View Full Version : **M:TW Impressions** Get \'em while they\'re hot!
Lord Aeon
08-22-2002, 00:02
Hey Kids!
I figured since i was one of the first to pick up and play this game i should jot down some impressions for the rest. Most (if not all) of this is the same stuff you've read about already, so forgive me if it's a bit redundant.
Let me also get this out of the way: the large battle bug has been fixed, as far as i can tell. No slowdown at all.
I think i should start simply.
Two words:
Blown Away.
Shogun: Total War, when it was released, was probably the best thing to happen to strategy gaming since "Risk". STW pushed the envelope and basically redefined the genre for computer gaming. This next iteration in the Total War series will most likely go down historically as having done the same thing. Strategy Game of the Year honors are pretty much sewn up, and CA should be very, very proud of how accurately this game depicts empire building, management, and expansion. (They should also be commended on actually making the release date :-p )
Alright, enough accolades; onto business:
The first thing that strikes you is the sheer breadth of the strategy map. Thinking back on Shogun, the map was pretty manageable and it was relatively easy to keep up with what was going on all over Japan. Not only is the map bigger (duh), but since there are so many AI opponents, it is almost impossible to know what everyone's doing at any given moment. When you begin, and for most of the first 20 or so years - even after youve revealed a large chunk of the map - you'll want to concern yourself only with those events around you.
The second thing that will probably occur to you is that the tech tree has been significantly enlarged. My biggest fear was that this game would play largely like Shogun in the tech department. Boy, was i mistaken. Sure, everyone already knows that the number of units is almost overwhelming, but even within a faction, the different units you can produce with different strengths and weaknesses is staggering. Add to this the ability to hire mercenaries, bribe armies, etc., and you've got some pretty interesting options for the battle map. I haven't yet got to a point where i could carry out a naval assault, but believe me, i'm looking forward to it, even if it is auto-resolved.
Another interesting dynamic in the battle map is the ability to take prisoners. These prisoners are great bargaining tools for dragging a hefty ransom out of a king. On the battlefield, they're also useful for turning the tide of battle. For example, i decided to take Aragon early in the game. The two armies were fairly evenly matched, but my enemy had the upper hand in having been able to defend across a bridge. After forcing his army back and making it across the bridge, i got completely stymied. The battle at that point was not going my way... Ruthlessness was the order of the day; i executed 67 POWs right then and there, and completely turned the tide as the enemy began to rout. It was beautiful. After the battle, my general picks up a virtue that went along the lines of "Your general will not hesitate to execute captives when he thinks the battle might not go his way. +2 Dread". Like i said, it was beautiful... almost brought a tear to my eye...
Dammit, i have to get going. More later, after i get to work and get a few minutes... feel free to ask any questions,
Lord Æon
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-21-2002).]
This is good news coming from an S:TW fan. I expected no less but validation is always nice.
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COGITOERGOVINCO
mizuYari
08-22-2002, 00:45
[best] strategy gaming since "Risk".
Since when Risk is a good strategy game? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif RISK is in the same league as MONOPOLY. Ask any DIPLOMACY player... (www.diplom.org)
MizuYari
The Black Ship
08-22-2002, 00:52
I take it then Aeon that you're not having problems playing the single player campaign? Everytime I try I get booted to desk-top http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
I thought the U.S release date was the 23rd?, yet some people in the U.S already seem to have it. How come?
Dionysus9
08-22-2002, 01:15
US Release date is 21st. Its in most stores today.
Sounds great Aeon. Thanks for the review...your ruthless execution of prisoners (and the fact you not only won the battle but also received +2 Dread as a reward) almost brought a tear to MY eye!
wooohooo!
[This message has been edited by Dionysus9 (edited 08-21-2002).]
Lord Aeon
08-22-2002, 01:21
No, not a single crash or any related problem... but keep in mind i only played for about 2 hours.
LOL, "only played for about 2 hours"... that's not something i've been able to say about any game but a Total War game. I have a short attention span. Y'know, Latchkey kid and all that...
Anyway, you'll want to get those assassins trained early, because you'll be wanting to get rid of a general or two (oftentimes one of your own) before he does you any damage. Also, assigning titles to your generals is a nice touch. It certainly gives you more control over how your generals improve over time. Many of your generals will be very powerful at the start of the game (relative to STW generals), and some can be made even more powerful than (or at least "as powerful as") enemy generals with the right titles. One thing i didn't try was stacking titles on one genreal, but i suspect that you wouldn't be able to; not that you'd want to in the first place.
Alliances are handled more realistically by the CPU. CPU charactersno longer make stupid alliancs, and will readily break treaties they've made with the weaker partner when asked to choose. OK, this is nothing new, but being able to gauge this easily by checking the influence rating of a leader is a welcome addition. Your decision to attack can now be better educated.
OK, more later... i have to try to act busy now.
Edit: Jon, i have no idea why we had it today. I went to EB to pick up The Thing, saw this and thought better of it. I know for a fact that Babbages out here doesn't have it yet.
[This message has been edited by Lord Aeon (edited 08-21-2002).]
Ii Naomasa
08-22-2002, 01:24
I'm still at work and therefore can't talk about the game itself, but just from the manual/tech tree, I'm already blown away.
As Lord Aeon has mentioned already, the tech tree is much larger and complex...all good things in a game like this.
The manual is 80 pages of goodness (most of which is actual manual text...very few large images or wasted space). I've been skimming through it in between functions and you sort of get a Europa Universalis-lite feel to the strategic end of things...all of which is a good thing (they could actually go EU full blown and I'd be happy, but limiting the details does make more accessible).
The need to hook your heirs up with princesses, the spying on your own generals to be aware of their loyalty or potential plans of revolting...it all seems (on paper, anyway), that they've added more complexity without wrecking the game. That alone is rare, as usually either companies stick with the same tried and true gameplay or they add too much stuff and just make a confused mess.
For those who were concerned over having a bunch of incestuous rulers by chance (I personally thought it would be fun in the sort of 'why?!?!? we were doing so good otherwise!!!' sort of way), it looks like (from the manual, anyway), that it's a vice that's manually triggered (dropping a princess of your own on either your king or an heir). Don't know necessarily why you'd do that unless you wanted to complicate your game...although I suppose you could do it by accident while trying to drop one on a general of yours, in which case you get what you deserve for not paying attention.
Never has the 143 minutes remaining in a work day seem so long... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
For those curious, I pre-ordered mine from Gamestop.com during one of their 'free overnight shipping' sales. It shipped yesterday and arrived around noon. Usually the local EB and Gamestops here in the Midwest get it the day after it's listed as 'shipping' on their on-line sites...or occassionally, the second day. My experience with places like Best Buy is that they don't put new games out until later in the day).
[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 08-21-2002).]
The game is great. The campaign has be a bit confused, it's much deeper than I imagined. I have a great comp (1.3ghz, 512mb, GF4 ti4200) and it chugs very, very badly in decently large battles. I turned the sound quality to low and the fauna off and still nothing. I'm sort of worried. What should I upgrade?
Lord Aeon
08-22-2002, 02:51
Quote Originally posted by SattP:
The game is great. The campaign has be a bit confused, it's much deeper than I imagined. I have a great comp (1.3ghz, 512mb, GF4 ti4200) and it chugs very, very badly in decently large battles. I turned the sound quality to low and the fauna off and still nothing. I'm sort of worried. What should I upgrade?[/QUOTE]
I had this problem originally, and all i needed to do was to turn off anti-aliasing in my vidcard options (customize my desktop/setting/advanced etc.), lowered all the settings to enhance performance, and made sure the "X MB for textures in PCI mode" setting was at its lowest.
Then it worked fine, even at 1280 x 1024.
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
Ii Naomasa
08-22-2002, 09:42
One early impression I have so far (from about almost five hours straight of playing...can't believe it's so late already!) is that you'll be spending a LOT more time on the strategic map than you did in Shogun.
My Shogun games consisted of battles with the strategic map helping me reach the next one. Here you'll actually be doing a good portion of your playing on the map, moving agents, sending your daughters off to get married, maneuvering your troops, and checking up on your generals to see if any are losing their loyalty or have developed any nasty habits in the past few years.
Turns are a year apiece, so income is steady and heirs develop quickly. I do like how your actions help determine the vices and virtues of your leaders. And I discovered the reason you may want to have a daughter marry and heir of your own. For some reason, I couldn't get a single country's princess to marry Charles I (maybe it had something to do with his perversion vice). I begun to fret over losing the bloodline (even though I had some eligble married generals), so I said 'screw it' and married off his ugliest sister to him (he had enough heretical vices already that I couldn't decrease his piety anymore anyway)...this, of course, allows him to breed...in an inbred fashion perfect for royalty.
Overall, it's been a blast so far. I must admit, I miss my little samurai, but maybe someday the series will come back and revisit its roots with all the cool additions it picked up along the way. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Papewaio
08-22-2002, 10:16
Is incest a vice for the eygptians or just being ultra-traditional in a pharoahistic sense?
Dionysus9
08-22-2002, 11:59
Any of you "doubters" should put your fears to rest, at least w/ respect to single player campaign. Far more interesting than Shoggy's SP campaigns.
A ton of units in multiplayer, and I'm afraid balance might be an issue. But they've done everything so well that I will wait to see how it plays.
Ii Naomasa
08-22-2002, 20:56
Papewaio, unfortunately, the Egyptians (nor any of the Muslim factions) don't get princesses so you can't manually make such (their heirs spawn Shogun style). They do get the incest vice from time to time at random (although so far my two Egyptian leaders who are that way have a father/daughter relationship as opposed to the more typical brother/sister deal often seen in ancient Egypt).
On a side note....my Egyptian history in the A.D. is limited, but I don't believe Egyptian leaders of the 12th century were that concerned about the whole Pharoah tradition given that they were decendents of invaders and not even descended from the weakened, Greek-based lines of the Roman period Egyptian royalty, much last any true lineage to pharaohs they might not have even been aware existed.
GAH!
How do you marry a muslim prince then? Can't marry into the Egyptian line or Turkish line, as they are muslim and have no hos!
So, they must marry the Infidel to pop babies?!? GAH! Osama would be rolling in his grave (if he were dead, that is)! Or do they automatically marry (or get a harem) when they ascend to the throne?
Vlad The Impaler
08-22-2002, 21:58
question: if a part of ur army is prisoner and u ransome them , they keep their experience?
i`m thinkin that u might want back some good units or if u capture valuable enemy unit u dont have any interest to send them back ( even for money ) to ur enemy
Vlad, the amount of ransom goes up with quality of troops and I believe valour level too.
So the better the troops you capture the more dosh will be offered to you, do you reckon you will be able to resist?
Same goes for your troops, will you really be willing to pay that much for your best troops?
Of course it all depends on how many units you have and if you are desperate for your men back.
DragonCat
08-22-2002, 22:20
Started as the Danes. Played about 3 hours late last night. The game is SO much better than STW (and I loved STW).
I have only had two battles (Sweden and Norway) and I won them both. Against Norway, I has heavily outnumbered, but I used all Vikings and my leader and put the bastids to rout by sweeping in from the flank with my King at the crucial moment! Oh ye gods, this is good!
And I agree with the comment that you will be spending a LOT more time on the strategic board. There is so much to do.
I have friends over tonight, so won't get to continue till tomorrow. But I can't wait!
And for those of you across the sea - its well worth the wait! Get all your work done now and save up some days off - you won't regret it!
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DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!
DarknScaly
08-22-2002, 22:21
I once got asked for 27k in a ransom - and i paid it... hard to lose a 9 star (fulle verything virtually and with awesome V&Vs) general and not want him back....
3 years later he captured and executed the Almohad "King" who had done him the dirty.
Pure bliss.
Vlad The Impaler
08-22-2002, 23:05
uffff! i cant wait another 2 weeks until the games comes in Romania ;
i read all day ur posts and i cant wait to imapale some infidels http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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One sword to behead the white ruler sitting on the white throne in the Vatican.
One sword for the ruler who will come and unite us under the sign of the cross
with broken arms. Eleven swords to behead eleven lords and rulers of the land
united under the blue banner. A hundred swords to defend our southern
boundaries against black plague and half moon.
And one axe for me to defend my stronghold, and may I call this axe, "Bane of
Christendom" soon.
Kraellin
08-22-2002, 23:46
the highest ransom i've been told i must pay was about 4700 florins...i just said, 'nah, kill the b*st*rd, i aint payin that.' it was my king ;)
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
DarknScaly
08-23-2002, 00:00
Keep an eye on your loyalty ratings when your king dies - even though your generals can remain loyaly you may well find the units under them are brewing for revolution - especially on harder settings.
Not sure if failing to ransom back a king makes this worse - but worth checking. Often a lot of stuff is going on "in the background" and you dont notice (and it works out fine) or it all suddenly explodes in your face and you go "WTH WAS THAT ABOUT?!"
Lord Aeon
08-23-2002, 19:55
A couple of weird/interesting things happened in my last game.
I played as the English. First off, ports alone don't generate any income. You have to build a shipyard and a trade post or merchant, build ships, and set up a trade route from your cities to the target cities. No more 'just build a port and pull in income'. The trading is affected by the ability of your trade post (which can be upgraded), how good your ships are, what goods you have to trade, the governor's acumen, etc.... I musta built a port in evrey single English province and got no income from any of them.
Another thing that happened was that i couldn't get to Ireland. Perhaps to be able to do this i must have needed to build a fleet and get over there or something... any ideas on this?
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
DarknScaly
08-23-2002, 19:58
you need a port in the departure province and a clear sea-route to the destiantion province.
eg. If your army is in wales and has a port, and you have a ship in the irish sea, and that ship is not blockaded, then you can hop your army over into ireland.
Just bear in mind you cant get it OUT of ireland until you build a port ;-)
Lord Aeon
08-23-2002, 20:01
Hey, thanks.
BTW, is it me, or is the Pope a little overly friendly to the English early in the game? He kept handing me florins at the end of the year for "great achievements" (didn't do much of anything) and is to this minute still trying to marry his daughters to me almost constantly...
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
Kraellin
08-23-2002, 20:03
apparently you have to have a fleet (can be one ship) in each sea zone of the trade route. this is more symbolic in nature than actual moving ships. this simulates that ships are having to use this route back and forth and that it can be interrupted by an intervening faction wiping out one of those fleets and thus destroying your route. thus, you're going ot need to build enough fleets to make the route and warships to protect the route. at least, that's how the manual states it. havent tried this myself yet, but i'm right at that point where i'm about to try it out.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Vlad The Impaler
08-23-2002, 20:49
Lord Aeon the Pope have daughters ? i know about some Popes that doesnt respect the rule of catholic church to not be married but if this appears i a game it looks like a habit
intriguing
MagyarKhans Cham
08-23-2002, 20:50
at least now its clear what those "great achievments" were... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Lord Aeon
08-23-2002, 22:01
I may have misspoke... i think it was the Pope's daughter... but onr eflection i think it was maybe the daughter of the Holy Roman Emperor, lol.
But the Pope kept giving me cash early in the game for building my army and taking provinces.
Sorry for the misinformation.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Lord Aeon
08-23-2002, 23:02
One other thing i'd like to comment on is the fact that the CPU spies on you regularly, and espionage is much more important than it was in STW. The CPU, on occasion, seems particularly well informed about my plans to invade. I wonder whether the 'advanced CPU knowledge' deal with respect to turns is still in MTW.
I also wonder whether the "shinobi rush" is still possible, or whether the CPU defends effectively against it. I'm at work now, so i can't test it anytime soon. Can anyone verify?
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
DarknScaly
08-23-2002, 23:42
Dumping in lots of spies at once can cause problems to the AI - problem is that expect to lose a LOT of spies doing it.
THe AI seems very prepared to spy on you, counter spy and assassinate - particularly on harder levels.
It can also backfire badly on you - if there are constant revolts in a province and the Ai general there wins - you suddenly find that you've just made the AI a rock-solid kick-ass general
DragonCat
08-24-2002, 00:47
The Danish King is VERY frisky. I have heirs and princesses all over the place. Funny thing is, my primary heir is a DRUNKEN COWARD. I fell out of my chair laughing.
I am looking for a suitable battle for him to take part in now LOL. HE won't be home for the holidays!!!!!
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DragonCat
. . . on the prowl!
"I also wonder whether the "shinobi rush" is still possible, or whether the CPU defends effectively against it. I'm at work now, so i can't test it anytime soon. Can anyone verify?"
Okay, please educate me. What is the shinobi rush? I don't believe that was a tactic I used in Shogun.
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"Evil is easy, and has infinite forms."
i think it refers to making ALOT of shinobi and sending them all to one province to de-stabalise it...
Kraellin
08-24-2002, 09:21
i believe the various christian churches didnt adopt a policy of celibacy for the clergy until about the 16th or 17th century...well after this game takes place.
yes, the shinobi rush or tactic is to build tons of shinobi instigators and disrupt loyalty in someone else's province, have the rebels then whittle down the controlling armies, where you then simply walk in and take the place for little to no risk.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Lord Aeon
08-24-2002, 20:29
Regarding spies:
First off, the spy rush is still there, but halfway decent counterintelligence can snuff it out quickly. Whoever said we should be prepared to lose a lot of spes trying to rush was right on the money. It seems also that the influencing factors - proximity to faction leader, religious fervor/association, general's attributes, etc. - can be manipulated easily and in different ways and will probably keep the spy rush from having any major impact.
It seems as though i have been able catch more than one spy in a province each year when i have multiple spies, emissaries, and assassins in the province. Maybe i'm way off base... Can anyone confirm this?
In addition to this, it is necessary to tech up a bit (especially if starting in the early period) to even get spies in the first place. That said, it's still possible to carry on the spy rush, but some serious thought has to go into its strategic importance and into whether it's even worth the time, effort, and florins.
One more thing: has anyone successfully revealed a negative vice of an enemy general? I've been trying, but my spies haven't been able to do it yet. Has anyone seen this?
Oh yeah, and instead of dealin with problematic generals (on your side) - in situations where stripping of title might cause more problems (or maybe already has) and assassination is difficult - don't hesitate to use that spy to frame him for treason. Seems to work a bit better than assassination.
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
DarknScaly
08-24-2002, 20:51
Yup you can catch multiple spies and assassins in one turn - seen up to 5 in one go in one province...all fromt he same faction too ;-)
Negative Vices:
Thr "revealing" thing is actuallya bout "SECRET" vices and in many ways its a two-step thing:
Say that an enemy general is a SECRET heretic. You can use your spy to uncover this so that he is now just a "Heretic".... but nothing may happen fromt his at all!
However, if you now send in an inquisitor he will ahve a far higher chance of burning that general for heresy..because his "secret" is no longer a "secret".
-- Its a bit different with other aspects - say "secret incest" - revelaing this may well lower the loyalty of the province run by that general, which could mean a revolt or needing less spies in that province to stir a revolt.
You can also uncover "secret vices" that you know will cause a command, loyalty, piety hit on that general - thus either making them "less of a general" or making them easier to inquisit etc.
Bottom line though - if its not "secret" its not hidden and you cant reveal it - as everybody allready knows.
Hope that helps.
Lord Aeon
08-24-2002, 21:29
Right, i meant to say "secret vices", since a vice is inherently negative... lol.
But you're right, apparently there has to be a secret vice there to releal in the first place. I have not yet been able to reveal a secret vice on any enemy general... and believe me, i tried. I was just trying to figure out what happens when it does occur...
Will the vices and virtues list for that general have a listing for "secret vice"? Or is it a trial and error type thing?
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"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
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