View Full Version : 'They fire first and think later,' say British soldiers
InsaneApache
08-25-2007, 13:16
Oh dear another 'blue on blue'. Very sad.
The friendly-fire deaths in Helmand have reopened a schism between American and British troops over how to fight the Taleban in Afghanistan.
Although publicly British commanders insist the Americans are still a vital ally in the fight against insurgents, privately British soldiers expressed concern and anger at their "gung-ho" approach.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2323959.ece
So, our American buddies, does the US military shoot first and ask questions later? There does seem to a lot of friendly fire' incidents from them. I havn't got any figures for UK forces doing a 'blue on blue', but there doesn't seem to be the same frequency from them.
Any thoughts?
Oh dear another 'blue on blue'. Very sad.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2323959.ece
So, our American buddies, does the US military shoot first and ask questions later? There does seem to a lot of friendly fire' incidents from them. I havn't got any figures for UK forces doing a 'blue on blue', but there doesn't seem to be the same frequency from them.
Any thoughts?
My first thought is to answer your question as a hesitant yes. Hesitant in the sense that warzones dont lend to analysis of who is shooting at you and where from.
The recent UK deaths as I saw on the news here in the U.S. it was UK forces that called in U.S. air support and something got mucked up in the coordinants (again thats how the latest incident was reported here...).
The % differences in force deployments naturally would have the U.S. involved in more incidents, but IMHO if were going to do this multi national thing we ought to let the Brits handle a sector on thier own and be done with it.
But yes, I think they shoot first in some cases but if we look at the % of men in the theatre and the conditions its hardly startling, on the contrary Im surprised there arent more friendly fire deaths.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-25-2007, 18:04
As I understand it the majoriety of troops in Helmand at the moment are British. I remember stories of Landrovers being shot ot oin Basra by Americans, a complete lack of recognition training for American trrops with regard to Allied equipment.
The bottom line is that the US isn't geared towards being a team player.
HoreTore
08-25-2007, 18:07
After spending a month with the royal marines, I'll be very surprised if the americans are any worse...
Though, the royal marines were kept in check by terminatorish british MP's....
Crazed Rabbit
08-25-2007, 18:16
Sometimes, like when people are shooting at you or Iranians are approaching, it's better to shoot first.
CR
HoreTore
08-25-2007, 18:35
Sometimes, like when people are shooting at you or Iranians are approaching, it's better to shoot first.
That's not a very good idea if allies are standing in front of you, now is it?
Crazed Rabbit
08-25-2007, 18:39
Did I say everytime? Or did I say sometimes?
Sheesh.
CR
Samurai Waki
08-25-2007, 18:41
Its an unfortunate thing that friendly fire occurs, and isn't just Americans killing allies, more often than not its Americans killing Americans. Some guy gets jumpy and starts firing on some guy in the distance carrying a Weapon, and then the rest get all jumpy... :furious3:
Sometimes, like when people are shooting at you [...] it's better to shoot first.
CR
So how can you shoot first when the other one is already shooting at you?:inquisitive: ~;)
HoreTore
08-25-2007, 19:05
Did I say everytime? Or did I say sometimes?
Well, this thread is about friendly fire, if you wasn't thinking of such cases, what did your statement add to the thread?
InsaneApache
08-25-2007, 19:19
Its an unfortunate thing that friendly fire occurs, and isn't just Americans killing allies, more often than not its Americans killing Americans. Some guy gets jumpy and starts firing on some guy in the distance carrying a Weapon, and then the rest get all jumpy... :furious3:
That's my reading of it as well. It's all well and good us sat here on our swivel chairs posting on a games forum, however something is badly amiss here.
Training? Tactics? Logistics? Language?
IIRC more UK troops were killed by 'coalition' (aka USA) that by Saddam.
Surely more can be done?
I would say better liaison, much better communciation, better target recognition training, more work on map reading. For both the US and the UK.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-25-2007, 22:54
That's my reading of it as well. It's all well and good us sat here on our swivel chairs posting on a games forum, however something is badly amiss here.
Training? Tactics? Logistics? Language?
IIRC more UK troops were killed by 'coalition' (aka USA) that by Saddam.
Surely more can be done?
About four times as many IRRC. Slypsy has the right of it, it all comes down to training.
That's my reading of it as well. It's all well and good us sat here on our swivel chairs posting on a games forum, however something is badly amiss here.
Training? Tactics? Logistics? Language?
IIRC more UK troops were killed by 'coalition' (aka USA) that by Saddam.
Surely more can be done?
Yes more can be done, domestically this must be fueling more talk of withdrawl from the theatre overall (iraq and afghanistan).
Thats what can be done, its the best overall solution for all involved on many levels. Untill that happens, logistics seems the best way forward as communication is key.
There is no doubt in my mind that the men and women on the ground over there, no matter thier coalition country are highly trained, they have just been over there to long in a half assed manner.
Samurai Waki
08-26-2007, 05:02
Communication is key... but more than that its having the discipline to actually Identify Your Target before firing. Its all well and good to say that had we known you guys were going to be in the sector we wouldn't have fired, but what happens when those soldiers come under heavy fire or decide to reroute around a target and some Jack Hole in the Distance immediately thinks 'Taliban!' I think some Sergeants and Officers need a lesson in using a Handy Tool that most soldiers come with: A Binocular...
Crazed Rabbit
08-26-2007, 05:05
Well, this thread is about friendly fire, if you wasn't thinking of such cases, what did your statement add to the thread?
Oh, gee, I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about shooting first and asking questions later. You know, like the title of the bloomin thread said!
:inquisitive:
CR
KukriKhan
08-26-2007, 05:14
Blue on Blue = Leadership failure.
Every time.
Whether it's rocks, sticks, bayonets, M16's, mortars, artillery, aerial bombing, whatever.
Some leader, somewhere, screwed up. Wrong map coordinates are the usual suspects, whether transmitted or received, or re-transmitted.
I offer my deepest condolences, however miserably inadequate, to the families and countrymen of the dead soldiers.
That this regretable accident was unintentional goes without saying. Nevertheless, we all recognize that such accidents are preventable.
Scant solace that it is, I promise that the screw-up, whoever he is, will lose not only his career, but also his freedom. We can do no less. :bow:
Banquo's Ghost
08-26-2007, 09:35
Scant solace that it is, I promise that the screw-up, whoever he is, will lose not only his career, but also his freedom. We can do no less. :bow:
I fear you are too optimistic, old buddy. It is not your honour code that informs your government.
So far, the US government has been unwilling to co-operate with UK inquiries, contributing almost no relevant evidence and rarely allowing the servicemen involved to be questioned. Information is not offered to a valued partner, but hidden as if from the enemy.
This position has been defended by the usual "national security" argument and the claim that the US has already conducted an inquiry of its own. And no, you don't need to see the report, everything is fine, trust us.
The servicemen involved have invariably been found to have been promoted or otherwise left untouched. This may well reflect on your other point, that the leadership is more culpable, but there is no evidence that anyone has been addressed at any other level either.
Since the British forces never get to know what actually happened, never see anyone punished/reprimanded, never see any signs that anyone has learned any lessons even, then you can understand why each time this happens again, the reaction tends to be angry.
The bottom line is that the US isn't geared towards being a team player.
QFT.
Geoffrey S
08-26-2007, 21:00
I'm seeing the current (UK and Dutch) coverage as being very one-sided. Sure, I'll accept that the US military has been less than forthcoming over other incidents and I don't think that's any way to treat an ally, but in this particular case too little is known about even the basic situation to jump to conclusions; it's not even certain on which side the fault lies. Did the bombers attack the wrong place due a mistake on their part, or did groundtroops send in the wrong coordinates? I haven't seen anything on this yet, but a lot of rushed conclusions.
Its not my job but...
If American soldiers first shot and then think then maybe Brits should do same.
If you really want to do it on your own don't ask your allies for support. And what Geofry_S says.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-27-2007, 11:38
I'm seeing the current (UK and Dutch) coverage as being very one-sided. Sure, I'll accept that the US military has been less than forthcoming over other incidents and I don't think that's any way to treat an ally, but in this particular case too little is known about even the basic situation to jump to conclusions; it's not even certain on which side the fault lies. Did the bombers attack the wrong place due a mistake on their part, or did groundtroops send in the wrong coordinates? I haven't seen anything on this yet, but a lot of rushed conclusions.
You have a point but the reaction is a result of past incidents, American demeanor and coverups/non-co-operation.
Geoffrey S
08-27-2007, 11:55
So essentially speculation based on previous occurances, but no hard facts yet.
CrossLOPER
08-27-2007, 19:09
Scant solace that it is, I promise that the screw-up, whoever he is, will lose not only his career, but also his freedom. We can do no less. :bow:
Give him a medal and a government position.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-27-2007, 23:12
So essentially speculation based on previous occurances, but no hard facts yet.
Conclusions based on past experience, which has remained pretty constant for about 50 years.
Boyar Son
08-27-2007, 23:49
“They have a different approach to us, if we get in an ambush we pull back and assess the situation," said another. "They try and shoot their way through it and kill as many people as possible.”
Different situations call for different tactics, if the ambush was in a crowded street you'll definetly have to think twice before spaying into which ever direction, but I doubt "if we get in an ambush we pull back and assess the situation" all British soldiers are commando like troops and cannot be fazed by AK-47's...
Like veterans of all wars says (more or less to this): If your not scared your a damn liar.
Samurai Waki
08-28-2007, 04:45
While this may be true, its a woeful failure on the Part of US Military Instructors (specifically Drill Sergeants), Every Soldier on the battlefield will be scared, but there are Drills and Methodical Training that can be used to an advantage, if you aren't afraid you'll probably die, if you're too afraid you'll panic, which can result in either pissing yourself, running, or killing someone on accident. Its finding the Middle Ground.
Geoffrey S
08-29-2007, 02:45
Not much of a surprise there, then. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6967982.stm) Not really the way to treat allies, is it?
InsaneApache
08-29-2007, 07:42
You might have thought that it would be the least they could do, would be to allow the family some closure on their childrens deaths, by revealing the facts.
If you don't inquire into mistakes and rectify them, they are sure to be repeated.
As is the case too often.
A bad reaction from an ally, a despicable one from a friend. :thumbsdown:
rory_20_uk
08-29-2007, 09:47
If that's their attitude, then we should pull out of both conflicts immediately.
~:smoking:
Samurai Waki
08-29-2007, 09:58
I think maybe that should be for the best, like any *good* friendship, when one friend starts taking advantage of the other its time to stop playing. Sure he'll pout about it for awhile and call you a wuss, but when nobody else wants to play he'll find out he's just like a School Yard Bully taking your lunch money.
Can't do that, but I would certainly think twice if they ask for help again. If it were dutch troops, with incidents like this, and being treated like that, I would be somewhat reluctant to come to their need again.
Can't do that, but I would certainly think twice if they ask for help again. If it were dutch troops, with incidents like this, and being treated like that, I would be somewhat reluctant to come to their need again.
I'd be reluctant anyway because you could assume you're just lucky that it's not dutch troops being treated that way, or maybe your troops just stay away far enough.
I'd be reluctant anyway because you could assume you're just lucky that it's not dutch troops being treated that way, or maybe your troops just stay away far enough.
We are quite on top of it, but we brought enough gear to not having to rely in allies, we have some rather unfortunate experiences when it comes to asking for air-support from our friends in the past. Like being given up.
I think maybe that should be for the best, like any *good* friendship, when one friend starts taking advantage of the other its time to stop playing. Sure he'll pout about it for awhile and call you a wuss, but when nobody else wants to play he'll find out he's just like a School Yard Bully taking your lunch money.
You are exactly right, yet they keep playing.
Do you think its stupidity or a belief in the cause?
I lean more toward stupidity at this point, its tragic that these men died by friendly fire but I have such a hard time fathoming how these troops are in the theatre at this point anyway.
In the states, day after day we are bombarded with how negative the wars are, and how much the world hates us yadda yadda (yes that includes EU countries). Yet they remain, are the political policies so entrenched over there that they cant pull out?
I mean Italy and Spain seemed to make short work of it, but yet some still linger despite overwhelming public opinion to the contrary. If infact its believed that the U.S. dosent care about its allies personnel, why remain?
It just strikes me as being in an abusive marriage, when do you finally cut the ties?
While I am in the minority here in the states, I think the best thing all coalition forces could do would be pull out and be done with the antique alliances of the past (NATO, UN) and everyone go at it on thier own. It would certainly correct a lot of US foriegn policy mistakes.
As a UN nember you have obligations towards the international community, simple as that. Some say screw that, and some don't.
As a UN nember you have obligations towards the international community, simple as that. Some say screw that, and some don't.
Yes, but troop deployment isnt mandatory.
Yet, your nations troops are still there. Why if they are undervalued by friends/allies?
Im not trying to be an ass (I dont need to try hard anyway), I am genuinely curious as to why countries continue the bombardment of unhapiness but continue to play along.
I truly am baffled at some of the choices made, most of which seem to contradict there own publics opinion.
War is in the background of the news here, we only hear something when there was a casualty, not that much info on operations, allies or our own. No bombardment whatsoever. Me and I suspect a lot of other dutchies think of it as a moral obligation towards those that helped us out. That and the war is going pretty well for us at least.
War is in the background of the news here, we only hear something when there was a casualty, not that much info on operations, allies or our own. No bombardment whatsoever. Me and I suspect a lot of other dutchies think of it as a moral obligation towards those that helped us out. That and the war is going pretty well for us at least.
As an american, let me say (and I should have prefaced this earlier) I appreciate your countries help and sacrafice. I think the past is just that, the past. And while its nice to help out someone who helped you in the past, at this stage of the game we know the mess created by the U.S. in these theatre's.
I would think it reasonable to be done with it under the simple premise of mismangement and move on. Again, spain and italy pulled it off. The alliance structure and past wars and subsequent inferred obligations between the U.S. and EU allies has to end.
If not for the EU's own morality, for the U.S. need for a spoonful of humility.
What mess? Taliban is getting their butts kicked in every encounter, just can't be everywhere at the same time. And in Iraq the PM thinks it's time to do it by himselve, the famous american positive attitude is pretty prone to setbacks it seems.
What mess? Taliban is getting their butts kicked in every encounter, just can't be everywhere at the same time. And in Iraq the PM thinks it's time to do it by himselve, the famous american positive attitude is pretty prone to setbacks it seems.
The mess is my opinion, if you believe otherwise by all means send more troops.
Arent you a young man? Maybe you could enlist yourself ! :thumbsup:
The mess is my opinion, if you believe otherwise by all means send more troops.
Arent you a young man? Maybe you could enlist yourself ! :thumbsup:
Maybe when I come into power. As for military, nope, too old, isn't that easy to become a soldier here. Besides, poor eyesight, flatfeet and cowardly character.
Maybe when I come into power. As for military, nope, too old, isn't that easy to become a soldier here. Besides, poor eyesight, flatfeet and cowardly character.
When you come into power? Odd, you have already changed my life.
:thumbsup:
Can't argue with that it's a mess indeed.
flattery will get you everywhere
I truly am baffled at some of the choices made, most of which seem to contradict there own publics opinion.
Isn't that the case almost everywhere?
Just look at Bush's approval ratings.
Also note that those who agree with current politics, don't go onto the streets shouting "Well done, well done, go on!":laugh4:
Maybe when I come into power. As for military, nope, too old, isn't that easy to become a soldier here. Besides, poor eyesight, flatfeet and cowardly character.
I was refused as well, I'm young enough but a physical wreck, apparently. ~;)
When you come into power? Odd, you have already changed my life.
:thumbsup:
Well, just have to read his signature. Well, if it makes you happy, I also think our troops should stay in Afghanistan. Not because you can then shoot all of them, but for the sake of the afghan people. ~;)
Isn't that the case almost everywhere?
Just look at Bush's approval ratings.
Also note that those who agree with current politics, don't go onto the streets shouting "Well done, well done, go on!":laugh4:
Yes it is, however my impression of the european political environment is much different then the U.S. due to the parlimentary system. We have 2 dominant parties so now your talking a true 2/3 majority to override the president which at the federal level is very hard.
Well, if it makes you happy, I also think our troops should stay in Afghanistan. Not because you can then shoot all of them, but for the sake of the afghan people. ~;)
It dosent make me happy actually, I dont think NATO or the U.S. should be over there. Again Im not the majority I am much more libertarian then most here in the states. I understand the undertaking in Afghanistan is noble in the sense of making a better life for the people.
But at its core is an attempted import of ideals that are founded on ethics and morality foriegn to these people. They have thier own culture and methods of conduct, let them find thier own way.
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