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Ice
08-28-2007, 00:27
A decent length, but a great read.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118817255017309334.html?mod=loomia&loomia_si=1


CASHING OUT
Venezuelans Chase Dollars
Amid Worries Over Economy
Some See Ways to Profit
From Chávez's Controls;
A Poker-Chip Maneuver
By JOHN LYONS
August 27, 2007; Page A1

CARACAS, Venezuela—Like many people they know in Caracas these days, Alfred and Norma Muñoz are bracing for what they believe is inevitable: a currency crash brought about by President Hugo Chávez's policies.

The middle-class couple plan to borrow as much as they can from a local bank and buy an apartment outside the country. If Venezuela's bolívar plunges against the dollar, they figure, the loan will be cheap to pay off in dollar terms, and the overseas apartment will hold its dollar value. "Plus, it gives you somewhere to flee if things really get bad," says Mr. Muñoz, who runs a small business.

At the moment, with oil at near record prices, Venezuela's economy is booming. The fourth-largest oil exporter to the U.S. has averaged 12.6% annual growth since 2004 -- the fastest in Latin America. Three-month waits to buy new cars are standard at Caracas dealerships amid a boom in consumer financing. Unemployment has fallen to single-digit rates for the first time in more than a decade.

But there are signs of trouble. Oil production is falling as the state oil company loses top managers and invests less. Inflation is running at 19%, according to the Venezuelan government, though many private economists say the rate is more like 25%, given the increasing role of a black market in hard-to-obtain goods. Partly as a result, the bolívar, officially fixed at 2,150 per dollar, has lost more than half its value on the black market. Many locals fear that official devaluation and runaway inflation is inevitable.

The global credit squeeze caused by mortgage problems in the U.S. may give Venezuelans new reasons to worry. That's because oil prices could fall if, as some economists fear, a world slowdown in lending leads to a broad economic slump. Declining oil prices would deprive Mr. Chávez of income for his vast social programs and accelerate pressure on the bolívar.

Exasperated Voters

In decades past, currency declines and hyperinflation have reared up across Latin America, destabilizing governments and spreading misery among ordinary people. Indeed, Mr. Chávez's own rise to power was helped by a financial collapse and soaring inflation under the mid-1990s government of Rafael Caldera, which prompted exasperated voters to back Mr. Chávez in a 1998 election. If such problems emerge again in Venezuela, they could erode Mr. Chávez's popularity at home, as well as curtail his influence in the region by forcing him to cut back on foreign aid.

While the bolívar is weakening, many other oil nations are watching their currencies get stronger. The explanation for the discrepancy lies, at least in part, in Mr. Chávez's economic policies. His attempt to manage the economy for the benefit of the poor has produced unforeseen problems, which he has treated with unorthodox solutions that in turn have created new problems. With each policy turn, people like the Muñozes have become more convinced things will spin out of control.
[Hugo Chavez]

Since 2003, Mr. Chávez has more than doubled government spending on free medical care, higher salaries, gasoline subsidies and other services. That created more demand for goods and services, which fueled inflation. In response, Mr. Chávez expanded price controls, which now cover meat, sugar, eggs, milk and other products. That led to food shortages as producers balked at selling their goods at the mandated prices. The shortages produced a black market, where prices have soared.

This mixture of food shortages, black markets and rising inflation is déjà vu for the Venezuelans who have lived through three financial meltdowns since the 1980s. In the most recent, a collapse of a big bank helped bring on a currency crash and inflation that topped 100% in 1996. To protect themselves from a repeat, Venezuelans are trying to get their hands on dollars, further weakening the bolívar.

"We all know what is coming, we just don't know when," says David Macedo, who drives a delivery truck that supplies small grocery stores. When he has a few bolívars saved, he says, he often goes to the Caracas airport to buy dollars from arriving tourists. He pays far more than the official rate of 2,150 bolívars per dollar, but less than the black-market rate, now about 4,800.

Wealthier Venezuelans have discovered they can use credit cards to exploit the difference between official and black-market currency rates. Some have flown to the nearby island of Aruba and bought $5,000 worth of gambling chips, the maximum overseas credit purchase allowed by the Venezuelan government, according to a person who arranges the trips. They cash in the chips for dollars, then, back at home, buy enough bolívars on the black market to pay off the credit-card debt, this person says. They pocket the rest -- around $2,300 at current rates, more than enough to pay for the trip.
[chart]

Once locals start expecting a crisis, it becomes harder for the government to avoid one. If shopkeepers expect inflation-fighting policies to fail, they will try to raise prices no matter what the government does. Such a phenomenon was recently seen in Argentina: In 2001, Argentines who lost confidence in their government's ability to avoid debt default began withdrawing their bank deposits en masse, ultimately speeding the economic collapse and currency crash they feared.

In Venezuela, Mr. Chávez came to power promising to use the country's oil wealth to benefit the poor. His economic problems started after a 2002 coup attempt and an oil workers' strike. The ensuing economic turmoil prompted many Venezuelans to take money out of the country, which threatened to bring down the banking system. Mr. Chávez stopped the capital flight by banning overseas money transfers and dollar purchases.

When oil prices rose, Mr. Chávez sharply increased spending, which helped him win crucial votes in 2004 and 2006. But the capital controls trapped new spending inside Venezuela, more than quadrupling the amount of bolívars in circulation. The bloated money supply undermined the bolívar and fueled inflation.

The Chávez government realizes the dangers and vows to tamp down inflation before it gets out of control. In July, it required banks to pay customers higher interest on deposits, in hopes of making the bolívar more attractive and encouraging savings. But the new rate is only about half the inflation rate. Finance Minister Rodrigo Cabezas says the government will moderate spending for the first time in years and will keep the official exchange rate unchanged at least through 2009. "We have no plans for devaluation," he says.

Few economists who follow Venezuela are forecasting deep financial trouble, at least while oil prices remain high. Latin American economies generally run aground when they can't afford to pay their bills for imports and debt service. Venezuela currently does not face this problem.

But the longer-term prognosis is far from clear. Mark Weisbrot, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, a Washington think tank, who is generally supportive of Mr. Chávez, says the government has time to boost economic growth by investing in industries outside the oil sector. Other economists are more skeptical. They contend that the government isn't making enough long-term investments, such as building factories, and that it remains far too dependent on oil revenue.

"We don't know when a crash will happen," says Alberto Ramos, a senior Latin America economist at Goldman Sachs. "But Chávez is driving down the wrong side of the road."
[chart]

Many Venezuelans are preparing for the worst. Mr. Chávez's control of the legislature, courts and military means it's unlikely the government will alter its current economic course. In mid-August, Mr. Chávez proposed constitutional reforms that would end the autonomy of the country's central bank and eliminate presidential term limits, a move critics say is his bid to become president for life. At the extreme, concerns about the future have prompted thousands of better-off Venezuelans to leave the country in recent years for Miami and such oil centers as Houston and Alberta, Canada.

Next year, Mr. Chávez plans to relaunch the bolívar, minus three zeros and with a new name: the "strong bolívar." The plan includes the reintroduction of a 12.5 centavo coin, la locha, a historical throwback to the days of the South American military leader Simón Bolívar, Mr. Chávez's hero. For months, the government insisted that the currency "reconversion" would solve many of the country's ills, such as inflation. The plan was widely disparaged, and in July, a senior Chávez official acknowledged that it "will have no primary effect on the inflation phenomenon."

While inflation always hurts the poor by eating into their purchasing power, some of Mr. Chávez's policies to curtail it are helping bankers, securities brokers and other wealthy Venezuelans. With capital controls limiting the amount of bolívars that can be transferred abroad, bank deposits have risen sevenfold since 2002. Financial firms have done a brisk business helping Venezuelans get their money out of the country legally through debt swaps. Using bolívars, the customer buys a Venezuelan security that trades on a foreign exchange, then sells that security, taking payment in dollar-denominated debt such as Treasurys. The payment gets deposited in an offshore account.

A Chávez plan to bolster Venezuela's currency by selling dollar-denominated government bonds has largely backfired. The government figured that asking Venezuelans to buy the bonds with bolívars would take the currency out of circulation, boosting its value. Shrewd buyers realized they could get the dollar bonds from the government at the official exchange rate, then resell them on the official Caracas exchange, where the bonds trade at prices much closer to the currency's higher black-market rate.

The government tried to give small investors first dibs on the bonds by saying that orders by private individuals for less than $3,000 would be filled first. Brokerage firms paid maids, doormen and laborers about $50 each to sign over their rights to the bonds, says Pedro Torres, a middleman who is paid by brokerages to find working-class Venezuelans willing to turn over their rights to the bonds. He says he signed up 170 for the last bond sale, earlier this year.

Black-Market Rates

Savvy Venezuelans have also used the dollar bonds to speculate against the bolívar. Purchasing bonds with loans from local banks, they sold enough at black-market rates to pay off the loans, pocketing the difference. By exploiting the gap between the central bank's rate and the market rate, investors have in effect taken free dollars at the expense of Venezuelan reserves.

The downward pressure on the currency doesn't end there. Because the Chávez administration's bank regulations have kept loans cheap, Venezuelans have an incentive to borrow not only to buy bonds but other goods as well. They take out loans to buy big-ticket items, such as dishwashers or expensive watches, that will keep their value. These loans, too, pump new cash into circulation, counteracting the government's anti-inflationary goal.

"Chávez is the first president to publicize, organize and incite a run on his own currency," said Alejandro Grisanti, an economist who opposes Mr. Chávez. He estimates that at least two-thirds of the government's last dollar-bond issue was bought on credit, including the ones he bought for himself. Venezuela's Finance Ministry declined a request for comment.

At a crowded Fiat dealership in Caracas's posh Las Mercedes neighborhood, would-be buyers add their names to three-month waiting lists. They are so eager to purchase they don't care what model or color they get, as long as they get it soon, says sales manager Beatríz Machado. Some used Fiats sell for more than new ones because they are available on the spot, she says.

Champagne and Whiskey

"They don't want a car. They want a place to put their money," says Ms. Machado, who wears a red blouse and earrings to show her support for Mr. Chávez, whom she credits with helping the poor. She, too, has doubts about the economy, and says she spends her bolívars quickly. Using a bolívar loan, she bought an apartment and a car. Recently, she says, she loaded up on imported champagne and whiskey.

The biggest losers may be the poor, many of whom are Mr. Chávez's supporters. Antonio Buitrago, a 57-year-old cab driver, credits Mr. Chávez with helping his son to walk again. Last year, after the young man was badly injured in a car crash, the government paid for medical treatment, including a rehabilitation trip to Cuba. "I trust Chávez is going to take care of me," Mr. Buitrago says.

But Mr. Buitrago says his life is getting more difficult these days. He is among what a local pollster estimates are the 45% of Venezuelans who've had trouble finding milk and chicken this year. He can't afford black-market prices for scarce goods, so he stands in long lines at markets that sell subsidized foods. He deposits his savings in a bank, where it's being eaten away by inflation, saying buying dollars on the black market would be unpatriotic.

At a recent "Expo Crédito" in Caracas, lines curled around the conference hall. Upper-middle-class Caracas residents waited alongside men in army and fire-rescue uniforms to sign up for credit cards. The conference slogan: "Credit for Everything."

Denis Naranjo, an engineer, said he's considering his options. He wants to take out a loan, but isn't sure whether to buy real estate or cars. What he really needs, he says, is a bank account in the U.S. "In Venezuela, things are always changing," he explains. "You need to have a plan, and you need to be flexible.

Go figure massive government spending and price controls are hurting the economy in Venezuela:clown: . I wouldn't have guessed.

Xiahou
08-28-2007, 03:50
Go figure massive government spending and price controls are hurting the economy in Venezuela:clown: . I wouldn't have guessed.
And it's going to be the poor that he's supposedly doing all of this for that are going to take it on the chin when the wheels come off.

Interesting read. :bow:

HoreTore
08-28-2007, 14:33
Go figure massive government spending and price controls are hurting the economy in Venezuela:clown: . I wouldn't have guessed.

Hmm...isn't the exact opposite of that hurting economies where it's present?

Don't think I would've guessed that either...

Ice
08-28-2007, 15:23
Hmm...isn't the exact opposite of that hurting economies where it's present?

Don't think I would've guessed that either...

What? Did you bother to read any of the article?

HoreTore
08-28-2007, 15:43
What? Did you bother to read any of the article?

Yes?

Ice
08-28-2007, 16:02
Yes?

Then, how did you miss the part about price controls creating a shortage of vital goods while creating a black a market and double government spending over expanding Venezuela's resources?

HoreTore
08-28-2007, 16:35
Then, how did you miss the part about price controls creating a shortage of vital goods while creating a black a market and double government spending over expanding Venezuela's resources?

Hmm, let's see...I didn't?

Scurvy
08-28-2007, 16:53
this bit?



Since 2003, Mr. Chávez has more than doubled government spending on free medical care, higher salaries, gasoline subsidies and other services. That created more demand for goods and services, which fueled inflation. In response, Mr. Chávez expanded price controls, which now cover meat, sugar, eggs, milk and other products. That led to food shortages as producers balked at selling their goods at the mandated prices. The shortages produced a black market, where prices have soared.


The artcle is fairer than most, it does Chavez the justice of pointing out that the Venezuelan economy is actually doing quite well (despite government spending and price controls... :idea2: )

:2thumbsup:

HoreTore
08-28-2007, 17:27
Since 2003, Mr. Chávez has more than doubled government spending on free medical care, higher salaries, gasoline subsidies and other services.

Except the gas subsidies, everything on that small check-list is mandatory for a good country.

The fault IMO is not the price control, but what they controlled. If you put it on food, black markets will soar. However, how can you create a black market for electricity, for example? A fixed cheap price on electricity will do wonder for the industry, especially when you raise wages...

The Wizard
08-28-2007, 17:34
It's old news; the people we rented our house from when we lived on Aruba (until 1998) were from Venezuela and staunchly anti-Chavez. For that (and for partaking in an anti-Chavez march) they were beaten and hounded by Chavez's supporters, and fled the country to go and live in a house for four with a family of six or more. That's the political reality in the so-called "democracy" of Chavezian Venezuela.

I don't think this whole lending/mortgage business is gonna lead to a Venezuelan slump, or even a crash. That's because I don't think that's gonna happen anywhere. If it even has major effects they'll be meted out in a just as slow way as the entire process leading up to the "crisis" until now.

Seamus Fermanagh
08-28-2007, 17:36
The point of the piece is not that Chavez is doing short term harm -- he's not. It would be hard to argue that medical care for the poor, for example, is a bad thing.

The problem is awaiting Venezuela somewhere in the future. By using government oil money to subsidize gasoline and prop up salaries, and by NOT insuring in oil-industry efficiency improvements or allowing a largely free market to set prices, Chavez is creating a recipe for devaluation and hyper-inflation. This could well cripple the economy in the future.

As I've mentioned in other threads, the only real value in the government controlling oil profits is if those profits are plowed into infrastructure -- not into band-aids on existing problems.

Good roads. Strong bridges. Well-equipped hospitals. Education. Health Care. Vaccinations. Oil Industry improvements in efficiency/profitability. Incentives for foreign investment (tethered to hiring locals/underwriting education for same). These cannot help but make Venezuela better in the long run. Chavez is doing some of these, to be sure, but too much of the oil largesse is being frittered on things that are more "consumable" in nature.

I'm sure there are economic inequities in Venez. There are in most places. The failure of Socialism is its belief that such economic strata can be erased. Capitalism, despite its faults, has a demonstrated ability to raise the entirety of the economic condition. Inequality still exists, but all are better off than their ancestors were. So far, a moderately regulated capitalism (few to no "trusts" or monopolies; clear air/water regulations; minimize fraud and graft) is the best humanity has come up with.

HoreTore
08-28-2007, 17:45
and by NOT insuring in oil-industry efficiency improvements

So, what other reason did he have for setting up a meeting with a bunch our oil-dudes? And why have our government stated that we are looking to export our state-of-the-art oil technology to him...?

JR-
08-28-2007, 18:43
hmmm, i wonder who will generate the wealth that will pay for these social programs once the majority of Venezuela's middle class has emigrated and the oil money gone?

sounds like a recipe for future poverty.

HoreTore
08-28-2007, 19:06
hmmm, i wonder who will generate the wealth that will pay for these social programs once the majority of Venezuela's middle class has emigrated and the oil money gone?

sounds like a recipe for future poverty.

You do know that a state is able to fund and build industry, right?

The Wizard
08-28-2007, 20:02
Only on the short term.

Tribesman
08-28-2007, 20:24
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: what a funny article :laugh4::laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: a very interesting read indeed .
Thanks Ice:2thumbsup:


It's old news; the people we rented our house from when we lived on Aruba (until 1998) were from Venezuela and staunchly anti-Chavez. For that (and for partaking in an anti-Chavez march) they were beaten and hounded by Chavez's supporters, and fled the country to go and live in a house for four with a family of six or more. That's the political reality in the so-called "democracy" of Chavezian Venezuela.

Now that is strange , if you lived there until 1998 and the presidential election wasn't held until that december then how long before Chavez was elected president had these people fled ?
Are you sure they hadn't fled the previous government when the police were killing people for protesting about food shortages and the abolition of constitutional rule ?:inquisitive:


Except the gas subsidies, everything on that small check-list is mandatory for a good country.

Nope , leaving aside that the government cut not increased the gasoline subsidies that already existed (apart from those for public transport but excluding taxis) the thing that needs to be altered on that small check list is higher salaries , higher salaries have to be sustainable .

But this is a classic
Then, how did you miss the part about price controls creating a shortage of vital goods while creating a black a market :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
So now Ice , could you explain what the goods are , where and why there is a shortage , and what exactly is the black market in those goods ?:yes:

Seamus Fermanagh
08-28-2007, 21:02
So, what other reason did he have for setting up a meeting with a bunch our oil-dudes? And why have our government stated that we are looking to export our state-of-the-art oil technology to him...?

These would be good moves by Venez.

Ice
08-28-2007, 22:55
:
But this is a classic:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
So now Ice , could you explain what the goods are , where and why there is a shortage , and what exactly is the black market in those goods ?:yes:

I'm glad you are still posting in your typical 4 year old pattern Tribesman.

From the article:


In response, Mr. Chávez expanded price controls, which now cover meat, sugar, eggs, milk and other products. That led to food shortages as producers balked at selling their goods at the mandated prices. The shortages produced a black market, where prices have soared.

There you go.

Ice
08-28-2007, 22:56
Hmm, let's see...I didn't?

Hmm, let's see, how is that opposite of hurting an economy?

Tribesman
08-28-2007, 23:20
I'm glad you are still posting in your typical 4 year old pattern Tribesman.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Well since a 4 year old could probably write a better article than that at the start of the topic its very apt isn't it
:dizzy2:

There you go Ice , now read the question again .....So now Ice , could you explain what the goods are , where and why there is a shortage , and what exactly is the black market in those goods ?.... and answer the question if you can instead of repeating that tripe in the WSJ , if you cannot answer the question then either find out before you make another pointless comment on it or desist from pointless comments on the subject .

Xiahou
08-28-2007, 23:21
The point of the piece is not that Chavez is doing short term harm -- he's not.
Actually, it sounds like there is plenty of short-term damage. It's just that it's been kept more or less in check by the oil dollars that Chavez keeps throwing at the problem. Things will get really ugly when their production fades or if prices drop significantly.

Ice
08-28-2007, 23:38
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Well since a 4 year old could probably write a better article than that at the start of the topic its very apt isn't it
:dizzy2:

There you go Ice , now read the question again .....So now Ice , could you explain what the goods are , where and why there is a shortage , and what exactly is the black market in those goods ?.... and answer the question if you can instead of repeating that tripe in the WSJ , if you cannot answer the question then either find out before you make another pointless comment on it or desist from pointless comments on the subject .

Now the WSJ in tripe? I'd like you to do better.

Like I said in other threads, if you have info to share, share it.

I'm not jumping through hoops for you, troll.

Tribesman
08-28-2007, 23:38
Actually, it sounds like there is plenty of short-term damage. It's just that it's been kept more or less in check by the oil dollars that Chavez keeps throwing at the problem.
You mean he is balancing the books by utilising a productive asset , what a strange thing to do .


Things will get really ugly when their production fades or if prices drop significantly.
Production fades ? how much proven reserves does Venezuela have ?
They cut production didn't they , was it you who was critical of the governments move when they announced it ?
Prices drop significantly ??????? given the state of the middle-east , Nigerias growing instability and Chinas thirst for more and more when can you see a significant price drop .
China did do a big deal for future supplies with Venezuela didn't they , investing huge amounts of money in it are they not . A huge investment that covers roads , pipelines , refineries and ports isn't it .
So would that be a huge investment in infrastucture then ?

Tribesman
08-28-2007, 23:48
I'm not jumping through hoops for you

It is a simple qestion I asked is it not , if answering the question is beyond your ability then....well ......what can I say that a dozen smilies couldn't say better:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Crazed Rabbit
08-29-2007, 00:22
He answered it fine, tribesy. He's provided evidence. You? You're just on one of your 'reality is what I say it is!' binges.

Or is actually thinking and comprehending and responding to something with actual data beyond your ability? :yes: :laugh4:

CR

Tribesman
08-29-2007, 01:34
Another example of you being unable to comprehend then Rabbit ?:dizzy2:

He didn't answer he repeated this...."In response, Mr. Chávez expanded price controls, which now cover meat, sugar, eggs, milk and other products. That led to food shortages as producers balked at selling their goods at the mandated prices. The shortages produced a black market, where prices have soared." ....that doesn't answer the question at all , it is in fact that statement which raised my question in the first place .
Much like how your "rebuttal" posted in the recent topic didn't go anywhere near the issue you somehow claimed it answered .

If you are having diffuiculty understanding then look at the words used , they are simple words .

Ice
08-29-2007, 02:54
Another example of you being unable to comprehend then Rabbit ?:dizzy2:

He didn't answer he repeated this...."In response, Mr. Chávez expanded price controls, which now cover meat, sugar, eggs, milk and other products. That led to food shortages as producers balked at selling their goods at the mandated prices. The shortages produced a black market, where prices have soared." ....that doesn't answer the question at all , it is in fact that statement which raised my question in the first place .
Much like how your "rebuttal" posted in the recent topic didn't go anywhere near the issue you somehow claimed it answered .

If you are having diffuiculty understanding then look at the words used , they are simple words .

That's because I don't take you seriously, Tribesman. Any other person I would have probably answered.

Soulforged
08-29-2007, 03:26
That's because I don't take you seriously, Tribesman. Any other person I would have probably answered.
Can I do the same question under my name then?...:inquisitive:

Xiahou
08-29-2007, 03:35
Can I do the same question under my name then?...:inquisitive:
Sure, just ask it in an intelligible way. Seriously, I don't understand what the hell his point was... and it's certainly not worth bothering to ask him to clarify. :no:

Ice
08-29-2007, 03:35
Can I do the same question under my name then?...:inquisitive:

Sure. Ask it in a manner without all the ":laugh4:" and in a manner that I can actually understand and I'll try to the best of my knowledge to answer it.

What I won't do is hunt through the internet for more information when you tell me I need to do so.

Tribesman
08-29-2007, 07:17
That's because I don't take you seriously, Tribesman. Any other person I would have probably answered.
No you wouldn't , you are unable to because for some strange reason some people are unable to come up with anything much on Venezuela even though they really like to moan about the government ...... it must be something to do with basing their ideas on a few badly written news articles which they accept without question .
Hey look
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90005....Rabbit had a lot to say didn't he .:laugh4: :laugh4:
What is even funnier is that he chimed in in this thread yet when I asked him about the food shortages in an earlier topic all he managed was errr......errrrr....they import food ....like errr.....sugar .:dizzy2:



Sure, just ask it in an intelligible way. Seriously, I don't understand what the hell his point was... and it's certainly not worth bothering to ask him to clarify.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Ah so the question was too hard was it , would you like some clarity then .
So now Ice , could you explain what the goods are , where and why there is a shortage , and what exactly is the black market in those goods ?....
Which goods are subject to the subsidised prices ? are the subsidies across the board on all those goods ? where could you buy those subsidsed goods ? why do those places not have the goods (often or for long) ? what exactly is the nature of the black market in those goods ?
Easier to understand ?
It is a policy that is seriously screwed up .
But I would expect people to actually know how it is screwed up for them to be able to say how screwed it is , and that is what is repeatedly completely lacking .

Anyhow Xiahou , any further thoughts about my response to your....
Actually, it sounds like there is plenty of short-term damage. It's just that it's been kept more or less in check by the oil dollars that Chavez keeps throwing at the problem. Things will get really ugly when their production fades or if prices drop significantly.....or is it just that you didn't think before you wrote it ?

Ice
08-29-2007, 13:59
Same rant. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

What a load up tripe! Many you can stop this bollocks and actually post something that doesn't suck!

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Ser Clegane
08-29-2007, 14:12
I don't think that we are going anywhere useful here.

If you are genuinely interested in a discussion it might be helpful sometimes to actually bring facts on the table to further a discussion instead of just asking for others to bring the facts on the table and trying to ridicule/bait them which rather destroys discussions as we have seen over and over again.
But perhaps an actual discussion is not in everybody's interest ... a pity :no:

OTOH, if you don't like the "debating" style of others it is very simple to just ignore them instead of trying to let of steam by flaming them.

Closed