The Battle of Cannae - 216 BC

[TWFanatic]

This is the first time I have undertaken the task of creating a historical battle for the general community (as opposed to myself). Thanks to abou’s historical battle threads from months ago, however, I have some idea of what the evolution of such work should look like, and therefore I owe thanks to him for unwittingly teaching me.

My two main sources for this battle are Polybius and Livy. The relevant sections of their books can be found here for Polybius (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/polybius-cannae.html) and here for Livy (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Livy/Livy22.html). The other, secondary and tertiary sources I have consulted are Rome by Nigel Rodgers, Cannae by Gregory Daly, Hannibal by Ernle Bradford, and various websites.

Please realize that everything here is an estimation, particularly the numbers which are based on the best possible information I have - much of which seems to conflict on numerous issues. Due to the fact that the EB map is lacking the river Aufidus, I will most likely set the battle on the eastern Spanish coast. I believe I have found an appropriate location. The “scrub” terrain, which normally borders rivers, will be replaced due to the fact that cavalry receives penalties on such terrain, and by all accounts the ground on which the clash took place heavily favored cavalry.

The battle will be on a 25:1 scale.




6,400 allied and Roman cavalry
80,000 allied and Roman infantry

96 Roman cavalry on right wing under Paulus: 1 unit of Equites (96)
160 Allied Cavalry on left wing under Varro: 1 unit of Equites Extraordinarii (54) and 1 unit of Hippeis (106)
912 Velites, 2 units of 228, 2 units of 229
912 Hastati, 2 units of 228, 2 units of 229
912 Principes, 2 units of 228, 2 units of 229
456 Triarii, 2 units of 114, 2 units of 115




10,000 cavalry
34,000 heavy infantry
6,000 light infantry

160 Numidian Cavalry on right wing under Maharbal: 2 units of 80
160 Gallic and 80 Spanish heavy cavalry on left wing under Hasdrubal: 2 units of Brihentin (80) and 1 unit of Iberi Lanceari (80)
400 African Infantry, 2 units of 200 Dorkim Lubim-Ponnim Mesoorianim.
320 Spanish Infantry, 2 units of 160 ?
160 Gallic infantry, 2 units of 80 Gaesatae
480 Gallic infantry, 3 units of 160 Botroas
160 Balearic Slingers, 2 units of 80
80 Numidian Skirmishers, 1 unit of 80

Varro and Hannibal will each have a bodyguard of 9 cavalrymen, thus making their respective units 10 strong. Paulus will be “included” in the equites unit on the right wing, meaning he will have no bodyguard. Mago will not either.

Now you may have noticed the question mark next to the Spanish Infantry. This is because I have not yet decided what units should represent them. I was thinking that the Dorkim Aloopim (Elite African Infantry) could represent Spanish with Roman equipment, or perhaps the Loricati Scutari (Iberian Heavy Infantry). Please voice your thoughts and opinions on this matter or on anything else you may think needs adjustment.

~:cheers:

[abou]

Personally, I think that anyone who does this battle is walking into a trap themselves. I find it doubtful that the battle could be done well enough in the RTW engine without crazy, a-historical experience bonuses and extensive scripting. I just think it is a bad move and have personally resolved to avoid it like the plague because I know of what a fan response would be like.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. My advice, however, is to look at another battle - the Battle of Metaurus could provide an interesting experience. Why not try that instead? It is lesser known, but was critical to Rome's continued existence.

[TWFanatic]

I've heard that said before, but it only made me more determined to go through with it. Besides, I've done so much research that turning back now would be nuts.

What is it about this battle that everyone finds so hard to represent? Every battle has something about it that would be impossible for RTW to reenact. Besides, I believe that the point of these battles is what would happen if YOU were in command. It does not have to go precisely as it did in reality.

I'll see soon enough whether or not you are right. Either I'll dip my head in shame over my bullheadedness or do a victory jig in your face. Either way, thanks for your opinion.



Now you may have noticed the question mark next to the Spanish Infantry. This is because I have not yet decided what units should represent them. I was thinking that the Dorkim Aloopim (Elite African Infantry) could represent Spanish with Roman equipment, or perhaps the Loricati Scutari (Iberian Heavy Infantry).
Well, I'm pretty sure that the Loricati Scutari would be fine for the Spanish Infantry, but now I'm questioning the African infantry. Apparently, so much of their equipment was Roman that one might confuse them for a body of Roman soldiers. For this reason, I was thinking about representing them with the Dorkim Aloopim. The unit's description also mentions that they were in the battle of Cannae, representing the Libyans and others armed and armoured with Roman equipment. On the other hand, I've never heard of them having carried javelins or swords. In fact, I thought they fought in a Hoplite-style phalanx with spears. Gah!:wall:

[Eduorius]

Well basically after Trebia and Trasieme the only ones that had Roman equipment were the Africans.

[TWFanatic]

Hello Eduorius! Thank you for gracing this thread with a response.
I will be using the same method you used in The Battle of Zama (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=81940) to differentiate between the central Roman legions and the Alae wings. The central Roman units will have higher experience than the Alae. I feel this will also help the Carthaginian center be pushed back more than the flanks, as it really was.


You might fancy that the Africans were for the most part a body of Romans from the way they were armed, they were so completely equipped with the arms, some of which they had taken at the Trebia, but the most part at Trasumennus.
Yup.:yes:

The Spanish infantry will be represented by Loricati Scutari and the Africans Infantry by Dorkim Aloopim. It wasn't that hard of a decision after reading the latter unit's description, which stated openly that the Africans who performed the pincer movement at the Battle of Cannae were represented by Dorkim Aloopim.:idea2:

Problem solved.:2thumbsup:

[TWFanatic]

At long last, after countless hours of testing and making tiny adjustments, I've done it. Unfortunately I have a problem with the battle description.

The description SHOWN is not at all the description that I wrote. It's a description of the Battle of Cannae alright, but I've never seen it before in all my life. I can't figure out why the game is replacing my description with its own. One thing I noticed is that when I change the name of the folder the info is kept in from "Cannae" to something else, it says there is no description at all. :dizzy2:

Anyone know what is going on here? :help:

[TWFanatic]

I changed the name of the battle and the folder it's kept in to "EBCannae," and the preliminary "EB" seems to have made it work for some reason.

*download removed*

[abou]

So I took a look at what you made. I didn't get a chance to play it, but only looked through the descr_battle. A few things that caught my eye:

- experience is way too high. I've limited myself to 3 chevrons at the most. In some cases I have increased armor, but that is in phalanx vs phalanx battles where the RTW engine could use a little work. And historically, the vast majority of the Roman units would have no experience at all since they were fresh levies.

- also, you can't have units that have a higher number of soldiers than are available in the huge setting. As a result, almost all of your Roman units will be drastically smaller than how you made them.

- cool that you got the date working though.

- if you want to see portraits and actual generals on the field rather than captains, you can go into the descr_battle and where it says "general" next to the name, replace that with "named character".

[TWFanatic]

Thank you for your comments, though I would have appreciated if you played the battle first, the reasons for which you may have seen if you did so.


- experience is way too high. I've limited myself to 3 chevrons at the most. In some cases I have increased armor, but that is in phalanx vs phalanx battles where the RTW engine could use a little work. And historically, the vast majority of the Roman units would have no experience at all since they were fresh levies.
I originally had experience for all the units low - 2-3 for the Carthaginian units and only one for Roman units (none for allied units) with the exception of the bodyguards, which had higher exp. I quickly realized that the battle was far too easy for Carthage and that the melee time was too short, so for the sake of gameplay and realism I increased experience of all units.


- also, you can't have units that have a higher number of soldiers than are available in the huge setting. As a result, almost all of your Roman units will be drastically smaller than how you made them.
If this was so, I was not aware of it, everything seemed normal to me. I'll go check after I eat lunch.


- if you want to see portraits and actual generals on the field rather than captains, you can go into the descr_battle and where it says "general" next to the name, replace that with "named character".
Thank you for that, I will remember it for next time.

[abou]

Do the units actually appear that big in battle? The unit cards when you are choosing armies may show it that big, but in battle they will be reduced.

Plus, I get a CTD when I try to play it.

[TWFanatic]

Well, I figured it out. You were right! I edited my EDU file to give principes and hastati unit sizes of 60 (240 large) and triarii 30 (120 on large) to reflect historical maniple sizes. That's why they showed themselves at full strength for me. I tried the battle with the vanilla EDU file and the hastati and principes units were 160 strong.

The battle of Cannae simply can't be represented on a 25:1 scale. You were right. I shouldve listened, now I've spent countless hours of time - all for naught. And it looked so good...:wall:

That's it for me with historical battles...

*download removed*

[abou]

Pft, don't give up. If I sounded harsh it is because I'm not going to treat you as a child. I'm going to tell you what you did right, what you did wrong, and how to fix it.

Try two Roman armies instead and just have the Carthaginians alone be playable.

[TWFanatic]

Nah I'm glad for the comments/suggestions, I need them.:help: I just didn't want to waist more time only to get let down again...

Two armies eh? I can't believe I haven't thought of that before. That way, I can have one under the command of Paullus and one under Varro. I'll try that.

cheers

[Geoffrey S]

Nah I'm glad for the comments/suggestions, I need them.:help: I just didn't want to waist more time only to get let down again...
Hey, just remember that it's never wasted time if you learn from your mistakes and don't repeat them!

Edit: and by the looks of things, you've only really been working on this for the last few days. Bear in mind that most of these battles, if done properly with scripting, take quite a lot longer to be made perfect. There's still plenty of time.

[Eduorius]

Giving my suggestion here. Havent played your Cannae, but well...

For a 1:25 scale the Romans must be

48 Velites
48 Hastati
48 Princepes
24 Triarii

If you multiply them by 25 and add them all that gives you a total of 5K for a Polybian legion.

Now what I mostly do for Roman armies is that instead of using 16 stacks for the infantry in a Consular Army, what I do is that I make the Velites of Allied Legion 1 and Legion1 merge together as I do with the ones in Legion 2 and Allied Legion 2.

What you get is similar to this.

.....................velites(96)..............................velites(96)..............
............hastati(48).............hastati(48)............hastati(48).............hastati(48)
princepes(48).........princepes(48).........princepes(48).........princepes(48)
..............triarii(24)................triarii(24)...............triarii(24)...............triarii (24)

Now if you are one of those that believe that the Triarii were not present in Cannae that battle stack is even easier and since this units are so small you can double the unit size of all the infantry to represent the 2 Consular armies present. Cavalry will not be a problem.

[TWFanatic]

I've been rather busy the past few days, but I will be getting back into this project tonight.


Hey, just remember that it's never wasted time if you learn from your mistakes and don't repeat them!
Very true.


and by the looks of things, you've only really been working on this for the last few days. Bear in mind that most of these battles, if done properly with scripting, take quite a lot longer to be made perfect. There's still plenty of time.
Add a week to that - I spent almost that just doing reasearch.

I've reformulated the armies:



Roman Left Wing: Consul Caius Terentius Varro

4,000 allied cavalry
40,000 allied and Roman infantry

10 Equites Consulares under Varro w/ 3 exp
160 Allied Cavalry, 1 unit of 54 Equites Extraordinarii and 2 units of 53 Hippeis
456 Velites, 4 units of 114, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp
456 Hastati, 4 units of 114, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp
456 Principes, 4 units of 114, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp
228 Triarii, 4 units of 57, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp



Roman Right Wing: Consul Lucius Aemilius Paullus

2,400 Roman cavalry
40,000 allied and Roman infantry

10 Equites Consulares under Paullus w/ 3 exp
96 Roman cavalry, 1 unit of 96 Equites w/ 1 exp
456 Velites, 4 units of 114, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp
456 Hastati, 4 units of 114, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp
456 Principes, 4 units of 114, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp
228 Triarii, 4 units of 57, central Roman legions w/ 1 exp



Carthage: The Army of Hannibal Barca

10,000 cavalry
34,000 heavy infantry
6,000 light infantry

10 Sacred Band cavalry under Hannibal w/ 3 exp
160 Numidian Cavalry on right wing under Maharbal, 2 units of 80 w/ 3 exp
160 Gallic Heavy Cavalry and 80 Spanish Heavy Cavalry on left wing under Hasdrubal, 2 units of 80 Brihentin w/ 1 exp and 1 unit of 80 Iberi Lanceari w/ 2 exp
400 African Infantry, 4 units of 100 Dorkim Aloopim w/ 2 exp
320 Spanish Infantry, 2 units of 160 Loricati Scutari w/ 2 exp
160 Gallic infantry, 2 units of 80 Gaesatae
480 Gallic infantry, 3 units of 160 Botroas w/ 1 exp
160 Balearic Slingers, 2 units of 80 w/ 2 exp
80 Numidian Skirmishers, 1 unit of 80 w/ 2 exp

I believe I caught all the over-sized units.

[LusitanianWolf]

Cool, cannae battle in EB :2thumbsup:

Hey, are you the same TWFanatic from the ERTW (Early Rome Total War) team?

[TWFanatic]

You the same Lustian from the ERTW team? ~;p Long time no see mate! :beam:

Shame the project died eh? It was so long ago though so I hardly even remember it. :dizzy2:

Cya around. :The end:

[TWFanatic]

Download: The Battle of Cannae (http://files.filefront.com/EBCannaezip/;8587732;/fileinfo.html)
Please note that you cannot simply extract it into your custom folder. This is because it will extract an unnecessary folder with the necessary folder in side of it. To install, simply open the zip folder then drop the folder inside of the zip folder into your Data/world/maps/battle/custom folder. I mention this because I have made such a mistake in the past with a historical battle I downloaded.

Disclaimers:

-I know the Consuls’ names were not Caivs Tertinivs Varro or Lvcivs Cornelivs Pavllvs, but EB does not have either of their true middle names.
-The armies may not seem centered at the start, but there is a reason for this: The Roman armies tend to shift to their left (your right) at the beginning of the battle.
-Abou was right (as always). This battle cannot be carried out as it historically was without heavy scripting. This battle has none, and thus the unpredictable movements of the disorderly CPU will not be entirely accurate. I hope you will enjoy it anyways. If anyone wants to add script to this battle, feel free.

[TWFanatic]

:feedback:

[LusitanianWolf]

As always, its not Lustian but Lusitan!!! :furious3: :laugh4:
Yes, too bad the project died. I didnt played RTW for times after it until I discovered EB. And almost never tryed to mod again.


About your historical battle, I have downloaded it and I'm realy wanting to try it ( its one of my fav ancient battles), but I cant play tonight, I'll try when I'll have time enought and say something after it.

[madmatg]

ive also downloaded and will be playing soon

[madmatg]

when i open EB i see EBCasse as a battle but it says please selest an item from the list like it does with the leftover Vanilla historical battles? any help?

[TWFanatic]

I assume you mean EBCannae.

Are you sure you put it in the correct directory? Remember that EB has a vanilla RTW folder and an EB folder. So when you are inside the Activision file, select your EB directory (might be named "Rome: Total War" or perhaps something else if you created a new folder for it). Once inside that, select EB then Data, and then you can follow the usual directory from there (world/maps/battle/custom).

I'm pretty sure that's the problem.

[madmatg]

HAHA! thank you that also explains why the formation packs dont seem to be working :dizzy2:

thank you sire!:2thumbsup:

[madmatg]

i got to play it today and it was good stuff!

[LusitanianWolf]

I have played it today and I loved it (even if the AI acted an little weird, bt what can we expect?)!!!!
Nice work TWF!!!!


Btw, you used to create some beautiful skins, have you done any one after ERTW?

[TWFanatic]

Ty for the kind words.

I made Antesignani for RTR, but I seem to have misplaced them.:oops:

[Barigos]

I think it is not quite right place to ask,but:
How do you get editor to work in EB?In RTW it works well,but in EB,when I choose a place for battle and try to start editing it shows me the main screen after loading bar is complete.Seems to me that I have to put some files somewhere,but I don't know what exactly I should do.May be here's a link to a guide "creating historical battles in EB" ?

[TWFanatic]

That happened to me when I made a mistake in descr_battle file after editing it out-of-game.