An odd bit of music in Kingdoms

[Forward Observer]

I haven't started an expansion campaign yet since I am in the middle of a grand campaign, but I did start up a campaign in the Britannia section just to get a look at the strategic map and so on.

Like the main game while you are on the strategic map there are ambient sounds of the wind blowing, crickets chirping and on, but there are also very short music interludes about every minute or so.

Mostly apropos stuff one would expect like mournful bagpipes, or a flute sole, or mandolin, and what sounds like a woman singing something Gaelic, then to my surprise I hear something that I have heard countless times before, and to the best of my knowledge it is not remotely medieval---a banjo.

I used to play one and I am not aware anything else that sounds like it. Also, if I am not mistaken it is one of the few instruments that is strictly an American invention.

Is anyone aware of something medieval that might sound like a banjo?

the result of this:
This has totally ruined the expansion for me and I am returning it. Furthermore I intend to petition the banjo players of America to meet in front of CA's headquarters next week and treat them to 12 hours straight of the dueling banjos number from the movie Deliverance.

OK, OK, the last was a bit over the top, but it does seem kind of anachronistic. Next I figure I'll start the Teutonic campaign and hear an accordion and a tuba playing the beer barrel polka--lol.

All kidding aside, I still love the total war games, and a couple of plunks on a banjo during the 13th century is no big deal. In fact, come to think of it, a German ompah band might be kind of fun too.

Cheers

[Valdincan]

There is a medieval era instrument that sounds something like a banjo, but I for get the name.

I will try to look it up.

[Katana]

Furthermore I intend to petition the banjo players of America to meet in front of CA's headquarters next week and treat them to 12 hours straight of the dueling banjos number from the movie Deliverance.


dude, if that happens, you've gotta get a video.

[Ramses II CP]

Isn't a lute somewhat similar? IIRC the lute would have been played in some areas around the appropriate time period.

[Benandorf]

The banjo is very similar to certain types of lute. And is a type of lute itself, I believe.

I believe it was just some sort of lute instrument you heard, and not a Banjo.

[Darkarbiter]

I haven't started an expansion campaign yet since I am in the middle of a grand campaign, but I did start up a campaign in the Britannia section just to get a look at the strategic map and so on.

Like the main game while you are on the strategic map there are ambient sounds of the wind blowing, crickets chirping and on, but there are also very short music interludes about every minute or so.

Mostly apropos stuff one would expect like mournful bagpipes, or a flute sole, or mandolin, and what sounds like a woman singing something Gaelic, then to my surprise I hear something that I have heard countless times before, and to the best of my knowledge it is not remotely medieval---a banjo.

I used to play one and I am not aware anything else that sounds like it. Also, if I am not mistaken it is one of the few instruments that is strictly an American invention.

Is anyone aware of something medieval that might sound like a banjo?

the result of this:
This has totally ruined the expansion for me and I am returning it. Furthermore I intend to petition the banjo players of America to meet in front of CA's headquarters next week and treat them to 12 hours straight of the dueling banjos number from the movie Deliverance.

OK, OK, the last was a bit over the top, but it does seem kind of anachronistic. Next I figure I'll start the Teutonic campaign and hear an accordion and a tuba playing the beer barrel polka--lol.

All kidding aside, I still love the total war games, and a couple of plunks on a banjo during the 13th century is no big deal. In fact, come to think of it, a German ompah band might be kind of fun too.

Cheers
YES TOTALLY AGREE.
Haven't got kingdoms yet but I have a very big similar complaint of m2tw.
Just been playing some arabic nations recently... hear this song with these relaly cool arabic drums... then the main melody is played on... a type of chinese stringed instrument! It sounds totally out of place, stupid and a-historical. Also JvD rarely uses the Arabic scale.

[hirins]

i think some people in this thread are making an elephant out of a mosquito (or as i heard english people say - making mountain out of a molehill) :laugh4:

[Tora]

Playing as the Welsh - shame they all sound like Dickensian Londoners and Colonel Blimp - and I'm pretty sure it's a banjo. Might have sounded like a medieval instrument if it was being played single string but there's the odd chord and arpeggio in there too.
I seem to remember an instrument in Mongol Invasion which sounded banjo-ish and actually played a line which seemed to be like (sings) 'Well I come from Alabama with a banjo on my knee' but single string and not as banjoey as the instrument in Britannia.

[Kraggenmor]

Is anyone aware of something medieval that might sound like a banjo?

Having not heard it, my guess would be that it's a Dulcimer.

Now, if its playing 'The wreck of the old 97' or 'Foggy Mountain Breakdown' THAT would be immersion breaking.

Though...having "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" rolling during the 6x speed chasing of routers would be more fun than "Yakkity Sax."

[Forward Observer]

After what turned into a fairly entertaining and enlightening search on the Internet, I have come to the conclusion that they were going for a lute sound.

Here is what I gathered from several sources. (most found linked through Wikipedia)

The lute was a very popular instrument during the middle ages and on, but eventually fell out of favor for more easily constructed and played string instruments such as the mandolin and later the guitar. The medieval lute had 5 courses of 2 strings (10 total), but as time passed more and more strings were added, so eventually by the 17the century there were lutes with 12 and 14 courses of 2.

Only in the last 100 years or so has there been much interest in a revival of lute music, and no musical instrument company actually manufactures them. They are mostly custom made to order by artisans who copy original old instruments. Buying one second hand is about the only other way to obtain one.

However a lute still is still made of wood, so it has a wooden sound box and strings were made of gut. The few on line recordings I found varied in quality, but only the worst one sounded remotely like a banjo.

The banjo, on the other hand, was developed by the early African slaves brought to America. Its design was based on gourd instruments played by various African tribes. It eventually evolved into the steel stringed instrument with a drum skinned sound box that we know today.

Dulcimers come in two varieties--plucked and hammered. The plucked is referred to as the Appalachian variety being played by Early American mountain folk.

The hammered dulcimer is the older variety and has taken many forms in many countries. It was also a medieval instrument. Once again since it has a wooden sound box, it just doesn't have the high pitch percussion twang of a banjo.

Oddly, there is one other instrument that is very much like the banjo and that is the ancient 3 stringed Japanese Shamisan. Although it looks quite like a banjo, its tonality is quite different and since traditional Japanese music uses a scale that is different than western music there is no confusing the two.

Bottom line is that I think they were going for a Lute sound, but for whatever reason I think they either substituted a banjo or the recording distorted the tone so that it end up sounding more like a banjo than a lute.

I really have to hand it to the Creative Assembly. Besides combat flight sims, the games developed by these wonderful people have done more to stimulate my thirst for knowledge outside my normal interests than just about anything I have been involved since I first started playing Shogun 5 or 6 years ago.

Cheers

[Zenicetus]

Careful about the banjo threat. I think more than one playing at the same time is considered an act of terrorism in some countries.

About the music... the composer is probably working with sample sets of orchestras and "world music" collections played on a keyboard. These "world" collections are mainly contemporary, and there isn't much out there (last time I looked) for ancient/historical instruments other than a few like lute that are still commonly played. So the composer has to pick something that sounds kinda close to the feel they're aiming at, and wing it. In this case, they ended up with something a little to close to a banjo, apparently. I haven't heard it myself, just going by the description here. I don't think the composer actually said "Hey, that could use a banjo right there!" Maybe it was a samisen or something else that has banjo-ish timbre? Although even that would be an odd choice. Music in the medieval period in that part of the world should have been mainly harp, pipes (including bagpipes), and flute, I think... although I'm not an expert.

P.S. I read somewhere in the threads for the upcoming Empire game that the battlefield armies will include music -- drum and fife, that sort of thing. That's going to be a neat addition to the game. I will definitely tell my artillery to go after the bagpipes first, and then the banjos, if there are any.

(Edit after seeing Forward's post) -- yeah, probably they were going for lute but didn't have that particular sample set, so they winged it with something else that unfortunately had that banjo resonance.

[Guyus Germanicus]

:laugh4: :laugh4:
I'm definitely enjoying this thread. Maybe they can get Alison Krauss to cut some sound tracks for Empires. :2thumbsup: Or, even Bill Monroe. Is he still alive, I wonder?

Actually, for the most part I have really enjoyed the way CA has integrated the music into their games RTW and M2TW. I haven't played the earlier CA games, so don't know what their sound tracks are like. The victory music for the Roman factions makes you want to stand up and salute, or say 'Hail Caesar!' One of the CDs that comes with the ERAs package contains nothing but soundtracks from RTW and the other CA games. I've been impressed with the creativity of the composers for the most part.

[Cheetah]

Music was and is still a strenght of the TW games. Shogun music is just phenomenal. Beautiful and atmospheric. MTW music is also very thrilling, some parts were even used in ads on TV, IIRc it was the muslim deployment. I often just played custom battles with the Danes to hear the Viking victory music ~D You should really get both STW and MTW music, you are missing a lot ~;)

[Darkarbiter]

Music was and is still a strenght of the TW games. Shogun music is just phenomenal. Beautiful and atmospheric. MTW music is also very thrilling, some parts were even used in ads on TV, IIRc it was the muslim deployment. I often just played custom battles with the Danes to hear the Viking victory music ~D You should really get both STW and MTW music, you are missing a lot ~;)
Yeh I've heard lots of a particuler muslums song everywhere (background on a radio show as well as a few other places)... I have a feeling JvD may not have invented that song though?

[Tora]

Became fed up of being steamrollered by the English after Edward got back from the Crusade so delved into the sound files.

The banjo piece is at 44:49 in the music dat file. Certainly sounds like a banjo

Curiously there's a piece at 29:35 which sounds as if it should be played on a banjo but is possibly a mandolin.

To confuse matters even further there's an mp3 called 'banjooie' in the music.dx file but is possibly not banjo related.

Hear the one about the guy who hijacked a busload of banjo players and threatened to release them one by one if his demands weren't met......
(I'll get me coat....)

[IrishArmenian]

I haven't noticed this at all. I have no idea what you are talking about. The music for Kingdoms is amazing!

[Jasper The Builder]

Playing as the Welsh - shame they all sound like Dickensian Londoners and Colonel Blimp

The Scottish get their accents done and no doubt the Irish do too, but the poor Welsh that have been subjected for 800 years get nothing.

This might cheer ya up :yes:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XSiU1HrVjUw&mode=related&search=

[Tora]

The Scottish get their accents done and no doubt the Irish do too, but the poor Welsh that have been subjected for 800 years get nothing.

Quite true, if Mel Gibson had had a hit with 'Twm Sion Cati' or something things would be quite different.

I'm not actually Welsh, just live a mile from the Welsh border in the middle of where a lot of the Anglo-Welsh action took place - Owain Glyndwr supposedly torched the church and castle once - so thought I'd try it first.

[hoetje]

I think music is awesome in kingdoms :P

[Riadach]

The Irish have scottish accents. The music is very twee though.