Kingdoms: General - Kingdoms SecuRom discussion - forum rules only [Archive] - Page 2

Ramses II CP

09-15-2007, 21:22

To try to answer your question, Sinan, there are no current corporate exploits or known mass vulnerabilities in the version of SecuRom that is installed with Kingdoms. About 90% of the people who've bought Kingdoms seem to like it, and reviews are almost all positive. The risk seems negligible next to the reward, but...

1. You won't be able to uninstall SecuRom. No, not ever, not unless Sega decides to let you do it or you wipe your HD (Or some hacker comes up with a, no doubt, very technical and difficult procedure to eliminate it). No one has confirmed or denied that Sega could or could not update the SecuRom software remotely to incorporate additional features without your knowledge or permission, but that very possibility is one that the SecuRom people brag about on their website.

2. You'll be supporting a company (SecuRom) that is actively working to incorporate spyware into copyright protection schemes and thus into games.

3. It's obvious from an end user perspective that this copyright protection scheme is no more effective than older methods, just more invasive and burdensome for the purchaser.

This is an absurd and possibly offensive comparison, but Kingdoms is like a beautiful woman with herpes. You'll have a great time with her for awhile, but she's leaving something nasty behind you'll have for the rest of your (computer's) life even after you dump her.

I'm not buying it until the SecuRom issue is solved, and depending on how it's handled I may not buy it at all. There are a lot of good, clean games on the market right now competing for my dollar.

:egypt:

Gaius Terentius Varro

09-15-2007, 21:56

The problem for me is that that securom is a backdoor to my computer which someone can use to rob me and i won't be able to see it coming since securom disables Process explorer-yes you guessed it to hide securom

http://forum.sysinternals.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=11000

Owen

09-15-2007, 22:59

I'm glad I found this thread. I was thinking about ordering Kingdoms, but I won't be now. Many thanks to all who've explained the ins and outs of the SecureRom installation here.

Didz

09-16-2007, 09:18

For my part....I have been assured by the techie guy that looks after my PC's that if I wanted SecuRom removed he has a tool that will do it. But that 'so far' nobody he knows has reported having any major issues with the software on their system, and so, he thinks that its benign.

The main storm of protest seems to focus upon Bioshock for which SecuRom has been used to impose a limit on re-installations. The customer was not made aware of this condition prior to purchase and I suspect that eventually this will result in a court case to test the validity of the Securom's presence. If so, we ought to get some clarification of our legal position.

Shahed

09-16-2007, 09:38

Thanks for the replies!

I think I get it. Basically Securom will prevent you from launching pirated games or launching games without the CD. The latter case people often do with original purchased games just to save the hassle of finding the CD every time you want to play. Securom will also send data about the checks made to your system to the parent company.

Will it prevent you from having drive emulators installed as well ?

Incongruous

09-16-2007, 10:04

Exactly...

Well to be fair the insertion of SecuRom on the kingdoms CD would not have been CA's decision it was probably made by Sega.

Also as far as we know the option used is merely the basic CD encryption system, nobody has any evidence that it includes any of the value-added features offered by Sony. In fact, one of my biggest issues with this action by Sega is that it has been done in secret without disclodure to the customer and therefore the customer has not been given the option to make an informed decision on whether to accept the conditions imposed by Sega on the use of their software. I think if companies are going to use SecuRom or similar products then it should be their legal duty to inform the customer, before purchase, that their product includes invasive software which could compromise their privacy and system security.

The other thing we don't know, because it isn't explained to non-customers on the SecuRom site, is whether the basic SecuRom installation can be upgraded insitu. It would certainly make good marketing sense if this were the case...in other words....if the basic encryption programme could be used as a trojan horse to facilitate the download of other options like n-CD or Web-Link options at a later date when either Sega or another customer decided they wished to purchase the option. Also given the fact that Sony are offering to license out the SecuRom toolkit to their customers so that they can produce their own enhancements the ability to download such features onto pre-'infacted' PC's would make sense.
The fact that it was secret is why I'm pissed.
It's what they can do without my knowledge.

WhiskeyGhost

09-16-2007, 17:06

I've been reading this topic a little, and i find that having the original CD can sometimes be a burden, ever since i wore out my old C&C:Red Alert CD thus making it impossible for me to play as Soviets (i had no idea there were such things as cracks in those days)

I think I get it. Basically Securom will prevent you from launching pirated games or launching games without the CD. The latter case people often do with original purchased games just to save the hassle of finding the CD every time you want to play. Securom will also send data about the checks made to your system to the parent company.

Will it prevent you from having drive emulators installed as well ?

the highlighted part is what makes me most nervous. I don't want anyone to be keeping tabs on me without my knowledge. If i wanted someone to stalk me, i'd let that creepy guy with the binoculars keep gazing into my windows :sweatdrop:

Also, i'm not too computer savvy myself, but whats to stop someone from making some sort of virus to mod said program and rather then it send system checks to the company, it sends every password i input into my computer to some guy who proceeds to empty out every $ he can find in my name right into his wallet? (yes, i'm paranoid, but its better then being completely ignorant when your on unfamiliar ground)

edit: Oh, and also, if you go to a restaurant and order a steak dinner, wouldn't it make you mad to find out that they add in a hotdog to the meal? If it came with something i didn't want, at least tell me before you give it to me (sorry, i'm bad at metaphors)

Shahed

09-16-2007, 17:12

I should point out; I wrote "I think I get it." That does'nt mean I DO get it. I was hoping someone would say True ! or False !

Anyway that's what I gathered from reading through their website. I don't like that idea either and IMO if you bought the game you should be able to have a way to run it without the CD. I'm 9000 kms from home right now why on earth would I want to pack yet another item into my already 20kilo bag ? I'd want to just boot my laptop and play without the frekin CD.

antisocialmunky

09-17-2007, 01:16

Well, the Bioshock guys said it was just mostly for the release and not for the lifetime of the product(as you make the most $$$ during the first couple months) and would later release a tool to remove securom from Bioshock. The Securom on Kingdoms isn't a big deal. Its like Safedisk with 200% more lame.

Edit- Atleast this is what I hear floating around.

Rozanov

09-17-2007, 10:56

Have a proper bought from amazon version of Kingdoms.

AVg anti-rootkit hasn't picked up the secuROm thing yet.

However I've already had one instance when the DVD drive failed to read the DVD properly and I got a snotty message from sceuROM.

So what's the position if our original DVD becomes unreadable - can't see SEGA sending us a replacement - and will be able to install a replacement bought second hand?

Ulstan

09-17-2007, 17:01

I simply will not install anything on my computer that I cannot later uninstall if I so desire.

Especially not a trojan horse information collecting program that tries to sneak it's way on without my knowing, and causes conflicts with other programs I use.

Whacker

09-17-2007, 17:23

A couple of points I'd like to throw in just for discussion's sake.

1. Regarding "erasing" files. Simply sending a file to the trash bin in Windows and then emptying it will not actually erase the file. Unless the system re-allocates the space the file was in, it will remain readable. Hence why you often see those "undelete" programs that can recover data. Also, even if you reformat your drive when you reinstall windows, the data is still there because the WinXP until does not do a 'zero-fill' and rewrite everything. Indeed I've reinstalled WinXP before on an old drive and been able to recover data from the previous installation. The best way to ensure data erasure is to wipe it using a utility designed to do so, which basically overwrites the sections on the drive the file existed on several times with random data strings. Even then, it's not 100% perfect, hence why professionals can often recover things that have even been written over before.

No, since I scan for rootkits every 2 weeks, and don't have any on my pc.

You wouldn't be able to detect them anyway, if you are scanning within your installed OS (which I'm guessing is Windows). Rootkits hook the kernel and completely hide themselves from any detection methods from inside the OS, including hiding their system calls and the actual files themselves. Things such as Sysinternal's Autoruns can only do so much, and do not show any symptoms of the current batch of rootkits which are pretty malicious. The only way to detect them reliably is to use bootable cds that run specialized detection software (like some of the forensics specialized linux distros), or stick the drive in another PC that doesn't boot from it and run forensics that way. I had a rootkit infection last year that was incredibly nasty, and it took me awhile to finally cleanse my system before I could back everything up before I reinstalled. THAT was nasty.

If you already knew that, great, then this is more for other's benefits.

:balloon2:

Disclaimer - My job is IT security which includes forensics.

Shahed

09-17-2007, 17:33

Whacker you've installed Kingdoms right ?

Gaius Terentius Varro

09-17-2007, 17:36

we all did despite the outrage methinks

Whacker

09-17-2007, 18:09

Whacker you've installed Kingdoms right ?

Sure haven't my friend, not planning on buying Kingdoms or any future TW titles at the time being either.

Slug For A Butt

09-17-2007, 18:16

Me thinks I'm glad I made the decision to never buy another TW game again until it hits the bargain buckets (after the M2TW debacle).
Looks like it has paid off, because now I can see how this pans out without being a guinea pig. :yes:

Gaius Terentius Varro

09-17-2007, 18:45

I am a pre-order victim however i installed it on my offline rig so there is damage control

Fritz

09-17-2007, 19:02

My whiny 2-cents: just commenting in the hopes that CA/SEGA will respond to this matter if enough paying customers bitch about it. Having been burned for my early purchase of M2TW and it's retarded AI (I'm going bargain bin from now on) I have bought my last TW game until CA/SEGA addresses SecuRom.

Someone from CA please speak up.

The silence is deafening.

Slug For A Butt

09-17-2007, 20:00

I'm sure Sega/CA are aware that most people are ignorant of SecuRom, either it's presence or potential. I fell into this category and would have bought this game except for my new found lack of alliegance to CA.
I feel quite lucky that the side effect of my falling out of love with the TW experience has had the side effect of me being able to make a more long term educated decision on potential spyware.
But make no mistake, most people that buy the game will have pestered their parents for it and know little and care even less about things like this. This is the market that is being aimed at and their money is just as good as ours. and probably more plentiful.
It is a business after all.

SirGrotius

09-17-2007, 22:46

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're so obsessed with SecuRom why don't you just not buy the game and search the sky for UFOs instead

SpencerH

09-17-2007, 23:17

A couple of points I'd like to throw in just for discussion's sake.

1. Regarding "erasing" files. Simply sending a file to the trash bin in Windows and then emptying it will not actually erase the file. Unless the system re-allocates the space the file was in, it will remain readable. Hence why you often see those "undelete" programs that can recover data. Also, even if you reformat your drive when you reinstall windows, the data is still there because the WinXP until does not do a 'zero-fill' and rewrite everything. Indeed I've reinstalled WinXP before on an old drive and been able to recover data from the previous installation. The best way to ensure data erasure is to wipe it using a utility designed to do so, which basically overwrites the sections on the drive the file existed on several times with random data strings. Even then, it's not 100% perfect, hence why professionals can often recover things that have even been written over before.

Very interesting post. I thought that the full format and partition with the western digital-type installation disks (that often come with the HD's and have a DOS OS on the disk) wiped the HD but I guess not so.

Based on what you've said, it means that unless someone physically destroys a HD it's still a security risk (from a company perspective). What about passing the HD through an electromagnet? I ask because I have to use personal patient data in my work so I like to be aware of the risks.

Sorry about the threadjack

SpencerH

09-17-2007, 23:36

I don't see what the big deal is. If you're so obsessed with SecuRom why don't you just not buy the game and search the sky for UFOs instead

You dont see what the big deal is? Hmmm?

Many of us spend a great deal of time, effort, and money trying not to have our identities stolen by some SOB. Just yesterday I looked at paying a company $10/month to secure my ID. MS and the companies have spent billions of dollars trying to make the OS's more secure. But SEGA, in their arrogance, have decided that they will install this rubbish with a game! The irony is that these types of programs dont prevent game piracy but may enable ID theft.

Whacker

09-18-2007, 00:01

Very interesting post. I thought that the full format and partition with the western digital-type installation disks (that often come with the HD's and have a DOS OS on the disk) wiped the HD but I guess not so.

Based on what you've said, it means that unless someone physically destroys a HD it's still a security risk (from a company perspective). What about passing the HD through an electromagnet? I ask because I have to use personal patient data in my work so I like to be aware of the risks.

Sorry about the threadjack

No worries mate, this may be slightly offtopic but it's relevant to the discussion, seeing how this would relate to people's desires to ensure that data they no longer want on their computers is fully erased and destroyed.

First off, when you format a drive these days, you really aren't doing what's called a "low level format", where your software will physically go through and set up a drive's MBT and physically allocate clusters. Current 'formatting', in terms of what happens when you go through the Windows 2k/XP install process, is what's called a "reinitialization". Basically the software goes in and based on how you set up the drive, set up partitions, the MBT, and "zero" out all of the clusters by setting all files to deleted. Note this is not the same thing as a "zero-fill", in which the software literally goes through every byte on the drive and sets it as a 0 bit. Hence this is why even if you format your drive 100 times, someone can still go back in and possibly recover a good deal of data. Professional security firms and the government also have the technology available to physically dismantle the drive and to levels of recovery that are much, much deeper, depending on residual data. I don't have the exact details, but it's amazing what they can recover. This is why the US gov/mil have military spec requirements for erasing data. Google for this and you'll see what I'm talking about, the spec is freely available and there are numerous shareware and freeware programs out there that will perform these functions if you want. The key here in terms of the game as others have pointed out is actually deleting the offending DRM files off of one's system, which is another problem entirely.

As for the magnet issue, does it work? The answer is yes and no. Yes, it'll work on most removable magnetic media, such as floppy disks, old Zip disks, and the like. It will NOT work on a hard drive, but just for safety's sake and your own sanity, I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you have a spare pc, and HDD you don't want anymore, and time to kill. You can even run neomydium (sp?) magnets across the outer casing of an HDD, and it won't have any or minimal impact on the data inside, because the outer casing shields the platters inside. If you want to have some fun, when your next HDD fails, take it apart. Inside you'll find some of those neomydium magnets which are VERY strong, and fun to play with, just don't get your fingers pinched because they will cause nasty blood blisters.

Cheers!

Edit - The only surefire way (http://driveslag.eecue.com/) to ensure data destruction!

Stig

09-18-2007, 00:05

Well to me it seems like this whole SecuRom thing has become more of a question of principle than anything else. At least, I haven't heard of any problems with it, and haven't experienced any myself.

:balloon2:
It is simply a matter of principle. Some people need things to complain about, simple as that.

Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't
Why not?
Because they are the professionals

This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).

Whacker

09-18-2007, 00:22

It is simply a matter of principle. Some people need things to complain about, simple as that.

Or it's a matter of ignorance, in terms of what people are putting on their system, or understanding what the software they are installing is really doing to their computers.

Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't

And you never will, you can quote me on this. They may mention a thing or two in passing if it's really bad or obnoxious, or if they had problems with installing the game, but the odds are high it'll get edited out before it's published, because their salaries are paid for by the people advertising the games they are reviewing. You can also bet that no matter how bad of shape they are in or how rushed/shallow/lame, Hellgate London, Fallout 3, and Halo 3 are going to get at least 9.0 reviews on IGN and Gamespot when they are released, simply because of the dollars and hype that the publishers are throwing behind them and nothing else.

Why not?
Because they are the professionals

Professionals in terms of their job, yes. Professionals in terms of experience, not a chance. These people are simply gamers, some of who are not very bright at all, whose job is to write up their experiences on the games they play. They are no more observant than you or I, no more "experienced" than anyone who's been gaming for a few years. They simply get paid to play a game and write an article on it, just like we did in grade school with books.

This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).

No, this is people who get pissed because they realize what's happening to their systems, what they're being required to do or information they're required to provide in order to enjoy their goods. Dismissing it casually as you have is simply flaming and bordering on trolling. I for one refuse to purchase games that have DRM which requires me to "ask permission" any time I want to install and enjoy what I've rightfully purchased.

Stig

09-18-2007, 00:31

You are a fine example m8
Of the million buyers of a game 25 complain, so tell me, how big exactly is the problem? Not big hey

And I'm not ignorant, I just don't care. If this could kill my PC CA wouldn't have used it, they're not stupid.

As I said, about 1 in 50,000 buyers has a problem with this :drama3:

Whacker

09-18-2007, 00:40

Nice statistics there, thanks for putting exactly how big this 'problem' is in perspective for all of us. It's pretty obvious at this point that you've got nothing to contribute to this thread, so why not go post elsewhere instead of trying to derail this one.

:cake:

TB666

09-18-2007, 01:10

This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).
Indeed.
Mount & Blade installs things without you knowing and sometimes requires you to turn off your anti-virus software and yet people are fine with that but when SEGA does it then it's the end of the world.
But yeah it has been blown out of proportion a bit.
Sure it's the principal of the matter, we would love to have some control over what we install.
But I rather have Securom which provides SEGA with some comfort on my computer then Starforce which does damage on my computer.

Gaius Terentius Varro

09-18-2007, 01:14

That game still not finished is it?

TB666

09-18-2007, 01:24

That game still not finished is it?
M&B ??
Not that I know off.

All that I know is that I got something called Mount&bladekeys in my reg despite I uninstalled it and I can't get rid of that entry.

Fritz

09-18-2007, 02:06

Originally Posted by Stig
And I'm not ignorant, I just don't care.
You proved the first part of this statement false by your other comments.

Just wondering... is the act of complaining about people complaining indicative of someone who is just looking for something to complain about, a hypocrite, or both?

Ramses II CP

09-18-2007, 02:11

Stig: "If this could kill my PC CA wouldn't have used it, they're not stupid."

Educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal

You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.

Big companies are stupid, and they do this all the time precisely because only a few people care enough about it to protest it. Yes, it's true, out of millions of customers only a few thousand get burned and you're welcome to roll the dice with your box, but I work on my computers and a .1% chance is still too high in my book.

Good luck. I sincerely hope you don't take a fall because you wouldn't take a stand.

:egypt:

Stig

09-18-2007, 08:39

You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.
Yeah so

Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?

Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use, CA isn't going to remove it because 25 kids don't like it.

DesertEagle

09-18-2007, 15:18

Didn't see this in the few pages I read, so I don't know if it had been metioned or not, but excessively draconian copy protection IS a major consumer issue. As WAS said in what I read, there is no copy protection out there that is unbeatable. Most games are available the illegal way quickly after release, usually within a week or two. By putting draconian copy protection on software, the only thing that is actually accomplished is hurting those of us who legitimately and legally buy said software.

I believe there was a class action lawsuit against Ubisoft over the StarForce drm software installed with silent hunter 3 (among others), citing failure to properly disclose the fact and implications of StarForce, along with the violation of 17 USC 117(a)(2) preventing a user from playing the game using a legitimate backup copy.

Link to Full Lawsuit (http://eplaw.us/sf/UbisoftComplaint032406.pdf)

Apparently their EULA was found wanting by the court.

Ubisoft was forced by consumer pressure, prior to and culminating in the 5 million dollar lawsuit to change their copy protection.

Realistically, as much as I believe companies should go back to reasonable or no copy protection, due to potential issues with the draconian measures which have negative sideeffects on at least some consumers, while not even being successful at it's intended purpose of stopping hackers/crackers - I'm realistic enough to know that isn't going to happen anytime soon..

So Stig - companies can be brought around by consumer pressure. Remember - not all gamers are kids; consumers can and DO make a difference.

Fritz

09-18-2007, 17:33

Quote: You know who owns SecuRom? Sony.

Yeah so
I know you are but what am I! Neener, neener, neener!

Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?
Please do tell, I'm on the edge of my seat!

Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use...
I beg to differ... it presented a forum for you to display your infinite wisdom.

Ramses II CP

09-18-2007, 17:42

Yeah so

Do you guys even know what Microsoft puts on your computer to start with?

Seriously this thread is done with and has never had a use, CA isn't going to remove it because 25 kids don't like it.

'So' Sony has used copy protection that did, in fact, kill people's computers, clearly refuting your previous claim. I'm well aware of what MS puts on my computers, but I suspect from the lack of substantive points from you that you are not.

As I said, good luck. This time, from what little information we have, it looks like SecuRom isn't hurting anyone yet, but it took months to catch Sony's prior mistake and years to correct it.

:egypt:

grapedog

09-18-2007, 17:42

Go go Spence...I would love to see Ubisoft pay out the nose for the Starforce debacle.

CA may not be mostly to blame for this mess with Secu-rom, but they are partly to blame.

The game industry as a whole, needs some serious work. From crappy DRM/Security measures, to the ESRB rating system and places like Wal-Mart selling movies like Showgirls and games like Gears of War, but not stalking Manhunt...the whole industry is riddled with inconsistancies and the consumer is taken advantage of at every turn.

Shahed

09-18-2007, 18:05

....

Thanks bro, that was a very informative post/s. So your recommendation is not to install it, if I understand correctly ?

I want to buy/play Kingdoms but I don't want any Securom on my PC.

Whacker

09-18-2007, 19:00

Thanks bro, that was a very informative post/s. So your recommendation is not to install it, if I understand correctly ?

I want to buy/play Kingdoms but I don't want any Securom on my PC.

That is correct, if you don't want Securom on your PC, don't get/install Kingdoms. It may be possible to install the game and remove the DRM, but this is getting into territory that's forbidden to discuss by Org policy, and without researching I wouldn't know how to do it exactly.

Even in spite of the issues that the Kingdoms variant of Securom raises, the other thing to consider is that Securom is known to cause problems with other game copy protection mechanisms, and can cause certain discs using them to become unreadable by your drives. I don't have the link handy to those findings, if folks are curious they can google for it. So buyer beware, if you play other games, Securom may cause problems.

Shahed

09-18-2007, 19:06

Thanks.

Man, this is teh l33t sux0rship.

Privateerkev

09-18-2007, 20:11

Guys,

I have read through this whole thread and found it to be very interesting and highly informative. But, I am concerned that if we get into a flame war, then the mods are going to shut this thread down. This thread has served the useful purpose of educating us on this issue and providing a forum for healthy debate. I'd hate to see it locked. :no:

TinCow

09-18-2007, 20:13

It is simply a matter of principle. Some people need things to complain about, simple as that.

Have you seen game reviewers talking about this "problem"?
I haven't
Why not?
Because they are the professionals

This is all blown up, mostlikely by either frustrated hackers who didn't manage to get this game illegally or by people who want something to complain about because they don't like CA (believe me, there are enough of those).

First off, I love CA and the TW games. I'm not looking for anything to complain about. That said, I think the SecuROM issue is important.

You are entirely correct that it is a matter of principle. In reality, SecuROM as it exists today is unlikely to cause many problems on peoples' computers, unless you're talking about Bioshock (and those complaints I can verify from first-hand experience). Kingdoms will probably not cause any noticeable problems for anyone on this forum.

However, that does not mean that it is something that we shouldn't be concerned about. SecuROM is one of the foremost representatives of a seriously troublesome trend in the software industry. Many publishers believe that copyright laws have not provided sufficient protection for their products against software piracy. In response, they have begun using increasingly draconian copy protection systems to prevent the piracy from occurring in the first place.

What people need to understand is that the copy protection systems that have begun to emerge over the last few years are increasingly venturing into illegal territory. In an effort to prevent copyright violations of their own software, they are starting to infringe on the rights of the consumers themselves. This is essentially a digital version of vigilante justice, and something to be discouraged. SecuROM is not so much a problem in and of itself, as much as it is a representative of a growing trend that poses a very real and dramatic threat to the general public.

Software publishers needs to be told that they simply cannot resort to these kinds of actions as the proper means to protect their own property. Often times 'slippery slope' arguments are derided for the fallacious reliance upon a trend that does not emerge. That is not the case here. The trend exists, is well known, and it is increasing in severity exponentially. With the emergence of systems like Starforce and SecuROM, we are now facing a future where serious issues, like those encountered in Bioshock, will become commonplace. In order to prevent this, we must confront the issue now. If we wait until it is wide-spread, the damage will already have been done.

Personally, I believe that it will take something on the order of a class action lawsuit to bring about this change. I am surprised that one has not already been filed regarding the Bioshock issues, as I firmly believe that has legitimate grounds. Until then, the best we can do is to bring the matter to the public eye and increase awareness of the very real danger these systems pose to the future of consumer rights in the digital world.

DesertEagle

09-18-2007, 20:51

Software publishers needs to be told that they simply cannot resort to these kinds of actions as the proper means to protect their own property. Often times 'slippery slope' arguments are derided for the fallacious reliance upon a trend that does not emerge. That is not the case here. The trend exists, is well known, and it is increasing in severity exponentially. With the emergence of systems like Starforce and SecuROM, we are now facing a future where serious issues, like those encountered in Bioshock, will become commonplace. In order to prevent this, we must confront the issue now. If we wait until it is wide-spread, the damage will already have been done.

Personally, I believe that it will take something on the order of a class action lawsuit to bring about this change. I am surprised that one has not already been filed regarding the Bioshock issues, as I firmly believe that has legitimate grounds. Until then, the best we can do is to bring the matter to the public eye and increase awareness of the very real danger these systems pose to the future of consumer rights in the digital world.

I agree wholeheartedly. Quoth Ben Franklin - Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security.

The class action lawsuit referenced in my above post paved the way.

Also note Stardock, doing it a bit different from most companies:

Linky (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20060313/0135244.shtml)

Video Game Company That Does Everything "Wrong" Gets It Right
from the good-work dept
tk writes in to point out that video game company Stardock did everything "wrong" according to many who try to sell video games: "they use word of mouth marketing, has no copy protection (the serial is needed for updates) with a (relatively) cheap price and they listen to what users want." Despite all of these "mistakes," however, the results suggest that such an approach worked. As tk notes, "they have managed to gain the top spot in Walmart. Best Buy, EB, and Gamestop are ordering stocks above their sell-in orders." The source of this info is the company itself on their own forums, so some may question the accuracy of it. It would be nice to get confirmation (or proof that this is incorrect). There is also an interesting follow up to this story. Since the company decided not to use copy protection, some are claiming that they want the game to be "pirated." It also apparently upset employees of a Starforce, a company who doesn't exactly have the best reputation when it comes to providing copy protection for video games. Stardock is now accusing Starforce of pointing people to cracked copies, in an effort to hurt the software provider for not using copy protection. As the company itself points out: "Our software gets pirated. We don't like it but piracy is a fact of life. The question isn't about eliminating it, it's about reducing it and trying to make sure that people who would buy your product buy it instead of steal it. Our primary weapon to fight piracy is through rewarding customers through convenient, frequent, free updates. If you make it easy for users to buy and make full use of your product or service legitimately then we believe that you'll gain more users from that convenience than you'll lose from piracy."

foop

09-20-2007, 13:23

Great thread, folks.

I was going to get Kingdoms, but having been messed around by Bioshock I'm having second thoughts.

I know Kingdoms doesn't have the install-count nonsense that Bioshock does, but I'm still very unhappy with SecureROM. It was a great game, but in order to play it I had to abandon any pretence at system security. Want an admin account to install the game and a normal user account to play it? Tough, that counts as two installs. And if you just suffered a dead hard disk, using up one of the installs they graciously permitted you to have when you shelled out hard cash for the game, you're shafted.

It's like the "You wouldn't steal a car... Movie piracy is theft" adverts that they kept putting at the start of DVDs. You can't skip them, so that's 30 seconds of your life wasted when you watch the DVD. And they're pointless because I've just bought the bloody thing. If I'd pirated the movie, I wouldn't have to watch the damn annoying advert. What a great way to annoy your paying customers and have no effect on the pirates.

Grumble, grumble. Bring back the ZX Spectru, Elite and the Lenslok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenslok).

Swiss Halberd Pike Landsknecht

09-20-2007, 16:02

Great thread, folks.

It's like the "You wouldn't steal a car... Movie piracy is theft" adverts that they kept putting at the start of DVDs. You can't skip them, so that's 30 seconds of your life wasted when you watch the DVD. And they're pointless because I've just bought the bloody thing. If I'd pirated the movie, I wouldn't have to watch the damn annoying advert. What a great way to annoy your paying customers and have no effect on the pirates.

haha

Not sure if you watch 'The IT Crowd' on Channel 4, but last week was hilarious in the beginning to do with that:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=MTbX1aMajow

Daveybaby

09-20-2007, 16:28

@TinCow: Spot on post. Pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter exactly.

Didz

09-21-2007, 08:43

@TinCow Likewise. Nicely put. If we keep quiet now things will only get worse.

stuartdm

09-21-2007, 09:42

Years ago I bought a computer game (International Cricket Captain) which would not work on my PC due to copy protection issues, I contacted the company and they sent me a disc without the copy protection on, free of charge.

I bet that wouldn't happen these days, although they must have had a fair number of problems to do it in the first place.

blackbob

09-21-2007, 21:00

Just seen a review of Bioshock in Micro Mart a UK weekly computer mag it scored a zero with the quote "The best game you will ever see get a zero" solely on the basis of the copy protection system

alpaca

09-22-2007, 11:23

A few days late but as a physicist I just can't resist to comment on magnetic fields :laugh4:

If you want to wipe your HDD, even dismantling it and denting or whatever seriously won't do the trick. Most of the data will still be available.
Even if you overwrite it with pseudo-random series of data for a few times, a lot of traces can still be found. This has to do with the fact that the magnetization used to store your data is not completely gone.

There is a way to erase your data (I think), which is completely demagnetizing the drive. To do this you apply a fairly strong slowly alternating field and then gradually weaken it. After some minutes (or hours depending on how paranoid you are) you'll have very few traces of magnetization left and those will be pretty random because of the frequent change in the direction of magnetization of the "elemental" magnets.
The key point is doing it slowly because you're walking along a curve called "hysteresis loop" and you want to give the magnetic moments enough time to change direction before lowering the field strength.

sapi

09-23-2007, 11:23

Zenicetus

09-23-2007, 18:53

Would be quicker to chuck it into an incinerator and melt the damn thing, wouldn't it? :grin2:

Yep. I used to use the hammer method on HD's when retiring old computers, but now I use heat, since (as I understand it), it's a more reliable method if you really want to destroy the data (and the drive). Don't do it in a kitchen oven though, unless you like breathing fumes from plastic. I just chuck the drive in our outdoor patio grill after an evening's barbecue, and close the lid. I don't know exactly what the threshold temperature is for a total wipe, but looking at what comes out of the grill the next morning, I'm pretty sure nobody will ever recover anything from that charred brick.

And that's one way to get rid of SecureRom. :beam:

gardibolt

09-24-2007, 19:45

Considering how quickly Securom was hacked, there are obviously a fair number of folks with detailed working knowledge of it and its flaws. All it takes for one of those folks to have malevolent intent and you've given them a free backdoor into your computer, your passwords, banking information etc. It may not have been reported yet, but Securom and Sony are hated nearly as much as Microsoft, which means as far as I'm concerned it's inevitable.

:oops:

Mori Gabriel Syme

09-24-2007, 22:03

Wow, I'm glad I swung by here today. I would have been completely unaware of SecuRom being included in the expansion. Looks like I won't be buying it now.

Between this and BioShock, SecuRom has saved me a good bit of money.

Gray Beard

09-25-2007, 06:20

I am director of a library and we legally reformat materials all the time so I have a good understanding of international copyright law.

The issue as I see it is that most of the security programs used by game companies appear to me to violate the "fair use" of the copyright law. The game disk are exactly like a music CD. I have the legal right to copy a music CD to my MP3 for my own use. Indeed, many academic libraries have copied thousands, maybe hundreds of thousand old vinyl records onto a CD or MP3 format.

I have the right to copy a game that I own to make a play disk and then to archive the original provided that I adhere to the single user clause (i.e. I can't play the game on one disk while my daughter plays on the other using her computer) However, how does it hurt Sega if I put the game on a virtual drive so that I can play it without a CD in the drive? It doesn't and I ought to be able to do it. The same hold true with Microsoft (Please God, forgive me for mentioning them by name) placing install limits on XP and Vista.

I get quite frustrated with companies that assume that I am a criminal. Especially when they deny me the rights that I have under law because some people lack ethics. I thought in the US at least, though not where I live, that there was a presumption of innocence guaranteed by law. While companies are not the government (unless you live in China), I think that concept might still apply. I have in my more angry moments wondered if a class action lawsuit could not be filed by users and gamers against the companies because of this issue.

That said the only security system I've had lots of trouble with was Star Force. Other than that Caesar VI has a security system that you apparently must be logged into the Internet for it to check your disk for authenticity. At least the game wouldn't load on my computer without being online. No thank you. I'll never buy a game from that company again. Indeed, I took the game off my computer

Please note: I didn't see Tin Cow's post until after I wrote this.

Incidentally, another fairly easy way to prevent the theft of materials from a hard drive on a discarded computer is to have two hard drives (I have four OS-Drive/Game drive/My professional Stuff/ Wife's professional Stuff) Keep only your operating system and relatively unimportant stuff on one and any financial and personal materials on the other. When you get a new computer then simply transfer the drive.

Kaldhore

09-25-2007, 22:54

I just read ( sorry if this has been said b4) that patch 1.3 replaces the previous vanilla MTW II security to securerom?? is that so cos Im DLing 1.3 and Im not buying kingdoms cos of securerom so if it is the case I wont be using patch 1.3. BAD SEGA

pdp

09-25-2007, 23:25

It may not have been reported yet, but Securom and Sony are hated nearly as much as Microsoft, which means as far as I'm concerned it's inevitable.

I bought Kingdoms and THEN discovered this thread. :wall:
Impossible to return to the shop. Now my sealed Kingdom DVD is taking dust on a shelf. Selling it means more trouble than gain.

I'm very angry with SEGA, Sony and SecuRom, because there is no trace of such protection on the DVD box (btw - and that is worse - Securom is on patch 1.3 too).

I will take more attention *before* buying next CA games.

Privateerkev

09-26-2007, 04:03

From what I have heard, Securom is not on patch 1.3. If it was, I would be quite the unhappy camper...

Whacker

09-26-2007, 04:10

From what I have heard, Securom is not on patch 1.3. If it was, I would be quite the unhappy camper...

Not true. The 1.3 compatability patch for Vanilla installs securom files and keys on one's system, I had to do the dance and force their removal using some special tools.

C'mon CA, seriously.

Graphic

09-26-2007, 04:48

Whacker

09-26-2007, 04:52

Are you sure? I play vanilla with a mini-image, wouldn't that be detected?

It depends, not always. Sorry mate, can't elaborate more than that in the public forums due to Org rules.

Didz

09-26-2007, 09:40

I bought Kingdoms and THEN discovered this thread. :wall:
Impossible to return to the shop.
Being nosey....Why is it impossible to return it to the shop?

I only ask because of course returns are the only way this issue is going to get attention from SEGA. If everyone still buys and keeps the game then SEGA won't give a monkey's fart whether we play it or not.

pdp

09-26-2007, 13:12

Being nosey....Why is it impossible to return it to the shop?

.

because of the shop policy in my country allow return only for defects. Technically, the game works.

Didz

09-26-2007, 13:16

because of the shop policy in my country allow return only for defects. Technically, the game works.
Thats a bit poor, is there nothing about misrepresentation. Course you could always lie and say it doesn't work, not that I would advocate such a devious strategy.:dizzy2:

BTW: Has anyone tried mentioning SecRom in a product review on Play.com or Amazon. The reviews never seem to make it onto the screen if you do.

FactionHeir

09-26-2007, 16:16

Not true. The 1.3 compatability patch for Vanilla installs securom files and keys on one's system, I had to do the dance and force their removal using some special tools.

C'mon CA, seriously.

I scanned my medieval2.exe (1.3) with ProtectionID (which is the tool of choice when wanting to determine the exact version and copyprotection on a file) and it shows as SafeDisc 4.6 still.

But then, that doesn't mean it won't install SecuROM files (i.e. just to put SecuROM there but not itself using it, or not pretending to)

Whacker

09-26-2007, 16:43

I scanned my medieval2.exe (1.3) with ProtectionID (which is the tool of choice when wanting to determine the exact version and copyprotection on a file) and it shows as SafeDisc 4.6 still.

But then, that doesn't mean it won't install SecuROM files (i.e. just to put SecuROM there but not itself using it, or not pretending to)

I didn't say it switched copy protection mechanisms, I said it installed the Securom undeleteable files and keys. Not sure if the service itself was installed, but I haven't found any of the old Securom system files that I know of. Irregardless it's both pointless, stupid, and irresponsible to include those in the patch.

FactionHeir

09-26-2007, 16:59

The latter of my suspicions then.

Quite an interesting way CA/SEGA are handling this. Installing SecuROM without it actually being used (or at least not to my knowledge) in medieval2.exe
So they are pawns of Sony now?

Didz

09-27-2007, 09:22

I have tried once again to post a review on the Play.com site warning potential purchasers of Kingdoms that the game includes a hidden security protection programme. But once again the review has been blocked by Play.

It seems that Play don't want their customers to be forewarned about the implications of installing this game on their PC.

gardibolt

10-09-2007, 15:41

So it seems no news on the SecuRom front? I figured that I would just play regular M2TW and ignore Kingdoms until that was resolved, but I find myself discouraged. I feel let down by CA on this, and have no desire to play even the old game. So I think I'm done with CA products. :no:

RoadKill

10-10-2007, 02:08

Oh my! This discussion is still going on?!:no:

rvg

10-10-2007, 02:51

Oh my! This discussion is still going on?!:no:

Well, it's nice to keep the thread on the first page as an FYI for the newcomers. This is important information imho.

Didz

10-10-2007, 09:04

Well it doesn't look as though the retailers are too keen on informing their customers whats on the disk.

Galain_Ironhide

10-11-2007, 16:02

Ok, So I have been keeping a small eye on this issue since about just after it began and I've had a read on Wikipedia about Securom. :juggle2:

I'm one of those people who doesnt really know a lot about computers - just enough to get around, and I am very guilty of just putting the disc into the disc drive and off I go. SO what I am going to ask may sound silly.

Has anybody had any actual issues with Securom arise since installing the Kingdoms product? (I don;t just mean what every one has been talking about on this thread, I mean has anyone computers' stopped working or stuff like that?)

Also does Securom block burning of other products on to discs from your computer? My wife burns a lot of music (legally of course) onto CD's from her itunes (ipod program) and if Securom got in the way of that, my life wouldnt be worth living!

Again sorry about sounding a little :dizzy2:

Zenicetus

10-11-2007, 20:00

Galain_Ironhide, I don't think you'll find evidence of that kind of damage, and it shouldn't interfere with burning CD's. It's more about the potential for future problems -- possible backdoors for hackers, hassles with being flagged by future anti-virus or anti-malware programs you may install, and so on -- because you won't be able to remove the SecureRom files, ever, short of formatting the disk and reinstalling Windows.

That's what many of us are uncomfortable with, and it's why I haven't bought Kingdoms yet. I'm just not that hot for the expansion, with other games out there to play (and still having fun with M2TW), that I want to risk this level of intrusion on my computer. If Sega/CA released a clean uninstall version of Kingdoms (or a separate utility), I'd buy Kingdoms in a heartbeat. So far, they've been totally silent about this. So they don't get my money. And they won't get it for Empire either, if they follow this same path.

Anyway, you'll have to decide what your own comfort level is for this sort of intrusion, balanced against how much you want to play Kingdoms.

Galain_Ironhide

10-12-2007, 00:51

Thanks Zenicetus, you have pretty much answered what I wanted to know.

THe whole part about never being able to remove SecuRom from my computer alarms me. So I think Kingdoms might get a big miss from me.

:2thumbsup:

Whacker

10-12-2007, 01:24

Ermm.. It would seem we might need to clarify a few things here.

Galain_Ironhide, I don't think you'll find evidence of that kind of damage, and it shouldn't interfere with burning CD's.

Incorrect. Securom is well known to interfere with other types of copy protection, namely the Safedisc v2, 3, and 4 flavors. If you have older games that use these, there is a significant possibility that the owner will run into problems attempting to install and play the game. I have experienced this directly.

Second, while Securom does not natively force PIO mode on one's system's optical drives, one will find with some research that quite often that dev/publisher Help/FAQ sections for people who are running into trouble reading the Securom-infested media will be advised to manually force PIO mode. Again this is not always going to be an issue for everyone, but if it does become one, be warned that extended use of an optical drive in PIO mode can cause excessive wear and damage as the drives are not designed to operate in this manner, this is part of the problem that Starforce creates. I should also mention that I personally have lost an optical drive to Starforce, as have more than a few others at the Org.

It's more about the potential for future problems -- possible backdoors for hackers, hassles with being flagged by future anti-virus or anti-malware programs you may install, and so on -- because you won't be able to remove the SecureRom files, ever, short of formatting the disk and reinstalling Windows.

I can't respond to the comment about 'backdoors' in terms of Securom because I haven't researched it, but given Sony's track record, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. However, it's not too excessively hard to remove the registry keys and files that Securom leaves on the system. Google will turn up a few FAQs on how to do so, and I think there's one posted in this thread also. It does take a reasonable amount of technical knowhow and is not for the faint of heart, so be forewarned. Of course, ideally one wouldn't have to remove the Securom to begin with since hopefully one wouldn't infest their system with it. :sweatdrop:

Anyway, you'll have to decide what your own comfort level is for this sort of intrusion, balanced against how much you want to play Kingdoms.

Erm, the core of the message here is true. The best thing for anyone to do is educate themselves on the issues at hand, and it often boils down to a calcuated risk. Do you really want the game that bad? Is it worth it? For many of us, the answer is no. If it is, are you willing to run the risk of the problems it stands a not-insigificant chance of causing for you? Many of us here would like to persuade others to boycott this based on the circumstances (myself included), but it boils down to an individual decision. If you're going to go about it, the least we can request and push for is that people make it an informed decision.

rvg

10-15-2007, 17:27

*bump*

Mouzafphaerre

11-05-2007, 03:21

.
We're all outraged but wouldn't we please help keep the thread open? CA representatives declared that they do read the threads and evaluate the complaints. Similar threads have been locked before merely for the mention of the warez alternative so to speak.

:bow:
.

Zenicetus

11-05-2007, 03:50

Yep, that's why I started the thread with the "forum rules only" suffix, after the first one was shut down. So please avoid any reference to cracked games.

This is an important issue that's causing many of us to boycott Kingdoms unless CA/Sega does the right thing... the enterpretation of which varies, but for me, the minimum is removing the SecureRom garbage after I uninstall the game. I can live with it up to that point, but it's insane that I'd have to live with it after I uninstall the game.

At this point, the official silence has lasted long enough that we can probably assume what the answer is. But I'd like to hold out a little hope that they'd come through... if for no other reason than it will make many of us less wary about pre-ordering Empire. I'm definitely not doing that now, without knowing in advance what the CP method is.

Meneldil

11-05-2007, 10:07

What a bunch of :daisy:, I'm glad I haven't be offered Kingdoms for my birthday.

As it stands now, I won't buy any other TW game, plain and simple.

And here I was hoping video game companies would have gotten a clue after the failure that was Starforce...

TinCow

11-05-2007, 15:00

As the above posters have stated, the thread has remained open because the posters have refrained from making comments about software piracy. Please keep it that way.

Niterider613

11-05-2007, 21:49

All I can say is I bought Kingdoms and I love it. I have had no problems. I also own Neverwinter Nights 2 so I guess this secu thing was already on my computer before I put Kingdoms on. I love the Total War games and will keep buying them. I do think they should patch Kingdoms though. I hope it happens.

Redz " Preatorian Knights"

11-05-2007, 23:18

wat a great say(daveybaby).... my wife had already send me my copy of mtw nd kngdoms(from philippines to nigeria), and now wid all this :daisy: i dnt know if i wuld be xcited or not... securom?wat... mins d money i earned for my overtymn wuld be wasted as i dnt know now if i wuld install dis wid my laptop!!!

well..... men it wuld take a lot of courage anyway if i wont try 2 install it cuz if nd wen those cds cums 2 my hand.. the hell wid securom.... CHARGE ND INSTALL!!!!!!

TinCow

11-06-2007, 00:29

Mouzafphaerre

11-06-2007, 00:46

Zenicetus

11-06-2007, 05:46

Again, I think it's important to emphasize that, as far as I am aware, there has not been a single reported problem as a result of installing Kingdoms. The debate in this thread is largely about boycotting the expansion due to the trend towards invasive and illegal copy protection, not due to potential harm to your system.

I have one game that uses this same version of SecureRom (Bioshock). I've already had to flag off that directory for my backup software, because it throws up a flag when I try to run it. That's my personal time that I have to burn, to deal with something that will be left behind by a stupid game. And those files will never go away unless I reformat my C: drive. If I buy Kingdoms and uninstall the game, those files will still be there, causing potential problems in the future. Who knows what might happen with the next anti-virus or anti-malware progam I install, that flags intrusive, hidden files like this? I've been burned once by Bioshock, I'm not going to be burned a second time by Kingdoms, which isn't even a full game like Bioshock, just a minor expansion.

TinCow, you really don't get it, do you? When did we get to the point where we uninstall a game, and the game doesn't completely uninstall, and that's suddenly "okay" with the gaming community?

How closely do you monitor invasive apps on your system?

Ramses II CP

11-06-2007, 07:30

Let's not lose sight of Sony's DRM history either. As best I can recall it was just over a year before people proved the link between 'XCP' and the sometimes severe problems with their machines. Kingdoms and this version of SecuRom are still very early in their life cycles, and there are a substantial number of reported problems with similar SecuRom installs from other games.

Problems which, of course, don't go away if you uninstall the game.

:egypt:

TinCow

11-06-2007, 12:55

TinCow, you really don't get it, do you? When did we get to the point where we uninstall a game, and the game doesn't completely uninstall, and that's suddenly "okay" with the gaming community?

How closely do you monitor invasive apps on your system?

I own Bioshock, therefore I do get it. I have personally had problems with the Bioshock copy protection system and it was very annoying. I was simply trying to cool down some misinformation that seems to have popped up in this thread.

And please... don't attempt to play me off as some kind of CA apologist on this. Anyone who has read this thread knows that I am very much opposed to SecuROM and have personally boycotted Kingdoms because of it.

LadyAnn

11-08-2007, 12:12

Huh? I just bought Kingdom. Should I returned it? I am confused... let me read this long thread again...

econ21

11-08-2007, 12:35

Huh? I just bought Kingdom. Should I returned it? I am confused... let me read this long thread again...

Do you have Bioshock, Neverwinternights 2 or some other game with SecuRom? If you do, I would not worry about returning Kingdoms as apparently they will already have installed SecuRom on your computer.

If you don't, it's up to you. But nothing I have read has given me any concern about SecuRom. :shrug:

sapi

11-08-2007, 14:09

Nor me. But some feel that it's an issue; I work under the assumption that I'd have reformatted before it became a problem, anyway :grin2: :shrug:

crpcarrot

11-08-2007, 15:52

i suprised anyone cn be so unconcerned about somehting u dont have control over on your own pc. specially something that soemelse can take control over without your knowlege.

the fact that i use my pc for my personal finances just makes it impossible for me to even consider having securom on my pc.

also the fact that it can messup other games i buy in the future is a huge discentive for me. why would i compromise my pc knowingly in anyway? especially for something i have paid for legitimately. its just does not make sense.

LadyAnn

11-08-2007, 18:39

I made a decision. I'll install it on my gaming computer, and be ready to reformat the disk if any supicion of malware pops up.

I'll trust my anti-virus/anti-spyware to do the job of alerting me of any thread.

Annie

crpcarrot

11-09-2007, 10:52

i think thats where the problem comes in. since securom is not a virus anti-virus software will be programmed to ignore the hidden folder created by scurom. the ideal situation for anyone with malicious intent.

however if u have a seperate gaming pc i guess it doesnt really matter but since i dont have one it does.

drone

11-09-2007, 17:45

After years of Sony treating customers badly, culminating with the CD rootkit, I decided to boycott Sony. No TVs, stereo equipment, DVD players, CDs, etc. I used to buy a lot of their stuff, but no longer. It's tough to keep track of everything, but I do give it a try. Since Sony probably gets a portion of each sale of SecuRom infested software, so sorry, no Kingdoms for me. Hopefully the combined "platinum edition" or whatever they decide to call it will be without it.

AntiochusIII

11-11-2007, 01:10

however if u have a seperate gaming pc i guess it doesnt really matter but since i dont have one it does.Well, yes. That's the core of the problem, outside of the issue of principles (which by the way I'm firmly on the go-to-hell-you-corporate-scums side, or more politely the Consumer's Rights/Privacy side). If you do not use your gaming rig for business purposes or e-mail that relates to said purposes, you run much less risk with SecuRom than someone who does, and if you love the title then Kingdoms is probably worth it.

If you check your credit card account everyday online with that computer though...I'd rather be wary. There are no reported problems as such, but considering the amount of traffic in the internet, the percentage of said traffic that is either spam or simply malicious, and the fact that these programs go on great lengths to avoid detection by your anti-virus and anti-spyware programs...

There are other potential problems as well -- I think someone mentioned a case earlier in this thread where his online game can't be played anymore and that he suspects Kingdoms' SecuRom to be behind it, but the poster never came back to report on more of his findings, so there is no conclusive evidence that it's at fault. Whacker also mentioned above that SecuRom conflicts with some SafeDisc versions, though since I never tested it myself I do not know if this particular version also does.

Now of course, I use Daemon Tools, so me and these kinds of programs have a rather stormy relationship. A lot of them seem to think that the only use of Daemon Tools is to read downloaded pirated copies of disk images... I sort of went screw them I do other things with the program and googled my way out.

Anyway, since I think I'll be able to get some extra money this month and is looking to buy M2TW; a question: Does the 1.3 patch really comes with parts of the SecuRom malware? If yes, are they "active" or just useless unimplemented code?

Whacker

11-11-2007, 01:23

Whacker also mentioned above that SecuRom conflicts with some SafeDisc versions, though since I never tested it myself I do not know if this particular version also does.

Hello sir. Securom v7, which is what's been in use for some time now, can and does cause conflicts with other software DRM methods, so yes, this will cause problems for certain games. Safedisc v2/3/4 is just one of a few that are known to conflict.

Now of course, I use Daemon Tools, so me and these kinds of programs have a rather stormy relationship. A lot of them seem to think that the only use of Daemon Tools is to read downloaded pirated copies of disk images... I sort of went screw them I do other things with the program and googled my way out.

Well of course. Only dirty pirates and thieves use programs like p2p sharing and disc emulation!! They have absolutely NO redeeming value whatsoever and serve as nothing but tools for piracy! Geez, get with the times! :rolleyes:

Anyway, since I think I'll be able to get some extra money this month and is looking to buy M2TW; a question: Does the 1.3 patch really comes with parts of the SecuRom malware? If yes, are they "active" or just useless unimplemented code?

I *believe* that it installs Securom software, but can't be positive. I can state for a fact that it does install the "undeleteable" files and null registry keys, based on some testing a friend did.

AntiochusIII

11-11-2007, 03:19

Hello sir. Securom v7, which is what's been in use for some time now, can and does cause conflicts with other software DRM methods, so yes, this will cause problems for certain games. Safedisc v2/3/4 is just one of a few that are known to conflict.

I *believe* that it installs Securom software, but can't be positive. I can state for a fact that it does install the "undeleteable" files and null registry keys, based on some testing a friend did.Ouch.

Thank you very much for your comments...I guess I'll have to put off getting M2TW for now then :/ If it's just SafeDisc I'm fine with, but I really don't like SecuRom. Just about the only undeleteable registry I'll willingly accept is the Mount & Blade key and other similar unobtrusive ones.

What's with adding a new copy-protection program on a patch anyway. :inquisitive:

hellenes

11-11-2007, 04:00

Ive removed Securom with just 2 steps in 5 seconds...while Kingdoms is still working fine...dont ask me how i did it thats why god created google...

Zenicetus

11-11-2007, 04:10

Anyway, since I think I'll be able to get some extra money this month and is looking to buy M2TW; a question: Does the 1.3 patch really comes with parts of the SecuRom malware? If yes, are they "active" or just useless unimplemented code?

You can buy M2TW and just patch up to the last version 1.2 (assuming that's still available?), avoiding the 1.3 patch. As far as I know, 1.3 only adds multiplayer version compatibility with players who bought Kingdoms, and doesn't do anything at all to patch up or improve the original game. You can find mods that rebalance the 1.2 main game like Kingdoms, if you want that.

I still play the main campaign in M2TW without those mods, and without Kingdoms. That's a "clean" install, compared to what came later with the invasive DRM on the Kingdoms expansion.

hellenes

11-11-2007, 04:17

You can buy M2TW and just patch up to the last version 1.2 (assuming that's still available?), avoiding the 1.3 patch. As far as I know, 1.3 only adds multiplayer version compatibility with players who bought Kingdoms, and doesn't do anything at all to patch up or improve the original game. You can find mods that rebalance the 1.2 main game like Kingdoms, if you want that.

I still play the main campaign in M2TW without those mods, and without Kingdoms. That's a "clean" install, compared to what came later with the invasive DRM on the Kingdoms expansion.

The most satisfying thing is running Kingdoms without this DRM....

AntiochusIII

11-11-2007, 04:28

You can buy M2TW and just patch up to the last version 1.2 (assuming that's still available?), avoiding the 1.3 patch. As far as I know, 1.3 only adds multiplayer version compatibility with players who bought Kingdoms, and doesn't do anything at all to patch up or improve the original game. You can find mods that rebalance the 1.2 main game like Kingdoms, if you want that.

I still play the main campaign in M2TW without those mods, and without Kingdoms. That's a "clean" install, compared to what came later with the invasive DRM on the Kingdoms expansion.Ah, so that explains it -- may be the SecuRom addition is supposed to align M2TW vanilla with Kingdoms somehow? Hmm...I guess I'll reconsider buying M2TW after all (lol @ my own indecision). If the 1.3 patch is just multiplayer then I can do without it; I'm a single-player guy all the way so that doesn't matter in the least.

impar

11-11-2007, 10:16

Greetings!
Ive removed Securom with just 2 steps in 5 seconds...while Kingdoms is still working fine...dont ask me how i did it thats why god created google...Check to see if Securom hasnt reinstalled by itself again...

Didz

11-11-2007, 11:13

The key concern I have about Securom is:

a) Sony are offering a chargeable expansion of Securom to its customers which will by-pass their customers computer security system to gather data on the use of a copmuter for 'marketing purposes'.

b) The above feature is sold as a toolkit allowing Sony's customers to program their own criteria for gethering this data, which may also allow other executable packages to be imbedded in the code.

This means that even if we were willing to have our use of our PC monitored and analysed by legimate Sony customers we also have to consider the possibility that any of said customers could employ a rogue employee who will use Securom for their own ends, or that internal software security at Sony or any of its customers who buy the toolkit might be lax enough to allow the toolkit to leak out into the wider hacking community and become a vehicle for virus programmers and hackers.

hellenes

11-11-2007, 13:53

Greetings!Check to see if Securom hasnt reinstalled by itself again...

Nope doest reistall Ive taken care of that...

centurie

11-13-2007, 16:18

some of you people make me sick.............have you not noticed the state of pc gaming this last year or so???games are being released with so many bugs that many are unplayerable.
i have just returned to playing M2TW because my old pc found it a struggle, now that i have a high end pc i can now play this everything maxed out, and i have to say it looks and playes fantastic.

Now what does this have to do with this thread....well due to games being jack sparrowed games developers are just throwing out un-optimised games without bothering to spend the time makeing them good.securom is not to stop the jack sparrows but to stop the casual player lending games to friends and using simple dvd copy software from copying the games.

i have never had any problems with securom i don't use daemon tools or anything like that so its never been a problem for me.

if you people keep going on about boycotting games , then in the end you will not have any games to boycott, i was looking farward to three new titles this year........kingdoms.............empire earth 3 and opposing fronts.

i only purchased kingdoms because the other two were nothing short of a rushed mess........many people like me own £1000s of pounds worth of pc hardware only to play crap pc games, the total war series is one of the exceptions that makes pc's worth the price............

so i say too you , go ahead and boycott because in the end when good game developers give it up for the console market you will have nothing left to boycott.

and one more thing........deamon tools .game jackal ..alchole 120.......are all legal but we all know they are used by jack sparrows.......so if securerom stops them working all well and good. just because you have legal software does not make it right. its legal to marry someone for his or her monet ,devorce them then gain half there wealth.........its legal but wrong.
i say anyone who uses that software are using it to pirate games.

i will be buying every expansion that comes from this series..i will always support a good company who makes great products...without them the pc as a gaming platform will go under.

marrow

11-13-2007, 17:16

Dear oh dear, where to start...
Do you not find that the whole idea of gamers spending their money to buy botched and half-baked games just for the sake of the industry self-perpetuating itself into worse and worse state (uff...) is a bit strange?
The money is there and will be, PC gaming marke is still big and I say that keeping companies releasing :daisy: games afloat just for the sake of the PC gaming market is a big misunderstanding. It's THEM who should strive to deliver US good products, not US begging THEM to give us anything, however terrible it turns out to be; that's how market works mate. Following your logic in a few years' time publishers won't even bother finishing games at all, cos people like yourself will buy them on principle.

Secondly - assuming that every gamer who uses daemon tools is a thief is like assuming that everyone who owns a gun is a potential murderer, or everyone who drives is a hazard on the road. Why don't we start imposing sanctions upon motorists just because they are a potential danger to our kids? Are you feeling ok mate? I have put substantial amounts of money into games and gaming gear over the years and I feel outraged to be treated like a kid by people who happily break the law themselves (SONY), I feel humiliated to be lectured to by people who don't respect me or the law.

OK, rant's over, sorry if it was a little long. 'spect

Mouzafphaerre

11-13-2007, 18:29

.
First the EB2 board and then this. If weren't sure of CA guys' honesty, who have been honourable ORGahs ever since, I would suspect that somebody was encouraging them to play the fanboy and insult the fans. :no:
.

hellenes

11-13-2007, 19:15

Whacker

11-13-2007, 19:17

Edit - \/ \/ \/ I just saw what you were talking about in the other post. 'Wow' is the only thing I can really say to that. Sorry about jumping you like that marrow.

marrow

11-13-2007, 19:33

marrow, you need to relax mate. I was being extremely sarcastic when talking to Antiochus about Daemon Tools and P2P, I use those tools myself.

Oh, yeah, I know mate, no worries, I was addressing centurie who just grated on me a little is all.
Ha ha I do actually have a sense of humour lol don't take me for a grim git mate! 'spect

crpcarrot

11-14-2007, 14:46

@centurie

well it smakes me sick that it makes u sick that someone else might have a different opinion than yours

does that make any sense :dizzy2:

Henry707

11-15-2007, 13:45

Slightly off topic - but what the £$*" is a "jack sparrow" & what does it mean?
It sounds a bit like something Dick Van Dyke would say in Mary Poppins!!

Henri

sapi

11-15-2007, 13:49

Slightly off topic - but what the £$*" is a "jack sparrow" & what does it mean?
It sounds a bit like something Dick Van Dyke would say in Mary Poppins!!

Henri
Pirate, I assume (it's a reference to the character from the Pirates of the Carribean movies)

gardibolt

11-15-2007, 22:39

Just popped by to see if SEGA or CA had chosen to do the right thing and provide an uninstaller. Seems not, so I will return to my boycott of TW games.:skull:

hellenes

11-16-2007, 16:07

Just popped by to see if SEGA or CA had chosen to do the right thing and provide an uninstaller. Seems not, so I will return to my boycott of TW games.:skull:

I enjoy Kingdoms without the Securom rootkit...learn to google...

Zenicetus

11-17-2007, 19:43

I enjoy Kingdoms without the Securom rootkit...learn to google...

It's not productive to send a message to CA/Sega that we don't care if they use invasive DRM, because some players can figure out how to remove it. Not all players are going to want to go that far, or are comfortable doing it.

The message we should be sending, is that we won't buy games with invasive DRM, or DRM that isn't uninstalled with the game, in the first place. No sale... no soup for you, unless you treat your customers with some respect. That's especially important with the new Empire game on the horizon. I suspect there are many here that won't be buying that game if they do what they did with Kingdoms.

Mouzafphaerre

11-18-2007, 11:23

It's not productive to send a message to CA/Sega that we don't care if they use invasive DRM, because some players can figure out how to remove it. Not all players are going to want to go that far, or are comfortable doing it.

The message we should be sending, is that we won't buy games with invasive DRM, or DRM that isn't uninstalled with the game, in the first place. No sale... no soup for you, unless you treat your customers with some respect. That's especially important with the new Empire game on the horizon. I suspect there are many here that won't be buying that game if they do what they did with Kingdoms.
.
Very well said, completely agree.

Btw, mods, please don't use such posts as excuses to close this thread. :bow: Single posts, if deemed violating the forum rules, can be cleaned out of the well mannered thread, you know.
.

hellenes

11-18-2007, 21:36

.
Very well said, completely agree.

Btw, mods, please don't use such posts as excuses to close this thread. :bow: Single posts, if deemed violating the forum rules, can be cleaned out of the well mannered thread, you know.
.

Did I violate any rules? Because Ive removed an invasive rootkit that was compromising the finansial security of my bank account?

Didz

11-19-2007, 07:58

Its also worth noting that under UK law this sort of software is probably illegal, either under the Data Protection Act (as it is designed to gather personal information without the subjects consent) or under the Human Rights Act (as it is an invasion of personal privacy).

Its probably not practical to try and sue the retailers for selling software without informing their customers of the existence of this software in the product. However, it is worth the cost of a telephone call to your local trading standards office just to flag the issue with them and hopefully prompt a government funded investigation into a breach of their own legislation.

Mouzafphaerre

11-19-2007, 11:03

.
I did not say anything particularly about you Hellenes.
.

Husar

11-19-2007, 20:09

I love rootkits, since they appeared my PC is a lot more stable. :2thumbsup:

Omanes Alexandrapolites

11-19-2007, 20:23

I've been lurking through this thread for a while now, although I feel that it may be time to voice my opinion on SecuROM.

SecuROM is something I have had on my machine for six months. I must admit that I have had only one insignificant problem that may have been related to the system, but that isn't the point I wish to make, its more the fact that a item of software has existed on my machine for so long without my knowledge that frustrates me.

The first thing which alerted me to SecuROM on my machine was something I found in my registry when cleaning up R:TW. I had no idea what "SecuROM" was at the time, and, understanding everything else stored in my registry, I innocently decided to look into it.

After realising that I was "infected" with the software I decided to try and diagnose the games which contained it. Using ProtectionID, I found the games which had inserted the program into my system rather quickly - Caesar IV (Sierra) and The Settlers II 10th Anniversary Edition (Ubisoft).

I then decided to scour the EULAs of both of these games. I'm one of those people who is stupid enough to just flick past the EULA when it comes up during installation - I know I'm never going to break it in anyway, so I don't really see the point of wasting fifteen minutes upon it. Anyway, after reading through them, I was dismayed to find that neither of them told me that they were also installing SecuROM v7.2 on my machine.

I then un-installed both the games - I finished playing them weeks ago, so I didn't really need them any more. I did this hoping it would remove the system. Despite the fact that Kingdoms doesn't delete the files after un-installation, I was pleased to find that that these games did "politely" clean up after themselves.

For me, it wasn't the fact that SecuROM was what it was, it was its existence without my knowledge or consent. Don't get me wrong, I do dislike having intrusive software like SecuROM on my system, and it does discourage me from buying, but I do feel that the former factor, knowing what I'm getting, is more important when I buy any game.

Edit: I take what I said about the games cleaning up after themselves back - I've just found some SecuROM entries in my registry. I'm not very please about it, I must say.

Gray Beard

11-21-2007, 04:49

God, I hate hate lawyers, I hate them, I hate them, I hate them. But you know what? When you need one nothing else will do.

The companies that bundle these non-security devices into their products should have F. Lee Baily knocking on their door. Actually, in the US the DoJ should be all over this. It isn't just a thing with games. If there are any lawyers reading these boards please contact me if you want to file a class action suit. I want to be part of it.

It is a good way for a young lawyer to get very wealthy and famous.

On a related note, I'd like to see companies be forced to stop placing install limits on legal copies of software. I replace my computer every 18 months. I have a hard drive that is dedicated to Windows and nothing else and format the drive and reinstall Windows every 6 months. (If you don't think this will improve stability and loading times you haven't tried it) I get tired of having to get a "special authorization code" from Bill & Melinda. :wall:

TinCow

11-21-2007, 13:14

I am a lawyer, but I have no desire to get involved in class actions. Plus, you hate me.

Whacker

11-21-2007, 15:33

I am a lawyer, but I have no desire to get involved in class actions. Plus, you hate me.

I saw that one coming a mile away! :hide:

"If the DRM is unfit, you must not buy it."

Mori Gabriel Syme

11-21-2007, 17:20

I enjoy Kingdoms without the Securom rootkit...learn to google...
I have enough calls on my time that I have no desire to spend it researching and removing something that should not be there in the first place. It is much better to just not buy Kingdoms until it is released in a clean state.

Copperknickers

11-21-2007, 21:19

crpcarrot

11-22-2007, 15:58

You might want to go and tell them that, and join the .coms legions of whiners who swear on their computers screen that they will never buy another total war game but end up hanging around and annoying everybody and buying it anyway, then starting the cycle again. It dosnt really matter to me if CA and SEGA want to protect their games, even with all these other conspiracy theories about spyware and the like. It doesnt harm me or anyone else and when it does, CA will be hearing from a few people. Big style.
My:2cents:

haha sorry but to me that sounds like leaving u wallet out in the street and saying

"ok if u r brave enough try and steal it, but be warned i will cause some big noise when u do"

obviously u r pretty confident that u PC and personal data is secure (unless of course you have nothing worth stealing)

i dont think anyone of us has a problem with CA "protecting their games" but unfortunately the only ones affected seem to be ppl like us who actually do pay for it.

phonicsmonkey

11-22-2007, 23:43

Well if you live in the UK you may as well install Securom now, as all your personal data has already been given away to criminals by the government!

Didz

11-23-2007, 10:25

It dosnt really matter to me if CA and SEGA want to protect their games, even with all these other conspiracy theories about spyware and the like.
Sorry CK but I just want to correct you on the above point which seems to imply that the spyware functionality of SecuRom is somehow unproven.

In fact, there is no doubt that Securom has the potential to gather marketing information on behalf of its owner. If you visit www.securom.com and read through the optional features being sold to securom customers you will see that the ability to gather marketing data on the usage of the PC it has installed itself on is a key value added option which is being used to sell the product by Sony.

The actual wording of the sales pitch is as follows:

n-CD Solutions

The n-CD concept is the next step towards 1 : 1 marketing. It connects existing, offline digital media directly with specific websites on the internet. By pairing a "Secure Web Link" together with an unique identification number (PID™), only "original CDs" are granted access to specific websites and to specific premium content designed for your disc customers. This unique concept makes your optical media more interesting by creating additional value for your customers.

Your Benefits

For the first time ever the n-CD concept makes it possible to add value to conventional optical media. Only this technology developed by Sony DADC guarantees the user the advantage of accessing specific content which is directly linked to a specific original CD or DVD. Postscribed-ID (PID) allows identification of a specific disc by checking the disc's unique identification number. Organizations using the new n-CD can now implement new marketing tools:

Link a CD directly to a specific webpage and to specific premium content - secure and unique!
Collection of bonus points (e.g. per CD)
Lottery games (e.g. 10 out of 100 CDs win a prize "online" or get privileged web access)
Automatic online registration (e.g. for software publishers)
Collect valuable customer data for 1 : 1 marketing activities

Product Features

The overall n-CD offering from Sony DADC includes

CD production / replication
Unique identification number (PID)
Secure weblink (CD - Internet)
Online authentication process
Online marketing promotion concept (bonus points, voucher concept, lottery games)
User statistics & CRM data
Customer specific portal site (optional)
Online shop (optional)
For more information visit http://www.n-cd.com

As you can see the n-CD option uses SecuRom to gather marketing information on behalf of its owner, but not only that it has the potential to do a lot more. for example it could detect everytime you insert a specific CD into you CD Drive and automatically link you to the owners website to inform your of their latest special offers, it could in theory monitor everytime you use the CD and charge you on a per play basis. It can allocate bonus points per play and then inform you of rewards you have earned through consistent customer loyalty. It could be used to promote new products by linking the user directly to a promotional website when they next insert the game CD into their PC, and offer them the chance to pre-order or buy.

These features are not based on a conspiracy theory they are based upon the product specification as explained to prospective SecuRom customers.

For those with enough interest its also worth following the crumb trial provided by the www.n-cd.com link as this leads eventually to this site http://www.sonydadc.com/anzeige_ncd/ which gives you some actual examples of online marketing campaigns undertaken using this technology. Note: that in most of these examples the functionality has been secreted on a dedicated CD distributed by a company specifically for marketing purposes but essentially the technology is the same as is the trigger mechanism.

Mori Gabriel Syme

11-26-2007, 02:58

Good find, Didz. This also goes a good ways to explaining why companies are going with this product. I imagine the marketing guys at the publishers are beside themselves with the possiblities of using this stuff. They only thing they need to determine is how much of this the customers will put up with, and how quickly they can get us to accept it.

Didz

11-26-2007, 20:27

I have to say tolerance for this sort of stuff is pretty low. For example: I am known to curse everytime I have to wait for that damned news pop-up to finish loading after you have booted msn messenger. So, the throught of having to wade through a series of promotional websites everytime I want to play Totalwar fills me with dread.

centurie

11-28-2007, 02:02

Translation:

I don't believe that there have been any confirmed cases of copy protection software having overtly negative effects on the hardware, or software, of the consumer, and I would appreciate it if someone would provide such an example for me.

I don't believe that such schemes hurt anyone except the pirates
~sapi

Didz

11-28-2007, 02:32

Obviously a Sony shareholder.

phonicsmonkey

11-28-2007, 02:52

Obviously a Sony shareholder.

Or a games company employee taking control of his Org account via one of those Securom installations he has on one of his five hard drives! :laugh4:

by the way I have Daemon tools installed and I am not a :pirate2: - I find it useful for a number of things involving my legitimately purchased CDs and DVDs

Ramses II CP

11-28-2007, 04:48

There are already, in this very thread, multiple examples of Sony's copy protection software causing everything from minor to severe problems for user's PCs. Centurie clearly has not read the thread or done even the most basic research on the subject. :wall:

:egypt:

Mouzafphaerre

11-28-2007, 05:41

.
We may be feeding one troll under different identities... Post reported.
.

Gray Beard

11-28-2007, 07:17

I have gotten so that anytime I play a game I disconnect my Internet service. A few games will then not load but I don't play those.

Maybe it is time to read a book rather than buy another game.

gardibolt

12-19-2007, 19:20

I hear ya Grey Beard. I have gotten more reading done since I stopped playing TW until this Securom issue is dealt with properly. I have plenty of things to amuse me, and if CA doesn't want to be one of them, well, that's their choice.

hellenes

12-19-2007, 20:41

I have enough calls on my time that I have no desire to spend it researching and removing something that should not be there in the first place. It is much better to just not buy Kingdoms until it is released in a clean state.

It took 180 seconds of my life...
If you dont have 180 seconds then you shouldnt be here... :laugh4:
Anyway if publishers want to stop piracy they should make 100% online games...WoW proved how much money is there if you take piracy out of the picture...

Mori Gabriel Syme

12-20-2007, 17:35

It took 180 seconds of my life...
If you dont have 180 seconds then you shouldnt be here... :laugh4:

~:rolleyes:

Fisherking

12-20-2007, 18:31

Oh! Is that the point?

It is easy to remove when you are done with the game so it is okay?

What about your bank information and any other private information you may have on your computer. Why should it be that they can even think of putting potentially harmful BS on your system when you are paying the bills.

This junk should not be allowed…end of story! Nothing potentially invasive should be allowed and letting it go because you can get rid of it when you don’t need it any more is just asking for the next step.

Do you know what identity theft is. Or how tough it is to get straight once you find it. It is a big big hassle and pirates or not it is no reason to allow others to snoop your system.

You got rid of it in 180 seconds but what did it take when it was first loaded? Dose it make a scan of everything? Dose a system copy go into a data base some where?

It is malware plane and simple and I don’t pay money to people who could care less if I am damaged or might even be in on it.

Info mining of consumer products should be outlawed and products you pay for should be free of it.

cavenaghi9

12-25-2007, 23:16

You know, I noticed a funny thing the other day. After installing Kingdoms the first time, I had trouble with some campaigns incurring in a CTD. Later on I read that you can't properly update M2TW if you have any modified files, so I uninstalled and reinstalled Medieval 2. I had already caught a wiff of this thread and the whole SecuROM thing and decided to take a look at how it installs itself.

To make a long story short, I deleted the hidden 'SecuROM' folder from the also hidden 'Application Data' folder where it lives, but kept 'Application Data' open in a Windows Explorer window. Then I put in the first Kingdoms DVD in the drive to begin the install. No longer had I closed the tray and the autorun begun, popping up the Menu for install, play and such, that the SecuROM folder got created again.

The point is, I can't tell for sure, but it seems like SecuROM gets automaticly installed by just putting the DVD into the drive. If someone could confirm this (and I don't really know if it's installed, but why would it create the folder if it wasn't?), as this is a point where no EULA has been shown yet, could it possibly be construed as an illegal practice?

adembroski

12-25-2007, 23:44

I'm really having a hard time understanding how people can be informed that a company, without their permission, installed software in their registry that requires a virtual shut down of your computer's protections in order to remove... and a piece of software that already compromises your security as it is... is okay.

I own kingdoms, I play kingdoms, and I've accepted that SecuRom is a part of that. That doesn't make it any less wrong for CA to have done that too me.

It's my rig, I should have been informed of every last piece of software going on my computer, and should have been given the choice prior to installation, if not prior to purchase.

Analogy time... imagine if you were having cable installed, and as part of the package, the cable guy installed a camera in your living room to keep an eye on you and make sure you weren't using a camcorder to broadcast PPV over the internet. The camera is secured in the wall in such a way that removing it would leave a huge uncovered window to the outside. This is SecuRom.

Bravedude

01-02-2008, 04:06

Why has no one from SEGA or CA responded in this topic what so ever? Every time I see some one ask this question (I think 3 times in this thread) it is swept aside by others peoples bickering topics (usually over law).

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-02-2008, 05:00

The message we should be sending, is that we won't buy games with invasive DRM, or DRM that isn't uninstalled with the game, in the first place. No sale... no soup for you, unless you treat your customers with some respect. That's especially important with the new Empire game on the horizon. I suspect there are many here that won't be buying that game if they do what they did with Kingdoms.

Very well said. The Empires era is my favourite in history, and I will be saddened if it has malware DRM, because I will not buy it. If it is a game worse than M2TW, I will buy it, even if only to give mods a chance. If it is bug-ridden, I will probably buy it. If it has SecuRom or something equivalently bad, I will never buy it. I'd rather download a crack for it.

irishron2004

01-29-2008, 19:04

Now I know why I have to clean house so well to be able to reinstall the game in case of something that may not eben be my fault and have to use their uninstaller. THANKS FOR NOTHING, SEGA.

irishron2004

01-30-2008, 00:55

Completely understandable. Low post count in forums generally correlates negatively with a member's perceived credibility, and vice versa. But I have no reason to lie about something like this if the game's copy protection is just a simple disc check. Maybe someone will back me up on what I said about Kingdoms using Securom v7, but if you want to find out yourself:
1. Install Kingdoms
2. Run RootkitRevealer. It should list a registry entry "hkey_current_user\software\securom\!CAUTION! NEVER ...."
3. Check timestamp to see that it coincides with installation of Kingdoms. (If it does not match and is an earlier time, Securom v7 had already been installed by another game that uses it e.g., NWN2, Bioshock, Overlord)
4. Open registry editor and you find you can't remove the entry.

Posting the address of a certain site offering cracks is against the rules, but you will see it lists the protection used by Kingdoms as Securom v7 and the original M2TW as Safedisc v4.

I just used regedit/find/safedisc and its registry on my machine is HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE/SOFTWARE/C07ft5Y dat says "SafeDisc RefCount". Its subfolders are Medieval2, RomeTW, RomeTW-BI, Simcity4, and Microsoft. Now who can you trust when Microsoft uses it?
Securom registry is the same as Tafferboy's. They have all their info as Hex-decimal of which I don't readily read.

No wonder computer resources go to hell when companies use them up for garbage like this. I could get back valuable memory and resources for this game if this was not on here and active.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-30-2008, 01:17

SafeDisc and SecuRom are two different copy protection software types. SafeDisc isn't quite so bad.

irishron2004

01-30-2008, 08:42

If it would be so bad and evil, why would companies be using it?

I think it's all blown up.

I consider it an issue because of the way it works.

1.You get a bad download of update2. There have been a lot of them and a lot of bad uninstalls to go with it. Don't belive me, count the threads and the messages in the threads at TWC. 650 mb is one big download and if the phone company hiccups inthe middle you lose.

2. Securom or safedisc doesn't get removed from the registry on the uninstall. This one causes problems because the old install info is still being read by it and won't let you reinstall the game and/or updates. Too pervasive.

3.Securom and any other such malware Microsoft lets through must love Vista for all the hidden and read-only files the game puts in the adminstror folder totally unaware to the consumer.

With this combination and the game company keeping the buyers in the dark about these, no wonder the posts about it are angry.

Spartan198

02-02-2008, 07:06

M2TW uses Safedisc v4, iirc - I haven't heard of any complaints about it.

That's a relief. I just got M2TW today and just now read about this SecuRom thing. I'll shy away from Kingdoms for the time being,though. Thanks,guys.

ArtistofWarfare

02-29-2008, 22:02

Kingdoms has SecuROM, M2TW has SafeDisc.
Using (illegal) methods to bypass SecuROM checks will still not get rid of the entry, as this is (as far as I understand) installed during the game's actual installation, so merely installing the game will create said entries.

As for someone exploiting SecuROM entries, you wouldn't be able to sue SEGA or CA for it, according to the M2TW EULA.

As SecuROM supposedly would be part of "Game Software".

I do agree with the person who posted in the earlier topic, that corporations should reward good behavior instead of punish bad behavior.
Afterall, if they were to include a great, illustrated, colored and detailed manual as well as say some bonus material like figurines, fancy CD packaging or cloth maps, there would be more incentive to buy the game.

This is borderline brilliance...as simple of an idea as it is.

I've just read about this (Securom) in the past 5 minutes and it...has me quite upset.

Right- These companies today have NO problem spending money on equipment/research/etc to prevent people from pirating their software...yet they insist that a color manual and some "incentives" to buy the retail would simply blow production costs out of this galaxy.

Imagine the day when a new dev comes along and says "you know what, if our software gets pirated, then so be it. We're going to create the program that our fanbase wants...and if we make a better game but make a little less money, then so be it. We're in this for the quality of our product, not some monetary value that only .1% of our company will even see".

Unfortunately, we know this isn't happening.

So in the meantime, the "suits" with 278 years of education, will continue to display the intellect of a Fruit Fly.

Mouzafphaerre

04-21-2008, 04:38

.
The patch has been released and the rootkit stays.

Mouzafphaerre's TotalWar saga ends...
.

oz_wwjd

04-21-2008, 09:40

I can see the point,they don't want the game pirated,but surely there's a etter way to do it than by loading software on to someone computer than they don't even know that it's being loaded on in the first place? I had issues with a program like this that locked me out of playing most of my games because it got the idea that I was trying to copy the CD,it took a full delete and re-install of Windows XP to remove it.I was thinking about buying Kingdoms ,but not if it's going to load programs on to my comp,without my knowledge.

Timsup2nothin

04-23-2008, 22:00

This is too funny and I can't help myself...

Not that the issue isn't serious, but I have noticed on many game forums that the thread with the most action is almost always the SecuROM debate thread.

The funny thing is that I can clearly remember (no Alzheimer's yet) having a very passionate face to face debate (only way to have a debate at the time)about how cheesy it was for game software sellers to make it impossible to run their programs from these new-fangled hard drives without sticking the floppy in the 5.25. Since compared to a CD or DVD those old floppies were about as stable as butter under a blowtorch that was a real issue by jingo!

My position then, and ever since, is that I am willing to pay for a license to run their game, but I will then run their game in the way that is most pleasant and convenient for me...which, by the way, is completely legal no matter how much <quote> cracking <endquote> goes into making it possible. Ask me for a copy of a program, I will tell you to prove you paid for the license. Give me a copy of a program and within 24 hours I'll either delete it or send the full purchase price as researched by checking at Wal-Mart directly to the developers, which is actually quite a boon to them since all the middlemen go unpaid.

Now, on the current iteration of this tired old argument...since anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that SecuROM is no more or less effective as copy protection than any previous system (read 'not at all'), what the heck makes it worth paying Sony the big bucks to use it? Read Sony's pitch. Notice that nowhere do they say that their new process will do any more to prevent copying than anything has done in the past. They are selling the 'added values'; 1:1 marketing, system penetration and monitoring, more to be developed as we go along.

It currently checks to see if some programs that Sony deems to be 'pirating software' are installed on the system and punishes you by not letting you play the game. Some people find that invasive, others say if you aren't a pirate you have nothing to fear. If SecuROM was identifying that software and then logging what use you made of it and sending the log back to Sony, which it is fully capable of doing more people would find it invasive, but there would still be plenty saying that if you aren't a pirate you have nothing to fear...and the fact that they would still be saying that is what we should all be afraid of.

merkava

05-07-2008, 11:54

Is there any mention of the Eras having this type of protection?

Two days ago I had a bad surprise. An error box with the mention of securom and a kind pointing to they're website.

Error

Conflict with disc emulator software detected.
Se www.securom.com/emulation for more details.

I coulden't beleave my eyes.

My PC has 3 months, in this time I played two games only, M2TV patched to 1.2 and the Eras Rome/BI disc that from what I know has onle safedisc4.
Two days ago I instaled an old game from 2003 Homeworld 2 an when I try to enter the game I get the error message.

I diden't even dreamed I had this protection on my system.
Also from what I've tried I cant find any trace of securom but it seems to be present and in conflict.

I'm starting to feel sodomised, really.:wall:

Old Geezer

05-07-2008, 12:34

Perhaps a class action law suit will eventually resolve such problems.

merkava

05-07-2008, 20:45

Well two mails have been sent to the two companies involved.
I even asked Sega directly if securom was they protection for Eras, but still don't expect any reply.

But in the end I'm one more sucker and I don't have Kingdoms.

FactionHeir

05-07-2008, 20:56

Afaik you can return the game if it has unwanted software/malware like securom on it and its not clearly marked anywhere, including the manual.
Other games like R6Vegas prewarn you in the manual for instance.

Anonymous II

05-08-2008, 01:31

This is interesting "litterature" indeed. :yes:

Being a keen follower of debates/discussions in general, this is very fun reading.

When it comes to the issue, I'm glad to say: I'm not interested in computers, and this is an issue I can't relate to in one way or another. Computers never work properly (at least for me) anyway :grin:, so this will not affect my decision to buy Kingdoms at all.

After computer games started installing files in other folders than the game folder I have created (you know, putting files in "user this and that" and "system" and God knows what), I have completely lost control over what happens with my computer.

It's been a long time since Norton Commander, that's for sure! ~:handball:

:thumbsup:

Ooh yes, I have certainly contributed to this thread now... :grin: