View Full Version : problems with medival total war
redfirestone
08-24-2002, 08:40
After playing the game for three days, here are some problems about the game.
1. No unit attribute table, so you won't know how units match against other. You don't know how much each unit cost, support cost, attack, amorer... These kind of things are important for the kings to know, mind you.
2. In the turn base map, there is no way to tell who control what. Unless you flood all the provinces with spies or something. Yeah, you don't get the throne room map in shogun. Again, these kind of things are important for strategy games.
3. There is no "The Way of the Daimyo" kind of history material with this game. What a big disappointment! "The Way of the Daimyo" really sets the mood for playing shogun. The medieval manual is pretty crappy, IMO. But they do have a nice foldout.
4. The game sometimes crashes to the desktop when starting a new campaign and read the intro text. However, I haven't have a crash yet when playing in turn base or real time battle.
5. Is this game too big? There are a lot of provinces and you need to take over 2/3 of the land to win. I am playing English and right now I have most of Western Europe under my control. It is really boring, I properly won't finish it. The game also take a very long time to build up good units. Maybe it will be diffenient when I play the late periord fulll campign.
In conclusion, I am a bit disappointed about this game. It seems like they added a lot more units and make the map a lot bigger, but is it more fun? To me, the answer right now is no.
DarknScaly
08-24-2002, 08:52
how else would you know whats going on in other provinces unless you have a "spy" there?
As to not finishing half completed campaign:
Then you haven't even started the difficult part - maintianing an expansive empire. Evenw ith the biggest army, highest income and highest tech level it doesn't mean you can conquer everywhere... especially witht he full AI on expert level...your problems, and the real challenge, are only just beginning. ;-)
(btw - have they changed the "Win scenario" so that you can win by just conquering 2/3ds of the provinces? it used to be conquer every province to win.)
BarryNoDachi
08-24-2002, 11:48
i believe there was a few different senarios that you could choose that all allowed you to win the game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
------------------
Clan Kenchikuka (http://www.totalwar.org/kenchikuka)
Agreed with Number 1. It's really annoying how hard it is to compare units. Even with spies, I have no idea in hell how my units stack up against my enemies' units.
I also think that the current system of rebellions is a little bit on the tedious side. France went to war with me and built a single ship on a sea route controlled by me. It became disputed and disrupted trade in my lands. My income went down from 10k to 3k and 2 provinces revolted while many were on the verge of revolting. After I destroyed the ship, loyalty shot up again.
I like the complexity a lot but I think a few more added features would be better. For example, when choosing a governor, we could state our preference or something and the computer automatically recommends a few generals that fit the criteria and let us choose between them. It's way easier than searching through all stacks for somebody with high acumen and dread.
A quick panel for V&V's with a list of new ones would help as well.
[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 08-24-2002).]
Funky Phantom
08-24-2002, 15:05
I know what he means about the throne room, in STW it has a map which shows you the whole country, i used to use that to spy on rivals who were up the other end of the country and to see whos getting strong...
Im really gonna miss the throne room http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
As for that film at the start, i just skipped it most of the time, it was kinda cool, but not a vital element of the game. I found it annoying that every faction got the same ending film, bar that statue bit, i think it was plain lazy for them not to have made different films for different clans, i hope this isnt the case for MTW...
Quote Originally posted by redfirestone:
1. No unit attribute table, so you won't know how units match against other. You don't know how much each unit cost, support cost, attack, amorer... These kind of things are important for the kings to know, mind you.
[/QUOTE]
The unit stats are there if you really want them.
File is:
crusaders_unit_prod11.txt
And for buildings:
crusader_build_prod13.txt
They are simply too big to put onto paper, open with Excel and you will have all the unit info you want. Actual combat stats are about column W.
Any other info you want or any help with files then ask away.
I also seriously suggest you take DD's point about the game only just starting when you have half the map as so many people are struggling to keep their empires intact. Also try playing at highest difficulty level with Turks or Spanish. Good Luck if you do http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Dark Phoenix
08-24-2002, 17:59
I dont have the game yet but there was a trick in Shogun were if you held a spy over a province it would show who it belonged to. They may have got rid of this for MTW though.
------------------
"DP is correct" - Shiro
-----------------------
We may have years, we may have hours,
but sooner or later, we push up flowers
Papewaio
08-24-2002, 18:01
Similar to the one where you can find out where the heir is by trying to bribe units and waiting till you get told you cannot bribe the unit because it is led by a heir.
[This message has been edited by Papewaio (edited 08-24-2002).]
DarknScaly
08-24-2002, 18:35
Quote Originally posted by Funky Phantom:
I know what he means about the throne room, in STW it has a map which shows you the whole country, i used to use that to spy on rivals who were up the other end of the country and to see whos getting strong...
Im really gonna miss the throne room http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
[/QUOTE]
yeah but they didnt have geosynchronous spy sateliites in medieval times...
Quote Originally posted by DarknScaly:
yeah but they didnt have geosynchronous spy sateliites in medieval times...
[/QUOTE]
No, but when one group conquered an area, everyone else in the continent found out about it. You don't need spy sats for that, silly. It's practically announced by the conqueror because they were always like, "OMG LOOK AT ME I JUST TOOK FRANCE HAHA I AM SO COOL!" (In a medieval phrasing of course.) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
The same people who are giving you reports like "Germany has the strongest armies in all of Europe!" are the same people who keep a constantly updated world map for you to keep track of the world with. Alas, it appears in MTW that map was lost or stolen. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Funky Phantom
08-24-2002, 20:04
Quote Originally posted by DarknScaly:
yeah but they didnt have geosynchronous spy sateliites in medieval times...
[/QUOTE]
And they did in the medieval japan? :P
I remember that spy trick as well, they didnt give you much advantage though, so im not bothered whether theyre in MTW or not http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
DarknScaly
08-24-2002, 20:12
Quote Originally posted by JRock:
No, but when one group conquered an area, everyone else in the continent found out about it. You don't need spy sats for that, silly. It's practically announced by the conqueror because they were always like, "OMG LOOK AT ME I JUST TOOK FRANCE HAHA I AM SO COOL!" (In a medieval phrasing of course.) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
The same people who are giving you reports like "Germany has the strongest armies in all of Europe!" are the same people who keep a constantly updated world map for you to keep track of the world with. Alas, it appears in MTW that map was lost or stolen. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif[/QUOTE]
Assuming they even knew where france was of course - or if they had a map at all...and if they were telling the truth!
Of course if you sent a spy there you could find out for yourself, along with what armies were there, what they were building, plans they ahd for attacking other areas and factions...
But that'd be silly to add that as a gameplay feature wouldn't it? Its far eaiser and far more fun if we just give all that info away for free without effort and "shallow" the game a bit.
Or you just use a cheat to uncover the entire map - after all, we didn't buy the game to play it.
Lord Aeon
08-24-2002, 21:04
[ Quote Originally posted by redfirestone:
After playing the game for three days, here are some problems about the game.
1. No unit attribute table, so you won't know how units match against other. You don't know how much each unit cost, support cost, attack, amorer... These kind of things are important for the kings to know, mind you.
2. In the turn base map, there is no way to tell who control what. Unless you flood all the provinces with spies or something. Yeah, you don't get the throne room map in shogun. Again, these kind of things are important for strategy games.
3. There is no "The Way of the Daimyo" kind of history material with this game. What a big disappointment! "The Way of the Daimyo" really sets the mood for playing shogun. The medieval manual is pretty crappy, IMO. But they do have a nice foldout.
4. The game sometimes crashes to the desktop when starting a new campaign and read the intro text. However, I haven't have a crash yet when playing in turn base or real time battle.
5. Is this game too big? There are a lot of provinces and you need to take over 2/3 of the land to win. I am playing English and right now I have most of Western Europe under my control. It is really boring, I properly won't finish it. The game also take a very long time to build up good units. Maybe it will be diffenient when I play the late periord fulll campign.
In conclusion, I am a bit disappointed about this game. It seems like they added a lot more units and make the map a lot bigger, but is it more fun? To me, the answer right now is no. [/QUOTE]
This is a case of someone who's been overwhekmed by the game. Perhaps half expected to jump in and rule the world in 20 turns or less. Yet in the interest of keeping this from becoming a flame, i will try to help you:
1. The cost of the unit and quite a bit of extra information about the unit is avalaiable by hovering your cursor over the unit in the training screen and by right clicking on the unit icon. This will tell you the cost, upkeep, and general strengths and weaknesses of each unit, e.g. strong charge, vulnerable to missiles, armored, etc.. But you should already know this much; they don't call it a "manual" for nothing.
Once the unit is created, you'll know it's valour level. You can only know the makeup of your enemy's army by either having agents placed in your enemy's province or by setting up border forts (the step up from towers) in an adjacent province. Again: manual.
2. You can absolutely tell who owns what in the strategic map. The little map in the upper left hand corner tells you (by color code) who owns which province on the part of the map your units have visited to "open it up". A good way to know what's going on beyond that is to send strategic units (princesses are great for this) on a tour around the world. (This manual thing is getting redundant) Want more info? Open up trade routes. Once you sort of open the map up, you can simply hover your cursor over any province and the game will inform you as to whom it belongs.
3. What might help here is that there is some background on the era and on your faction's position in that era as you go through the setup for the game. Failing that, i guess you could just read a book. They still make those, y'know... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
4. Don't know what to tell ya. Hasn't happened to me, but maybe you should try reading the "read me" or checking out the tech section of the site.
5. You should take the game off easy difficulty.
Well, that's about as far as i'm willing to go. Good luck to you. Hope you find a way to enjoy this great game.
------------------
"You have offended my family, and you have offended a Shaolin temple."
Ii Naomasa
08-24-2002, 21:08
Quote 1. No unit attribute table, so you won't know how units match against other.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's just me not coming from a heavy war gaming background, but I don't bother looking at these charts even when their included. Part of the fun, to me anyway, is the vagueness. I spy out a province and see he was some peasants and what look like fairly weak cavalry I've never run into before. So I get a little reckless and go in and find myself being slaughtered by these horsemen. As much as intelligence is important, there have always been surprises in war, with one side going 'what the hell are they using?'.
Quote 2. In the turn base map, there is no way to tell who control what. [/QUOTE]
I kind of like this. Shogun's throne room map always felt like cheating when I was looking at it (it would've been nice had the potential to be slightly inaccurate...then it would've been based on rumors).
Quote 3. There is no "The Way of the Daimyo" kind of history material with this game. [/QUOTE]
While I would have liked to have seen something like this, I'm not disappointed it didn't have it. MTW covers a lot more time and space and a work that covered it all in brief would've probably been a simplistic overview anyway.
Quote The medieval manual is pretty crappy, IMO. [/QUOTE]
After what we got for an original North American Shogun manual, I'm not complaining. It does its job well. It's a little spartan, but at least it covers most of the basics. An index would be nice (especially when one is first trying to figure out how naval transportation works http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ), but it's an improvement, as least for us Yanks.
Quote 5. Is this game too big? There are a lot of provinces and you need to take over 2/3 of the land to win. [/QUOTE]
I will admit that it would be sort of fun to have an in-between game scoring rule...perhaps something similar to Europa Universalis, where your goal isn't an unrealistic conquer the world end, but instead to be the most prosperous. The selected goals game option is nice, but doesn't allow for the complete flexibility of EU's system.
If you're seeming like you're more or less rolling over everything and everyone back home's happy, then you probably need to bump up the difficulty. As DarknScaly has pointed out, at harder difficulties, once you start reaching provinces of different religions or who have a general disdain for your faction, maintaining a huge empire is difficult, especially when someone out there keeps killing all your specialized, morale/religion increasing units (I personally deserve it since my Muslim assassins were out killing off their obnoxious priest and their whoring princesses nearly from the start http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
While I do very much miss my samurai (being the Japanese history person I am), I do find some solace in my saracens and camels and wouldn't personally call MTW disappointing. Each to his own opinion, of course.
[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 08-24-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by DarknScaly:
stuff[/QUOTE]
Btw, you can still hold am emmisary over any province and read the tooltip to tell who owns it. Since this knowledge is available, it would be handy and nice if it was also available in a map room as was the case with Shogun. Simple request. Don't get your panties all in a bunch about it, bro.
You can still do that with emissaries.
As for right clicking on a unit-You could but the information given is not useful enough and slogging through that really big file is kinda hard. Sure, it says good attack but how good is it compared to another with good attack. When you play the game, you'll find out that different units with the same abilities listed there are not as strong as each other. Some are stronger than others.
TheLordofWater
08-25-2002, 01:04
you can do gloruis achivemnts victory and im the byzintines and i have no problem knowing who owns what i just watch my borders
ONE problem is the map is always flooded with assasins! a emmisary moves out of my province BAM hes gone
redfirestone
08-25-2002, 10:24
Well, here is my reply.
#1. I think they are just plain lazy for no including a unit stat table. Without that info I have no idea what is the difference between kataphraktoi cavalry and gotic kignts for example. Why do I have to dig around a text file to look up that info? BTW, crusaders_unit_prod11.txt look more like code that anything else even if I open it with excel. The right click on unit thing only give you very basic info, you still can't tell the diff between all the units.
#2. Personaly, I like the overview map of who controls what in Shogun. Kings ought to know that kind of info. I guess some of you just like to move millions of spy all over the map and watch them get killed. You can call that depth, but I call it tedious work without adding any fun factor. I personaly hate to manage those units, especially when you have a huge map.
#3 Without "The Way of the Daimyo" kind of history material means I am getting less value from this game than in shogun. The original shogun manual is crappy too, but "The Way of the Daimyo" makes up for everything and much more.
Playing a later campign seems to be a lot better because good units are poping out faster. So you don't have to rule Europe with archers, Mounted Sergants, and Fedual Men at arms (in other words, basic units). However, I still don't know how units stack up against each other. Right now I am suspecting a lot of units are similar and only diff is the name, picture icon, and which faction can pump them out. Of course, I might be wrong in this.
BTW, the auto manage tax function (click arrow on the mini map, a menu pops out) in the game is really useful. It will auto set the tax rate to highest without any chance of revolt.
Does it really matter what is going on across the iron curtain? Seriously man, get with the program! The English have conquered France, the Germans have conquered Italy, the pope is a puppet for a man who goes by the name of Kahn. It is all loony.
Look at my generals! I had an entire generations of loops. A generation. That is twenty five turns of nuts who rule England, France, Germany and Spain. They even decided to conscript sewer rats for their own private circus army. Pandemonium reigns because they can't decide if the black cat ate the full moon and the spoon is the ice of the sword.
This is obviously something that has sprung off of my civil war between the inbreds and the cowards. How I manage to keep it all together I don't know... agggh.... stop drowning the apes in the Mediterranean you fools we can use them as boats to swim for us...William... do not pick your nose with the claymore.. agh what did I just say.
I screwed around with excel this morning and managed to convert the data into something useful. I deleted a lot of data and managed to pare it down to the speeds, costs, melee, defense, charge, honor, armor and projectile type and ammo. I don't have anywhere to upload though. I started out not knowing anything about how to do it but managed to do it in the end. It only took less than an hour.
Quote Originally posted by andrewt:
I screwed around with excel this morning and managed to convert the data into something useful. I deleted a lot of data and managed to pare it down to the speeds, costs, melee, defense, charge, honor, armor and projectile type and ammo. I don't have anywhere to upload though. I started out not knowing anything about how to do it but managed to do it in the end. It only took less than an hour.[/QUOTE]
You shouldn't have had to do anything to the file to see all you needed. Just a bit of basic Excel skills, such as fixing top row and first column so you can scroll to whichever part of file and still have headers and units shown.
Did your file open up nicely into all seperate columns?
Redfirestone, if I havn't convinced you that the file is too big to expect CA to print then how about using the F1 key when you go into battle.
It lists your stats for units on screen with any Valour modifiers, so after a few battles you should know what each unit is capable of anyway.
It's something alot of people forget. Someone had to remind me of this very.. no.. extremly useful feature when I was playing the demo.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.