Siege weapons

[Thaatu]

I asked these a while back, but got no response, so...


First question:

Aren't the siege artillery upkeeps a bit too much? For example a one talent stone projector costs 4500 mnai per season, while a Pentere fleet of 52 ships plus crew costs 4000 mnai per season.


Second question:

The weapon statistics.

3-span arrow projectors have eight projectors per unit, with attack of 13 and upkeep of 1900.
3-cubit arrow projectors have four projectors per unit, with attack of 21 and upkeep of 2500.
30-mina stone projectors have two projectors per unit, with the upkeep of 3200.
1-talent stone projectors have one projector per unit, with the upkeep of 4500.

So with the 3-span ones you'll get twice the amount of projectors than with 3-cubits, which more than makes up for the higher attack of 3-cubits. Even the 3-spans will kill everything they hit, so it's just a matter of accuracy, which is ultimately higher the more shooters you got. The same thing with stone projectors. Shouldn't the upkeep costs correlate with how many weapons there is to maintain?


Edit: Is there any chance for custom artillery models?

[Sassem]

you can lower the cost for yourself

in export_descr_unit.txt

I did to try them out but i don't like them that much only in seige battle it's ok

[geala]

I had the same concerns like you, Thaatu. With the addition that I was annoyed by the gross inaccuracy of the bolt katapeltai which were in fact very accurate weapons.

I made them a lot more expensive to buy but lowered the seasonal costs (after they were built the maintainance costs of artillery pieces were surely lower than that of ships), gave them greater reach and more attack, more ammunition (the lazy guys in the background fetch the bolts from the train), and made them very accurate against units. Now at least the katapeltai are worth to be given a slot in my high end professional armies. Slingers and archers in prolonged battles no longer achieve the multitude of kills compared to my artillery like before.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Yeah, they are really expensive, with little return.

I never use the 1-talent one because it is inferior to the 30-mina one, since it is only slightly stronger, but half the fire rate and ammo amount (since the 30-mina have two launchers).

As to this part:

Edit: Is there any chance for custom artillery models?
Though possible, making custom artillery is a very difficult task. Nobody on the EB team has any experience making them, so no work has been done. It is a wish of the team to redo all of the artillery, though.

[abou]

One thing about artillery is that if you can afford them they are great to have. With two units of them I conquered central and southern Italy in about five turns as the Koinon. In fact, I took Arpi and Capua in the same turn with the same army.:beam:

[geala]

I see sieges as a good way to beat enemy reinforcements (which come with guarantee) and additionally sack the city. So I really never use siege engines or siege artillery. The smaller artillery pieces are a good help in field battles however, esp. if I have to attack.

[Thaatu]

What goes in to the upkeep of artillery projectors? I'd imagine a bunch of carpenters, a few designers, material costs, shelters, payment and upkeep of the crews... What else?

[bovi]

Laborers to set up/dismantle the machinery, carriages and a couple of sets of horses/oxen to drag the components, tools and spare parts... That's what I can think of.

[Ludens]

Though possible, making custom artillery is a very difficult task. Nobody on the EB team has any experience making them, so no work has been done.
What about this screenshot (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=45230) then?
:saint:

[GodEmperorLeto]

Umm, yeah, Demetrius the Besieger most definitely, Ludens, like the guy in that thread said.

I was also thinking about how one would fit the helepolis into the game, but it's prettywell impossible, and from what I remember, it failed anyway.

Anyway, as for assembly of these machines, many of them were constructed on-site. But the complicated engines that required mathematics to utilize were a little expensive, especially since the engineer had to be pretty good with numbercraft. And if you try to do math with an abacus and roman numerals (i.e. not using modern handwriting math paradigms) you realize really fast how hard it is. Those ancient mathematicians must have been really geniuses to be able to do that stuff without zeros and decimal placement. That guy's gotta cost a pretty penny to employ.

Otherwise, you are going to have a crew who is going to be winging it--quite literally. Without any sort of decent mathematician/engineer, most siege weapons are going to be fired without any sort of accuracy whatsoever, and the crew is going to take days to be able to get the machine to aim properly. Some of these engines take several minutes to re-arm. Medieval ones, like trebuchets, could take hours, but they used counterweights, and weren't tortion-powered like onagers.

I can see these engines costing a lot of money, but I'd prefer to see them set up in batteries, then, five or six to a unit, if they are going to cost as much as a trireme fleet.

[hoom]

I'd think a fair bit of cost would also go into the maintenance of the sinew springs.

[geala]

Nevertheless the maintenance costs are to high. Sinews were not such a big problem in an agricultural economy. Catapults were used in abundance in the Hellenistic times, it should not be such an exception to have it.

[snevets]

Yeah, they are really expensive, with little return.

I never use the 1-talent one because it is inferior to the 30-mina one, since it is only slightly stronger, but half the fire rate and ammo amount (since the 30-mina have two launchers).

As to this part:

Though possible, making custom artillery is a very difficult task. Nobody on the EB team has any experience making them, so no work has been done. It is a wish of the team to redo all of the artillery, though.
Don't make me have to get in on that project too...

[glouch]

i never use siege weapons. one, because they are too expensive, with usually only one purpose that it can effectively do: pulverize walls. two, because when you lay siege to a city, somehow reinforment armies are attracted to you. saves a lot of time and effort because u wont have to hunt them down, plus you'll get a sweet heroic victory. :)

[Cash Staks]

i never use siege weapons. one, because they are too expensive, with usually only one purpose that it can effectively do: pulverize walls. two, because when you lay siege to a city, somehow reinforment armies are attracted to you. saves a lot of time and effort because u wont have to hunt them down, plus you'll get a sweet heroic victory. :)

I'm just far too lazy to build them. Usually I just build a few rams, maybe some ladders or towers if they have stone walls, and very rarely sapping points, and hope for the best. Or I just starve them out and let them attack. Guess I just never got into the catapult thing. :inquisitive: