same Celtic/foreign adaptation to tactics would probably apply, so that is something good to know which we will try to address.

Bear and Wolf skin wearing warriors (as hero units not nec. fanatics) are planned but still in development. We already have a heavy cavalry designed, a Germanic skin variant of the Brihentin which looks very uniquely Germanic and will help against late enemy. Leather armor, including leather helms (yay Tollund man!) is being developed for high-end units which should give some boost for the units.

We definitely don't want a huge roster of similar and generic units so we appreciate all kinds of constructive criticism to make the game better. Already I have tried to start a process of diversifying the different spearmen ( because why would someone build spearman A over spearman B) even though the spear was the typical Germanic weapon, and more importantly we want the unique and advanced cultural aspects of the Germanics to be portrayed in the different classes of warriors and their uniquely simple yet potent art.
Thanks for the lengthy and thorough reply and explanation. I'm glad to hear of the planned improvements, and I about peed my pants over the spiked clubs, heavy cavalry, skin-wearing elites and a reform with chain armor...oh me oh my oh man...I'm giddy like a school girl ~D

Oh dear, oh goodness...what am I to do with myself to make the time pass?

@blitzkrieg
I have enough trouble pronouncing things in this game http://209.85.12.231/7061/41/emo/emot-psyduck.gif

[dezzerx]

Cool!!!!!!
I cant wait fo this!!!!!

I'm also playing an sweboz campain and loving, but I would realy want to have some wolfskin units!!!!



And also, since were talking about it, what kinds of tactics did sweboz used?
With them I use mostly the "standart-all-at-once-barbaric-charge" and ambushes , but is that historical? Also, with only some Wolves of Wodan to do the morale killing fast job winning with that tactics have usualy an large live price.

I usually form a shieldwall (by clicking the 'loose formation' button which makes the formation tighter). The I have the enemy crash against it and tire themselfs out, then I send my Haarri or Klubbomannoz or those guys with the swords around and flank 'em. Little to medium losses with this tactics, I use it when fighting against larger (I spread the wall rather thin) or equal forces. It can all fail tho if you let their cavalry flank your shieldwall but I usually use my flanking forces which are waiting behind the shieldwall to stop them.

Sometimes I also use the Roman checkerboard formation. Mostly against fewer or equal numbers. I get away with very few casualties on my side.

When attacking I usually make a sort of wedge formation with in front a good elite unit like the Merjoz. So I can cut trough their formation and divide their army in two parts. Then focus most of my forces on one half, while a smaller contingent of my forces keeps the other half busy, and overwhelm them.

I don't know about the historical accuracy but this is how I do it with the current troops. With the adding of the heavy cavalry etc I might adapt some of my tactics.

[Frostwulf]

Blitz is there going to be Heavy Cav(akin to Remi Mairepos) and Noble Cav(akin to Brihentin)? I believe there to be evidence enough for both. I also might have evidence of the Gallic German mercenaries defeating the Remi cavalry, and Caesar using Remi cavalry but nothing of certainty yet.

[blitzkrieg80]

you should notice I said "Marxaðegnōz ("Warhorse Retainers"- Brihentin reskin)" which means yes for the Brihentin ~:)

Unfortunately we don't have any model space for a med cavalry (the Remi Mairepos is the Brihentin model) but we could possibly use the Taramannos model [I just checked and its Germanic skin is indeed free!!], but would it look Germanic enough? I need to know if this is worth developing... also, would it then be the pre-Reform "Marxaðegnōz? No armor but better than the lower classes because of their retainer status/ training? This sounds pretty good to me, but let's develop it further.

Although I think this guy is a skirmisher which means it wouldn't really be a med cav, eh? Maybe it doesn't HAVE to be a skirmisher though

https://www.europabarbarorum.org/ebcomwww/i/units/arverni/arverni_taramonnos.gif

[blitzkrieg80]

Hello??

Eduardo was telling me of a great idea.... the Cimbri regional, those scary mofos mentioned by Plutarch:

"As for the Cimbri, their foot-soldiers advanced slowly from their defences, with a depth equal to their front, for each side of their formation had an extent of thirty furlongs; 7 and their horsemen, fifteen thousand strong, rode out in splendid style, with helmets made to resemble the maws of frightful wild beasts or the heads of strange animals, which, with their towering crests of feathers, made their wearers appear taller than they really were; they were also equipped with breastplates of iron, and carried gleaming white shields. For hurling, each man had two lances; and at close quarters they used large, heavy swords."

and it should really be a cavalry and it just so happens that there is a space left for a skin on the Taramannos which I just mentioned...

originally a Teuton unit was planned and it was a cavalry unit but that never got finished/submitted by the person who disappeared.... anyways, this seems like a great framework for the MED cavalry we were talking about. Cimbri > Teuton name-wise because it is ACTUALLY a Germanic tribe (oh yes, this is me rubbing your noses in the fact that if you think Teuton=German you got another thing coming). ~;p

[HFox]

Sweboz

When playing this campaign, I couldnt see the point of the two baltic archer units and to the difference.

If your looking for some space in the roster, have a peak at those. I may be wrong, and frequently am. ~:)

[Frostwulf]

Blitz from my readings the Germans didn't have any skirmisher cavalry. I was also wondering if the Remi Mairepos are considered heavy cavalry, then shouldn't the German unit also be heavy?

[SaFe]

Here it comes again...
Just because the known leaders of the Teutonii had celtic names doesn't mean they were celtic.
But who cares...

[Moros]

Blitz from my readings the Germans didn't have any skirmisher cavalry. I was also wondering if the Remi Mairepos are considered heavy cavalry, then shouldn't the German unit also be heavy?
The Remi Mairepos are heavy cavalry, that's for sure. They are about equal to the brehentin (speliing?) Having one point less in defence, but one more attack point.

The Ridoharjoz can't be qualified as heavy cavalry. But Blitz did say that the "Marxaðegnōz" would be brehenin reskins. Hence those guys will be heavy cavalry too.

[Justiciar]

I always figured the Teutones were lesser tribes subject to Cimbri autority. Vassals of a sort. Doesn't their name essentially mean "the Tribes"?

[Frostwulf]

Here it comes again...
Just because the known leaders of the Teutonii had celtic names doesn't mean they were celtic.
But who cares...
I care because of the historical movements of peoples. Malcolm Todd (The Northern Barbarians 100BC-AD300) seems to have changed or redefined his position on this subject. "There were, of course, many circumstances in which German and Celtic warriors met, either in combat or alliance. The great train of Cimbri and Teutones on its long progress through central Europe drew Celtic warriors along with it." pg.142


The Remi Mairepos are heavy cavalry, that's for sure. They are about equal to the brehentin (speliing?) Having one point less in defence, but one more attack point.

The Ridoharjoz can't be qualified as heavy cavalry. But Blitz did say that the "Marxaðegnōz" would be brehenin reskins. Hence those guys will be heavy cavalry too.
True enough, but I would tend to put to put most of the German cavalry into the Remi Mairepos arena because of the armor and high moral. Ariostovis and other Germanic leaders would be in the "Marxaðegnōz" but there are the others who joined Caesar, fought against Caesar who wouldn't have the armor of the "Marxaðegnōz". Thats just my thought on it, as I'm sure there are limits to the unit count. But I really feel that the moral should be around 16 though.


I always figured the Teutones were lesser tribes subject to Cimbri autority. Vassals of a sort. Doesn't their name essentially mean "the Tribes"?
I'm doubtful of this, they grouped up and separated several times and there seems to be no indication that I'm aware of that would support this.

[blitzkrieg80]

Well, I'm not going off of the leader-names... the Ambrones were not Germanic and they're integral to that triplet.

Just because the modern notion of Germans as "Teutonic" exists that doesn't mean that tribe whence the inappropriate adjective spawned actually spoke Germanic... similar to the "Germani"... c'mon, if it was such a strong identity, wouldn't Modern Germans, Dutch, ect. call themselves "German" instead of it only being a carry-over from Romanocentric fools who think that that is an ethnic name?

Don't mind an argument on that, t'is expected... I am just SO glad that no one is trying to claim that many scholars disagree on the language/culture of the Suebi :applause: that was some funny nonsense!


SaFe, any comments on the new units, ect? I know the Teuton unit and the Atheling might have been objectives of way back when you were FC... anyone have some sources to help on our wolf and bear warriors?

Frostwulf, I agree, even if an unarmored Gastiz/Thanes on horseback would be nice to see as a more formidable version of the "Riders."

[Geoffrey S]

Just because the modern notion of Germans as "Teutonic" exists that doesn't mean that tribe whence the inappropriate adjective spawned actually spoke Germanic... similar to the "Germani"... c'mon, if it was such a strong identity, wouldn't Modern Germans, Dutch, ect. call themselves "German" instead of it only being a carry-over from Romanocentric fools who think that that is an ethnic name?
Eh? Is that something that popped up in previous debates? 'Cause I don't see anyone saying that in this topic.

[blitzkrieg80]

No, I guess not, that's me babbling, no suprise eh? ~:thumb: That's my little spiel for the day (I said spiel!)

[Frostwulf]

Well, I'm not going off of the leader-names... the Ambrones were not Germanic and they're integral to that triplet.

Just because the modern notion of Germans as "Teutonic" exists that doesn't mean that tribe whence the inappropriate adjective spawned actually spoke Germanic... similar to the "Germani"... c'mon, if it was such a strong identity, wouldn't Modern Germans, Dutch, ect. call themselves "German" instead of it only being a carry-over from Romanocentric fools who think that that is an ethnic name?
Antonio Santosuosso-"Storming the Heavens"-"The clash was harsh and violent with both sides, Ambrones and Ligurians, uttering similar war cries since both claimed a similar descent, likely Celtic". pg.7
To my knowledge the Ligurians were an Italic tribe that became Celtisized.Most authors still claim that the Ambrones along with the Cimbri and Teutons are Germanic tribes. The TCA came from the same area but thats not to say that there wasn't some Celtic influence. I believe there had to be considering the arms and armor the TCA had. Also while the Germanic peoples loyalty was to ones own tribe, did they not have a word for all non-Germanic speakers? Also didn't the German when in Roman territory when asked ethnicity respond with Germani as opposed to Allemani,Suebi, etc. etc? I will agree that there was likely a Celtic element amongst the Ambrones and most certainly an influence there. But as far as the basic ethnicity I believe them to be Germanic, based upon the Greek and Roman statements and the archaeological finds. I'm glad your not going by the names of the leaders. Peter Ellis pretty much says that the TCA are Celtic because they had leaders with Celtic names,Celtic arms and armor and because the Romans sent Celtic speakers to talk with them. If this was the criteria then I guess Ariovistus was a Celt to. His name was possibly a Roman/Celtic derivative, he most likely had Celtic arms and armor and he himself spoke Celtic. Arminius was a Roman as he had Roman arms and armor, spoke latin and his name is Roman.
I sure you wouldn't agree with the Ellis's reasoning, but I'm curious why you believe the Ambrones to be Celtic?


Frostwulf, I agree, even if an unarmored Gastiz/Thanes on horseback would be nice to see as a more formidable version of the "Riders."
I figured you would, we tend to have the same view on these things. Will you be able to bring about this unit?

[blitzkrieg80]

What evidence is there that Germanic tribes claimed "Germani" in ethnicity? just a few Roman accounts which all copy each other, similar to their copying of Caesar's Germani since his use of it as a propoganda tool? anyways, we could go on forever, fact is that there was no consciousness of Germanic language nonetheless ethnicity... if "Germani" identity existed, it existed as Celtic Belgians who identified with being badass and on the other side of the Rhine

"Welsh" in fact is probably a reference to Volcae around Boii-hemia and Boii-varia and the Hercynian Forestland, that ended up becoming quite popular for Celts and Gauls, and later Romans but moreso the Romans in the province of Gaul... unless you mean "Other" which can mean all sorts of foreigness, such as "Otherworld" and second... seriously, the real number 2 is ander/'other'

well boys and girls... there's going to be some BIG changes next time you see Germanic units... really BIG stuff. really BIG (ok that's my bad attempt at an impression) every single unit is new and improved... seriously... \

guess what, Frostwulf- the new Germanic HVY (Brihentin) cavalry is completely superior in training and attack (+1 in pri and sec) to Celtic cavalry and thus hugely more expensive (and rare- yay!)... the armor is 1 point better for the Celtic cavalry, denoting their iron/smithing, prob extra trappings too... i think the Germanics have a defense point even to make up for the armor difference... I used your proof as an example of how they just have to be better, although nothing crazy biased

[keravnos]

Let's just say that the germanics are right now as good as we could possibly make them.

Many people from within EB toiled hard, but it was Blitz here who :whip: the whole process into happening. And that is no small a task.

[Frostwulf]

What evidence is there that Germanic tribes claimed "Germani" in ethnicity? just a few Roman accounts which all copy each other, similar to their copying of Caesar's Germani since his use of it as a propoganda tool? anyways, we could go on forever, fact is that there was no consciousness of Germanic language nonetheless ethnicity... if "Germani" identity existed, it existed as Celtic Belgians who identified with being badass and on the other side of the Rhine
Sorry if I gave the impression that the Germanic tribes considered themselves as a unified people.The Germanics to my knowledge never claimed any ethnicity as Germani, with the exception of when they were speaking to Romans in Roman territory. I will have to get a hold of spiedel's book as I believe that is where I read the information on this.


guess what, Frostwulf- the new Germanic HVY (Brihentin) cavalry is completely superior in training and attack (+1 in pri and sec) to Celtic cavalry and thus hugely more expensive (and rare- yay!)... the armor is 1 point better for the Celtic cavalry, denoting their iron/smithing, prob extra trappings too... i think the Germanics have a defense point even to make up for the armor difference... I used your proof as an example of how they just have to be better, although nothing crazy biased
Woot, Good job and again thanks for all the effort and taking the time to communicate with us.
I ended up finding more information by different authors on this subject as well as an interesting theory on the TCA. I hope to post on the German underpowered thread some time soon with this theory to see what you and others think of it.

[Olaf The Great]

I DEMAND bearded dwarves on rams, with guns!

And giant vikings with huge clubs with 15hp!

[blitzkrieg80]

Olaf, puleaze, talkabout SPAM... atleast it's a bump ~:)

Frostwulf, I actually would like to learn more information from sources I do not have concerning TCA, so keep in mind that I am using an argument/logic rather than quotes, because I don't have any readily available, thus I'd be happy to have some, even if I'm wrong ~:) I just find that most people naturally side with them being Germanic without evidence, so I like to confront the logic... anyways, more discussion on Germanics is always good

[Ludens]

Let's just say that the germanics are right now as good as we could possibly make them.

Many people from within EB toiled hard, but it was Blitz here who :whip: the whole process into happening. And that is no small a task.
~:thumb:

[Frostwulf]

Frostwulf, I actually would like to learn more information from sources I do not have concerning TCA, so keep in mind that I am using an argument/logic rather than quotes, because I don't have any readily available, thus I'd be happy to have some, even if I'm wrong I just find that most people naturally side with them being Germanic without evidence, so I like to confront the logic... anyways, more discussion on Germanics is always good
I'm the same way, if I'm wrong thats ok as long as we can get as close to the truth as possible. I'll try to get quotes regarding the TCA, but it may take a little bit. It mostly has to do with their point of origination and their return there. It's based on the archaeological evidence showing the area they came from being jastorf. There are a few other things but hopefully in the next two weeks I can get some information on this, I'll probably put them in the German thread.
I do have that theory and other information to put on the thread, hopefully will be able to do that this week.

[blitzkrieg80]

I'm wondering if we can put together some details on a Cimbri regional, which will be a skin of the Taramannos model... I would really like to get a new cavalry, as well as a unique regional for Jutland.

This means, anyone interesting in helping the Germanics with your knowledge or opinion, chime in.

https://www.europabarbarorum.org/ebcomwww/i/units/arverni/arverni_taramonnos.gif


"As for the Cimbri, their foot-soldiers advanced slowly from their defences, with a depth equal to their front, for each side of their formation had an extent of thirty furlongs; 7 and their horsemen, fifteen thousand strong, rode out in splendid style, with helmets made to resemble the maws of frightful wild beasts or the heads of strange animals, which, with their towering crests of feathers, made their wearers appear taller than they really were; they were also equipped with breastplates of iron, and carried gleaming white shields. For hurling, each man had two lances; and at close quarters they used large, heavy swords"(Plutarch).

if for some reason the Cimbri thing cannot be done because of model limitation or whatnot, we could possibly do a Tencteri regional instead, but that area already has 2 Chatti regionals, so Cimbri is more diverse... i'd also love a Rugii, but we have no information (I can't find a thing!) concerning the entirity of the EB timeline, nonetheless a good model space/skin.