Mattel announces yet another recall

[Don Corleone]

So, I'm not calling for government intervention. It would be many days late and quite a few dollars short. The government has limited capability in matters such as these.

But there are feedback mechanisms that will make an impact. Frankly, I can't imagine anybody buying a Mattel toy at anything but rock-bottom prices, and their company isn't set up as a low-margin provider. They won't be able to stay in business long selling everything on fire sale. Ditto for Fisher Price, et. al.

I'm curious what you all think of this. Do you think Mattel and other toy manufacturers can survive this series of product recalls? Should they be having product recalls at all? Do you think Mattel et. al. are to blame for not doing a better job policing their overseas suppliers, or do you think the overseas suppliers bear most of the blame, even though they more than likely weren't violating any laws that they themselves are subject to.

Another wrinkle... I've heard a conspiracy theory that this was actually done intentionally by Chinese manufacturers. The reason? What do American brand names like Mattel provide in today's day and age? Innovative design... something Chinese manufacturers can copy, and a quality reputation. Many Chinese manufacturers wear two hats... supplier and competitor for American companies that provide consumer goods. By destroying Mattel and Fisher Price's reputation, it will be much easier for Chinese brand products to penetrate our markets.

I'm not hysterical, I'm just trying to consider all angles and I'm curious as to what the rest of you smarter than the average Orgahs have to think.

On a personal note, the Corleones instituted a policy in mid August. Any products for Jillian (toys, clothes, books, etcetera) that weren't manufactured in the USA, Mexico, Canada or Europe are banned from the house. Granted, most Americans don't have that luxury, but even if the price is higher, its worth it. I personally think its time to reshift the balance in favor of quality over quantity. I'll buy Chinese manufactured electronics and goods that Jillian doesn't have access to, until I see reason not to, but for the time being, its clear that for whatever reason, their quality standards do not meet my own with regards to my children.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I, for one, am glad that Mattel is admitting to the fact that they messed up - repeatedly. In this day and age we've seen it too many times where someone makes a colossal mistake (or mistakes) and then tries to cover it up, with the situation by that point a slimy, smelly mess.

Yeah, so the American toy companies are on life-support. But they're not dead, which is what they would be if they didn't recall and the bad news leaked. They'll survive; I don't think the public has much of a memory with this sort of thing.

[Xiahou]

I think if I were running one of these companies I'd be instituting a policy that requires random testing of all Chinese-made products by an independent 3rd party- something along the lines of the UL. They definitely need to take some proactive steps to restore consumer confidence.

[Blodrast]

Interesting stuff.
I don't know if the chinese manufacturers are to be blamed or not, because I don't know how Quality Control works over there. Yes, I realize that the American company can set some standards and some rules they have to meet, but it's not clear to me how that overlaps (if at all) with whatever local laws about safety exist, and with whatever internal house rules (again, regarding safety and QA) the Chinese manufacturer has.

However, regardless of what happens at the Chinese end, the American company has a clear (to me) duty to inspect the products according to their (and American) standards for safety and such.
The thing is, the way it works is that any corporation (and individuals, too) will try to get away with as much as possible while maximizing their profits, and they will tread the line between legal/not legal and quite often cross it if the benefits outweigh the potential losses.

In other words, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the local QA (if it exists at all) occasionally closed an eye to some batches that didn't quite meet the standards. After all, you're not a criminal unless you're caught, right ?

The "conspiracy theory" is an interesting angle, but again I don't know enough to be able to tell if their taking over is realistic enough. Usually, a brand establishes itself over many, many years, and it doesn't go down _that_ fast. Granted, maybe the Chinese companies are thinking long-term (quite possible), but it's not obvious to me that this might be an avenue they wish to pursue: after all, just being _the_ manufacturer, pretty much tying up the American company to their services, may well be good enough for them, and they may not have the expertise/creativity/experience to actually take its place and realisticall fill the gap.

Well, my mostly uninformed two cents, I guess.

[CrossLOPER]

It's funny because all of you think that your stuff was and is now going to be safe.

[Don Corleone]

Well, CrossLOPER, you're correct in that there's no way I could know that a toy is safe. It's all a game of probabilities. But if Lego manufactures their toys domestically in Denmark, the odds of getting a toy that violates safety standards drop dramatically then if I buy a toy they had manufactured in Vietnam, which has no local safety standards. Sure, it costs more to buy products manufactured in Western countries, but the odds of overall product safety increase when the goods are produced in a country that actually has product quality standards, as opposed to being manufactured in a country that has none and the products are then exported to one that does.

[Papewaio]

Another wrinkle... I've heard a conspiracy theory that this was actually done intentionally by Chinese manufacturers. The reason? What do American brand names like Mattel provide in today's day and age? Innovative design... something Chinese manufacturers can copy, and a quality reputation. Many Chinese manufacturers wear two hats... supplier and competitor for American companies that provide consumer goods. By destroying Mattel and Fisher Price's reputation, it will be much easier for Chinese brand products to penetrate our markets.

I'm not hysterical, I'm just trying to consider all angles and I'm curious as to what the rest of you smarter than the average Orgahs have to think.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/08/13/china.toymaker.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

A very cunning plan indeed... I can see the CEO making a huge gain out of this one, as long as his eldest burns the paper money...



On a personal note, the Corleones instituted a policy in mid August. Any products for Jillian (toys, clothes, books, etcetera) that weren't manufactured in the USA, Mexico, Canada or Europe are banned from the house.


What no Aussie or Kiwi goods? :drama2:

[lars573]

Well, CrossLOPER, you're correct in that there's no way I could know that a toy is safe. It's all a game of probabilities. But if Lego manufactures their toys domestically in Denmark, the odds of getting a toy that violates safety standards drop dramatically then if I buy a toy they had manufactured in Vietnam, which has no local safety standards. Sure, it costs more to buy products manufactured in Western countries, but the odds of overall product safety increase when the goods are produced in a country that actually has product quality standards, as opposed to being manufactured in a country that has none and the products are then exported to one that does.
Actually the lego group has factories in many nations. According to Wiki Lego is manufactured in Denmark, the US, Mexico, and the Czech republic.


Oh and Don Fisher-Price is Mattel. Just like Playskool is Hasbro. In the US there are really only a few toy companies that sell toys for children. The biggest two are Hasbro and Mattel and their subsidaries. Mattel is the parent company of Fisher-Price, Tyco R/C, Matchbox, and Hotwheels. Hasbro has about 20 different names it realses products under. They bought up just about every US toy company in the 90's. The only ones they didn't were the ones Mattel got.

Hasbro's brands are;

Avalon Hill
Claster Television
Coleco
Galoob
Kenner
Maisto
Milton Bradley
Parker Brothers
Playskool
Selchow and Righter
Tiger Electronics
Tonka
Wizards of the Coast
Wrebbit

The only other toy companies are McFarlane toys and Bandai's US division.

[HoreTore]

Bah, they outsourced without regard to their loyal workers just to stuff more money into their own pockets. I say let them burn. Horribly.

[Ronin]

ohhh for Christ´s sake....

i´m getting kind of tired of people walking around on tip-toes like kids are made of bone china or something...

we were all kids once.....we all played with toys that were full of lead paint, had dangerous parts that could be swallowed or put someone´s eye out, and did a lot of stupid things on the street that our parents would be none too happy about... and guess what? nobody I know ever died or had any problem with it...

nowadays people raise their kids like they are greenhouse flowers and can´t be exposed to anything...and then act surprised when the kids grow up and are allergic to absolutely everything!

we need these little dangers out there people!...they´re like putting a little chlorine in the gene pool every once in a while.


*uhm.....maybe I shouldn´t post before having the first cup of coffee in the morning.*

[Beirut]

Nowadays people raise their kids like they are greenhouse flowers and can´t be exposed to anything...and then act surprised when the kids grow up and are allergic to absolutely everything!


Choo godit, baby. Dem's da fax. ~:smoking:

[rory_20_uk]

First off the trailer park mothers are going to be so offended by this they might drop their cigarette in horror and spill the beer. Outraged that their child might be mixing lead in paint along with teh carcinogens they inhale every day they do to a toy shop.

Here one of a few things happen:


They indignantly swop brands to a different susiduary
They try to buy something that isn't owned by the bog two and give up
They find something else, and realise perhaps the danger doesn't warrant the cost after all


There are many more significant risks in the world than the possibility that if their child decided to eat all the paint off their toys they might transiently have high lead levels. fillings in the UK are still ercuray / tin amalgam. Apparently that's fine.

And this much fuss over this. How much fuss in the USA about the food chrisis in zimbabwe? (does the average citizen know where that is?)

~:smoking:

[Don Corleone]

I see. So Ronin, Beirut, and Rory... your point is just shut up and keep spending? I shouldn't be interested in trying to find better quality products for my children, I should just be happy to fork over for whatever Mattel chooses to put up on the shelf and keep my wallet open and my mouth shut?

Funny, I never would have figured the three of you for corporate tools.

[rory_20_uk]

I am against the hysteria at such a miniscule risk, one that is less than many others that parents expose their children to without need.

I think that generally the toys that these companies produce stifle children's imaginations and should be avoided. My post never suggests that anyone should purchase this rubbish.

~:smoking:

[Ser Clegane]

I have to agree with Don here.

Why should this be tolerated? Sure there might be worse things, but that logic hardly helps when it comes to improving anything.
If there isn't a public outcry about this - even if it might seem exaggerated - things simply will not change.

I'd rather prefer not to have toxic ingredients in toys, I am also quite happy that the use of toxic pesticides has been reduced in the past and that we are phasing out of mercury plants for chlor-alkali production.
Sure, generally people also survived before we had these improvements, but that does not change the fact that people were negatively effected in their health (even if you personally do not know any).

Ronin has certainly a point about pampering children too much, but I think there is a bit of a difference between not letting your kid play outside because it might get in touch with some germs and trying to reduce your kid's exposure to toxic materials.

The amalgam comparison is not really helpful here. For the fillings it has been shown that they don't actually set enough mercury free to be a hazard (which does not mean that mercury is not quite unhealthy). Unless the same has also been shown for the lead in the toys this example is comparing apples to oranges.

Apart from that I did not know that it was mainly trailer park moms who bought plastic toys...

[rory_20_uk]

If mercuary is spilled in a classroom wooden bench, the bench has to go - that's how toxic it is supposed to be - except in teeth.

Considering the effects of mercuary are far worse than lead, and the length of times fillings are in the mouth, children are going to have to gnaw at lots of toys.

Are they?

What cases of poisoning have there been? Any child anywhere been adversely affeted by this, or is it a scare with no substantive evidence?

So, we need to do some studies where children are fed pain to see whether it is adversely affecting their health in the quantities noted to be on parity.

My example was more to show that whilst such things as smoking around children is fine, and nothing is done if parents drink, smoke or do drugs when their children are in utero, a theoretical risk can cause such uproar.

~:smoking:

[Ser Clegane]

If mercuary is spilled in a classroom wooden bench, the bench has to go - that's how toxic it is supposed to be - except in teeth.

There is quite a difference between an amalgam and pure mercury

Here is something on the effects of mercury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_disease)

As the amalgam does not actually release the mercury in relevant amounts, amalgam fillings are still widely used.

Here is something about lead paint (http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/leadinfo.htm#health)

[Don Corleone]

Actually the lego group has factories in many nations. According to Wiki Lego is manufactured in Denmark, the US, Mexico, and the Czech republic.


Oh and Don Fisher-Price is Mattel. Just like Playskool is Hasbro. In the US there are really only a few toy companies that sell toys for children. The biggest two are Hasbro and Mattel and their subsidaries. Mattel is the parent company of Fisher-Price, Tyco R/C, Matchbox, and Hotwheels. Hasbro has about 20 different names it realses products under. They bought up just about every US toy company in the 90's. The only ones they didn't were the ones Mattel got.

Hasbro's brands are;

Avalon Hill
Claster Television
Coleco
Galoob
Kenner
Maisto
Milton Bradley
Parker Brothers
Playskool
Selchow and Righter
Tiger Electronics
Tonka
Wizards of the Coast
Wrebbit

The only other toy companies are McFarlane toys and Bandai's US division.

Thank you Lars. I had no idea the toy industry had achieved such horizontal integration.

Pape, I didn't say I believed the conspiracy theory, I said I had heard it proposed (by an economist on McNeil Lehrer, actually). I believe the individual who comitted suicide did so in response to pressure from local party officials. There's nothing to say that they weren't leaning on him publicly, and privately continuing to encourage such behavior. I've never seen 'manufactured in Australia or New Zealand' stamped on any product for sale anywhere, but should I find one, given your own stringent consumer safety standards, I believe I'd be confident in purchasing them.

Personally, my best guess is that in China, they're scratching their heads and wondering what all the fuss is about (much like Ronin, Beirut and Rory). They don't have these sorts of standards on products manufactured for domestic sale and philosophically, probably aren't even on the same page. To them, quality means the toy works or it doesn't, and even then, so long as the failure rate meets some internal ppm rating, they're happy and don't care. Don't forget, they're offering a huge discount on the manufacturing. I don't 'blame' Chinese manufacturers, because I don't think this is their issue. I blame importers that ought to know better. The value they provide is the quality inspection of their products and they've fallen down on the job.

As for Rory's suggestion that we force feed a few test groups of children varying dosages of lead paint and compare them to a control group, all I have to say is your reasoning is right in line with what I have come to expect from medical professionals and is why I avoid the doctor and the shylock with equal fear and dread.

I am all but certain extensive studies have been performed on the detrimental affects of ingested lead on the physiological development of humans. Give me some time at lunch and I'll see what I can come up with. As far as that goes, I don't have any hard studies available that cadmium is really all that bad for us either, but I'm not about to start sprinkling it in my garden.

[Ronin]

I see. So Ronin, Beirut, and Rory... your point is just shut up and keep spending? I shouldn't be interested in trying to find better quality products for my children, I should just be happy to fork over for whatever Mattel chooses to put up on the shelf and keep my wallet open and my mouth shut?

Funny, I never would have figured the three of you for corporate tools.

No...my point is shut up and keep this nonsensical "OMG OMG ZEE CHILDREN ARE ALL GONNA DIE FROM THIS!" alarmist stuff off the news (we already have enough drivel being passed as news nowadays, no need to add to it).......like I said before, we all handled much worse growing up and we´re all still here.....you can´t put your kids in a bubble and handling these small "dangers" is actually part of the process of growing up.

And also corporate tool? moi?, no you should not "fork over for whatever Mattel chooses to put in the shelf"....stop buying their toys if you want...kids are over-indulged with toys anyway and it´s bad for them in my opinion....think back to your childhood and think how many toys you used to have.....I know i´m only 25 and the amount of toys kids have nowadays to even what I used to have is crazy....teaching your kids they can´t have everything they want is one of the most important services you´ll ever teach them.

[Don Corleone]

No...my point is shut up and keep this nonsensical "OMG OMG ZEE CHILDREN ARE ALL GONNA DIE FROM THIS!" alarmist stuff off the news (we already have enough drivel being passed as news nowadays, no need to add to it).......like I said before, we all handled much worse growing up and we´re all still here.....you can´t put your kids in a bubble and handling these small "dangers" is actually part of the process of growing up.

And also corporate tool? moi?, no you should not "fork over for whatever Mattel chooses to put in the shelf"....stop buying their toys if you want...kids are over-indulged with toys anyway and it´s bad for them in my opinion....think back to your childhood and think how many toys you used to have.....I know i´m only 25 and the amount of toys kids have nowadays to even what I used to have is crazy....teaching your kids they can´t have everything they want is one of the most important services you´ll ever teach them.

When I was a kid, we had corporal punishment in public schools. Should we reintroduce that, just to toughen the little buggers up? When I was a kid, bike helmets didn't exist. Sure, once or twice a year, a kid got a serious brain injury, but look at how much tougher all the rest of us wound up. Let's get rid of them too.

I just don't understand this whole "It was good enough for me" mentality. Yes, I agree, hysteria and alarm are overblown by a media intersted in selling its wares these days. But that doesn't mean we all transform ourselves into Luddites and live to safety standards from 1972, in the intersts of toughening our kids up.

Hell, my grandfather lost 3 of his fingers in a combine when he was 9, working in a hayfield in the summertime. Maybe we should bring back the golden era of child labor. After all, that generation made it through just fine. :dizzy2:

[Ronin]

When I was a kid, we had corporal punishment in public schools. Should we reintroduce that, just to toughen the little buggers up? When I was a kid, bike helmets didn't exist. Sure, once or twice a year, a kid got a serious brain injury, but look at how much tougher all the rest of us wound up. Let's get rid of them too.

I just don't understand this whole "It was good enough for me" mentality. Yes, I agree, hysteria and alarm are overblown by a media intersted in selling its wares these days. But that doesn't mean we all transform ourselves into Luddites and live to safety standards from 1972, in the intersts of toughening our kids up.

Hell, my grandfather lost 3 of his fingers in a combine when he was 9, working in a hayfield in the summertime. Maybe we should bring back the golden era of child labor. After all, that generation made it through just fine. :dizzy2:

the difference between what I defend and that you´re saying (in exaggeration)
is a little thing called "common sense"....exercise it and you´ll do fine...there´s a tiny difference in saying "if a toy was a good for me it will be good for my child" and "let´s ship them off to the coal mines!!" no?

for example I´m against corporal punishment in schools...but I think a parent should have the authority to smack his children if they misbehave....the problem is that nowadays the same people that are going all crazy over some toys are also trying to make so that a parent that uses that authority a criminal...talk about a slippery road

[Don Corleone]

the difference between what I defend and that you´re saying (in exaggeration)
is a little thing called "common sense"....exercise it and you´ll do fine...there´s a tiny difference in saying "if a toy was a good for me it will be good for my child" and "let´s ship them off to the coal mines!!" no?

for example I´m against corporal punishment in schools...but I think a parent should have the authority to smack his children if they misbehave....the problem is that nowadays the same people that are going all crazy over some toys are also trying to make so that a parent that uses that authority a criminal...talk about a slippery road

I don't argue that there's a certain amount of tyrrany afoot in the whole "do it for the children" mantra we hear incessantly in all walks of life. But even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day. Just because "child safety" has become a cause d'jour that operates beyond the bounds of reason sometimes is no reason to turn a blind eye to known health hazards, such as lead paint on toys. What's more, I'm funding this operation by paying Mattel for their sub-standard product (or not, by not buying their toys). For the three of you to say "lead paint, big deal..." seems to me to be encouraging that consumers not actually vote with their dollars, and I fail to see any compelling reason for your arguments.

[lars573]

Thank you Lars. I had no idea the toy industry had achieved such horizontal integration.
I actually forgot about Toybiz. They used to be the makers of all Marvel comics toys. Till Hasbro mad them a better offer. As for the corporate integration. When I was reading upon it most of the buy outs came about around the time of the economic down turn in the late 80's and early 90's.


Personally, my best guess is that in China, they're scratching their heads and wondering what all the fuss is about (much like Ronin, Beirut and Rory). They don't have these sorts of standards on products manufactured for domestic sale and philosophically, probably aren't even on the same page. To them, quality means the toy works or it doesn't, and even then, so long as the failure rate meets some internal ppm rating, they're happy and don't care. Don't forget, they're offering a huge discount on the manufacturing. I don't 'blame' Chinese manufacturers, because I don't think this is their issue. I blame importers that ought to know better. The value they provide is the quality inspection of their products and they've fallen down on the job.
Well the Chinese don't really make anything original. They just copy. They make knock-offs of pretty much anything. And not always to the same standards as the originals. I actually have a couple of these KO's designed for the Chinese market. And the quality is all over the place.


As for Rory's suggestion that we force feed a few test groups of children varying dosages of lead paint and compare them to a control group, all I have to say is your reasoning is right in line with what I have come to expect from medical professionals and is why I avoid the doctor and the shylock with equal fear and dread.

I am all but certain extensive studies have been performed on the detrimental affects of ingested lead on the physiological development of humans. Give me some time at lunch and I'll see what I can come up with. As far as that goes, I don't have any hard studies available that cadmium is really all that bad for us either, but I'm not about to start sprinkling it in my garden.
Well Don the problem I think is that US toy safety standards are more to avoid law suits than for childrens well being. Consider the drop test. Where you take the toy, and drop it 10 feet onto concrete. The purpose of the test is to see how it shatters. Some people, myself included, question the validity of such a test.

[Don Corleone]

Well Don the problem I think is that US toy safety standards are more to avoid law suits than for childrens well being. Consider the drop test. Where you take the toy, and drop it 10 feet onto concrete. The purpose of the test is to see how it shatters. Some people, myself included, question the validity of such a test.

This I actually consider to be a valid criticism, and I'm tempted to agree with it in the general sense. But in this particular case, Ser Clegnane's linked report disputes the idea that lead paint standards are solely to avoid costly lawsuits in the free-for-all that this the American legal torte system.

[lars573]

Granted. But in the whole mess was the paint full on lead based or just happened to have some in it? I've never heard one way or the other. Just "Oh noes teh lead!!!"

[Adrian II]

The Chinese poison train rides again. So far in The Netherlands, I believe we have had recalls of pesticide-ridden mattresses, poisonous baby napkins, accident-prone Landwind SUV's and lead-ridden paint jobs on car toys. Our emerging overlords have issues that go right back to the Great Helmsman's time when quality was bourgeois and security meant protection of the top echelon from foul-smelling ordinary citizens.

Still, the Ronin is right that we should not go into protective overdrive regarding our kids. I judge every case on its merits. My kids eat lead for breakfast and take a puff from my car's exhaust before they are off to school. Didn't hurt me none when we was young. :skull:

[Papewaio]

Problem with lead isn't that it isn't just either fatal or not.

There are direct links between an increased childhood ingestion of lead and a decrease in IQ.

So I do think it is dumb not to protect kids from something that is going to make them retarded.

[Ronin]

I believe we have had recalls of pesticide-ridden mattresses, poisonous baby napkins, accident-prone Landwind SUV's and lead-ridden paint jobs on car toys.

I think the LandWind was never actually sold in europe....it didn´t pass the basic safety tests.