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Rhyfelwyr
08-22-2007, 14:13
Just wonder how everyone thinks this will be implemented. It should have a pretty big impact on the game, and cause a lot of rebellions, revolts over rights to the crown (such as the Jacobites in Scotland) etc. If it is a world map, the religious system will have to be extended quite a lot over that of M2TW. There's Catholic, Protestant (and the different branches), Orthodox, Islam, Buddhism, Hindiusm, Paganism etc.

I hope religion causes some civil wars as well. Like the Jacobite Uprising in Scotland in 1745, trying to get the Catholic Prince Charlie on the UK's throne, with a Protestant King at the time. Jacobite soldiers would be really unique as well, depending on their Highland charge and great swords rather than pikes and muskets.

icek
08-22-2007, 14:20
I dont know about religion but if we talk about rebels then i hope there will be an event at the end of the game with creating Duché de Varsovie (Principality of warsaw) that will make some problems for Gerries and Russians.

TinCow
08-22-2007, 14:22
Religion in RTW:BI and M2TW is one of the things that actually seems to work pretty well as it stands. If they kept the current implementation style and simply added a few more religions on for the various factions, I would expect that it would integrate relatively painlessly.

They definitely need to bring back civil wars though. This is the era of the Jacobites, the American Revolution, the French Revolution, Mexican Independence, Greek Independence, the 1848 revolts, the US Civil War, and several dozen more that I won't bother to list. With Empire comes conflict with those peoples who have been colonized. That simply must be represented in the game for it to make any sense.

icek
08-22-2007, 14:24
not really, the game end date if i read correct is 1820. No Custer, no little bighorn , no North -South. But whole lot oportunities for expansion :)

Daveybaby
08-22-2007, 15:05
I would imagine that religion would play a much less significant role in the game than in the medieval setting. Economic activity would be more of a driving force behind the game - e.g. britain didnt invade india in order to spread christianity - it was to make money.

colonialism != crusades.

TinCow
08-22-2007, 15:17
not really, the game end date if i read correct is 1820. No Custer, no little bighorn , no North -South. But whole lot oportunities for expansion :)

1700 to 1820? That's a pretty short game.

Daveybaby
08-22-2007, 15:31
1700 to 1820? That's a pretty short game.
That depends on how many turns per year.

Stuperman
08-22-2007, 15:47
That depends on how many turns per year.

I think that TC was talking historically, Rtw covered almost 300 years, M2tw more than 400 and ETW will cover just 120....:inquisitive:

I hope they get rid of religion, the crusade mechanic is fun, but makes it really hard/scary/unappealing to be a non catholic faction. and it royally screws the orthodox factions.

Trax
08-22-2007, 16:15
1700 - 1820 is fine with me.
From the first years of the bayonet till the last years of the flintlock gun.

From 1700-1815 constant wars between great coalitions. After 1815 things cooled down considerably.

Monarch
08-22-2007, 16:39
I think that TC was talking historically, Rtw covered almost 300 years, M2tw more than 400 and ETW will cover just 120....:inquisitive:

I hope they get rid of religion, the crusade mechanic is fun, but makes it really hard/scary/unappealing to be a non catholic faction. and it royally screws the orthodox factions.

I personally prefer the smaller focus, maybe we'll get actual years back? No need to make it turns due to incredibly long time span.

Daveybaby
08-22-2007, 16:53
I think that TC was talking historically, Rtw covered almost 300 years, M2tw more than 400 and ETW will cover just 120....:inquisitive:
It all a matter of how much happens during that period. Its a pretty well known fact that as time goes on progress becomes more rapid - which is why the civ series, for example, actually changes the number of years that each turn takes. In the stone age it can be hundreds of years per turn, and by the modern age its only 1 year per turn, yet the rate at which interesting stuff happens (both in terms of technology and change of control across the map) remains roughly constant.

The number of years is irrelevant, its how much stuff you pack in there each turn that matters. You need time to use each technological innovation for a bit before the next one comes along. You need a balance between getting around the map quickly enough to keep you from getting bored, yet still have time to see the enemy coming and react accordingly.

If there was a total war style game covering the period of world wars I and II, it would only need 40 years from start to finish. You'd probably have 1 or 2 months per turn in that situation, but you'd still have plenty to keep you busy, because things moved so much faster during these periods than in roman, medival, or even napoleonic times.


I hope they get rid of religion, the crusade mechanic is fun, but makes it really hard/scary/unappealing to be a non catholic faction. and it royally screws the orthodox factions.
Agreed. Any crusade type gameplay is just going to seem totally out of place in napoleonic times. But, as the article linked to in one of the other threads states, its a completely new game engine, from the ground up.

Fate
08-22-2007, 16:54
I think that TC was talking historically, Rtw covered almost 300 years, M2tw more than 400 and ETW will cover just 120....:inquisitive:

Yes, but you must keep in mind, as aforementioned, turns per year (i wouldnt be suprised it it were 4 or more), and the fact that there would be an extraordinary amount of technological advancements in a relatively short time.

We could very well end up with month turns to show emphasis on the speed that things happenned, with the advanced technology. Where as in RTW and M2 it would take a considereable amount of time for an army to cross the map, where as in Empire, things would happen much faster.

Monarch
08-22-2007, 16:59
Agreed. Any crusade type gameplay is just going to seem totally out of place in napoleonic times. But, as the article linked to in one of the other threads states, its a completely new game engine, from the ground up.

I don't know much about this period of history, but I guess they could do something similiar like "expeditionary forces". Or something...I don't fancy going half way round the world with units just to get say India. I supposed one solution would be to make ships move alot further so you can sail like as fast as a crusade, but then I guess you can just hop around from port to port if they go really far in one turn without risking them in open water :/

It'll be a delicate balancing act I guess, interesting.

SaFe
08-22-2007, 17:02
Imagine Napoleon marching from France to Russia in 10 years.:wall:

I always had the opinion that the lenghty travel times were frustrating.

RTW:Marching from Rome to the forest of Germani in 3 or 4 years - unrealistic
M2: Marching from Rome to Jerusalem 5 or 6 years - more unrealistic even with ship transport.

Perhaps they solved the probelm this time...

lars573
08-22-2007, 17:22
Yes, but you must keep in mind, as aforementioned, turns per year (i wouldnt be suprised it it were 4 or more), and the fact that there would be an extraordinary amount of technological advancements in a relatively short time.
Actually I think it will be 2 turns per year. CA is of the opinion that >250 turns in the sweet spot for a campaign. So 120 years *2 (turns per year) =240 turns for a campagin.

Rhyfelwyr
08-22-2007, 18:08
2 turns per year seems ideal.

On religion, although there were no Crusade type expeditions during the ETW timeframe, there were still several religion-related civil wars. For example, as I said earlier, the Jacobites in the UK. Conflict between Catholic and Protestants will have to be well represented.

NagatsukaShumi
08-22-2007, 18:12
A smaller time frame didn't kill Shogun, in fact it was more focused. Empire looks like it will be a great game, although alot depends on how the AI handles the next step up when it hasn't entirely adapted to the previous revolution, who knows, I will buy it and give it a chance regardless.

Religion will probably feature in the same way it does now, there will just be more of it, which is fine by me to be entirely honest.

IrishArmenian
08-22-2007, 18:37
I'm not too keen on the 18th century, 3/4 of the world map with only 10 playable factions. However, that can be modded and is eclipsed by the new engine! Oh, joy!

Bob the Insane
08-22-2007, 19:38
Well 120 years are two turns per year is 240 turns (obviously) which is around that ideal turn number they worked out for M2TW...

Randarkmaan
08-22-2007, 19:43
I'm not too keen on the 18th century, 3/4 of the world map with only 10 playable factions. However, that can be modded and is eclipsed by the new engine! Oh, joy!

10 playable factions doesen't mean only 10 factions, it means 10 factions which are sort of meant to be played by the player, and probably at least 10-20 other factions which are unplayable, but can probably be unlocked just as easily as before (by editing text files).

But it can't be only 3/4 of the world, because in order to portray the trade you (and as the trade in India seems to be going to be important) you have to have atleast the whole of Eurasia, America and Africa (you need Africa to get to India).

Tamur
08-22-2007, 20:06
The ideal number of turns for a game is given by the following formula:

Given that:

r = the distance to the nearest pub (in metres)
s = the average change in bladder volume per turn (in millilitres)
g = a random number between 0 and 1
PoTTY = possible turns till you're-done


Then:

PoTTY = (r + s) * g + 25

Very ingenious, these folks at CA. Note: this formula was only obtained after great risk to life and limb, do not divulge to the public!

Rhyfelwyr
08-22-2007, 22:45
If you read at the .com, it says only 3 continents are included. Europe, Americas, and India I would guess.

NagatsukaShumi
08-23-2007, 13:20
If you read at the .com, it says only 3 continents are included. Europe, Americas, and India I would guess.

This is the most confusing part, purely because I would love to know how the map will look if it doesn't include Africa.

Daveybaby
08-23-2007, 13:40
This is the most confusing part, purely because I would love to know how the map will look if it doesn't include Africa.
It would certainly make getting to/from india much easier.

sapi
08-23-2007, 13:46
It would certainly make getting to/from india much easier.
:grin2:


Imagine Napoleon marching from France to Russia in 10 years.

I always had the opinion that the lenghty travel times were frustrating.

RTW:Marching from Rome to the forest of Germani in 3 or 4 years - unrealistic
M2: Marching from Rome to Jerusalem 5 or 6 years - more unrealistic even with ship transport.

Perhaps they solved the probelm this time...Hopefully the increased focus on navies has let CA give them a realistic movement distance; which should fix some of those problems...

Freedom Onanist
08-25-2007, 00:13
I think religion should treated as natural disaster in this era, a bit like the inquisitors in M2TW. If it appears you get strife, rebellions and your cultural and technological development is slowed down.

It's the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason!

Though in reality it never went away and played its usual baleful role in instigating major bloodshed.

It is worth noting that for example in India the British ruled with relatively few troops by leaving social and political structures alone as much as possible. It was only when they got all "onwards christian soldiers" in the Victorian age that missionaries really started to appear in India. At about which time the Indian Mutiny happened - go figure.

In Quebec, the Brits left well alone and things ticked over nicely without major interruptions.

Whereas in Ireland where they interferd drastically in society and religion it all went wrong from the start.

Mailman653
08-25-2007, 02:07
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90532
See this thread, religion is gone, politics are in.

The Celt
08-25-2007, 02:17
Concerning religion IGN said in a preview that.....oh never mind, Mailman beat me to it.
I don't like this idea as it probably means they're gonna clump religious sects and divisions together.(Like they have so far really. "Islam" "Orthodox" "Catholic", possibly Protestant, and thats it.)I hope they at least divide Islam properly this time, as this is really the era where the Sunni vs. Shia conflict begins.(As it was an important aspect of the Safavid-Ottoman conflict.)Plus their's the Shieks, who also show up in this period.(And consequently go completely ape shit on the Mughals, Maharatas, and the British.)

Personally, I wish they'd include Africa as it provides a passage to India(or to the west, if your thinking of bringing Hindu/Muslim soldiers to the new world.)and the European powers were quite involved in that continent as well.(*cough*slavetrade*cough*)

uanime5
08-25-2007, 20:15
If you read at the .com, it says only 3 continents are included. Europe, Americas, and India I would guess.

India isn't a continent, it's part of Asia.


Personally, I wish they'd include Africa as it provides a passage to India(or to the west, if your thinking of bringing Hindu/Muslim soldiers to the new world.)and the European powers were quite involved in that continent as well.(*cough*slavetrade*cough*)

Maybe the slave trade is why they don't want to include Africa, though they allowed slavery in RTW.

Mailman653
08-25-2007, 21:14
India isn't a continent, it's part of Asia.



Maybe the slave trade is why they don't want to include Africa, though they allowed slavery in RTW.

But during that era, slavery wasin't entirely about color, it was mostly the people of conquered nations who were turned to slaves and sent to Rome.

Geoffrey S
08-25-2007, 23:17
Africa, at the time, wasn't that important to Europe; slave trade, yes, but that was (financially) a relatively minor business. Major colonial possessions there and in most of Asia were gained by European nations in the 19th century; until then, they were mostly limited to the coasts (Africa) or to trading with the natives (Asia).

Discoman
08-26-2007, 01:41
Well the game may cover a short period of time but it was a very turbulent one. After all you got several wars in America, Europe, and Imperialism. If the game lasted longer we'd have Italian and German unification.

Zarky
08-26-2007, 13:39
Slavery really should be included!
Even if adding it would make all little *bad word* cry.
It´s history we´re talking about and slavery was part of it there´s no way getting around that. So what if Europeans/Americans say they don´t want to be seen as *again bad word* slaverers, they already did it.
Politics seems nice instead of religion... since religion became side fact in warring with other nations. It might affect changes to be influenced by propaganda or something if they add it.

Geoffrey S
08-26-2007, 13:59
But how relevant was slavetrade really? It mainly functioned in the trade triangle of Europe-Africa-Americas as a way of balancing the costs, and certainly in this period wasn't a factor of major importance economically or politically. It would be best represented as general trade I think.

ramela
08-26-2007, 17:28
3 Continents: Eurasia, America and Africa, leaving Australia and Antarctica out?

At least in my daughter's Geography book, Europe and Asia are considered a single continent, as are North and South America.

The Wizard
08-27-2007, 02:22
I would imagine that religion would play a much less significant role in the game than in the medieval setting. Economic activity would be more of a driving force behind the game - e.g. britain didnt invade india in order to spread christianity - it was to make money.

colonialism != crusades.

You forget that a very sizeable part of Africa, and all of Latin America, are bastions of Christianity thanks to colonial activities. Deep into the 20th century it was standard policy for colonial powers to sponsor and protect proselytizing clergy of their national religion.

I wonder if they'll include factors of anti- and atheism into the mix? I doubt it. In fact, I even doubt they'll include religion at all. Doing so certainly wouldn't stroke with popular imagination of the time, and that just ain't what CA does (or ever has).

Cornwallis
08-27-2007, 04:09
the slave trade was one of the most important economical factors in the World at the time, and far from "balancing costs", the fruit of the slave's labor contributed to the bulk of some nations' income.

Geoffrey S
08-27-2007, 10:41
Far less so in the eighteenth century than the seventeenth. The majority of trade money was made by bringing various finished products to colonies (for instance, in Indonesia or India), selling them for native raw materials such as spices and selling them for a high price in Europe. And even then, intercontinental trade was financially far less important than intracontinental trade; slave trade even less so. A in hindsight morally explosive trade was financially far less important than the disproportionate amount of later literature would imply.

pevergreen
08-27-2007, 10:43
Very true. :bow:

Vlad The Impaler
08-27-2007, 19:32
I agree with some statements that religion should play a lesser role in E:TW.
Why?
1)Because economics and resources were much more important
2)Nationalism appeared
3) I don't remember any significant religious war in that time
4)Western empires used to conscript a lot of muslin or other religion troops (gurkhas, indians or africans) especially for garisson duty but not only for that

Darkarbiter
08-30-2007, 10:53
India isn't a continent, it's part of Asia.



Maybe the slave trade is why they don't want to include Africa, though they allowed slavery in RTW.
Oh ffs
I'm guessing that means getting to india will involve going west. Concidering portugal is included thats a bit silly. The only thing they need to do if they mean to not offend people is to not make the AI automaticly go and collect slaves. So long as the human player has the option of never seeing it, it probably wont offend people.

sirnoob
08-30-2007, 11:11
It talks in the preview abot french possesions in north africa the only thing is it doesn't mention south africa

uanime5
08-30-2007, 11:54
3 Continents: Eurasia, America and Africa, leaving Australia and Antarctica out?

At least in my daughter's Geography book, Europe and Asia are considered a single continent, as are North and South America.

Calling Australia a continent is now outdated, this continent is now called Oceania and covers Australasia, Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia. Though 85% of the population of Oceania does live in Australia.

pevergreen
08-30-2007, 11:58
Oceania is not a Continent.

A Continent is a landmass

uanime5
08-31-2007, 15:06
A contient can include several countries that are not physically part of one land mass. For example Japan and the United Kingdom are parts of Asia and Europe, respectively, even though they are both comprised of islands of the coast of Asia and Europe, respectively.

Trax
08-31-2007, 19:14
In my language there is a fine difference between continent and "part of the world"

UK and Japan are not part of the continent Eurasia although they belong to the "parts of the world" Europa and Asia respectively.

Also Australia is a continent while Oceania is a "part of the world".
Is there anything like this in English?

pevergreen
08-31-2007, 23:52
No not really.

Continents:

North America (USA,Canada)
South America (Brasil, Argentina, Chile etc)
Europe (England, France, Spain, Italy, Ukraine, Part of Russia)
Asia (Part of Russia, China, Japan, Korea etc)
Africa (South Africa, Egypt etc)
Australia (Australia)
Antartica

Daveybaby
09-01-2007, 10:40
FYI: there is no single definition of what the continents are.

In some definitions europe and asia are separate continents, in others they are one single continent, eurasia.

In some definitions north and south america are combined.

etc.

However, i dont think india gets counted as a continent anywhere. The phrase 'the indian subcontinent' gets bandied around a lot, usually referrring to most of southern asia.

Azi Tohak
09-06-2007, 12:17
If you read at the .com, it says only 3 continents are included. Europe, Americas, and India I would guess.

That is ridiculous. Someone needs to look at a map. During the Age of Sail Europeans were literally touching every country on earth.

You can't have people magically go from North America to India... and that's it.

Maybe they mean 'EurAsia', 'Africa' and the 'Americas' (Australia, Antartica, even Japan don't count by this time period).

Geoffrey S
09-06-2007, 12:34
Oceania is not a Continent.

A Continent is a landmass
Not quite. A landmass is very relative, and depends highly on sea levels at a particular time. Remove large amounts of water, and you'll find that Australia, Micronesia and Polynesia are all part of one large continent, namely Oceania.