View Full Version : Creative Assembly Server multiplayer features (leagues, clans, etc)
GilJaysmith
08-19-2002, 19:20
OK, I'm about to do the server-side GameSpy programming. This is a thread to find out from the experts what will be most useful to provide in the time available.
You should probably pass on this thread if you aren't interested in hosting a league/ladder or providing a clan database.
What I will do:
a) produce some simple "This Player's Battle History", "Top 100 Players" and "See A Battle's Result" screens.
b) provide some simple ways to let you query the GameSpy server for battle results which you can then process in your own leagues
c) document the format of this information
d) make the queries as quick as possible
I'll go into these points in more detail in a moment, but first the bad news. I can't provide you with any clan management facilities on GameSpy.
Basically: on EA Play there was the facility for a full back-end database controlled through webpages and administerable by you the user with your login and password. But there's no provision that I can find for a similar system hosted on GameSpy and accessed through the web. It looks like it could be done if we integrated it all into the game EXE, but it's too late for that, and we'd have to be patching the EXE every time we got something wrong, which we don't have the resources to do.
The upshot is, if you want clans, the community will have to administer them itself. Regrettable but true, so put your efforts towards a community solution if you want one.
And now back to what I can do. Here is a brief description of what we do with the results of an internet game:
1) When the game starts, the host sends the following information to GameSpy to be logged as a new game:
- the game version - which will reflect which patch the host has installed. (We *will* be breaking network compatibility between versions.)
- the hosting player's name
- the name they've picked for their server
- the type of map (system or custom)
- the name of the map
- whether the battle is competitive or friendly (at the moment this is always "friendly")
- the type of game... at the moment this is always going to be "Last Man Standing" because that's all we've got
- the max number of players (2 to 8)
- the season
- the attacker and defender florin limits
- the time limit if there was one
2) When a game finishes successfully, we send extra information to GameSpy to update this 'new game' information and mark it as 'finished':
- the number of attackers and defenders
- the battle duration and whether the time limit was hit
- the winner (this will be one of the players on the winning alliance)
- information about each player: their GameSpy user id, their name, whether they were an attacker, how many men they killed, lost, and lost through routing
These game results, partial or complete, are stored in the GameSpy database - apparently forever.
So, my first aim is to accumulate these results into every player's scores in the GameSpy database. Then I write some web pages which let you see:
- the top N players
- details of a single player's battles
... basically, the sort of thing you have on the Shogun site. But no clan support, and furthermore we don't want to provide any kind of 'honour' system, just a simple battles fought/wins/losses summary, probably based on the last month's results to encourage continued participation.
Given today's date vs the release date, this is probably not going to be up and running the moment the game ships, but it should appear over the following weeks.
My second aim is to provide you with some way to get hold of the raw results.
Each of these battle results is basically the information I described above, in a long string, with a unique id number for that battle.
I can search and retrieve these strings using that battle id.
And/or I can use the player id of a player who fought in the battle, to retrieve all the battles they've fought in.
And/or I can bring back details of all the battles which were logged on a given date.
So it seems the easiest thing for me will be to write a couple of search pages to be invoked along these lines:
RetrieveBattleInfo.asp?BattleID=nnnn
retrieves you the results for a single battle
RetrieveBattleInfo.asp?BattleDate=dd/mm/yy
retrieves you all the results on a given date
RetrieveBattleInfo.asp?PlayerID=nnnn
retrieves you all the results for this player
RetrievePlayerInfo.asp?PlayerID=nnnn
retrieves any public information about this player
Note that a player id identifies a single GameSpy nickname - which, as per the healthy debate in an earlier thread, could mean that the same human player appears under
lots of different player ids. However, each nickname can only be used by one actual GameSpy account, so at least you know that the same player probably fought
all the battles with that nickname. (Subject to spouses, children, or invisible friends logging on with your details.)
The results which come back from these pages won't be formatted HTML, just simple text, containing the results. I'll provide painstaking documentation about the format of this text. Then you ("you" here meaning "anyone who wants to host a campaign / league / ladder / database") can process that information how you like, store it in your own database, etc.
I hope this approach doesn't disappoint too many people but we are very short on time and resources. If you come up with anything except a concisely expressed and truly great idea which also happens to be feasible with what I've got, I'm afraid it won't stand a chance. Therefore, if you want to suggest something, please try to make it at least approximately within the framework I'm outlining here.
What I'd particularly like is feedback from people who could host leagues or clan databases, telling me if there's anything additional they would require. The exact format of all the information I'll return is something we can discuss later; for now it's just the general "we'd need X" that I want to know.
Also, I'll want some volunteers to test some of these raw-data ASP pages once I've written them. Again, ideally these should be from the minority who will be making use of this information to provide community leagues etc.
Gil ~ CA
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
08-19-2002, 19:43
Thanx for that Gil.
Just wanted to know about registration. What exactly are the fields that will be needed.
Ie for STW/MI you had toput in a family name. Will there be anything like that for MTW or will it just be a name?
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
DragonCat
08-19-2002, 20:12
Actually, I'm relieved that I will have a week or two to play the strategy game before the online mayhem commences!
Thanks for the hard work Gil!
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DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!
GAH! GIL! GAH!
Better yet...
If you can make those pages to return something else instead... it would be great...
Make it so the page can return the results in an XML document!
GAH! GENIUS! GAH!
That way, nobody has to worry about parsing text to get results out and can write their own web bots to pull the information and dump it into their own databases with ease!
GAH! GENIUS! GAH!
And, for those that don't care, allow them to get results as text too, as you originally thought.
So, you could use a simple URL parameter to toggle between XML and text...
Like www.someurl.com/Player.asp?PlayerID=nnnn&GETXML=1 (http://www.someurl.com/Player.asp?PlayerID=nnnn&GETXML=1)
GETXML=1 for return XML
GETXML=0 for return text.
If the parameter is not even there, default it to 0.
GAH!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I hope I am not the only one that would want this... I could use this to expand the Horseman's Guillotine...
GAH!
Good and bad I must say. It's good that the stupid 'honour system' is finally removed and that we will be able to set up our own leagues.
Bad news that there will be no 'official' clan management http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif but I'm sure we will all find a way to organise ourselves.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
mizuYari
08-19-2002, 20:52
First, let me thank Gil for the detailed headsup. I intent to run online campaign and appreciate your work.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
And now back to what I can do. Here is a brief description of what we do with the results of an internet game:
1) When the game starts, the host sends the following information to GameSpy to be logged as a new game:
- the game version - which will reflect which patch the host has installed. (We *will* be breaking network compatibility between versions.)
- the hosting player's name
- the name they've picked for their server
- the type of map (system or custom)
- the name of the map
- whether the battle is competitive or friendly (at the moment this is always "friendly")
- the type of game... at the moment this is always going to be "Last Man Standing" because that's all we've got
- the max number of players (2 to 8)
- the season
- the attacker and defender florin limits
- the time limit if there was one
There are seasons? Thought this is gone...
Looks like the info was sent at game setup, not at actual game start?
2) When a game finishes successfully, we send extra information to GameSpy to update this 'new game' information and mark it as 'finished':
- the number of attackers and defenders
- the battle duration and whether the time limit was hit
- the winner (this will be one of the players on the winning alliance)
The winning side is more useful but this and the player details below would allow correlation. My point is: team effort must be rewarded, when a team win, all players must be recognized.
- information about each player: their GameSpy user id, their name, whether they were an attacker, how many men they killed, lost, and lost through routing
The number of men killed is not that important (killing 10000 peasants doesn't worth as much as killing or capturing the enemy's general). The number of florins equivalent is a more useful info for online campaign (we want to deduct the florins from the armies: winning a battle while preserving your force is more important).
If it is not possible to incorporate the above into current release, it is still OK with the info you provided. Thanks.
MizuYari
Konnichiwa Gil Jaysmith sama,
Does this also mean that MTW will allow unlimited nicks/CD key?
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Quote Originally posted by mizuYari:
...The number of men killed is not that important (killing 10000 peasants doesn't worth as much as killing or capturing the enemy's general). The number of florins equivalent is a more useful info for online campaign (we want to deduct the florins from the armies: winning a battle while preserving your force is more important).
[/QUOTE]
GAH! Have you no shame? GAH!
A man's life is worth more than a few grubby florins! Why should a meager peasant, a poor man of simple means, be considered less valuable than some bastid that dresses up in metal and has a hundred servants blowing hot air up his arse?
This kind of economic discrimination has no place in the world! What's next, giving nicknames virtues and vices? GAH! Why, that would mean Playa X could be a grubby peasant that is a glutonous, cowardly pig and a secret heretic and a pedofile!
How much more misery must we pile on to the salt of the provinces?
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif
But, I still think its a good idea... as long as the body count is included too...
GAH!
GilJaysmith
08-19-2002, 22:23
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
When you log into GameSpy through MTW you need to provide an email address and password which you've previously registered at GameSpy, and also a nickname, ditto.
Normally, GameSpy nicks are shared, so my choice nick of 'Panda' could conceivably also be being used by umpteen other GameSpy users. However, once a player logs in with a given nick, MTW reserves that nick for that person. So, for example, 'Panda' is now reserved for giljaysmith@hotmail.com, and no-one else should be able to log into MTW with it.
There's no family names.
The only information I'll be able to return in my 'query for player details' page, is what that player entered when they registered with GameSpy. According to GS docs, I can get you some or all of: first name, last name, ICQ number, home URL, postcode, and country. In other words, not a lot, and very little of it mandatory.
Vanya
XML was exactly what I had in mind, as it'll mean we're all (slightly) future-proofed against patch and add-on changes, and it'll make my personal debugging a mite faster.
mizuYari
Seasons are gone from the campaign game in the sense that each turn is now a year long. but if you fight enough battles in the same turn, you'll find you get some winter battles. But when you host a multiplayer game, you can choose to fight it in any season.
The "winning player" thing will need us to correlate what we've got, which will be a slightly irritating implementation detail. It's because the results we send up are a copy of the results we maintain in the game, and in the game we use a player id and correlate it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It would be a good idea to add something breaking down the men killed by troop type, but it's probably not possible for the patch. Add-on territory, maybe.
TosaInu
Yes, multiple nicks per CD key. We'll have to look to the community to find effective ways of managing potential abuse, which is good since there are more of you to think about it than there are of me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Gil ~ CA
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Konnichiwa Gil Jaysmith sama,
Multiple nicks is the very root of abuse.
You can try to prevent abuse by fighting each type of it. For example the rushtax, but if you do that you just prevented only one thing, even worse, there are quite a few valid and not abusive circumstances to use an unbalanced army. I know that the rushtax doesn't prevent picking 16 units of the same type, but if you do so you're at a serious disadvantage.
The multiple nicks are a very bad thing:
-cheat in ladders.
-zero social control: act like a jerk (monkrushes, teamkilling, cursing, camping, escaping) for a while and then continue with a new nick.
-clan infiltration -> paranoia. I've seen a lot of clans being destroyed because of a few jerks who misused nicks.
Wouldn't it be possible to allow for only one nick? One simple solution that would fix many issues at once, and would not limit users who want to try something different with friends: there are also people who play this game just for fun. It doesn't seem right to take their fun away just to protect the interest of the few 'fight for blood' types.
or
1 nick that allows comp and friendly
and
1 nick for friendly only.
STW had about anything hardwired, but exactely the thing that caused problems was open: nicks.
Since the CD-key is linked to a nick, it shouldn't be impossible to prevent creating another nick for that key.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
mizuYari
08-20-2002, 00:19
Vanya:
HAG!
Iam trying to spare the life of those peasants. If capturing the nobles worth more money, so it would seem more profitable to pursue and capture the general than trying to kill the peasants. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
HAG!
Heads of Kensai Vanya is more tasty: meatier and fatter than peasants' skin-over-skull.
Kensai Vanya captured would worth something even more!
HAG!
Gil
I understand well the difficulties involved.
Worth case, I would require submission of the battlelog for campaign processing.
MizuYari
BarryNoDachi
08-20-2002, 01:43
gil, tosa is right this would save a great deal of bad sportmanship within our community, basically we would really appreciate something like this being implemented.
we need a way of tracing nicknames that belong to the same ppl be it by having only one nick per cd, or something like multiply nicks linked to a single cd (if they want multiple names) anyway it would be v good if this was done and im sure that every vet within this community would agree
plz come forward if you dont http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
GAH!
Multiple nicks is a GOOD thing!
Here is why.
We all know there are some sour grapes amidst us. And true, the spoil fun for others.
But, these same malicious people could attack your online 'reputation' just to torment you. Others may prove gullible and fall for his slander. Next thing you know, nobody will play with you for no other reason than some idiot decided to vent his attacks on you!
That is not fair to the 'good' players.
And we all know how frequently such abusive attacks happen in the current online foyer. In fact, Vanya, in His infinite wisdom, thinks the multiple nick problem is so exacerbated BECAUSE of this! People find themselves scarred by the attacks, and then find that a new nick is the only way to start over.
"It is far better than to let 1,000 guilty men go free than to condemn a single innocent man."
-- Vanya
This truth should ALSO be the case online. Lets not rush to stymie our online freedom because of a few bad apples.
Instead, 'tis better to have an online administrator that can boot abusive players temporarily.
But, the ability to make new nicks is really the FIRST, LAST, and ONLY means available to start over fresh.
Y'all need to grow a thicker skin! If you get offended by some idiot online, just laugh at him and ignore him. If you give in to their taunts, they have already won.
GAH!
[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 08-19-2002).]
And limiting 1 nick per CD Key... STUPID! I mean, that's like the developer hog-tying themselves by putting a cap on how many players in one household can play! They want MORE players to play, not FEWER!
What's next, tying your CD Key (and therefore nick) to your social security number of driver's license? Criminal record?
Next thing you know you could get your credit report, apply for a credit card and open a banking account while logged in to GameSpy, along with searching through a list of Shoggy players that are registered sex offenders in your area!
GAH!
Ridiculous...
[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 08-19-2002).]
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
08-20-2002, 02:38
lol Vanya how do u manage to think up these things.
But i have to agree with Tosa here. 1nick/cd-key would help us out alot on a community basis.
I guess the only problem is people forgetting their password.
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
Well, Tosa is right yes, but Vanya has a very good point. Whatever the system used, malicious members will always find a way to torment innocent people. Having 1 nick per cd key would be like saying "you have one online life...if you *uck up you can't remove your label". One of the reasons I play online is the freedom that one has on the Net...I don't think the developers want to deny one of the fundamental pillars of the Internet.
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
evil is within us... http://www.totalwar.org/site/emomalta.gif
ElmarkOFear
08-20-2002, 03:26
Gil, What you have there looks fine. Most of our campaign data is received from the logfiles, since we use the ending troops counts to update troop strengths. One thing which WOULD be useful, would be able to query how many times the player has dropped and ALSO how many of those times was due to hitting the escape key or turning off PC. That was one of the major problems with the honor system. Thnx, it is great to have you here discussing our needs, I'm getting a warm fuzzy feeling here . . ELMO LOOKS FOR VANYA SO HE CAN GIVE HIM A BIG HUG!! LOL
Dionysus9
08-20-2002, 05:01
I like Kraellin's idea about Cdkey ignore, below.
As to the posting of battle stats: I know the campaign guys would like to have florin values. Then again, I suppose they can create those in their own .xml spreadhseets using the units and upgrades that would already be in the logfile.
Same goes for team credit for a win. Gil, one thing I've been noticing more lately is that raw-kills doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with the best play on the team. Sometimes one guy will hold off 3 enemies, taking incredible losses--and actually pull it off-- meanwhile his buddies get a ton of rout kills. Now I dont know how you account for that in the logfile...?
A kill to loss ratio per game would be nice.
[This message has been edited by Dionysus9 (edited 08-20-2002).]
Interestin.........im sure ur gunna be kept busy here http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Kraellin
08-20-2002, 08:23
seems like to me that if you have unlimited nicks then i shld at least be able to #ignore your cd key, and thus ALL the nicks that use that key. a 'ban cd key from game (or room)' feature would also be nice.
as for the original topic, gil, regardless of whatever other format you use, please make the basic one in .txt. not all of us will use this information on a web site.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Dionysus9
08-20-2002, 09:05
...
[This message has been edited by Dionysus9 (edited 08-20-2002).]
ShadeHonestus
08-20-2002, 10:33
GilJaysmith,
I sort of saw this coming when I learned it was going to be on Gamespy, but I think this could turn into an asset as we have a chance to possibly compile the raw stats into our own databases. I'm currently writing a tournament program that would track the players' stats (individually and by clan) as they progressed through the brackets. Using SQL and Cold Fusion as the basic tech (started it in ASP but went for CF).
Anyway, it sounds like the Tables used for the data coming back from the GameSpy Server will be fairly simple. Is there any way that at least some of us could be granted access to the database, not in a write capacity of course, but to access externally for use inside SQL statements to update local databases.
Basically, I would like the players to be able to input a Battle ID, which Queries your database against the Player ID's which are in the match. When this is returned true, I could populate my database automatically with the results and thereby advancing the winner and compiling tourney stats automatically using my program.
---
[This message has been edited by ShadeHonestus (edited 08-20-2002).]
BarryNoDachi
08-20-2002, 11:33
i am confused here and am not sure http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif vanya has a point. no-one will ever get a second chance http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
Konnichiwa,
Vanya san puts it in reverse: the entire community is suffering because a couple of bad boys abuse multiple nicks.
The best way to lose your password is by having 1,000 nicks.
Question Vanya? How do you track a 'idiot' when he hides under a different name each time? Second question? Are we supposed to play a game, or tracking 'idiots'?
Third question? Are you aware of what we'll get when 'idiots' can move around freely and ruin every game? Fourth question? How do you distinct between a genuine newbie who needs help and a 'idiot' who plays a foul game?
Fith question? How do you think that any ladder would ever work if one person can participate more than once?
And about the stuff about privacy, households etc, the proposal was:
1 nick for friendly and comp
1-more for friendly only
An online administrator?
-Who's going to pay that?
-Who's going to be it?
-What should I do to please the SystemLord?
Give me 1 nick and let me be.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
mizuYari
08-20-2002, 14:46
I have divergence view with TosaInu in term of solution, while admit he is right about the problem. I agree with Vanya on the point that single nick per CD Key is restrictive.
I would like to enquire about a solution.
1. Looks like the system will use Nick ID number to querry everything and would appear in each record (hope it will appear in the battle log as well).
2. If the Nick ID has two parts: one part is a unique number that identify the CD Key (but not the CD Key itself) I call it the ID number and the second part is a serial number that increments each time a new nick is created for that CD Key.
Implementation implication:
The registration process has to look up in database the CD Key, assign the ID number if first time, retrieve the ID number if existing, append a serial number for a new nick.
Community Implication:
1. Campaign hosts will make sure people dont cheat by signing up with many nicks by looking up the first part of the ID number;
2. The querry could easily return all the
nicks of the same CDKey.
User Implication:
1. The number of nick is limited by the serial number resolution. Says, if the ID is a 10 digit number, first 7 digits identify a particular CD, the last 3 digits identify a nick, the user may have only 1000 nicks to play with. If 1000 nick is a problem, 10 nicks could be a reasonnable number.
2. Knowing that the ID number will identify you, the user may not want to create too many nicks.
I thought about using the CDKey itself to identify a person, but publishing CDKey is a bad idea. That why CDKey is used only at registration, under control of CA or Gamespy.
Now, let me elaborate on why multiple nick would make online campaign more difficult. An idiot cheater would create 3-4 nicks, join online campaign and take over 3-4 powers. Then he allies to his own nicks, putting other honest players in disadvantage.
Is the above a compromise? Perhaps not.
Here is another idea. On top of the above, a two parts nick is required:
1. Part one is the "AKA" name, or the nick itself. In this case, I would put MizuYari. This part, I can register as many as I want (WoodBox for instance). This part correspond to the Nick field.
2. Part two is the surname, where you would name yourself at the registration time. This name won't change. This part correspond to the ID field.
3. Both parts of the name would appear on the screen in chatroom.
This means you can restart a new life, join a clan, etc. (GAH! VANYA!) But you would still have the trace of your past with you in the surname.
It would be even better if we can type #ignore (MizuKraellin's request).
MizuYari
ShadeHonestus
08-20-2002, 21:02
bump
Thanks for the opportunity to contribute Gil!
For me setting up a clan database I think that the info such as
1. Number of Battles fought
2. Wins
3. Loses
4. How many kills
5. How many Losses
6. Loses through routing
7. Battles won through Esc/dropping
8. Battles lost due to Esc/Dropping
These would be sufficient.
As a Clan designer I think the issue for me will be how to gather the infomation provided. Text files or even Excel format would be even better to manager the data.
I for one already spend a lot of time just on designing my site and to now to have to manage player statistics, it is a bit of a pain in the bum. But anyway http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
A) I think it would be good to be able to obtain players info in bulk. If I have 10 or 20 or more players in my clan I don`t want to have to individually put in all their name or id number to obtain info one at a time.
I know the game has gone gold but....no harm in asking..
During the internet game setup when the player chooses his/her army is there anyway that players could enter in a clan name. With this clan name added to the Gamespy info, one could then catergorize players according to clans and would make grouping and obtaining bulk clan/player information easier.
B) It would also be great to be able to obtain information for players over set periods of time. For example, info over the last week, 2 weeks, month, 2 months etc
Whithout this I will have to sift through mountains of data especially after half to a year of full online playing. Especially if I am not constant at updating my stats every week, sifting through past dates day by day is going to be tiresome and frustrating.
My knowledge of what is possible and what is not is limited.
If my questions or ideas seem laughable then at least I gave you a good laugh, so not all was waisted.
Regards Alibaba
ShadeHonestus
08-20-2002, 22:11
Alibaba,
Depending on the Platform you are hosting on, using dynamic statements within stored procedures and the like can make updating your local information very easy...
Of course, it'd be nice to know if we will have the ability to query the database in order to make any of this work.
I'm thinking I could become disapointed if we just were able to view stats as we do now as I think there is a golden opportunity for the community here.
Any chance of us connecting to the info directly via dynamic languages?
Konnichiwa MizuYari san,
I don't think our view about how it should be done differs that much.
I like your solution, but it's not fully waterproof.
Some of us allow a younger brother/sister, husband/wife to (occasionaly) play with our copy. It would be unthinkable that say Magyar would allow his wife to play comp games while using his nick. Indeed you could create a second nick like you described above, but now think of a nifty ladder that takes all nicks from one ID into account to calculate the rankings (note: laddercheating like done now would still be ,albeit limited, possible). So you would want a friendly only nick here.
The privacy issue is also valid: it should not be the case that one can abuse it, but it should be possible to join the server and play a bit without being 'bothered'.
The ID tracking method would make this impossible.
The point of a second chance. That's not covered with this method either as one can easily track you. Which is a good thing in normal circumstances, as the very idea is to limit the disasters seen in STW.
A second chance would be ok, but allowing a third, fourth, fifth........ would just result in the same sadness we've now.
Gil Jaysmith sama said that there would be no official clanadministration. So no badge system. Thus in order to legally change the nick to fit a clan (say a given clan uses pre- or subfixes: prefixes are the only way to get a grouplisting in the foyer) one would have to change the nick.
I do know the nickadministration at gamespy, (TosaInu is the nick I use there) it's quite rigid. Did I understood it well that a 'custom' signupform is used for MTW? I guess GameSpy also uses a kind of database to store nicks. Since MTW will have a slightly different 'nickpolicy' than GameSpy, I also presume that there would be a 'custom' signupform.
I'ld like to suggest a merge of proposed systems:
The signup. There's no official clanadministration. The very reason that some clans use prefixes is the wish to group clanmembers in the chatfoyer (to ease chat and but also as a mark of recognition).
In STW the prefix had to be part of the nick.
The problem is that when one joins a clan or switches from one to the other (the legal one), one had to register again and lost his ranking.
I'ld suggest to have 3 fields in the signup: a Tag, a Nick and the CDkey to confirm (when playing a online game this key is somehow checked and stored anyway). Like MizuYari suggests an ID# is created.
Editing the tag should be free (one can start clanless or switch one). The tag will be put between brackets (brackets should not be allowed in the nick in that case) and concated with the nick to display the foyer name. Example: Tag Link Nick Slice -> [Link]Slice . The brackets (or any other key) should be disallowed in nicks because Tag Nick [Link]Slice would give the same result and thus cause a confusing situation in the foyer.
I'ld call this one the comp/friendly/clan ID.
The user could choose to create a new one like MizuYari suggested, in that case the second part of the ID is upped by 1. In order to make it any effective only 10 should be allowed at max. Laddercheating would have to be prevented by catching the first part of the ID as stated before (or not, recall that we'll work with raw data and can compile our own ladders).
This option could be used for a second chance (in some cases).
Together with the comp/friendly/clan nick, the user can register one account for friendlies. This one doesn't offer the Tag field, does not allow to play comp and has a different ID, which allows the same increasing as the previous one.
This nick can safely be used by familymembers, privacy (since the ID is different it's not linked to the comp nick) and a second chance for disgraces (the punishment is of course that comps can't be played, but then don't be a disgrace and the compnicks can still be used, but you'll be recognised).
Vanya should not be worried about his creditcard, but the current situation should be changed.
Edit:
I'ld add that only the ranking of the highest ID should be activated. Otherwise one could still perform the 'honorstealing'.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 08-20-2002).]
ShadeHonestus
08-20-2002, 23:24
Tosa,
We can easily create an official/unofficial clan ladder system either here at the org or wherever as long as we can query the database. Individuals/clan administrators would have to register their clans at the org for example. After that, when coming to the org results can be viewed by clan, etc. In fact the message board..although you already have a fine one here, can be powered by that same data. Actually when you think about it, the possibilities are endless. All we have to be able to do is access the database in a read capacity through SQL statements...piece of cake.
I would really like to get a response to whether or not they can at least consider giving us this capability..since official organization is going to be lacking so much.
Konnichiwa,
The clantag in the nickcreation only serves organisation in the GameSpy chatroom.
It would be a good thing to have a central unofficial clanadministration.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
08-20-2002, 23:37
Yeah but then still people will make false names under those clannicks and f*** things up. So we are never safe.
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Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
ShadeHonestus
08-20-2002, 23:41
Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
Konnichiwa,
The clantag in the nickcreation only serves organisation in the GameSpy chatroom.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that would be nice....
Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
It would be a good thing to have a central unofficial clanadministration.
[/QUOTE]
Very true, and at least people could see who was and wasn't a clan member for those who infringe on the clan name.
I do almost have a protype up for such just such an unofficial clan admin for use whether they do or do not allow us that access. If they don't we can use it just to track tourney wins. I will shoot you the URL when its done...probably about a week off yet considering the time I have taken to work a new clan design.
Quote Originally posted by Toda Nebuchadnezzar:
Yeah but then still people will make false names under those clannicks and f*** things up. So we are never safe.
[/QUOTE]
They still have to validate belonging to a clan through a clan admin pw just like you do now on the EA Servers for STW and ME. So it would be impossible for them to do this on the unofficial clan site...as I have it set up in my prototype.
[This message has been edited by ShadeHonestus (edited 08-20-2002).]
GAH!
If Vanya has a list of player nicks, can he query the database to get the battle history of the players?
If Vanya has a logfile, will there be a field in it that corresponds to the battle record in the database? That way, Vanya can tie his Guillotine to the web version if He wants...
GAH!
Vanya fondly remembers the incessant spamming of Llama Insane long, long ago. Vanya does not understand why you find such displays of absurdity offensive.
But, Vanya has no problem with limiting the number of nicks a user can get. As long as the number is GREATER than 3. 3 is Vanya's estimate for the number of mistakes typical mortals make that they will need to start over to recover from.
Using any means you can describe -- and any you have not yet conceived -- if there is a way to determine which person owns a list of nicks, it is no different than what Vanya, in His ultimate wisdom, described. Nobody should have the innate right to view anybody else's list of nicks. This simple opens the door for more virulent abuse than what y'all see now.
With that having been said, Vanya does not dispute the ignore feature y'all mention is not without merit. However, your implementation is.
Vanya recommends something more like: #ignoremaster [anynick]
Doing this will ignore any nick that user has. HOWEVER, those OTHER nicks will NEVER be revealed to any player other than its owner! Thus, you can never fully know that nickA and nickB are both playaX. But #ignoremaster nickA in essence ignores BOTH nickA and nickB, while you will never be informed, nor will any file or profile setting anywhere inform you, whether on your PC or gamespy -- that nickB is affected. It will just happen.
Vanya has spoken.
GAH!
Could you knock off the "GAH!" stuff? It doesn't add anything to what you're trying to say. I personally find it pretty irritating and entirely unnecessary.
ElmarkOFear
08-21-2002, 07:13
Satt: Most of us find VANYA himself irritating, but we love him still. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Think of his GAH!s as a segue into another thought and not the rantings of a madman!! LOL I picture him looking like a Sharpei puppy, ugly as hell to look at, but actually very cute and cuddly. HEHE
Everybody loves a headless horseman. And Vanya's our number one headless horseman!
err.. Gah! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
mizuYari
08-21-2002, 09:27
Let the record shows that MizuYari is in solidarity with Vanya and also comes to his defense. Punctuated by those GAH! (which is similar to your "ummm" and "uhhh") are intelligent talks.
Vanya and Krasturak without a GAH! would worth only 1/10th of the original ransom price!
MizuYari
Papewaio
08-21-2002, 11:33
So your hard drive crashes. You create your new HD and you cannot remember the exact matching of your nick and password as it was all stored on the hard drive.
What happens?
Do you call tech support /email them?
What would the reponse time be?
What will the response time be in two years (like when Gamespy is competing against TW3 new service provider like EA is doing now)?
Do you have to buy an extra CD because your younger brother kicks butt at MP and doesn't want his name dragged through the dirt when you use the same nickname?
----
Multiple nicks that are indexed against a ID number which is linked to the CD key --- that idea I like.
The idea to ignore based on ID number I also like.
Konnichiwa,
-More nicks -> more passwords -> easier to forget.
-Use a pen and write the pass on a paper and put it in the MTW 'jewelcase'.
Besides.... it says that one could signup a new nick. What's required for the new signup is only your CD-key (something which is already written in your jewelcase). Of course your old ranking is lost and worthless by then.
So, that's not changed with the current situation except that the extreme abuse is limited.
And again, each person has two ID sets, which can also be used for second chance and privacy. But only 1 of the ID sets allow comp and clantag.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Konnichiwa,
Ignore all nicks from 1 key:
-A is spamming, cursing and offending. I put him on ignore.
-A creates nick B and enters the foyer.
-How do I know whether he's a newbie who needs help with anything, even chatting, or the idiot A who I just ignored?
-T: 'Hello'.
-T: ..
-T: 'Hello B, how are you'?
-T: '..'
-T: 'You can click on my name, and use your keyboard to chat'.
-T: '..'
-T: 'Do you speak english'?
-T: '..'
-T: 'Want to play a game'?
-T: '..'
-T: '..'
-T: 'Hello?'
B to room: 'Can someone tell that fucking idiot to stop'?
In short: I don't like the ignore cd-key.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Azmogeddon
08-21-2002, 16:52
Potential solution to the multiple nicks problem, though not sure if it would be possible with in Gamespy (grr why do games keep using Gamespy! ASE (http://www.udpsoft.com/eye)!)...
Have an option where you can select someone and view all the registered Nicks on their CD key. Possible invasion of privacy problems, but since it's just within a game it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
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Azmo
[long-time lurker]
RageMonsta
08-21-2002, 17:07
No Clan grouping?
One of the only reasons alot of us are still here is the clan element...
One of our only defences against people who come on as
KenchiNumbNutz'/RageNoodleHead/WolfSmellFeet
etc is that we can say .'nooo look at our list, they aint one of us'.....so does this mean it is gone?
oh and because I as am too lazy too read anymore (and the Order's imps are away to do it for me)..what will the chat room look like?.....hope its the same as those mini chat areas with the green fonts and black background found on GameSpy etc are so stagnant....please keep the old style.
Konnichiwa,
Yet another question?
How does the idea of a second chance match ignoring all nicks of a certain CD-key?
The proposal allows:
-organising clanmembers in the chatfoyer (optional)
-allows changing clan without losing record, but by keeping the same name (by changing or deleting the tag).
-allows privacy and familymembers to play without the risk of damaging ones rank.
-The secondary nick/profile also allows those who need a real second chance to continue playing.
-allows to create a new nick for comps:
a.lost the passwords for the previous nick
b. having a very bad rank that 'can't' be restored.
c. getting bored with the current nick.
-The system prevents laddercheating, claninfiltration and any other abuse STW suffered from:
a. only 1 ranking of the primary nick/profile is active (only the one with the highest ID).
b. One can be in only 1 clan, as it's possible to track someone (not by seeing the complete history, but one either 'destroys' his past by creating a new nick (and also destroys his old active ranking). The only indication for the outside world that he has a past, is the increased ID, but there's no info about his the how/what of past. Or he just changes the clantag, by which he keeps his record but would openly admit that he's in another clan. Perhaps it should also be visible in the ID how many times the tag is changed, so MizuYaris ID is expanded to 3 parts.
c. One has only one active compnick at a time. So each Cd-key allows for only one ranking.
An observing reader may notice something.
In case that an ID is used, it could be used to allow indirect tracking of ones history, for example by recalling ones ID. That system could allow multiple active comp nicks, which is a bad thing ihmo as it still allows laddercheating.
The other thing would increase privacy and due to the restrictions already made (only say 10 nicks, changecounters and only 1 active profile) would also effectively decrease the current abuse. Don't list the first part of the ID. One has only limited chances to change, the counter would reveil that one's not the newbie he claims to be (by still trying this he just risks to 'destroy' one of his limited changes).
I like the latter more, it's flexible, protects the fair, allows second chances (9 even and 9 for the secondary as well, I'ld like Vanyas 3) and minimises the damage that idiots can do.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Toda Nebuchadnezzar
08-21-2002, 17:32
I agree with Azmogeddon. The idea of being able to bring up all the nicks on a certain CD-Key would help alot.
Also it would definately stop most of the abuse by people joining lots of clans at the same time.
------------------
Jaguara-Spoken like a TRUE SPAMMER Toda!
No Fear Legend.
Konnichiwa,
And check 1,000 nicks to discover someone?
All those nicks clog up the database of the server --> lag.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
ShadeHonestus
08-21-2002, 17:57
Searching 1000 would be a pain... but a database that large shouldn't cause lag. I imagine it will be written in SQL 2000/7 or the likes. I wrote a database that holds every highschool in the U.S. and their athletes, stats, bios, conferences, with 8 different sports. Pretty quick. As long as the search feature is built outside of the chat environment.
Konnichiwa,
I mean that 1 person could have 1,000 nicks.
The many comp nicks would also allow laddercheating.
The idea of the second chance is impossible with this system.
------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
ShadeHonestus
08-21-2002, 18:55
oohhhh,
I see. That would be a huge pain. If this is true then I guess the only way to create a worthwhile ladder system with any integrity is by doing it ourselves. Of course this hinges on the ability to access. I wish Gil would drop a line one way or the other...
Konnichiwa ShadeHonestus san,
Not only an integer ladder, the integrity of the entire community is swamped as well (because a few spoil the fun for the majority).
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
GAH!
The beauty of the college football postseason is that all the top teams walk away claiming to be number 1.
GAH!
If each clan holds its own little ladder, with a few select names, you get the same phenomenon. Many ladders. Many number 1s. No real concensus as to who a real number 1 is. That keeps the pressure alive. It livens the drama.
[Mongol]: GAH! My Great Khan, Khan of Khans, Lord of the Can-Can is the top ranked player in the Grey Wolves Ladder! GAH!
[Pig]: Oh yeah? Well he never played over here! Our ladder says Llama Insane is number 1! Take that! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! GAH!
[Mongol]: GAH! I shall take your head and offer it to my Great Khan, Khan of Khans, Lord of the Can-Can as tribute!
[Pig]: GAH! Come on then! Bring it on!
[Mongol]: Join our ladder.
[Pig]: Join mine!
[Mongol]: Our rules are fair.
[Pig]: Our rules allow Pigs to defend river and castle maps! Ours our fair and balanced for our newbie members!
[Mongol]: GAH! LOSER! GAH!
[Pig]: What! You chicken???
[Mongol]: Fine. I will join your stupid ladder.
[The Mongol joins the ladder and challenges Pig. True to form, Pig chooses to defend a river province with a gun fortress in it. Pig taunts the Mongol. But the Mongol eventually shoves that culverin up Pig's arse, and follow it with a ripe pineapple.]
[Mongol]: Gosh, you suck!
[Pig]: You cheated!
[Mongol]: No, you just suck. And you escaped at the end. That is why the pineapple...
[Pig]: [Rubs arse] GAH!
[Mongol]: You have been shown the path. What you do now is up to you...
[Pig]: GAH! You only played 1 game... I have played hundreds... on our ladder.
[Mongol]: May Vanya have mercy upon your soul...
GAH!
ShadeHonestus
08-21-2002, 20:44
yeah, but in college football there aren't multiple aliases.
Michigan also known as Temple, Duke, and for our purposes here...Lousiana A&M is playing Miami also known as Miami of Ohio, BYU, and for our purposes here...Oregon.
Both team belong to the Big Ten, Pac Ten, ACC, SEC and the Northwestern Association of Community Colleges.
Michigan also known as Temple, Duke, and for our purposes here...Lousiana A&M comes in today with a total of 430 points this season, 9000 if you are keeping score in Canada, 2 if you are keeping track in Haiti and depending on their name today please understand there is a + - margin of 800 points.
ummmmm no.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by ShadeHonestus (edited 08-21-2002).]
MagyarKhans Cham
08-21-2002, 21:19
Lord of the Can Can, that will please my Khan....
GALLOP GALLOP GALLLOP GALLLLOOOPPPPpppp...
KafirChobee
08-21-2002, 22:44
If Medal of Honor is the example for selecting and playing games on MTW - F..it. GaySpy sucks. There is no community. Advantage goes to the fastest connection, and the numerous other flaws out weigh the inventiveness of the games itself. 6000 players, 1500 - 2000 games to choose from and no continuity. Geeesh, for me, part of the enjoyment in play STW was the foyer. This is change for the purpose of change? Oh well, nothing remains the same does it. Then again, I well imagine that those who are still loyal to STW will find a way to overcome GagSpy to maintain the clan communities and friendships that exist there. Cya there - maybe?
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Quote Only two things are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity. And, I am not sure about the Universe. Albert Einstein [/QUOTE]
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