How to deal with sallies...

[_Tristan_]

I've tested and found a good way of fighting sally battles when defending (ie being the besieger)...

There are two variants of the same which I have named the Withdrawal Feint and the Plaza Rush...

In order to pull those through, you'll need to have at least a fast horse unit and preferably some missile units (or some more horse units) and preferably facing a garrison of infantry/missile units as lots of cav would disrupt the tactics (unless you have even more than the garrison).

The Withdrawal Feint :

1 - Drop all siege equipment.
2 - Withdraw all troops except the fast cav unit(s) and send them to the end of an imaginary battle line.
3 - Keep your other cav units a little behind your other troops
4 - When a little more than halfway to the map limit, stop and turn around your missile and inf units (by then the garrison should have completely come out and even started to pursue)
5 - As the garrison advances, it starts to form in lines of cav/inf/missile (sometimes sending cav to counter those cav you sent to the end of the line), use this to send you fast cav into the missile units disrupting and killing them (after having lost the enemy cav by doing a little loop some distance away)
6 - Have your missile units on "Fire at will" and wait for the enemy line to reach you, sending your cav to counter the garrison cav or to weak spots in the enemy
7 - Use your fast cav to chase any routers from the main enemy line and to charge in the back of units (rinse and repeat)
8 - The town should soon be yours.

The other tactic is a variant on the first one :

The Plaza Rush

1 to 3 - Exactly as before.
4 - Withdraw just enough to have the enemy advance on you and get away from the gates and
5 - Send the fast cav to the sides and if possible use some Mailed Knights also (A bodyguard could do the trick if a bit slow).
6 - Use the fast cav to kill missile units and use one or more to rush to the Plaza (hence the name:2thumbsup: ). Mailed knights are especially good for that part as they are quite fast and have some staying power, Vards might also do the trick but I've never plyed the Byz so I wouldn't know...:embarassed:
7 - Time it so that the enemy front line gets into firing range of your missile units.
8 - If timed just right, the enemy will turn around and try to get to the plaza, getting struck by arrows all the way to the gates.
9 - Send some heavy cav into their backs and use the unit(s) on the plaza to kill any routers trying to rally by reaching it
10 - Strike one for the besieger...

I've found that tactic to work mainly in the western theatre where I play mostly (French, Hungary, Danes) against other western factions.

Any and all observations are welcome...

[FactionHeir]

Pretty much the usual tactics I agree.

Although I would modify 1 to withdraw your troops to the nearest high ground or just fairly close to the map edge.
That way, the enemy will use its cav alone to charge at you which you can disrupt using your own cav and eventually surround with infantry. By the time their cav routs, their infantry line won't even be close and instead of pursuing the routers, you can charge straight into their line, break it and chase down routers. When necessary, withdraw cav to your main line and have the slowly exhausting enemy walk up to it, where it can get held and possibly flanked.

2 is usually better if you are greatly outnumbered or have the lower quality units. Problem is holding the plaza for the full 3 minutes, as the enemy usually manages to get to you in that time. Also, the gate does not always stay open in the sallies by the AI but only some of the time.
Next to that, as soon as you held the plaza even for a little while, the AI will often switch to "i am under siege" mode and refuse to come out again or attack you outside the plaza.
In that case, you can usually wait them out and let the timer expire.
2 also works if you got a ladder somewhere and its not a fortress+ you are sieging. What I did once was have a ladder infantry run to the other side of town while withdrawing the rest of my force. The enemy mostly ignored the lone runners and focussed on my main, allowing me to latch on ladders, which turned the enemy into "i am under siege" mode too.
This you can use as a safe card, where you are uncertain of the outcome (i.e. your troops are somewhat inferior)

[Guru]

Hello there! I got some cheesy tactics for you!
The Infantry Jog
Works well when the enemy has an infantry-only garrison. The size of the garrison doesnt really matter, a huge enemy army just makes things more interesting. All you need is two cavalry units, preferably a general and some junk unit like hobilars. Some might call this an "exploit" but of course, it's a "feature".
Well, here it goes:
Battle starts. Send the "junk cavalry" away from the settlement and hide them in woods if you like and it's possible. The whole garrison should go after your general's unit. Lure the whole enemy army to the farthest corner of the map and meanwhile send your junk riders through the gates (which the enemy left open for you) to the plaza. The enemy army should turn around and head for the plaza. If they don't make it in 3 minutes...:ahh: You can also pursue them with your general's unit which they pursued some seconds ago. ~D You can get hundreds of kills and loads of chevrons for one unit and no losses at all. This takes some time but you can speed up the game cant you? There are some rebel provinces that are easy to take this way. Inverness, Wales, Helsinki etc. Any enemy cavalry will give you trouble although general's boduguard can handle things pretty nicely.

- Guru

[_Tristan_]

Thx for the answer FactionHeir

As stated, I use the Plaza Rush essentially when I'm outnumbered or with low-grade units (which is most of the times).

After different tries, I find that stopping 3/4 of the way to the map edge is the best turn around position IMHO.

One of the funniest thing I've done using those tactics happened fighting rebels as the Danes with the Long Road mod.

I was outnumbered and had waited until the last turn of the siege to see the rebels sallying out.

I sent my fast cav to kill enemy missile but forgot to stop the withdrawal move of the rest of my army (:oops: ) which ended with a 17-man viking raider, a 32-man town militia and a general BG of 10 men (plus two Danish scouts 20 and 14 strong) going against 1 Bodyguard, 1 mailed Knight, 2 spear- & 3 town-militia and 3 Xbows, so 89 men against 525.

My scouts took on two of the Xbows and left only 10-20 men in each unit and maimed half the remaining Xbow unit.

Then they led the enemy infantry and mailed knights on a merry chase around the town taking turns charging the remaining Xbows and town militia and getting good results. At that time I figured I could not win and was trying to obtain a draw (which would have given me the town, it being the last turn of the siege, not very fair but war is war...:shame: )

In the mean time, I tried to rush the plaza with my remaining units only to have the enemy general charge on my raiders. My luck changed when I timed my own BG charge exactly in order ot disrupt the enemy's charge just before it impacted on the Viking. The enemy BG was then struck by the full might of the Viking wrath with the help of the militia.

The enemy general was killed in the fray and 4 of his men ran away to be cut down on reaching the gates by the scouts on the "chase around town" trick.

I resumed my move on the plaza and the AI sent its Mailed Knights to the same fate as its general with more casualties on my side this time (not so good a timing, MK being faster than BG)

After that, my scouts took on the "shaken" spear militia routing them on impact one at a time and chasing the routers thus getting me a heroic victory where I was looking for a draw...

It was one of my nicest surprises playing MTW and a proof that this was a sound tactic (although i've had a bit of luck)...

[_Tristan_]

The Infantry Jog


I've use a variant I call the "Merry-Go-round" as stated in the post right after yours...

All of it is a laugh :laugh4:

[MStumm]

I found balistas to be very effective in a sally. Have them shoot at the closely packed troops coming out of the gate. You kill so many with one arrow its not even funny. The survivors tend to rout very quickly.

[andrewt]

I prefer the charge. I just surround the units as they are exiting the gates. I then order my missiles to fire at the clump if units they have.

[imnothere]

i am turtle player. here are my (cheesy) tactics.

1. Enemy has superior numbers / lots of chivalric knights.

The Siege Line

R = Ram

I = Infantry (spears/pikes)

HI = Heavy Infantry (swords/Halberds)

A = Archers

H = Mounted Units

G = General




R R R R R R R
I I I I I I

A HI HI A
A A
A A
M M
M G M
M M

Rams which was created turns ago will break up even the most determine frontal sallies by the defenders. AI will usually assault only the units at the leftmost or rightmost line, mostly in piecemeals. So therefore even the most
inept units can defend themselves.

At the mean time, AI mounted units will make a beeline for either left or right archers line. You might take casualties from archers not been able withdraw in time but its ok. If it is mounted units, your own horsed units should be able to charge the enemy from front while the reserve heavy infantry hit them from the side.

If it is spear/pikes that are attacking, then heavy infantry will take them from front while the left/right-most units from the line that are free can take them from the back. The general can help out as he sees fit (or her, if its the pope)

This tactic can be modify for any type of army, unless one principally composed of 100% mounted units or archers. But work best mainly with infantry. 100% infantry will also be fine, as you are force them to come to you.

The general idea is to force AI to fight either in a unfavourable frontal assault in piecemeals or expose their sides to your attacks.

2. The bum rush

A. You feel lucky.
B. You are not in mood for any subtle woosy tactic.
C. You want to kill someone.
D. You couldn't care less if a few levies/peasants/grunts die from defending archers units on wall/towers
E. All of the above

Charge with everything (spears only, and units that you want to be rid of) into the gate. the AI units would have rushed his archer first, and these will be the first to die. Then his cavalry and general, and then finally all the rest of the grunts. AI Archers would be panicking and trying to withdraw, the AI cavalry trying to charge, and the spearwall units by now would not have any coherency. Do leave your general unit in range to rally any fleeing units and charge when everything is pretty much finished. I'd avoid into melee, since i think my general has magnetism - to spears, at the dying minutes of the battle. *sigh*

[Ramses II CP]

Rush the gates is absolutely the right idea. When the enemy attacks your city and manages to break your gate you form a pocket inside it. When the enemy think you're attacking with a weak force and sallies against it, form a pocket outside the gate.

Cavalry should rush to the walls as fast as possible, far enough from the gate that they have room to charge. Fast infantry follows them. Spears should form a line just far enough back from the gate that the enemy doesn't automatically engage, but not far enough that they can effectively charge. In the middle of the spear line leave a gap where the actual gate is; your artillery and crossbowmen can form a narrow front formation and fire into this gap murderously. Heavy infantry will be the last to arrive, use them as a reserve to bolster any area where your line gets thin.

Once the enemy has filled your pocket, hopefully enough that the towers stop shooting, advance the spears to engagement range. As soon as you see the edges turn towards your spearmen, charge the cavalry along the walls. If you have archers, put fire arrows into the mass at the same time by clicking one of the units near the gate. The timing can be tricky as things move quickly in a sally, especially if the enemy is sallying with a significant force of horse archers or Jinettes, but you can easily contain and rout armies three times as large as your own.

Against rebels the simultaneous charges will cause a rout almost immediately. If an AI faction has a general in the city you might have to fight for a awhile and sink in some more fire arrows. If the enemy starts pouring out the gap in your spear line that can actually be a good thing as those men will be an excellent target to start the rout. Hit them with a charge from anything, even archers or crossbowmen, and they'll likely break.

:egypt:

[_Tristan_]

To the gate rushers, I'd like to point that the tactics I pointed out earlier were intended to minimize losses as having practically almost no engagement...

Having sieged for X turns, I can't bear to lose men that had been unused for that many turns in a gate rush

[Ramses II CP]

Ahh, makes sense. I was referring more to the deliberately provoked sallies, when you send an army you know they'll sally against to catch the city quickly. I've gotten into the mindset of expecting casualties in siege battles because I don't like to wait them out.

:egypt: