Units with both spears and swords

[Son of Perun]

Every time I attack with Arjoz, Hypaspistai, etc, they charge with spears, then they switch to swords. When they wait for enemy, they have swords but they fight with spears. I`ve already learned how to use the right weapon, but it is unpleasant during the battle. Is it a bug? Or is it because the spear is 2ndary weapon?

[abou]

Every time I attack with Arjoz, Hypaspistai, etc, they charge with spears, then they switch to swords. When they wait for enemy, they have swords but they fight with spears. I`ve already learned how to use the right weapon, but it is unpleasant during the battle. Is it a bug? Or is it because the spear is 2ndary weapon?
This is actually kind of old. I posted something about it when I joined the team and made a fool of myself because the answer was known long ago.:laugh4:

Anyway, the problem is how RTW uses primary and secondary weapons. The Hypaspistai would charge with their spear and then either continue using it or switch to their sword - just as what happens in EB. Unfortunately, when a model gets knocked down it automatically switches to its secondary weapon. The reason for this is probably that CA didn't want missile units to get caught in a melee with their bow out the whole time and no way to fight back. It is intentional and there is nothing we can do about it.

[Son of Perun]

Thanks for explaining!

[mcantu]

It seems that spear units switch to the secondary weapon when the oppossing units gets in really close.

Swords are better against infantry anyway because spears get a penalty against infantry...

[Olaf The Great]

It seems that spear units switch to the secondary weapon when the oppossing units gets in really close.

Swords are better against infantry anyway because spears get a penalty against infantry...
That stupid attribute is no more, now they simply have bonuses versus cal.

But they usually have less lethality and base damage than swords

[EdwardL]

actually it looks as though the swords have speed advantage over spears and not much else, upon rough examination. I may get around to opening up the data folders and verifying that sometime.

ok example; (this is actually one of few units where the spear is faster than the sword)

type greek infantry hypaspistai
dictionary greek_infantry_hypaspistai ; Hypaspistai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_hypaspistai_massiloi_hoplitai, 30, 0, 1.3
officer officer_hellenic_officer
officer officer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect horse +1, camel +1, elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation 0.76, 2.4, 1.6, 1.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr spear

the number in blue represents the swing delay timer of the spear in 1/10's of a second, whereas the number in red represents the swords delay timer in 1/10's of a second. We can clearly see the spear is faster, however upon further examination of the units_desc, I see that the units are in a whole hodgepodge of different stats and weapon attributes; some sword users attacking faster with their swords as opposed to their secondary slower spears, some swords having piercing attributes while others have slashing (which may be properties that have no effect, and thats not to be confused with the attr line which does apply such properties as armor piercing or body piercing values)


Foot -

"And I thought that number at the end was the lethality."

Here is the info listed at hand according to the tool tip included in the export_desc_units

" Details of unit's primary weapon. If the unit has a missile weapon it must be the primary
; stat_pri From left to right
; attack factorf
; attack bonus factor if charging
; missile type fired (no if not a missile weapon type)
; range of missile
; amount of missile ammunition per man
; Weapon type = melee, thrown, missile, or siege_missile
; Tech type = simple, other, blade, archery or siege
; Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)
; Sound type when weapon hits = none, knife, mace, axe, sword, or spear
; Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second) "

IIRC, (sorry been a while since i modded) the lethality integer is stored in a seperate folder outside export_desc.. either seperate from the movement modifier folder or in fact with it.

[Foot]

Um, are you not comparing a javelin and a sword.



stat_pri 7, 0, javelin, 36.8, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 ,1




stat_sec 12, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13


And I thought that number at the end was the lethality.

Foot

[EdwardL]

oopsie, did I just cut and past the wrong lines? :P


Um, are you not comparing a javelin and a sword.



stat_pri 7, 0, javelin, 36.8, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 ,1




stat_sec 12, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13


And I thought that number at the end was the lethality.

Foot

corrected

[mcantu]

That stupid attribute is no more, now they simply have bonuses versus cal.

But they usually have less lethality and base damage than swords

Well there were/are some good things about that attribute...+4 attack against cav, uses cavs charge value against it, cav gets -4 attack. These are in addition to the base bonus vs cav...

[Olaf The Great]

Well there were/are some good things about that attribute...+4 attack against cav, uses cavs charge value against it, cav gets -4 attack. These are in addition to the base bonus vs cav...
Theres still + against calvary, but no - against infantry, which makes no sense.

[mcantu]

CA has said that spear was meant to be used for very long spears. light spear I think is more useful for most infantry w/shorter spears.

I've always understood that the - against sword infantry was to account for the unwieldiness of a long spear...

[Olaf The Great]

CA has said that spear was meant to be used for very long spears. light spear I think is more useful for most infantry w/shorter spears.

I've always understood that the - against sword infantry was to account for the unwieldiness of a long spear...
How is it Unwieldy?

[EdwardL]

How is it Unwieldy?

in a dense mass of men spears only serve as obstructions vs a sword

[mcantu]

Well imagine that youre wielding an 8-12ft long spear and the swordsman youre fighting gets in very close to your body...

[NeoSpartan]

Well imagine that youre wielding an 8-12ft long spear and the swordsman youre fighting gets in very close to your body...

A wall of shield and spear will kick the swordsman a**! :smash:
It is a misconception that a spear is less effective than a sword. Both weapons are good, with some slight advantages and disadvantages but nothing major. The only big difference comes in when fighting cavalry, and even that is not a HUGE difference.

[mcantu]

It makes sense though that a spearman would drop the spear and switch to his sword if his oppenent got in past his spear...

[NeoSpartan]

It makes sense though that a spearman would drop the spear and switch to his sword if his oppenent got in past his spear...

it depends.....

...there are too many variables that will affect the actions of the spearman and swordman alike.

Most of the time, the spear breaks and you need to use ur sword.

[Olaf The Great]

I think the only reason Spears have a bonus vs. cal is because they can PUSH the soldier off the horse, in real battles the guy might survive if he's strong, and may even get up and fight if he doesn't have any broken bones..but RTW can't do that so its just +attack

[mcantu]

I think the only reason Spears have a bonus vs. cal is because they can PUSH the soldier off the horse, in real battles the guy might survive if he's strong, and may even get up and fight if he doesn't have any broken bones..but RTW can't do that so its just +attack

and horses (trained or not) do not like running into a wall of pointy sticks...and once a charge is stopped, its very easy to reach the soldier on a horse with a spear and be far enough away that he can hurt you

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The other big advantage with a spear is that it keeps you out of reach of the horse's hooves. As to the knockdown thing, think about it. Knock a guy off his feet and he'll probably drop his spear, when he get back up he draws his sword.