Mongols and Vienna

[Frantz]

Interesting to debate about the size and the possibilities of the mongol's army in central Europe in 1242 ...
First the size , at Mohi Batu and Subotai's army was about 40,000 strong , not much more anyway ... probably about 35,000 / 37,000 at the end of battle , then they were joined by the armies of Kaidu and Baidar ( they were 20,000 at the start so maybe around 15,000 remained ) so its probable a force of 50,000 mongols and auxiliars for the trust on Vienna ( conidering attriction and reinforcements values about the same ).
what infos you have ?

[Emp. Conralius]

that sounds about right...

[Red Peasant]

Goodnight Vienna! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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To see a world in a grain of sand,
And Heaven in a wild flower,
To hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.

William Blake.

[Frantz]

Well not that sure ... lets look other infos
the Austria Province was under Duke Fredrick
but more important the HRE was under Fedrick II also known as " Stupor Mundi " and even if he was more involved in italian affairs and at the end of his reign he still was a great emperor .
so we have the Mongols army of around 6 reduced Tumen ( but all hardened warriors )with some auxiliars ( few and not that motivated ) about 30 miles from Vienna ... 80 years later the Austrian province army was of 2000 knights and 7000 infantry troops (plus Vienna garrison ) , the numbers in 1242 werent probably that far ... btw the Fredrick II army was much more bigger but he needed 40 days to ask and form the army ...so ...

[czaralex]

It doesn't really matter how big an army Fred II had, because the HRE was heavy cavarly based army, since the times of Charlamagne. And as we all know knights don't do that well against the a feigned retreat by Mongol Horse archers ( aka Kalka River 1223) Thus the Mongols could have gotten anywhere they wanted to go, there was nothing to stop them except alcholic beverages ( http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif )

[This message has been edited by czaralex (edited 08-15-2002).]

[Toda Nebuchadnezzar]

Well we will soon find out. I tell you the person to ask these questions of is Magy. Or visit his Mongol Horde site. It will have most of the info you need.

[Orda Khan]

The fact that I would question is the role of Qaidu. At this point in time he was 10 or 11 years of age and hardly likely to be serving in let alone leading an army through Poland. Other sources have Baidar and Kadan Heading the push into Poland. Others name Baidar and Orda. As for conscripts I think there would have been a considerable amount, as the Mameluk Sultanate arose from those sold onot slavery by the Mongol force. At one point they outnumbered their Mongol captors http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Frantz]

well i think the HRE army under FRedrick II with the entusiast partecipation of all the Dukes and counts would be very superior than the mongols ( and it wasnt a mounted army but rather more an infantry one like all in germany from 1200 onward ) plus 10.000 castles were too much for the mongol army always not that great in sieges , and expect the partecipation of Luis IX as the catholic champion as always ... remember that just the fear of Fredrick II made the Muslim almost surrender Jerusalem ...
btw it would be an intereting battle too , maybe fought in Veneto if the mongols headed to Venetia or in Bavaria

[Orda Khan]

And at this time wasn't Hungary more powerful than its Austrian neighbour?
The forces of Batu would have been reinforced from Mongolia had the need arisen however when Ogedei died things altered. The push westward was halted because there was never again the same unity among the Mongol Khanates

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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."

[Bullethead]

Frantz said:
Quote its probable a force of 50,000 mongols and auxiliars for the trust on Vienna[/QUOTE]

Is Ditka coaching the Austrians? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif