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Proletariat
08-31-2007, 14:42
Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?

drone
08-31-2007, 15:47
Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?
Moderates. ~D

Xiahou
08-31-2007, 15:50
Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?
Not to mention that "liberal" by definition can't be moderate. Liberalism is about change, conservatism is about preserving the status quo. Neither side of the pond really uses the terms as they should, strictly speaking.

My theory for the difference is that the US was founded on a limited government, therefore to us, conservatism is trying to maintain that. I think that Europe doesn't have the same foundations in that regard, so the term takes on different meaning.

*I haven't really put much thought into this, mind you. :beam:

Ser Clegane
08-31-2007, 16:05
Not to mention that "liberal" by definition can't be moderate. Liberalism is about change, conservatism is about preserving the status quo. Neither side of the pond really uses the terms as they should, strictly speaking.

Actually, by definition "liberalism" is not necessarily about "change" - if you look at the meaning of the word it is about "freedom". So actually, by definition, it is not necessarily the opposite of conservatism (e.g., by definition it should be "liberal" to be against strong gun control).

This is in line with how (at least AFAIK - I am sure about the German use of the term) "liberal" is used here in Europe (and more in line with what is called "libertarian" in the US).

Geoffrey S
08-31-2007, 16:11
It's the usual problem of attempting to fit politics onto a straight line, bookending it with arbitrary terms such as "right" and "left".

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 16:38
Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?

I put them on a special list of people deserving a good torching :laugh4:

Seriously though, nazi/fascist parties are, of course, way more extreme right than the republicans are. Extreme-extreme-extreme right might be fitting.


Not to mention that "liberal" by definition can't be moderate. Liberalism is about change, conservatism is about preserving the status quo. Neither side of the pond really uses the terms as they should, strictly speaking.

As Ser_Clegane points out, liberalism is about freedom, not change. However, there are two forms of liberalism:

- Economic liberalism, ie. free-market, minimal state, low taxes etc.
- Social liberalism, ie. personal freedom, what you do is your own business and should not restricted, or in other words, pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, etc(as Ser_Clegane pointed out, pro-guns is a liberal stance)

Now, the parties who have BOTH of these forms in their policy, belong in the centre. They have are both left(social) and right(economic), and +1 - -1 = 0.

However, other parties usually stick with one of those forms while banning the other, or, more commonly, put major restrictions and only allow it in certain areas. Those with an emphasis on economic and not social usually belong on the right. The opposite belongs on the left. Note that here in europe, he usual stance for most conservatives(like the democrats) is slightly off centre , in that they have a lot of economic liberalism, but they also have quite a bit of social liberalism too.

Myself, for example, belongs on the left. I'm big on social liberalism, but I want great restrictions on economic liberalism. Don_Corleone(well, from what I've seen of his posts), on the other hand, is a fan of economic liberalism, while being a conservative on the social issues, thus placing him on the right.

Don Corleone
08-31-2007, 17:16
Myself, for example, belongs on the left. I'm big on social liberalism, but I want great restrictions on economic liberalism. Don_Corleone(well, from what I've seen of his posts), on the other hand, is a fan of economic liberalism, while being a conservative on the social issues, thus placing him on the right.

I'd say I'm much more a fan of economic liberalism than social conservatism (in fact, on some matters, I'm rather socially liberal as well). The problem stems from the fact that politics really occupies a two variable space, but we all try to define it in one dimension (left and right). If they serve no other purpose, those endless Libertarian 'political position' charts should be regarded for getting people to start thinking like that.

I do find it interesting that in condensing from two dimensions to one, economics wins over social issues. People that are economically liberal and socially liberal consider themselves (and everybody else considers them) rightys. People that are economically conservative and socially conservative consider themselves (and every body else considers) lefty.

Proletariat
08-31-2007, 17:19
However, other parties usually stick with one of those forms while banning the other, or, more commonly, put major restrictions and only allow it in certain areas. Those with an emphasis on economic and not social usually belong on the right. The opposite belongs on the left. Note that here in europe, he usual stance for most conservatives(like the democrats) is slightly off centre , in that they have a lot of economic liberalism, but they also have quite a bit of social liberalism too.


There's a good difference between the European view and our's, our Libertarian party, who represents economic and social liberlism is considered rather far right, rather than centric.

Even that is up for debate though, so here it isn't that cut and dry either.


Capitalist libertarians consider themselves proponents of Classical liberalism, which was the the main adversary of the first far-right. In his essay "Left and Right: the Prospects for Liberty" and "Confessions of a Right-Wing Liberal", Murray Rothbard even put libertarianism on the left, claiming that conservatives are the right and socialists merely "middle-of-the road".[3][4] However, George Lakoff, in his book Moral Politics, states that libertarianism draws from the conservative metaphorical model of American political ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_right

Like Geoffrey pointed out, it's better to view political spectrums as circular, rather than a left-right line. Stalin and Hitler's governments had alot more in common with each other than our Republicans and Democrats here, even tho the the former are considered 'extreme left' and 'extreme right.'

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 17:36
I'd say I'm much more a fan of economic liberalism than social conservatism (in fact, on some matters, I'm rather socially liberal as well). The problem stems from the fact that politics really occupies a two variable space, but we all try to define it in one dimension (left and right). If they serve no other purpose, those endless Libertarian 'political position' charts should be regarded for getting people to start thinking like that.

I do find it interesting that in condensing from two dimensions to one, economics wins over social issues. People that are economically liberal and socially liberal consider themselves (and everybody else considers them) rightys. People that are economically conservative and socially conservative consider themselves (and every body else considers) lefty.

Yes, that's the problem with left/right view, it's meant to cover only economic issues. Social stuff isn't really covered by it, so when defining parties, their economic policies are always counted first. We really need 2 scales to take that into account, one left/right for economics, and one liberal/conservative(or whatever) for social issues. I like this one:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Proletariat
08-31-2007, 17:52
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 5.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13

Interesting but there were some pretty loaded questions there, HoreTore.

:juggle2:

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 17:55
Interesting but there were some pretty loaded questions there, HoreTore.

:juggle2:

I wasn't referring to the test, I was referring to their scale ~;)

Btw:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -9.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.23

Sasaki Kojiro
08-31-2007, 18:27
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/30/craig.arrest/index.html

craig's police interview

Don Corleone
08-31-2007, 18:51
Economic: 8.25
Social: -1.23
(I'm right next to Milton Friedman! :-) )

So for all the talk about how I'm socially conservative, actually, the guys on the right that say I lean left on social issues are correct.

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 18:59
Economic: 8.25
Social: -1.23
(I'm right next to Milton Friedman! :-) )

So for all the talk about how I'm socially conservative, actually, the guys on the right that say I lean left on social issues are correct.

Well, I agree with that, seeing as I agree with you a surprising number of times...

Xiahou
08-31-2007, 19:15
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
My turn! My turn! :beam:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.87

That seems pretty close. My social conservatism definitely takes the backseat to my economic conservatism.

I agree that blanket conservative/liberal labels are a bit simplistic as there are clear social and economic components to each.

Lemur
08-31-2007, 19:22
Economic Left/Right: 3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64

As for using HoreTore's pithy quip for a siggie, as Cartman says, "I do what I want!"

FactionHeir
08-31-2007, 19:27
Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.21

Although personally I would categorize myself slightly less leftist and more authoritarian.

Ummm as for the topic... While I can somewhat understand how he is trying to avoid his homosexual affections by displaying himself as a staunch opponent to it, I do think that Craig would be wise to resign at this point (for the good of his party, and also to possibly get out of public spotlight), as with the contradictions in his attitude in relation to his actions diminishes the credibility he may have had.

Ronin
08-31-2007, 19:35
Economic Left/Right: -3.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.44

I guess being in the Gandhi neighborhood isn“t too shabby :laugh4:

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 19:42
As for using HoreTore's pithy quip for a siggie, as Cartman says, "I do what I want!"

I had to check that in Wiktionary to determine if it was a compliment or an insult... Darn you native english speakers! :whip:


I'm feeling rather alone in the bottom left corner though... Nobody wants to join me? :embarassed:

Odin
08-31-2007, 20:20
Economic Left/Right: 1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.31

Can someone explain to me what this means? Please be kind in your descriptions.

Don Corleone
08-31-2007, 20:40
Economic Left/Right: 1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.31

Can someone explain to me what this means? Please be kind in your descriptions.

Well, according to their website, I'm more a Libertarian than you are, for one. :laugh4:

Honestly, the big difference is most likely that you don't trust big corporations any more than you trust big government and that's skewing your results on the economic scale.

Remember, I'm in more Ayn Rand, Milton Freedman territory. You're probably where most people who fit the more generally accepted view of Libertarians reside.

Proletariat
08-31-2007, 20:42
Economic Left/Right: 1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.31

Can someone explain to me what this means? Please be kind in your descriptions.

You're a trouble-making moderate who insists on stymying any progress in any of the four directions the scales measure!

:whip:

Ironside
08-31-2007, 21:58
Well, I agree with that, seeing as I agree with you a surprising number of times...

Don is one of those agreeable people on the other political scale. There's a few of them running around here.

My results are about the same as the usually are.

Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.26

Ice
08-31-2007, 22:10
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -0.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.31

I'm fairly moderate, like I figured. A little more left on freedoms though, but not much.

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 22:16
My results are about the same as the usually are.

Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.26

Woho! Another socialist leftie! *does the happy dance*

Odin
08-31-2007, 22:31
You're a trouble-making moderate who insists on stymying any progress in any of the four directions the scales measure!

:whip:

Figures, a woman is the one who is wise to me...

:medievalcheers:

Odin
08-31-2007, 22:35
Well, according to their website, I'm more a Libertarian than you are, for one. :laugh4:

Odd as my evaluation of you has been a "reasonable conservative", my own grouping.


Honestly, the big difference is most likely that you don't trust big corporations any more than you trust big government and that's skewing your results on the economic scale.

Well this is true, but I do trust corporations more then government, at least with them its all about profit.


Remember, I'm in more Ayn Rand, Milton Freedman territory. You're probably where most people who fit the more generally accepted view of Libertarians reside.

As I spend more time here and evolve my outlooks given others opinions I find myself leaning more and more to the right, with a few notable exceptions.

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 22:38
As I spend more time here and evolve my outlooks given others opinions I find myself leaning more and more to the right, with a few notable exceptions.

My mission is a failure then.... ~:mecry:

Odin
08-31-2007, 22:46
My mission is a failure then.... ~:mecry:

Well I am hardly predictable HoreTore, I may be on a greenpeace boat next week ramming japanese fishing vessels while tucked away in my backpack are hamiltons & madisons federalist papers.

However, it seems I have contributed to taking this thread off track, my appologies to those on topic.

Louis VI the Fat
08-31-2007, 23:12
Economic Left/Right: -6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.77

~:mecry:

Silly Yank site! If I were American, right now I'd turn myself in for being a subversive fifth columnist commie! :shame:

Whereas in fact I am a moderate centre-rightist!!1! I guess this test proves HoreTore's theorem. The rightwing Euros register as ultra-left on an American scale, and the leftist Americans as centrist.
Has any Euro here made it into the + on this scale yet? Where's Fragony?
I'm also dying to find out where Tribes or JAG would end up.

HoreTore
08-31-2007, 23:31
Silly Yank site!

It's a european site, in fact.... Congratulations on your new place as a leftie! :laugh4:

seireikhaan
08-31-2007, 23:41
Economic Left/Right: -4.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41

Well, I cannot say I'm too surprised by the results.

Louis VI the Fat
09-01-2007, 00:10
It's a european site, in fact.... Congratulations on your new place as a leftie! :laugh4:Sticking with my new status: even if it is of European making, it is still America's fault, somehow.

Lemur
09-01-2007, 00:55
I had to check that in Wiktionary to determine if it was a compliment or an insult...
I'm not sure it's either, but here's the reference. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV38X_4p_Q)

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 03:58
I guess this is a good time to split the thread so we don't keep taking this offtopic.

Proletariat
09-01-2007, 04:05
If there was(is) anything having to do with Larry Craig that is worth talking about anymore, we would be (or soon will). Not a bad tangent, imho

Boyar Son
09-01-2007, 04:05
Economic Left/Right: -4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.97

This is by all means the perfect political stance ~D

Productivity
09-01-2007, 04:43
https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1459/compassorgxr6.th.jpg (https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9715/compassorglx0.jpg)


Hmm, Interesting. I think this is a good time to split this thread however.

Xiahou
09-01-2007, 07:00
https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1459/compassorgxr6.th.jpg (https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/9715/compassorglx0.jpg)


Hmm, Interesting. I think this is a good time to split this thread however.
Cool chart. I'm still wondering how Don managed to rate as a bigger capitalist pig than I, though. :sweatdrop:

Crazed Rabbit
09-01-2007, 07:04
I think I'm at 7.5 and 1, so 0.5 to the right of Xiahou on that chart thingy.

I didn't like the questions that much.

CR

Tribesman
09-01-2007, 11:40
-4.75 , -6.92

Ser Clegane
09-01-2007, 11:56
-2.00
-3.69
for me ~:)

Pannonian
09-01-2007, 12:06
Not to mention that "liberal" by definition can't be moderate. Liberalism is about change, conservatism is about preserving the status quo. Neither side of the pond really uses the terms as they should, strictly speaking.

My theory for the difference is that the US was founded on a limited government, therefore to us, conservatism is trying to maintain that. I think that Europe doesn't have the same foundations in that regard, so the term takes on different meaning.

*I haven't really put much thought into this, mind you. :beam:
The US was founded on classically liberal ideas. The famous paragraph from the American DoI is as good a summary of classical liberalism as there is. If one goes back a bit further, one can trace the break between liberalism and the state back to the corresponding break between protestantism and the established church. IMHO that's why Britain is a bit different from mainland Europe in our political thinking, and the US more different still.

econ21
09-01-2007, 12:13
Economic Left/Right: -1.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.62

Productivity
09-01-2007, 12:25
I've updated it with Crazed Rabbit, Tribesman, econ21 and Ser Clegane. I've also added an average - it's just the mean of all scores. Ice wins at the moment.

https://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6497/compassorgbx9.th.jpg (https://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorgbx9.jpg)

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 12:30
Your name truly suits you :yes:
Well done with the graphing.

Big King Sanctaphrax
09-01-2007, 12:43
Economic Left/Right: -1.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.46

Similar to Econ.

Slyspy
09-01-2007, 13:08
Economic Left/Right: -3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.49

Innocentius
09-01-2007, 14:32
If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?

Hehe, over here, a party with the views of the Republicans would probably considered a threat to the welfare of our society. Like that British doctor said in Sicko: It would be a revolution if socialized healthcare was removed. Also, no political party with the word "Front" in their name can be any good.

I took the political compass too, by the way:
Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
Pretty close to Dalai Lama...

To be honest though, this doesn't really reflect my political views as I'm a fascist in some aspects, anarchist in some and just plain ignorant and indifferent in others. A political test can never be perfect. I prefer to define my political stance from my philosophic view: to heck with it all.

Geoffrey S
09-01-2007, 14:55
Economic Left/Right: 2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.03

Hmm. It's probably more to the right than I'd naturally place myself, but I disagreed with the way a large number of the statements were phrased. Oh well.

Productivity, nice initiative! It'd be interesting to see how it all turns out.

Sasaki Kojiro
09-01-2007, 15:43
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.31

Mind you, I don't really no what I'm talking about in economics, a bunch of the questions were confusing. I honestly have no idea what effect multinational monopolies have.

Interesting thing about that graph, we only have 4 authoritarians and they're barely above the line.

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 15:47
I think I only didn't understand one of the questions (I think bottom of page 3 or 4)

Also, some questions really depended on how you understood/read them.
For example I would think more carefully about a question that includes the words "always" "X should be Y" "everytime".
I guess the result depends a lot on how critically you think about a given question and consider out of the box cases that might possibly not be completely agreeable.

Ice
09-01-2007, 16:02
I've updated it with Crazed Rabbit, Tribesman, econ21 and Ser Clegane. I've also added an average - it's just the mean of all scores. Ice wins at the moment.

https://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6497/compassorgbx9.th.jpg (https://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorgbx9.jpg)

:2thumbsup:

econ21
09-01-2007, 16:59
Interesting thing about that graph, we only have 4 authoritarians and they're barely above the line.

Yes, I noticed that. I guess it is the Orgs demographic - the Org is mainly young men who are into the internet and computer gaming. I suspect they tend to be fairly liberal on the questions of sex, religion and patriotism that determine the vertical axis.

It's an interesting graph, Productivity. Maybe you could persuade Divinus Arma to include it in his post #1 of the "who the hell are you?" stickie?

It might be fun to colour code the entries by region - casual inspection suggests Euros and Yanks have rather different centres of gravity! (which I believe was the starting point for this thread ...)

HoreTore
09-01-2007, 17:07
It might be fun to colour code the entries by region - casual inspection suggests Euros and Yanks have rather different centres of gravity! (which I believe was the starting point for this thread ...)

Well... At least it was the final off-topic nail getting the original thread completely off course :laugh4:

FactionHeir
09-01-2007, 17:23
It is actually quite surprising how many people are close to HoreTore, even though he is generally seen as being "the socialist" around here :grin:

Lord Winter
09-01-2007, 17:27
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.36

Fairly moderate to, with a liberal lean on social issues.

HoreTore
09-01-2007, 17:28
It is actually quite surprising how many people are close to HoreTore, even though he is generally seen as being "the socialist" around here :grin:

Well, to be honest, I think I should be a little to the right on the economics, seeing as I want free markets, just not everywhere... Some things are best done by the state IMO. In other areas, the private sector handles things just fine, though I'd like the state to be a competitor too.

Proletariat
09-01-2007, 17:31
HoreTore seems like a socialist, but he can be reasonable. What you need is JAG to stop by and take the quiz.

:yes:

HoreTore
09-01-2007, 17:33
HoreTore seems like a socialist, but he can be reasonable. What you need is JAG to stop by and take the quiz.

:yes:

We socialists are always reasonable ~;)

It's all the others who are being unreasonable!

Crazed Rabbit
09-01-2007, 17:51
Lol.

I think I'd be more libertarian on the social issues scale if they had some different questions.

CR

Strike For The South
09-01-2007, 19:35
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.97

HoreTore
09-01-2007, 20:02
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.97

A....Texan, and a COMMIE...?? Could this be true???

:laugh4:

Ser Clegane
09-01-2007, 20:03
A....Texan, and a COMMIE...?? Could this be true???

:laugh4:

Scary, isn't it? :sweatdrop:

seireikhaan
09-01-2007, 21:29
Well, can we be too surprised? After learning Louis was both French and a Texan, not much surprises me anymore.

Don Corleone
09-01-2007, 23:24
HoreTore seems like a socialist, but he can be reasonable. What you need is JAG to stop by and take the quiz.

:yes:

Even Jag can be reasonable sometimes, he just leads with his bleeding heart. If you're really looking for an off-the-hook Lefty, have Idaho take it. I bet the chart can't measure him.

Strike For The South
09-02-2007, 00:07
wow I am with all the commies. Thankfully I have guns god and illegal fetus killing or I would be past HoreTore.

Productivity
09-02-2007, 03:54
Ok I have done some updates and added some extra things. First the main chart has been updated - SFTS is now the closest to the average of the org.

https://img131.imageshack.us/img131/8314/compassorgwo4.th.jpg (https://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorgwo4.jpg)

Secondly I've added an EU/US/Other category with varying series. I haven't put names or the average into this as I'm trying to keep it less busy than the original chart - cross reference to that if you want to find yourself. If I've incorrectly categorised you I'm sorry, get back to me and I'll change it.

https://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7063/compassorgregionpe4.th.jpg (https://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorgregionpe4.jpg)

Last I've put together a comparison to find distances between all members. This just does a simple calculation (who can remember back to high school and finding the length of the hypotenuse?) between every member and plots it. The closer to green/the smaller the number, the closer you are, red is the opposite.

https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/2239/compassorganalysismv3.th.jpg (https://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorganalysismv3.jpg)

If you want to include these in your thread Divinus Arma, feel free.

Proletariat
09-02-2007, 03:59
Hah! That's really awesome, Productivity. My greenest is my ole buddy Lemur.

:knuddel:

Lemur
09-02-2007, 04:11
This is gettin' kinda fancy, and I must say I'm impressed.

Sasaki Kojiro
09-02-2007, 04:29
Wow, the division between EU/US is really clear.

Lemur
09-02-2007, 04:37
If you'll note, Sasaki, we Americans are spread all across the spectrum, whilst you Europeans are all clustered in the bottom left quadrant. I'd say this speaks highly for our diversity of thought.

FactionHeir
09-02-2007, 04:39
One way to explain it: The US is younger than Europe, so the anarchists have not had enough time to convert everyone to their thinking yet :laugh4:

Geoffrey S
09-02-2007, 11:01
Darnit. I'm the right-most European if that is to be believed. Fragony, please take that test ASAP!

Pannonian
09-02-2007, 11:50
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.18

econ21
09-02-2007, 12:08
Good work, Productivity. :bow: I think the two unknowns on your graph (Geoffrey_S and I) are both Euros.

I wonder what is the mean difference in the horizontal and vertical axes between the Euros and the Yanks? The graph makes it look like the big difference economic, but the Euros are also lower on the social scale.


...whilst you Europeans are all clustered in the bottom left quadrant.

True, but none of European "rightwinger" I know have taken the test yet.

Banquo's Ghost
09-02-2007, 13:02
...but the Euros are also lower on the social scale.

:grin2:

Speak for yourself, old fruit. :toff:

Marcellus
09-02-2007, 13:57
Your political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -1.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95

Louis VI the Fat
09-02-2007, 14:48
If you'll note, Sasaki, we Americans are spread all across the spectrum, whilst you Europeans are all clustered in the bottom left quadrant. I'd say this speaks highly for our diversity of thought.Ho-ho, hang on! We are dealing with .Org demographics.

For one thing, the French DevDave's or Fragonies don't speak English. At least not enough to participate on an English forum for recreational purposes.

I think the continental orgah demographic in general are even more skewed towards the younger and better educated than the .org in general. I.e. liberal, leftist college or recent ex-college students. The continental Xiahou's, Dons and Odins are not here either. It is one thing that I've noticed before, that the Americans here are much more varied than the Euros.

This is very interesting, Productivity. Thanks for your effort.


Speak for yourself, old fruit.Mind taking the test? I'm quite curious to your result.

KukriKhan
09-02-2007, 15:54
Ha! Excellent observation, Louis; we Yanks sometimes forget what part of the european population would likely ever visit such a place as totalwar.org's backroom, let alone participate.

I took HoreTore's survey twice: once last night after several beers concluding a particularly strenuous 2 weeks of work. That result:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41 A Euro in disguise!

then again, this morning, sober, after watching some of the political talking-heads TV shows:

Economic Left/Right: 6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 8.05 Ghengis Khan was a weenie compared to me!:laugh4:

My explanation for the disparity is, when drinking, I'm less likely to want to control my environment. Sober, I crave absolute control, as long as I'm the one in-charge!

Either that, or I'm a nut case.

HoreTore
09-02-2007, 16:10
The ultimate reason why drinking is good!!





Or, it may explain why we euro's are lefties... :laugh4:

drone
09-02-2007, 16:54
Your political compass

Economic Left/Right: 0.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.08

Sounds about right on the Social side, but I figured I'd be a little more positive on the Economic. I don't trust the government, but I don't really trust unregulated corporations either.

Evil_Maniac From Mars
09-02-2007, 22:47
Economic Left/Right: -4.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.82

That's not too far off, it's about where Pope Benedict is, though on most tests I take I'm slightly more to the right authoritarian, at about -1.5/2 and 1/2 respectively.

Kralizec
09-02-2007, 23:17
Economic Left/Right: 4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.49

That sounds about right. I think I may be slightly more to the left economically, I didn't like some of the questions in that test.

Andres
09-02-2007, 23:33
Economic Left/Right: -4.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.13

Csargo
09-02-2007, 23:55
Economic Left/Right: -4.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.62

Scurvy
09-03-2007, 00:17
Economic Left/Right: -5.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.18

:2thumbsup:

Crazed Rabbit
09-03-2007, 02:48
Hmm, this seems to tell us that is the Europeans who have a off kilter sense of left and right politics, not the Americans.

CR

Ironside
09-03-2007, 08:56
Hmm, this seems to tell us that is the Europeans who have a off kilter sense of left and right politics, not the Americans.

CR

Did you check out the EU political compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/euchart)? And the US primaries compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2007)?

But sure, you're correct, how else would the Europeian goverments be in that square while the people in the opposite one? :laugh4:

naut
09-03-2007, 09:41
Hmmmm, interesting range of alignment, (but that's obvious in the Backroom without the quiz), it's interesting to see that the age of the Orgah generally relates to the alignment. The younger members seem to be more left and liberal than the older members.


Economic Left/Right: -6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.82
Much more left than I thought it would be.

JR-
09-03-2007, 10:05
i would have said i was strongly libertarian/right, but i guess it's the way the questions are phrased:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.56

Sigurd
09-03-2007, 10:33
I did the test and I find myself dead center.

Economic Left/Right: -0.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15

Geoffrey S
09-03-2007, 10:50
Hmm, this seems to tell us that is the Europeans who have a off kilter sense of left and right politics, not the Americans.

CR
Louis had a good point there, in that it's not necessarily the Europeans as a whole but that a rather different group of European people is represented on these forums than Americans (ie. young, liberal student types). Voting patterns in the EU definitely don't show an innate leftist bias.

Haudegen
09-03-2007, 11:25
Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.05

Productivity
09-03-2007, 12:09
Update time!

https://img20.imageshack.us/img20/866/compassorgqx8.th.jpg (https://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorgqx8.jpg)

https://img160.imageshack.us/img160/4404/compassorgregionla2.th.jpg (https://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorgregionla2.jpg)

https://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6216/compassorganalysisfk3.th.jpg (https://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=compassorganalysisfk3.jpg)

Furunculu5, Haudegen and Ichigo I'm not sure where to put you (EU/US/Other) so that's why you don't come up on the regional map. Evil_Maniac From Mars I only saw your signature after I'd set these up (I have them turned off) so you'll turn up on the regional map next time.

KukriKhan I put you in as your sober result mostly because that quarter was looking a bit lonely:beam:. If you'd prefer me to move it I will.

The Europeans move a little to the right in this update but hte average position moves slightly to the left. Sigurd gets the reward to closests to 0,0 and SFTS is still closest to the average.

Csargo
09-03-2007, 12:29
I am teh Americana.

Banquo's Ghost
09-03-2007, 12:34
KukriKhan I put you in as your sober result mostly because that quarter was looking a bit lonely:beam:. If you'd prefer me to move it I will.


:shocked2:

I, for one, welcome our KukriKhan overlord and stand ready to provide our glorious leader with my daughters/sons/hamsters for whatever purpose he deems fit - should he deign to notice a meaningless worm such as myself beneath his awesome feet.

Psst! Someone get the boss some beer.

:creep:

JR-
09-03-2007, 12:50
UK (i.e. residing somewhat to the west of the continental landmass of eurasia). ;)

Pannonian
09-03-2007, 12:50
KukriKhan I put you in as your sober result mostly because that quarter was looking a bit lonely:beam:. If you'd prefer me to move it I will.

Judging by his posts, I very, very much doubt his views belong in that area of the graph. If you can get Panzerjager to take the test, he might end up there, or perhaps Navaros. But I'd expect Kukri to be somewhere in the centre of the graph.

naut
09-03-2007, 12:51
So Kukri what's on the agenda? Got any small nations to annex? ~;p :laugh4:

That's a huge disparity there though, seems like this is a board of Commies. Red revolution!

Evil_Maniac From Mars
09-03-2007, 13:32
I'd like to point out that on most tests I'm more right/authoritarian, or at least centrist. Some of the questions could have used a "sometimes" option.

KukriKhan
09-03-2007, 14:50
So Kukri what's on the agenda? Got any small nations to annex? ~;p :laugh4:


:laugh4: Glad you asked: If Kukri is in charge, I offer statehood to Afghanistan, Kurdistan, Shiastan (western Iraq), Sunnistan (eastern Iraq), Diego Garcia, Liberia, and Poland, with all the benefits and responsibilities that US statehood would entail.

As to that internet survey we took, many here have decried (rightfully, I think) the underlying assumptions made or implied by the questions. After seeing the "slant" to those questions, in self-defense I felt I needed to shun my actual position in the world (public servant, lower-middle class income, little to no influence on public policy beyond my neighborhood), and adopt the mindset of ruler - if I were Big Boss, how would I answer the questions?

The honest answers were "strongly" in favor of whatever measure insured my continued control. Hence the high, rightist score.

Frankly, I believe many of us would have answered the same way, except that we let our perceptions of ourselves, and our perceived positions in our societies, pre-dispose us to answering as somewhat-oppressed cogs in the wheels of a governmental machine of which we are only dimly aware.

I hope that made sense to somebody. :)

Kagemusha
09-03-2007, 15:12
Here is Kage:

Economic Left/Right: -2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.36


Left leaning moderate. Nothing new under the stars.:smash:

King Henry V
09-03-2007, 15:19
Time to show the Yanks that not everyone's a eurowiener:

Economic Left/Right: -1.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.26

What can I say, I read Hobbes' and Machiavelli when I was thirteen.

Conradus
09-03-2007, 15:21
Apparently I'm close to Ghandi and Mandela

Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15

Haudegen
09-03-2007, 16:32
I live in Germany

Crazed Rabbit
09-03-2007, 17:17
Did you check out the EU political compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/euchart)? And the US primaries compass (http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2007)?

But sure, you're correct, how else would the Europeian goverments be in that square while the people in the opposite one? :laugh4:

I think they screwed up, at least in regards to the US primaries - the dems should be at center or probably left of center. Look at Ice and SFTS - I'm not going to believe they are that much to the left of the dem candidates.

CR

Sasaki Kojiro
09-03-2007, 17:32
oops

Ice
09-03-2007, 17:41
Look at Ice and SFTS - I'm not going to believe they are that much to the left of the dem candidates.

CR

I'd sincerely hope not.

I have a hard enough time rationalizing to vote for any Democrat, but with the people the Republicans are fielding, I may actually.

Although I may just vote for Ron Paul just because I think the man is actually the most trust worthy of them all.

GeneralHankerchief
09-03-2007, 17:45
(US)

Wow, the only person more authoritarian than me is *gasp* Kukri! :shocked:

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.10

KukriKhan
09-03-2007, 18:00
(US)

Wow, the only person more authoritarian than me is *gasp* Kukri! :shocked:

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.10

Ha! Another member in touch with his inner dictator!:laugh4:

Geoffrey S
09-03-2007, 18:33
Watch it, not enough room here for more than one (potential) dictator!

HoreTore
09-03-2007, 18:35
Ha! Another member in touch with his inner dictator!:laugh4:

My inner dictator only tells me to go do the dishes...

Ironside
09-03-2007, 18:38
I think they screwed up, at least in regards to the US primaries - the dems should be at center or probably left of center. Look at Ice and SFTS - I'm not going to believe they are that much to the left of the dem candidates.

CR

Kukri might already have answered on that, being in charge (or wanting to become in charge) probably pulls people towards the upper right corner in this test.

Kralizec
09-03-2007, 18:54
Good job on those charts, Productivity.

Seems I'm the most right-wing European on this board :balloon2:
(until Fragony is back, anyway)

GeneralHankerchief
09-03-2007, 21:33
Watch it, not enough room here for more than one (potential) dictator!

Hmm... you're right. Time to go order the flunkies to arrest him on some kind of treason charge, preferably an assassination attempt.

I can just see my authoritarian rating raised 2 points. :laugh4:

-edit- Frankly, I'm surprised that most people are libertarian rather than authoritarian, coming from a war-gaming forum in which we play characters with (mostly) absolute power.

Geoffrey S
09-03-2007, 22:19
Good job on those charts, Productivity.

Seems I'm the most right-wing European on this board :balloon2:
(until Fragony is back, anyway)
Ja, glad you took over that honour from me!

Ice
09-03-2007, 22:21
Interesting, i took the test again and got this:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.46

Same on social aspects, but i changed about 1 point to the right on economic. Probably depends on my mood, but being barely right or barely left can't really make that much of a difference.

Boyar Son
09-04-2007, 01:25
What the hell is the upper left corner about?

Boring moderate?

GeneralHankerchief
09-04-2007, 01:47
That's Stalin's Corner, mate. Careful what you say about it, unless you fancy a trip to Siberia. :smash:

Boyar Son
09-04-2007, 02:05
That's Stalin's Corner, mate. Careful what you say about it, unless you fancy a trip to Siberia. :smash:

Cool, what about the rest?,to give a good generalization you know...

GeneralHankerchief
09-04-2007, 02:28
Upper left = Stalin. The State is powerful, the market limited.
Upper right = Thatcher/W/Mussolini, most right-wing leaders, etc. The State is powerful, the market open.
Lower left = Ghandi/Mandela/Dali Lama (the 'good guys'). The people have freedoms, the market is limited.
Lower right = Lemur. The people have freedoms, the market is open.

KukriKhan
09-04-2007, 03:05
Upper left = Stalin. The State is powerful, the market limited.
Upper right = Thatcher/W/Mussolini, most right-wing leaders, etc. The State is powerful, the market open.
Lower left = Ghandi/Mandela/Dali Lama (the 'good guys'). The people have freedoms, the market is limited.
Lower right = Lemur. The people have freedoms, the market is open.


Excellent thumbnailing there, GH.

Kralizec
09-04-2007, 13:11
Upper left = Stalin. The State is powerful, the market limited.
Upper right = Thatcher/W/Mussolini, most right-wing leaders, etc. The State is powerful, the market open.
Lower left = Ghandi/Mandela/Dali Lama (the 'good guys'). The people have freedoms, the market is limited.
Lower right = Lemur. The people have freedoms, the market is open.

Mussolini would probably be in the same quadrant as Thatcher (just like Hitler was in this graph (http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/axeswithnames.gif) but not far from the vertical axis. Unlike socialism, there are still private corporations in fascism but they're ultimately subservient to the state's economic plans.
Thatcher is considered a "neoliberal" politician: tax and spending cuts, little interference in the economy, etc.

FactionHeir
09-04-2007, 16:03
GH, your post implies that Lemur is some grand political leader :inquisitive:

GeneralHankerchief
09-04-2007, 18:29
@ Kralizec: True. I suppose I was comparing Mussolini to the other totalitarian leaders of the era when I put him in that position. I do think he allowed more market freedom than most.

@ FH: Well, there weren't that many social libertarian/free-market leaders to choose from. How many executive officers do you know that don't control social life or the economy? :tongue:

Lemur
09-05-2007, 05:53
GH, your post implies that Lemur is some grand political leader :inquisitive:
Just you watch, I will conquer the world with blood and iron. And then, um, I'll enshrine personal liberty, private property, and devolve all government to the local level, with only a loose federation on top. I guess it will be kind of an anti-climactic New World Order.

I'm quite thrilled to have an entire political/economic quadrant to myself, although I must point out the Prole, Kralizec and Productivity are in there with me. Any of you guys want to be Ministers?

Sasaki Kojiro
09-05-2007, 06:13
Just you watch, I will conquer the world with blood and iron. And then, um, I'll enshrine personal liberty, private property, and devolve all government to the local level, with only a loose federation on top. I guess it will be kind of an anti-climactic New World Order.

I'll be the first to call for your lynching.

econ21
09-07-2007, 08:29
Any body wants to try this again, there is a similar quiz at a site Xiahou linked to in the Fred Thomson thread:

http://www.speakout.com/VoteMatch/quiz.asp?quiz=Pres2008

https://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4804/s080040ke0.gif (https://imageshack.us)
https://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4804/s080040ke0.f4564bbbfd.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=508&i=s080040ke0.gif)

It is like the one used before, but the graph designer made up down (we'll shoot him later).

I got "libertarian-leaning left-liberal", which sounds interesting:
Personal Score 75%
Economic Score 41%

Closest US politician to my position is apparently John Kerry, which sounds about right.

The site is quite informative on the US presidential candidates - as well as the charts, it has quite detailed information on their positions on a variety of issues. I did not realise Hilary (left liberal) is positioned so far to the right of her husband (moderate populist). I mean I had heard her beliefs were more liberal, but thought she was running on a more centrist platform. Maybe the site reflects her past statements more than current stance?

TinCow
09-07-2007, 14:08
I try to avoid posting in the Backroom (for the sake of harmony, not lack of interest) but figured this was an interesting compilation of Orgah political orientations. Thus, my results:

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 0.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77

I'm somewhat surprised by my Economic result. I expected to be at least slightly right on that. Hitting a dead 0 makes me feel like I don't know what to take a stance on.

sapi
09-07-2007, 14:37
Same as TinCow, here - I normally wouldn't post, but the quiz was interesting.

I do wonder how they weight their results, though, as it's more neutral than I expected...


Economic Left/Right: 0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.90

JR-
09-07-2007, 15:15
Your Political Philosophy
The below is a way of thinking about your political philosophy by dividing your PoliticsMatch answers into "personal" and "economic" questions. It is only a theory - please take it with a grain of salt!

Personal Questions: Liberals and libertarians agree in choosing the less-government answers, while conservatives and populists agree in choosing the more-restrictions answers.

Economic Questions: Conservatives and libertarians agree in choosing the less-government answers, while liberals and populists agree in choosing the more-restrictions answers.


Your Score

You scored the following on the PoliticsMatch questions:

Personal Score 36%
Economic Score 70%


Where You Fit In

Where your Personal score meets your Economic score on the grid below is your political philosophy. Based on the above score, you are a Libertarian-Leaning Conservative .

Kralizec
09-07-2007, 15:39
I ended almost precisely in the center of that last test with:
Personal Score 49%
Economic Score 45%

However thist test is quite obviously US-centric.

Xiahou
09-07-2007, 16:34
Wow, that was a nice short quiz.
https://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5852/s020090dd9.gif
89%/20%

The only question I really didn't care for was the Immigration/Amnesty one. I didn't think it was fair to lump so many concepts into one question. Encourage (legal) immigration would've gotten a "support" answer. While amnesty/encourage illegal immigration would've gotten on "oppose". As it were, I just voted "oppose". Still, it seemed to line up pretty well with the previous test, considering how much shorter it was.

Although the quiz labels me "Hard-core conservative", I usually prefer a "Conservative with a slight libertarian lean" and I think the chart reflects that well enough. :beam: A more nuanced test would likely have me a bit higher on the personal scale.

Don Corleone
09-07-2007, 16:50
I got an 80% economic, 45% personal. Like Xiahou, I'm not happy with the way the questions merged several topics, unless they were scored that way as well. For example, answering that you're in favor of school vouchers appears to have been scored that if you supported it, it lowered your personal score which is hogwash. You're offering parents choices, not forcing them to endure the dysfunctional monopoly that is the American educational system where "Heather has Two Mommies" is required reading but kids don't know who George Washington was. I favor school vouchers because I believe in giving parents choices, but also because I'm opposed to government ordained monopolies (a social and an economic reason).

Lemur
09-07-2007, 17:20
Not thrilled with the way some of those questions were phrased. "Permit" prayer in public schools? What does that mean, exactly? As long as there are trigonometry tests, there will be prayer. Do they mean permit organized, teacher-led prayer? Or do they mean private group prayer? Kinda soft around the edges, that one.

Likewise "Abortion is a woman's right." Um, sometimes? No room for nuance on that issue as they phrase it. And many of the questions, frankly, depend on implementation. Privatize social security? Sounds good, but how do you intend to go about it?

This should surprise no-one: "Your political philosophy is Moderate Libertarian Conservative."


https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/s050_060.gif

Geoffrey S
09-07-2007, 17:39
60%/45% on mine. One I found quite screwy was whether I wanted to limit fuel emissions; yes, I do, but not necessarily for environmental reasons as the poll suggests. Rather to at least get off the worrying dependance of modern nations on fuel sources which certainly aren't going to be around for that much longer.

Seamus Fermanagh
09-07-2007, 17:43
4.38, -1.08 on first scaling

econ21
09-07-2007, 18:19
For example, answering that you're in favor of school vouchers appears to have been scored that if you supported it, it lowered your personal score which is hogwash.

I think that question - along with some others, like the one on gun control - is not used in constructing the score. I was a little surprised, as I thought it was a clear economic libertarian issue (as gun control would be a clear social libertarian one). But I was a little relieved, as I dithered on it and gave no opinion. If you dig around the site, there is very transparent information on exactly how each answer is expected to correspond to the four political philosophies identified.

BTW, the site's use of the term popularism is an interesting alernative label for what the first test would label authoritarianism.

Ironside
09-07-2007, 20:22
72% Personal
14% Economical
On the second test.

If you clicked on the question you could actually read on what the different stances meant Lemur.

A short America centered test gives it a bit rough edges, but it still shows you about the area that you would expect (I still feel awfully left on the economical scale on that scale though. I'm not that left :book: ) .

Evil_Maniac From Mars
09-07-2007, 22:23
https://img50.imageshack.us/img50/1793/s040040zy0.gif
Moderate Populist


This isn't too far off, and probably closer to my actual beliefs than the last test.

Seamus Fermanagh
09-08-2007, 02:02
Second Scaling:


Your Score

You scored the following on the PoliticsMatch questions:


Personal Score 32%
Economic Score 84%


Where You Fit In

Where your Personal score meets your Economic score on the grid below is your political philosophy. Based on the above score, you are a Libertarian-Leaning Conservative.

Productivity
09-08-2007, 04:51
I will update the charts, I just haven't had a chance in the last few days between work/studies. :book:

Csargo
09-08-2007, 05:14
Personal Score 36%
Economic Score 34%

Conradus
09-08-2007, 14:13
On the US test I scored 26% economic and 66% personal.

Lord Winter
09-09-2007, 04:50
Moderate leaning liberal. Scores also intersting since I'm not a socolist.

Personal Score 69%
Economic Score 35%

sapi
09-09-2007, 04:56
Personal Score 45%
Economic Score 49%

Far, far off the truth there :grin2:

Uesugi Kenshin
09-09-2007, 05:41
I got hard-core liberal, which I don't think is entirely accurate, but I think it lines up with my beliefs fairly well. On military issues I tend to be fairly moderate I think, but that is probably one of the few aberrations in my generally hard-core liberal beliefs.

Meneldil
09-09-2007, 08:23
First quizz :


Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.92

Second one :


Personal Score 58%
Economic Score 13%



http://www.ontheissues.org/quizeng/map/s060_010.gif

Surprisingly I'm far from being a left wing extremist, at least I thought so :D

naut
09-09-2007, 13:33
LMAO at the Second one:


Hard-Core Liberal

Personal Score 88%
Economic Score 8%

http://www.ontheissues.org/quizeng/map/s090_010.gif

HoreTore
09-09-2007, 19:13
First quizz :

Woho!! Another commie! Welcome to the club!

Louis VI the Fat
09-11-2007, 16:10
Economic Left/Right: -6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.77

http://www.ontheissues.org/quizeng/map/s070_040.gif

The second test corresponds better with where I would place myself on a political map: a moderate liberal.