The best heavy infantry

[ixidor]

Ok, I have been making some tests myself and i conclued that Venetian Heavy Infantry is most likely the Castle recruited Heavy Infantry (without thinking in that bodyguard troops with 2 HitPoints). Really, i put the guys against armored swordsmen, noble swordsmen, even dis. christian guard and dis. conquistadores, the guys seems to come on top most of the times. And against unists like heavy billmen and dis english/port knights, it's more like a butcher then a fight...

Now, let me explain my theory: if we could rank the attack and defence from the heavy infantry units, let's say we can put them in 3 classes: average, high and very high.

So, armored swordsmen for example, with his 22 defence i put him in a very high defence class, but with 13 attack he is only an average attacker. Now, dis. noble knights for example, with a 22 attack, we have a unit with very high attack, but with only 13 defence and no shield they have only average defence.

Now, look at VHI: they have 16 attack (and a great 5 bonus with charge by the way), which puts him in a high attack class, and with a 16 defence (plus a shield), they have a high (but not very high) defence. Now, if we join this with his armor piercing ability, i think we can all understand why i seem to beat every other unit with them. Basicly, these guys took a bit defense to power up his attack, but only the enough to still let his defense high enough to withstand strong attacks and charges, and still having a devastating 16 attack with, guess what, armor piercing.

Opinions?

[ixidor]

Note: it seems i forgot to test them against Varangian Guard... Let me try to see what happens.

[BadGenome]

I'd tend to agree. VHI wreck everything they meet, and may very well be the reason I play Venice so damn much. Armor penetration FTW! :2thumbsup:

Plus they look pretty boss, with or without armor upgrades.

[ixidor]

Back. Ok, once again VHI butchered. Damn, they seem to win all the times! Only occasionaly, and when i am the one in charge, i can beat them with the swordsmen or conquistadores, but they seem to undoubtly come on top in most of the fights.

By the way, here is the results of their first fight lol...


https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/TotalWar-VHIagainstVar.Guard.jpg

[The Stranger]

varangian guard sux in m2tw against everything... got beaten by damn light infantry in my campaign...

[Guru]

Yup, VHI are an excellent unit. They have at least one weak point: morale. As far as I know VHI's mental stats are similar to sergeant spearmen's. A high dread general will make these guys run for their lives while many "knightly" units like DC guard would still be fighting. By the way, have you tried them against hashashims or JHI? I'd like to see the results.

- Guru

[The Stranger]

JHI will slaughter them

[ixidor]

Well, actualy they didn't. VHI beat both of them. I did 3 fights each, i think that's enough for now. Here are the results for VHI versus JHI:


https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/TotalWar-VHIagainstJHI3.jpg

https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/TotalWar-VHIagainstJHI2.jpg

https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/TotalWar-VHIagainstJHI.jpg

Actually this makes much sense. If you see JHI has lower defence and no shield(10 against 16) and also lower attack then VHI (14 against 16), it's natural they lost. About hassassim, well, they don't have armor piercing and even with 2 HP, they are only 30 against 60, so they can give less blows then VHI. Besides, if dis. christian guard lost to them i was not seeing Hass beating them, but i did the fight non the less.

So, i think this makes VHI arguably the best heavy infantry unit in the game. Obviously JHI is still very good, especially due to their spear bonus, pretty handy against cavalry, but until now the guys seems to beat everybody. Or maybe i am just too good for general lol.

Note: i need so many time because the host site took HOURS to upload the print screens... So just wait i beet more and i show the VHI vs Hass soon

[FactionHeir]

So which difficulty level exactly were you using for your testing (only VH is the proper testing difficulty as I explained in several threads a long time ago due to the AI only then having the same morale as you do) and have you considered turning tables and using the unit to test against an AI controlled VHI? Usually nets big differences.

[ixidor]

I was testing in Hard. I can test in Very Hard though, if you think this would make much difference. I have the 1.2 patch by the way so the 2H axemen bug shouldn't exist.

By the way, here is VHI against Hass:


https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/TotalWar-VHIagainstHass3.jpg

https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/TotalWar-VHIagainstHass2.jpg

https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k52/kamhal_2006/TotalWar-VHIagainstHass.jpg

Quite a butcher.

[FactionHeir]

Well, in 1.2 it "shouldn't" as you say, but it still kind of does, if you got through the buglist.
Their anims are good against cavalry but useless against infantry except for the charge. They'll lose against town militia still currently.

The difference in morale levels by difficulty can be observed best if you pit 2 peasants vs 2 peasants and watch each side's morale status as they approach each other. Except on VH, the AI's morale will always be lower than yours. The only advantage the AI has over the human on higher difficulty levels is in siege battles, where the AI's towers shoot faster and your's slower.

[l3asu]

When testing ixidor i strongly suggest that you alway do it on medium because on hard or very hard enemy units stand up longer than a normal unit and maybe statistically upgraded.

Also if you have only one unit there is a chance of the general being killed and messing up your test, which is why i always take 4 units 3 in the front general in the back which will automatically come up when u start deployment and the AI will do the same. Charge in a do the test for more equal results :)

[The Stranger]

turn it around and youll see that JHI will beat VHI

[FactionHeir]

When testing ixidor i strongly suggest that you alway do it on medium because on hard or very hard enemy units stand up longer than a normal unit and maybe statistically upgraded.


Yes, they do "stand up" longer, but just as long as your own units, i.e. fair level ground. As for stat boni, I don't know where you got that idea (maybe RTW?) but that does not apply in M2TW.



Also if you have only one unit there is a chance of the general being killed and messing up your test, which is why i always take 4 units 3 in the front general in the back which will automatically come up when u start deployment and the AI will do the same. Charge in a do the test for more equal results :)

That I can somewhat agree with, although having more than 3 units in total on each side becomes a nightmare for actual testing. Charges also add random variation, as its random which unit gets to do its charge hit first (and some units have buggy charges, i.e. spearmen) so its best to attack normally without charging.

[ixidor]

Back guys. Now, i remade my tests, uing meddium, hard and very hard difficulty. I also made several tests. I conclued this:

Dis. conquistadores seems to be the better unit after all. I guess i made few combats against them and they probably had lucky in the first times since it seems they beat VHI in most of fights now. Also, perhaps due to his greater stamina, they beat dis. christian guard most of the times even though his attack and defense are equal. The difference usually comes when the troops start getting tired so i guess the stamina mad the difference. I should note that i made few fights though in this case. About the rest of the tests, VHI still kicks everybodies else ass. JHI is butchered all the time, sorry mate but that's what i see, and against Hass they usually start losing ground but soon they turn the battle. Against guys like armored swordsmen and noble swordsmen, they seem quite even, yet they seem to win more fights. Now, i didn't try dis. crusader knights but i postulate that they are more or less the same as dis. conquistadores and dis. christian guard since they have the same charatcs.

Well, in that case i change what i said, there are better after all lol. But they are still one of the top dogs. About their moral, just use a high chivalry general, that should keep them fighting for as long as necessary, even in the thoughest battles.

[zaher]

In unit vs unit battle Nubian archers killing DFK:balloon2:

[ixidor]

Well, if you can't get them you can't hurt them lol. They probably chased the archers for all the map recieving more and more damage am I right? I know that because I tried all the heavy infantry units against almughavers and they had not a single loss...

[Miracle]

I have to agree that VHI are the best non-spearwall heavy infantry in the game if we go by this definition of "best":

The best units are those that give the greatest advantage over your immediate adversaries for the greatest amount of time in the most crucial periods of the game.

Besides their great stats, there's also some faction-specific advantages. They are available from Fortress-level Barracks, unlike DCG which require Citadel-level Armouries and DC which requires New World settlements. They have an replenishment rate of 0.5 units/turn (0.7 units/turn with an Armoury) and can be built concurrently with DFK's. Venice also has Carroccio Standards (50 m radius of +5 morale) to compensate for the VHI's mediocre morale.

For second place I'd have to go with Swordsmen Militia. Since cities normally outnumber castles 10:1 to 3:1, having good quality heavy infantry from cities is an extremely important advantage. However since SM's don't have great stats and good stamina and morale they can only be used against mediocre or inferior troops.

[zaher]

To be fair, i love VHI too, but to say best... Ok , you tried vs dismounted Christian guard? Vs dismounted Boyar sons? Vs Hashashin? Vs Tabardariya?
Anyway, i hope, you making price of units equal, adding upgrades or valor when you experimenting in unit vs unit. When i experimented with Nubian archers i gave them valor 1 upgrade to be equal in price with DFK. Then i set them off-scirmish, and they shot 4 volleys of arrows until DFK got close ( 42 men left ) and then finished them in melee with maces. Good show !

[craziii]

you all should try dismounted polish knights. they own everything, even if the AI is in control.

[Mr Frost]

It should be born in mind in such tests that not only does the animation used by the unit have a huge effect {in some units , far more than stats : change Dismounted English Knight animation to Janissary Heavy Infantry to see that !} but also the actual model itself has an effect {though not nearly as pronounced as animation} .

Give the Highland rabble the exact same stats and animation as Venetian Heavy Infantry , and the actual Venetians should still be better with their longer reach weapons and I think the actual size of shield in the model has an effect too {from my observations} .



I concur however , that Venetian is the new Varangian Guard . {Old school TW players will know what I mean :yes: }

[Palaver]

Pikemen. I just started a thread.

[l3asu]

Don't worry byzantine lovers I have been doing tests on the new LTC with the rebalancing of the units and the variagain guards come up on top of every other infantry like they should.

I have yet to understand how the bug works with the pikeman but i bet they could smash them anyways

[Yesugey]

"Best heavy infantry" is not a simple subject, and we cant decide with just sending them to battle one by one and choosing who stands. There is cost factors, training buildings factors, speed, morale, bonuses...

My opinion, best heavy infantry is "Dismounted Polish Nobles". I usually send them both against cavalry and infantry, their strong morale even make crusaders waver. They also massacre Generals bodyguard waiting at the town center, with 15-20 losses. (with 90 unit scale)

I used them as a spearmen for 100 turns, they did excellent job even against charges, cut down any heavy cavalry... Without an armor pierced weapon or spearmen bonus..

But i was literally shocked when i checked their sheet and see no bonus against cavalry!

People know how any "best" swordsmen get killed by cavalry even without a charge, would understand what im trying to say: Polish nobles should be just like the other knights against cavalry, but they are beat the hell out of them and resist other knights really well.

Playing against them, i always fear more than any knights, or nobles. Well, probably thats because they are an early unit and i faced with them when i have no better armoured units. But my opinion stands still: Polish nobles are somehow make the game unbalanced at early stage, specially fighting against naked eastern warriors.

[Olse]

Does JHI suffered by bug?
they got high reputation from some user but in my game they were even easily beaten by DFK.