Owwwwwww well let's look at the bright side

[Fragony]

Half of the mosks in Great Brittain don't call for Jihad.

Hmmm I still feel bad, it's sounds better but it's the same thing. Hmmm.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2402973.ece

'Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.'

Oh really I am shocked.

'Many had their studies funded by local education authority grants'

Hey, just like home, lefties activily funding islamisation, somebody tell the usefull fools that the dhimma-award is a price you pay. But they probably know that but just can't survive without muslim votes anymore, how very Faust of them.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Doing fine England, really.

[rory_20_uk]

I hope you're not trying to discriminate are you? That's a sin that is. :furious3:

If hating the UK and plotting to kill people is part of their religion or culture, what can we do??

Half isn't too bad. I'm sure with enough grants we can increase the percentage.

~:smoking:

[InsaneApache]

?Half isn't too bad. I'm sure with enough grants we can increase the percentage.

~:smoking:

To 100%? :inquisitive:

[rory_20_uk]

To 100%? :inquisitive:

Heh, that was the implication ~;)

~:smoking:

[Don Corleone]

Half of the mosques in London?

I don't believe that. Everyone I know has assured me that only a tiny fraction of a splinter encourage violence in Islam.

Maybe 'shed blood for Islam' and 'kill all the infidels' are metaphorical terms.

Besides, the Times is a very, very, extremely right-wing newspaper that says what the government tells them to. Until I see an article in the Guardian that says the same thing, nobody can believe it.

[Lemur]

You're missing the real ray of sunshine:


It is not suggested that all British Muslims who worship at Deobandi mosques subscribe to the isolationist message preached by Mr ul Haq, and he himself suggests Muslims should only “shed blood” overseas.

See? It's only overseas. So as long as you stay on the west side of the Chunnel, you should be fine.

[Don Corleone]

Seriously now, where do the Deobandis line up in the whole Sunni/Shite split? Are they any relation to Wahabists?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And quite a few US Catholics favor chemical or barrier contraception and the judicial use of the death penalty despite the Church preaching against both. So, obviously, no congregation can be assumed to monolithically conform to the stated dictates of their church.

However....

On the whole I am rather happier with a church that preaches in favor of life than one which calls for blood. Obviously that must be discriminatory on my part.....:dizzy:

[Xiahou]

I know it makes me a racist, but I've always felt that if someone is trying to immigrate to your country all the while claiming you are a corrupt, evil society that needs to be destroyed.... maybe you shouldn't let them in. :shrug:

Edit:
I can imagine the immigration interviews:

So, what do you offer our country Mr. Immigrant?
Death to the infidels!
I see, well we have plenty of infidels here- you should do just fine. Welcome aboard!

[Don Corleone]

I know it makes me a racist, but I've always felt that if someone is trying to immigrate to your country all the while claiming you are a corrupt, evil society that needs to be destroyed.... maybe you shouldn't let them in. :shrug:

Edit:
I can imagine the immigration interviews:

So, what do you offer our country Mr. Immigrant?
Death to the infidels!
I see, well we have plenty of infidels here- you should do just fine. Welcome aboard!

That was the most chilling part of the article. You must have missed where they said its 2nd and 3rd generation. They quoted a guy from Pakistan saying (paraphrasing) "You've let the Deobandis run wild over there, and now they're much more extreme then they are in Pakistan".

I found the comments from readers at the bottom very telling as well. By and large, the readers chose to blame British society for not making the 2nd and 3rd generation muslims feel more welcomed and accepted.

So, basically, if you're Christian or Jewish, grow up and get a job. But if you're Muslim, you should be coddled? No offense to most Muslims on the boards. If anything, the assumption that Muslims are a hair's breath away from violence and the British government needs to take all extraordinary measures to placate you should be downright insulting.

[Tribesman]

I think another view is needed on this story ....
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007410806,00.html
Oh sorry thats the times with tits version:oops:


So now Frag....
Half of the mosks in Great Brittain don't call for Jihad.

Wouldn't that mean that half of the mosques are not mosques ? perhaps they are pubs and betting shops and the murdoch journalists just got a bit lost and confused .

From the times
In another talk, delivered a few weeks before 9/11, he praises Muslims who have gained martyrdom in battle and laments that today “no one dare utter the J word”. “The J word has become taboo . .. The J word is jihad in the way of Allah.”


isn't that wierd , if no one dares say the word how come half of the mosques are calling for it ?
The suns version is funnier though , apparently the same lines are an attack on Jews , perhaps they were longer in the pub than the times writers .:yes:


Hey, just like home, lefties activily funding islamisation
Errrrrr...Frag this is Britain they are talking about , those LEA grants would be from either conservative or new labour run commitees in the areas in question , which of those is a leftie party ?

[HoreTore]

Bah. We've beaten christianity, Islam won't be any harder.

[Husar]

Hey, just like home, lefties activily funding islamisation,
Just yesterday I heard a comment from a green party member who said that Germans visiting terrorist training camps in Pakistan would not necessarily go there to become terrorists, they might go there for information gathering or erm (well, he was thinking) other things (that's all he came up with :laugh4: ).

Yeah I mean my dream holidays include visiting a terrorist training camp to have a nice discussion with them about why the bible is better than the quran.:dizzy2: Or maybe just eat some cookies with the nice guys there.:2thumbsup: Or find a husband for my future daughter, or....

[The Wizard]

The Deobandi movement, part of the Hanafi maddhab (a school of fiqh, or Islamic law), does not necessarily promote terrorism, friend. The head of its main establishment, in Delhi, India, has, if I remember correctly, officially denounced those students (taleban, you may know them ~;p) who formed the clerical dictatorship in Afghanistan and now threaten democracy there as we speak. He views them as misguided and outside of the Deobandi system of teaching, taught as he was by wayward Deobandi madrassas in the Pakistani tribal areas.


Seriously now, where do the Deobandis line up in the whole Sunni/Shite split? Are they any relation to Wahabists?The Deobandi tradition within the Hanafi maddhab was born as a revivalist movement for the Muslim community in India, which had gone strongly into decline following the failure of the Sepoy Rebellion and the transferring of power from the British East India Company to the British state itself (for instance, while a highly literate community before the Sepoy Mutiny, the subsequent institution of English as the sole language of communication and education in British India meant the sharp decline of literacy amongst Indian Muslims, leading to the fact that by 1910 literacy in Urdu was 20%, down from a whopping near 100%; in the same vein, only some sixty graduates of Calcutta's university, out of 3000, were Muslims between 1858 and 1878, while in the 1880s only one Muslim out of every twenty-five was enrolled in British-run colleges).

The Deobandis said that it was the fact that the Muslim community in India had strayed from the Qur'an, the sunnah, and the shari'a in general had led to their downfall and marginalization, and invoked the memory of the rich, powerful Mughal empire and its golden age of intellectual and cultural life for Indian Islamic society (though it must be said that it wasn't too bad for Sikhs, Hindus, Jains and Buddhists before Aurangzeb, either). Returning to that would be the medicine for all their ills. They were (and are) opposed and rivalled by the Aligarh Muslim University (in Delhi as well), which is run on the idea that the learning and practicing of Western techniques is the way forward for Indian Muslims. The Deobandi system is surpassed only by Cairo's al-Azhar University for teaching and scholarship in Islam in the Sunni world.

So no, they aren't anywhere near the Wahhabis, Qutbists or Salafists. They represent the traditional, conservative line within the Sunni world which is likely that of the overwhelming majority of world Muslims.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Bah. We've beaten christianity, Islam won't be any harder.

Beaten? :inquisitive:

Perhaps you mean "ignored" or "discarded?"

Christianity hasn't been "opposed" to any Scandanavians for most of a millenium.

[Don Corleone]

Beaten? :inquisitive:

Perhaps you mean "ignored" or "discarded?"

Christianity hasn't been "opposed" to any Scandanavians for most of a millenium.

I believe he was speaking in his role as secular humanist, not Scandanavian. I believe HoreTore's 'beaten' comment stems from the realization that everyone he knows is atheistic as he is. I didn't consider it worth answering, as he hardly appears to have taken an objective or exhaustive look at the number of Christians in his own country, let alone worldwide. But let a hippy dream, man. :hippie:

[Geoffrey S]

Bah. We've beaten christianity, Islam won't be any harder.
Well, if by beaten you mean "turned into a crucial cornerstone of modern society"...

[The Wizard]

In before theism vs atheism drama

[Don Corleone]

Good lord, I need an organziational chart for all these splinter groups. :dizzy2:

Anyway, it sounds (to me) as though the Deobandis are a reactionary educational group that looks back on the past fondly and says "well, the best things have ever been was 700 years ago, so we need to return to 700 years back". Is that correct? They're essentially the angry, violent muslim version of the Amish?

And did I understand you correctly that they're Sunni, not Shiite?

[The Wizard]

Angry and violent? Not really. Real conservative? Hell yes. Scions of their school can transform into terrorists and tyrants? Yep.

And yes, they're Sunnis. The Deobandi madrassa in Delhi, their primary institution of higher learning, is second only to Cairo's al-Azhar in prestige for scholarship in the Sunni world.

[Boyar Son]

Wow never knew it was that bad in england.

Will this make you guy's vote for more pro-england parties in government, or at least something, after all, no one should actually threaten your life publicaly (for a long time too). no mater what freedom of speech.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

But let a hippy dream, man. :hippie:

I keep hearing Christopher Guest singing "Listen to what the flower people say..."

This one goes to 11. :cheesy:

[Navaros]

whose leading preacher loathes Western values

That phrase is hilarious. They don't hate "Western values". Rather, they hate that there is no such thing was "Western values," because "The West" has no values.

The above quoted phrase is but one of endless examples of sneaky media bias towards a secular humanist agenda.

[InsaneApache]

I'm from the west and I have values. They happen not to be religious based ones.

Far better to make your own mind up than be spoon fed values by controlling (religious) elites.

[Slyspy]

Quickly, nail big pieces of jagged wood over the windows before a rampaging mob of Muslims crash through complaining that their benefits hardly cover the cost of making protest banners.

We must elect the nearest bunch of facists and neo-nazis into power ASAP!

Further sacrifice of the rights of many in order to maybe prevent the possible criminality of the few!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That phrase is hilarious. They don't hate "Western values". Rather, they hate that there is no such thing was "Western values," because "The West" has no values.

The above quoted phrase is but one of endless examples of sneaky media bias towards a secular humanist agenda.

Nav':

What you label and deride as the "secular humanist agenda" is, in point of fact, a very clear values set by which one can live one's life.

You may think their value set is inherently misguided and predicated on a list of assumptions that you believe to be wrong, but that does not belie the existence of value set for that "agenda."

Besides, are you not, yourself, a "Westerner" with a clear value set? How can "The West" be bereft of values in its entirety?

A passionate response, but logically a tad "sloppy."

[Mikeus Caesar]

Wow never knew it was that bad in england.

Will this make you guy's vote for more pro-england parties in government, or at least something, after all, no one should actually threaten your life publicaly (for a long time too). no mater what freedom of speech.

Sorry to go a bit off-topic here, but we can't vote for pro-england parties - this is Britain!

When will you people learn that there is no such thing as England. England is not a country, it is just an area of the country of the United Kingdom.

[Del Arroyo]

Sorry to go a bit off-topic here, but we can't vote for pro-england parties - this is Britain!

When will you people learn that there is no such thing as England. England is not a country, it is just an area of the country of the United Kingdom.

Then what about the Welsh and the Scots?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, Wales was never really a country. There was only one Welsh Prince of Wales and Long Shanks did for him. Scotland and England came into personal union in 1603 when a Scottish king took the English throne and into political and national union in 1707 when the Scottish parliament agreed to disolve itself at the behest of a German Queen.

England and Ireland came into personnal union under Henry VIII after the reformantion and into political and national union in 1801.

Since then Southern Ireland has broken away completely, Northern Ireland has it's own assambly, as the do the Welsh, while Scotland has a new parliament in a tacky new building. All these countries now exist seperately from the United Kingdom to one degree or another.

However, there is currently no English parliament.

[Mikeus Caesar]

I know i'm dragging away from the original subject here, but it really gets on my nerves this whole 'scotland, wales and england' thing. STOP BEING NATIONALISTS IDIOTS AND JUST BE UNITED AS YOU HAVE BEEN FOR THE LAST 300 YEARS. The country functioned fine until you all started thinking about countries of olde that ceased to exist a long time ago.

[HoreTore]

I believe he was speaking in his role as secular humanist, not Scandanavian. I believe HoreTore's 'beaten' comment stems from the realization that everyone he knows is atheistic as he is. I didn't consider it worth answering, as he hardly appears to have taken an objective or exhaustive look at the number of Christians in his own country, let alone worldwide. But let a hippy dream, man. :hippie:

I mean marginalized, so that they don't have any real influence in this(and many other european countries) any more ~;)

And half my family are mad, blood-hungry and hellbent fire and brimstone christians, just so you know ~;)

And I am the grandson of the former leader of Buskerud's Christian Peoples Party...

[Tribesman]

The above quoted phrase is but one of endless examples of sneaky media bias towards a secular humanist agenda.

OK nav , you done quite well on your piss take Christian fundamentalist stance .
Can you offer anything much in the piss take Islamic fundamentalist stance ?

[Boyar Son]

Sorry to go a bit off-topic here, but we can't vote for pro-england parties - this is Britain!

When will you people learn that there is no such thing as England. England is not a country, it is just an area of the country of the United Kingdom.

No way?

so england ceased to exist once they united with scotland and N ireland?

[Strike For The South]

No way?

so england ceased to exist once they united with scotland and N ireland?

Dont be stupid. You knew that

[The Wizard]

Quickly, nail big pieces of jagged wood over the windows before a rampaging mob of Muslims crash through complaining that their benefits hardly cover the cost of making protest banners.

We must elect the nearest bunch of facists and neo-nazis into power ASAP!

Further sacrifice of the rights of many in order to maybe prevent the possible criminality of the few!So true it hurts. :bow:


I know i'm dragging away from the original subject here, but it really gets on my nerves this whole 'scotland, wales and england' thing. STOP BEING NATIONALISTS IDIOTS AND JUST BE UNITED AS YOU HAVE BEEN FOR THE LAST 300 YEARS. The country functioned fine until you all started thinking about countries of olde that ceased to exist a long time ago.Ah, yes -- that's why each of them has a different national language. That's also why each of them has their systems of law completely seperate, inviolate and unique. That's also why they have national symbols, history and identities.

What you describe as "British" is nothing but a construct devised three hundred years ago and become English by virtue of England's massive demographic advantage in this union. This is not said to denigrate the United Kingdom -- this is simply how it is. The Union may not have been concieved exclusively by Englishmen, nor was it (completely) created by them, but it was inevitable that they would come to dominate it in almost every concievable way. What is happening now is simply a reverse of that process.

Sorry, mods, for further derailing this. I will stop if you wish it so.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No way?

so england ceased to exist once they united with scotland and N ireland?

Read my post but yes, sort of. England and Wales share a church, schooling system and legal system. Scotland maintained it's own of each.

With the acts of political union England ceased to exist as a political entity distinct within the British Isles. With the acts of devolution Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland came back into existance as semi-autonomous political entities but there is still no political entity that is England.

It is a great political injustice which if it isn't eventually remedied will likely cause the English to initiate the breakup of the Union. I think the Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and others will find themselves swamped in a tide of Anglo-Saxon rage if that happens.

[The Wizard]

Well, let's be honest here. The Union Parliament is the English one. It's even held in the same place

[InsaneApache]

nm.

[Slyspy]

Well, let's be honest here. The Union Parliament is the English one. It's even held in the same place

Not so. Not at all, excepting the location.

[Sir Moody]

There is no "English" parliment - the Scotish and Welsh MP's sit and vote in Westminster on issues that effect the UK and then their own parliments do away with those said issues...

a perfect example is University loans - Westminster abolished grants and replaced them with a loan - the scotish parliment overruled this so Scotish students still get grants and dont have to pay anything back.

Westminster is "shared" and until England gets a voice like scotland and wales theres going to be some significant sabre rattling come next election

on topic - it doesnt suprise me that many 2nd and 3rd generation imigrants are being taken in by thses radicals - their parents know life in the UK is better hence why they moved in the first place, their children wont and will have lived life on the bottom food wrung in the UK - we arnt overtly racist anymore but the feeling is still there - hence why the newspapers are able to fire everyone up with imigration one liners.

[Boyar Son]

Dont be stupid. You knew that

Yeah, anything else you want to point out of what I should know?

[Fragony]

So now Frag....
Wouldn't that mean that half of the mosques are not mosques ? perhaps they are pubs and betting shops and the murdoch journalists just got a bit lost and confused .

Ow you got me there me so pwned. Ah well all is still fine huh, peaceful people, peaceful religion, metro didn't explode for a while and most brits still have heads attached to their necks and most women aren't gangbanged and stoned to death afterwards. Maybe tomorow, but let's celebrate cultural diversity in the meantime no? I love kebab :balloon2:

[Byzantine Mercenary]

On the subject of the union there is a deep vein of annoyance in England over tuition fees and foundation hospitals being passed by Scottish MPs which is pretty much the reaction the so called ''nationalists'' want.

They, like these Muslim fundamentalists we so often hear about, are trying to shape the nation to their own wishes against the will of the majority, although it is through less violent means i find it equally disgusting. Like many people in Britain i am not solely English but have Scottish, Welsh and Irish blood, and i am fed up with nationalists trying to punish me for my supposed ''English'' ancestors crimes against their ''country'' That is where i believe this nationalist zeal comes from, an understanding of history almost solely from sources such as Brave heart...

Back on topic i believe that what we need in Britain is clear moderate leadership from Islam, at the moment we hear all about the extremist clerics and such. If a noble religion that prohibits violence against the unarmed or unwilling, and treats other followers of god with respect cannot find a leader to show the world (and indeed their own communities in some cases) this, then it has truly gone astray...

[Fragony]

If such a person exists we would have found him by now. It is what it is, no such thing as a moderate islam. Only moderate muslims.

[Tribesman]

Fragony , do you check under the bed every night just to make sure that the muslims aren't gonna get ya in your sleep ?


Back on topic i believe that what we need in Britain is clear moderate leadership from Islam, at the moment we hear all about the extremist clerics and such. If a noble religion that prohibits violence against the unarmed or unwilling, and treats other followers of god with respect cannot find a leader to show the world (and indeed their own communities in some cases) this, then it has truly gone astray...
Funny that , I just read an article where one of the nuttier leaders in Britain has changed his mind over the nuttier aspects that he used to support .Old news of course but a British paper did manage to report it this morning a month after the story came out .

[Fragony]

Redicule me all you want tribes, reality has a way of catching up. It is what it is.

[Husar]

It is what it is.
That's hard to deny, but what exactly is it? :laugh4:

I hope Tribes is not denying that radical muslims exist, otherwise I'd claim the crusades were performed by agnostics. :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

That's hard to deny, but what exactly is it? :laugh4:


snip

edit, that wasn't really necesary.

edit, don't know if you heard of him, a non-dhimmi politician called Wilders compared the Quran to Mein Kampf and wants to ban it (and he calls himselve rightwing, banning books gah), now I am against a ban but the comparison is valid.

Edit by Ser Clegane: no religion bashing if this thread is supposed to stay open

[Husar]

Offensive quote removed by Ser Clegane
Weren't we talking about reality? Well, Islam can be dangerous but then there are people who call themselves chrisitans and walk around slaughtering others. Maybe not so much in Europe, but elsewhere in the world.


edit, don't know if you heard of him, a non-dhimmi politician called Wilders compared the Quran to Mein Kampf and wants to ban it (and he calls himselve rightwing, banning books gah), now I am against a ban but the comparison is valid.
The old testament also contains genocides as in "kill them all, leave nothing alive" and God even punishes king Saul for not doing so. Yet noone called for it to be banned because it promotes violence. Though then again, there is no new quran that promotes love that I'm aware of.:sweatdrop:
The problem is that you can find followers for almost every radical idea, you can even find people who want you to eat them alive.:2thumbsup:

[Fragony]

The old testament also contains genocides as in "kill them all, leave nothing alive" and God even punishes king Saul for not doing so. Yet noone called for it to be banned because it promotes violence.

There are creepy parts in it, but that is god saying 'look what I have done!' The Quran has an to-do list, bible doesn't. That is a major difference.

[HoreTore]

Though then again, there is no new quran that promotes love that I'm aware of.:sweatdrop:

You do know that the Quran includes the gospel, right?

[Husar]

You do know that the Quran includes the gospel, right?
No, though I knew Jesus is a muslim prophet. And it's sort of useless since Muhammed's message seems to trump that of Jesus, I have yet to see a muslim quote Jesus anywhere. :shrug:

[Tribesman]

The Quran has an to-do list, bible doesn't.
OK Frag , why do you really want to go out of your way to show that you don't know either set of scripture ?


no such thing as a moderate islam. Only moderate muslims.
Islam comes in many flavours , just like christianity .
If there are dozens of different interpretations of the scriptures in their original lnguage , and hundreds of different interpretations of the translated scriptures then how on earth can you say that there is only the extremist version and no moderate version .

Make sure you check under the bed tonight Frag , Islam is your own personal bogeyman and it really is gonna get ya:scared:

[Boyar Son]

No, though I knew Jesus is a muslim prophet. And it's sort of useless since Muhammed's message seems to trump that of Jesus, I have yet to see a muslim quote Jesus anywhere. :shrug:

Jesus is a muslim prophet?!?!?!

Mohamed trumps trumps jesus' message?!?!?!?

Wacky, islam didnt even start yet, and how does mohameds message beats jesus?

Jesus preaches peace and love while mohammed has passages in the quran about fighting the infidel, now to the common man that would seem weird for a religion to preach, by todays common perception of religion.

:dizzy2:

[Slyspy]

Jesus is a muslim prophet?!?!?!

Mohamed trumps trumps jesus' message?!?!?!?

Wacky, islam didnt even start yet, and how does mohameds message beats jesus?

Jesus preaches peace and love while mohammed has passages in the quran about fighting the infidel, now to the common man that would seem weird for a religion to preach, by todays common perception of religion.

:dizzy2:

Perhaps you should educate yourself.

[Papewaio]

Jesus is a muslim prophet?!?!?!


Just like Moses is identified as part of the Christian message.



Mohamed trumps trumps jesus' message?!?!?!?
Just like Jesus trumps the Old Testament message, muslims believe that Mohammad trumps that of the New Testament.



Wacky, islam didnt even start yet, and how does mohameds message beats jesus?


Like software, updates generally come after the original source.

OT -> NT-> Koran

[Boyar Son]

Perhaps you should educate yourself.

Whats the matter cant put a decent argument up?

[Boyar Son]

Just like Moses is identified as part of the Christian message.


Just like Jesus trumps the Old Testament message, muslims believe that Mohammad trumps that of the New Testament.



Like software, updates generally come after the original source.

OT -> NT-> Koran

ah, thx for clearing that up

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Weren't we talking about reality? Well, Islam can be dangerous but then there are people who call themselves chrisitans and walk around slaughtering others. Maybe not so much in Europe, but elsewhere in the world.
This is kind of what i am getting at, the idea of this appauls me and there are moderate christians that come out and say that this is wrong, and thankfully most people know that such actions are unchristian.

I know there are muslims that feel the same about extremists breaking the rules of their own religion.
There realy is no getting away from it for them, Islam is a religion of rules and law, this isn't a bad thing. But by disregarding those rules extremists threaten Islam...


The old testament also contains genocides as in "kill them all, leave nothing alive" and God even punishes king Saul for not doing so. Yet noone called for it to be banned because it promotes violence. Though then again, there is no new quran that promotes love that I'm aware of.:sweatdrop:
The problem is that you can find followers for almost every radical idea, you can even find people who want you to eat them alive.:2thumbsup:
Yes and this is the reason why i cannot see the old testament as direct scripture, and i guess the Gospels (but not the rest of the new testament) would ''trump'' the old testament to a certain extent. I think that quite a bit of the old testament is a biased history and i think that when many events in it are attributed to god its more of a assumption that god did it.

The real point i am getting at is that there are some ''peaceful'' messages in the quran, such as those that list jews and christians as fellow believers.

I welcome any more knoledgeable on the quran to correct me if i am wrong but from my knowedge of it:

When the term infidel is mentioned it is a referance to the pagans that muhhammed fought and explicitly not Christians or Jews who muhhammed had a lot of respect for.

There are rules of war where as i remmeber they are not permmitted to fight women, children, the old the sick or the unwilling.

Now i have no illusions about Islam but i think these areas need to be considered when talking about it. Extremists are threatening this message and i would realy expect moderates to speak up and defend it but you don't hear about it.
That, as i see it, is the problem...

[HoreTore]

No, though I knew Jesus is a muslim prophet. And it's sort of useless since Muhammed's message seems to trump that of Jesus, I have yet to see a muslim quote Jesus anywhere. :shrug:

Jesus is one of Islams many prophets, Muhammed has a special status simply because he is the last one.

They have most of the same stuff as both testaments, plus some new stuff from Muhammed.

And yes, the Quran does preach love, for those who think otherwise.

Oh, and shiites(I think it is, don't qoute me on that) are still waiting for some Imam/prophet(can't remember that either, but like the jews' messiah) to appear, which will only happen once there are no wars in the world. No, that goes for all wars, Jihad's and muslim-started wars included.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

You're missing the real ray of sunshine:



See? It's only overseas. So as long as you stay on the west side of the Chunnel, you should be fine.


Overseas yes. But Against Who?....

[Fragony]

OK Frag , why do you really want to go out of your way to show that you don't know either set of scripture ?

I am sure that works out for you in the pub, but here we need a tiny bit more. So, you claim that the quran does not have a to-do list? And that the bible does? Or both don't, both do? And there are perhaps many interpetations of islam, but those, we do not have those here, we get the hardline variety, just because, well we allowed it to settle.

[Xiahou]

You do know that the Quran includes the gospel, right?
Without even checking, I know that isn't true. The fundamental part of the gospel is Jesus as the son of God. Muslims don't believe that.

[Ironside]

Without even checking, I know that isn't true. The fundamental part of the gospel is Jesus as the son of God. Muslims don't believe that.

You are aware that Christians considered Muslims as heretics for centuries right? :inquisitive:
They usually don't do that with people that doesn't belive in the Bible you know, only those that have misinterpreted it.

[HoreTore]

Without even checking, I know that isn't true. The fundamental part of the gospel is Jesus as the son of God. Muslims don't believe that.

I was referring to his actions and what he said, not whether he is a prophet or "son of a god".

[Adrian II]

The Times article claims to be based on a police report but fails to mention what sort of report. That's sloppy. The hacks obviously didn't do their own math on the mosques, the Deobandis and related radicals.

Anyway, the apparent popularity of the Deobandis among 2nd and 3rd generation migrants has been noted before in various publications and it is disconcerting. These guys despise western values like freedom of expression, womens' rights, respect for literature, music and various other arts. In short they are trash. The underlying problem is the lack of democratic tradiotion and independent thinking in muslim countries and expartriate communities. It is becoming increasingly urgent to enable western muslims to separate themselves from these idiots, both physically and spiritually, through real education and opportunities on the one hand and real police intervention in those areas where 'spiritual leaders' terrorize their 'believers' on the other hand.

[Tribesman]

So, you claim that the quran does not have a to-do list? And that the bible does? Or both don't, both do?
Both do , as does Jewish scripture , and there are many similarities .
So for you to claim only one set of scriptures has them really is going out of your way to show that you don't know much about it .


And there are perhaps many interpetations of islam, but those, we do not have those here, we get the hardline variety, just because, well we allowed it to settle.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Yes you only have the hardline variety over there .....because you only have the hardline variety....or is it that you have many varieties over there but only look for and hear about the nuttier ones ?

[The Wizard]

If such a person exists we would have found him by now. It is what it is, no such thing as a moderate islam. Only moderate muslims.What you mean, is that "moderate" (i.e. true) Muslims don't have a voice. They aren't given it by dictatorship governments, extremists, Middle Eastern fascists and, yes, the Western media negativity obsession as well. All the Muslims I know are some of the wisest and most good people I've ever met. And you would claim tripe like this? Get lost.

[Adrian II]

All the Muslims I know are some of the wisest and most good people I've ever met. And you would claim tripe like this? Get lost.Fragony probably doesn't get out anymore because believes his own scare-stories.

[InsaneApache]

Yes you only have the hardline variety over there .....because you only have the hardline variety....or is it that you have many varieties over there but only look for and hear about the nuttier ones ?

I dunno about that one mate. In the last 25 years the moslims in the city I live in have become very aggressive. They wern't a generation ago but they are now. This is prior to 11/9 as well.

I agree most are fine, it's the younger ones that worry me.

AllMost of the Muslims I know are some of the wisest and most good people I've ever met.

There fixed it for you. :sweatdrop:

[Tribesman]

I dunno about that one mate.
Well think on it a little .......
I agree most are fine......if most are fine then they cannot all be the hardline variety can they . it would be more of a loud minority sort of thing .


it's the younger ones that worry me.

That is because you are getting old .~;)

[Adrian II]

if most are fine then they cannot all be the hardline variety can they . it would be more of a loud minority sort of thing .We have been here before, you and me and Frag and all the rest. I think we can agree that muslim radicalism in western cities is a bigger problem for moderate muslims and particularly free-spirited women than it is for non-muslims. The former are not going to benefit at all if the latter cry foul at every muslim face they see. I wish more people would understand this dynamic.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

We have been here before, you and me and Frag and all the rest. I think we can agree that muslim radicalism in western cities is a bigger problem for moderate muslims and particularly free-spirited women than it is for non-muslims. The former are not going to benefit at all if the latter cry foul at every muslim face they see. I wish more people would understand this dynamic.

replace "bigger" with "no less of a" and I would have to agree.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think the people who need to get to grips with the dynamic are other Muslims.

[Geoffrey S]

replace "bigger" with "no less of a" and I would have to agree.
I'd stick with bigger. Consider that regular Muslims who wish to practise their faith properly have to share mosques with extremists, and that a large amount of social (and in some cases, other) pressure is exerted to keep them with the 'true' way of believing. There's a whole side to this that is barely visible to non-muslims.

[Adrian II]

I think the people who need to get to grips with the dynamic are other Muslims.They sure do, but it is much harder to do so whilst you are being spat on by the likes of Fragony who maintain that backwardness is part and parcel of your genetic make-up, your culture or your religion.

[InsaneApache]

So, yours and Fragonys' aims are the same, however, you just disagree about the tactics? :inquisitive:

[Adrian II]

So, yours and Fragonys' aims are the same, however, you just disagree about the tactics? :inquisitive:Not at all, InsaneApache. I fail to see how you could construe that. I wish my fellow citizens of the muslim persuasion all the best, and I say this without irony. They are not a problem. They have a problem though, the problem of religious radicalisation, and it must be dealt with by them, using all the help they can get. Frag apparently wishes all of them away. Whether he wants to expel them, convert them by force, put them in reservations or whatever, I wouldn't know. I'll leave that to him to explain.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wish my fellow citizens of the muslim persuasion all the best, and I say this without irony. They are not a problem. They have a problem though, the problem of religious radicalisation, and it must be dealt with by them, using all the help they can get.

Has the rot spread too deeply?

Catholicism has been radicalized at a number of points in its history, but only the period known as the Crusades was truly multi-generational. It is possible for a faith group to move past such a status.

Is this likely?

[The Wizard]

The problem with people like Fragony and Geert Wilders and Le Pen and those fools in Switzerland and Austria is exactly the same as with inner city Muslim kids: radicalization. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with religion or ideology. It has everything to do with being human.


Catholicism has been radicalized at a number of points in its history, but only the period known as the Crusades was truly multi-generational. It is possible for a faith group to move past such a status. Newsflash: whole peoples were oppressed, enslaved, or outright murdered by Europeans because they weren't white and weren't Christian, and thusly savages -- or not even human (as the Spaniards initially viewed the Nahuatl) at all! We're talking a period lasting from almost three hundred years after the Crusades to, arguably, just fifty years ago. Yes, it's passed. But it wasn't some episode of "Medieval barbarism" or other such fairy tales either.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Newsflash: whole peoples were oppressed, enslaved, or outright murdered by Europeans because they weren't white and weren't Christian, and thusly savages -- or not even human (as the Spaniards initially viewed the Nahuatl) at all! We're talking a period lasting from almost three hundred years after the Crusades to, arguably, just fifty years ago. Yes, it's passed. But it wasn't some episode of "Medieval barbarism" or other such fairy tales either.

Certainly a good deal of the Spanish domination in the New World can be ascribed to religious radicalism. However, I would argue that religious radicalism had little to do with most of the displacement of the native Amerinds -- which I would ascribe to Imperalism/simple greed -- and which appears to have been a fairly broad effort by all of the colonial powers regardless of creed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Newsflash: whole peoples were oppressed, enslaved, or outright murdered by Europeans because they weren't white and weren't Christian, and thusly savages -- or not even human (as the Spaniards initially viewed the Nahuatl) at all! We're talking a period lasting from almost three hundred years after the Crusades to, arguably, just fifty years ago. Yes, it's passed. But it wasn't some episode of "Medieval barbarism" or other such fairy tales either.

First off I think it's worth pointing out that a lot of these non-Christians were sacrificing babies, worshipping God-Kings and fighting their own religious wars. Thugee in India was a cult erradicated by the British. Why? Mainly because their method of worship was the ritual murder of travelers.

Compared to a lot the native religions Christianity was Hippie flower power.

At the same time religions had less to do with it than culture, and the fact that the Europeans won. The world today is a place created by Christian Europeans.


as the rot spread too deeply?

Catholicism has been radicalized at a number of points in its history, but only the period known as the Crusades was truly multi-generational. It is possible for a faith group to move past such a status.

Is this likely?

Are you seriously comparing the Crusades, a martial conflict which began with the desire to retake the Holy land sparked murder of pilgrims by Muslims and the general closing of said land to European Christians with Muslim Suicide bombers?

Some dreadful things were done then in the name of God but after the First Crusade it was fundamentally a terretorial war between Christian Outremer and her Muslim neighbours.

[Tribesman]

the general closing of said land to European Christians with Muslim Suicide bombers?

Can you expand on that Wigferth ?
There might be a slight link there but what is it ?

[The Wizard]

First off I think it's worth pointing out that a lot of these non-Christians were sacrificing babies, worshipping God-Kings and fighting their own religious wars. Thugee in India was a cult erradicated by the British. Why? Mainly because their method of worship was the ritual murder of travelers.

Human sacrifice? In the Aztec world, true, but that doesn't warrant the murder and subjugation of an entire people (which was only one part of a larger Mexica civilization which did not practice human sacrifice on such a widespread basis as the Aztecs did), wouldn't you agree? On a side note, what Europeans interpreted in Africa as the same phenomenon was actually capital punishment in action. So much for savagery...

God-kings? Absolutism, anyone? One step down from being Pharaoh.

Don't get me wrong here -- these are things of the past, and Christianity has done far more good than anti-theists and the like give it credit for (just like Islam and other religions, I might add). But it isn't like religious violence (such as Crusaders, boasting that they didn't walk into Jerusalem, but waded into it, up to their heels in the blood of the infidel) in Christendom was merely a thing of nine hundred years ago, either.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Are you seriously comparing the Crusades, a martial conflict which began with the desire to retake the Holy land sparked murder of pilgrims by Muslims and the general closing of said land to European Christians with Muslim Suicide bombers?

My point was that a significant component of the church was motivated by Christian radicalism during that era. The Knights Templar, the Beggars and Children's Crusades, any number of other events all suggest a level of fanaticism which parallels the modern Islamist fanaticism.

That said, the Crusades were conducted according to rules of warfare that were fairly standard for that savage era. The sack of Jerusalem would be paralleled by the treatment of Caen after it and any number of other events. You could therefore make an argument that the Crusades were largely conducted by the accepted "rules" of the time -- in contrast to modern Islamist terrorism -- but even so the specifically religious motivation for the conflict signifies a more radicalized era for the church.

[Brenus]

“That said, the Crusades were conducted according to rules of warfare that were fairly standard for that savage era.”
Not only, if you remember what did happen to the French Knights taken prisoners at Agincourt (1415!!!!) and how the Germans newly Protestants did crush the Peasants’ revolt (1525)… The Napoleonic Wars don’t show a great respect for what we call today the rules of engagement, slaughters of civilians, torching of towns and mistreatment of prisoners were common practice, even if efforts were tried…
In fact, the respect of Civilian Populations is quite new in warfare…

“Christianity has done far more good than anti-theists and the like”: That can be discussed…:inquisitive:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

My point was that a significant component of the church was motivated by Christian radicalism during that era. The Knights Templar, the Beggars and Children's Crusades, any number of other events all suggest a level of fanaticism which parallels the modern Islamist fanaticism.

That said, the Crusades were conducted according to rules of warfare that were fairly standard for that savage era. The sack of Jerusalem would be paralleled by the treatment of Caen after it and any number of other events. You could therefore make an argument that the Crusades were largely conducted by the accepted "rules" of the time -- in contrast to modern Islamist terrorism -- but even so the specifically religious motivation for the conflict signifies a more radicalized era for the church.

It's worth pointing out that in Palastine especially there was still a majoriety Jewish/Christian population. This was more than just "retake the Holy City for the glory of God". As I said, after the first Crusade you are talking about a Christian state with Christian subjects under attack from Muslims Caliphs, most notably Saladin.

You seem to be under some missaprehension about the Knightly orders as well. The Knights of St. John and Knights Templar routinely protected Jews and Muslims from Christian lynch mobs.

The Crusades were really no different to any other war. The same language of God and heaven was employed in England's wars with France.

Baba, My point was two fold. Firstly the colonials, be they Spanish, English or French etc. encountered relatively primative civilisations with incomprehensible customs. Secondly, many of these customs would be considered barbaric today in our much more tollerant society. In that climate it's not surprising that a "convert or kill" attitude was adopted. After all, any society that throws a wife onto a funeral pire live after her dead husband is obviously steeped in Satan, right?

Tribes, at the very least it can be said that the Crusades were military campaigns conducted openly and aimed at predominately military targets. That's very different to strapping on a semtex vest and pulling the ripcord on a school bus.

[Tribesman]

Tribes, at the very least it can be said that the Crusades were military campaigns conducted openly and aimed at predominately military targets.
It was aimed at towns and cities full of people wasn't it ?

However you mentioned stopping European Christian pilgrims with suicide bombs , how does that work ?

[HoreTore]

Tribes, at the very least it can be said that the Crusades were military campaigns conducted openly and aimed at predominately military targets.

No, that cannot be said, as towns full of people were put to the sword and a lot of massacres occured. Though that was pretty standard in the middle ages. Actually, it's STILL a standard tactic...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, that cannot be said, as towns full of people were put to the sword and a lot of massacres occured. Though that was pretty standard in the middle ages. Actually, it's STILL a standard tactic...

I think you'll find that towns that resisted were put to the sword. That is certainly a standard tactic, particually if the town refused to capitulate after a siege and forced the army to assault it's walls.

Tribes, frankly I would have thought such petty sophistry was beneath you. Perhaps I should have written to instead of with.:inquisitive:

[Tribesman]

Nah it was just a wierd statement that I cannot fathom, changing those words would make even more indecipherable .:shrug:

[HoreTore]

I think you'll find that towns that resisted were put to the sword. That is certainly a standard tactic, particually if the town refused to capitulate after a siege and forced the army to assault it's walls.

Does that really change anything?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

“Christianity has done far more good than anti-theists and the like”: That can be discussed…:inquisitive:

The full quote is:



Don't get me wrong here -- these are things of the past, and Christianity has done far more good than anti-theists and the like give it credit for (just like Islam and other religions, I might add).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Does that really change anything?

From a humanitarian point of view no, from a military and sociological point of view, yes.

Strategically the destruction of a resisting city is a good move. Alexander crushed dissent in Greece by raising Thebes to the ground, the result being that overall lives were saved by avoiding a protracted war. Also, after an assault all but the most diciplined soldiers will rape an pillage. Seeing your friends killed by the defenders gets your blood up.

It's not defensible but it's no where near as bad as cold blooded and cowardly murder of civilians. THe best thing about suicide bombing is you don't have to face the consequences of your actions, in this world in any case.

Most generals who did these things had trouble sleeping, I would imagine.

[Fragony]

Not at all, InsaneApache. I fail to see how you could construe that. I wish my fellow citizens of the muslim persuasion all the best, and I say this without irony. They are not a problem. They have a problem though, the problem of religious radicalisation, and it must be dealt with by them, using all the help they can get. Frag apparently wishes all of them away. Whether he wants to expel them, convert them by force, put them in reservations or whatever, I wouldn't know. I'll leave that to him to explain.

Doesn't matter how many moderates there are, it are the hardliners that make up the agenda. People are so quik to dismiss identity as a dominator, and islam is a strong identity. How that came to be, well we leave them no choice because we insist on giving it a place while we should be fighting radical elements, we pour water on small surface fires but the fundament is smoldering. Surveys have shown that in GB the majority of the muslims want the sharia or the sharia light, they might not be a danger now but when we need them they aren't on our side. No scientist has ever dismissed group dynamics, and we got groups.

ps, last week, Brussels. Apparantly the foolishness has gone so far that a days peace is worth more then the constitutional right to demonstrate, multiculture is starting the affect vital organs.

[Tribesman]

Doesn't matter how many moderates there are, it are the hardliners that make up the agenda.
Nope , it is the hardliners that make most noise .

[Fragony]

Nope , it is the hardliners that make most noise .

Quite succesfully if howmanywasit want the sharia/sharia-light, more then half at least no? Doesn't have to be the violent interpetation, it is undemocratic at best, hostile at it's worst. We simply cannot allow that, integration can only be achieved from a position of dominance. Muslims must understand that this is not a islamist country, and multicultists should stop trying to give them the idea that these terms are debatable.

[Tribesman]

Quite succesfully if howmanywasit want the sharia/sharia-light, more then half at least no?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Well done Frag you just undermined your whole irrational rationale .
So now frag , would you be one of those noisy hardliners that try to set the agenda but fail because the majority see the hardline stance as nonsense ?

[Fragony]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Well done Frag you just undermined your whole irrational rationale .
So now frag , would you be one of those noisy hardliners that try to set the agenda but fail because the majority see the hardline stance as nonsense ?

Hmmmmm nope sorry, not the majority says it's nonsense, half of UK mosks have radical idea's, looked it up, 61% want sharia courts (with the obligitory within brittish law), what is so hard about it? Cause and effect just doesn't exist for you? That percentage will rise as time progresses, that is the most likely because of the soft pressure on moderate muslims. We have seen that happening in other country's, and we have seen nothing that shows otherwise, it's a global trend and in England it is pretty severe.

1+1=2

article, http://www.meforum.org/article/687 no smiley's hope you like it.

^---these guys worry me, they have a lot of influence here in the Netherlands. Some dhimmi politicians insist on apleasement.

'This creates a self-perpetuating cycle of radicalization because the greater the political legitimacy of the Muslim Brotherhood, the more opportunity it and its proxy groups will have to influence and radicalize various European Muslim communities.'

Do not forget he is smarter then you, and currently probably without a hangover.

More; http://en.internationalepolitik.de/archiv/2005/winter2005/violent-islamists-in-the-uk-and-europe--the-british-government---s-complacency-is-not-warranted.html

It's not integration gone wrong it's a coordinated attempt. All (well not all just the smart ones) scholars agree on this, pubs have a hard time catching up.

hmmm, silence. It screams.

[Tribesman]

Hmmmmm nope sorry, not the majority says it's nonsense
Really ?

half of UK mosks have radical idea's:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Are you using the Times article or the Sun one ...all mosques have "radical" ideas .


61% want sharia courts (with the obligitory within brittish law), :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: errrr....within British law :oops: thats that bit in their scriptures isn't it , the bit about the law of the locals that you must follow:dizzy2:


it's a global trend and in England it is pretty severe:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: just like the hardline radical mullahs you are big on noise and short on substance .


1+1=2

Yes it does in most cases , so how are you ending up with 1+1= 56,457 ?


these guys worry me, they have a lot of influence here in the Netherlands.

Yes promoting Americas interests in the middle-east worries me too :yes:


'This creates a self-perpetuating cycle of radicalization because the greater the political legitimacy of the Muslim Brotherhood, the more opportunity it and its proxy groups will have to influence and radicalize various European Muslim communities.'

Now that is interesting , very interesting :2thumbsup:

Do not forget he is smarter then you
Is he ?
Well in this case obviously not , the greater political legitimacy of the Brotherhood arises from the fact that it is suppressed , while it is a poor oppressed organisation it can get its message across with lots of willing listeners , let them stand freely and see how much they screw up and lose support . Much like the poor old BNP , let them get office in their homelands and see how crap they really are .
Hey what a crazy idea , take away the "legitimacy" by letting them be legitimate :yes: Much better than Vidinos article eh perhaps he was drunk , was he out with the Murdoch journalists at the time ?


It's not integration gone wrong it's a coordinated attempt.
Have you checked under the bed ? :scared:
It is a combination of many things , including a few nutters getting together , the same sort of nutters who want a whites only paradise .
If you want to get upset over a few idiots feel free , but don't expect people to take your bogeymen stories seriously .

[Fragony]

Yup, really, as surveys have shown.

Times.

In a democracy laws can change, for better or worse.

Well at least you used plural.

Just pure luck I guess.

Agreed, but why exactly. Think of how that could affect you for starters.

Glad you like it.

Yeah that is crazy, see point 3.

Yup, it's a combination of things, a combination of blind multiculturalism and leap of faith-attitude of the political elite, who in 4 years will be working at the UN or Shell and just have to stay on their feet for a limited time.

Little addition to point 3, laws don't need to change, see Brussels last week. A demonstration against the islamisation wasn't allowed by a scared mayor, would be participants went to court, but a dhimmi judge denied citizens their constitutional right to demonstrate. Some high-ranking politicians got arrested exercising their fundamental rights.

[Tribesman]

Times.


Ah yes , what did one of your compatriots say about that article.....

The Times article claims to be based on a police report but fails to mention what sort of report. That's sloppy. The hacks obviously didn't do their own math on the mosques, the Deobandis and related radicals.
.....hmmmmmm.:oops:


Yup, it's a combination of things, a combination of blind multiculturalism and leap of faith-attitude of the political elite, who in 4 years will be working at the UN or Shell and just have to stay on their feet for a limited time.


Whatever next , back stabbing industrialists and the Jewish conspiracy :dizzy2: Are you on the right forum ?


Little addition to point 3, laws don't need to change, see Brussels last week. A demonstration against the islamisation wasn't allowed by a scared mayor, would be participants went to court, but a dhimmi judge denied citizens their constitutional right to demonstrate. Some high-ranking politicians got arrested exercising their fundamental rights.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Well done Frag , your imagination really does run riot .
Did the main organiser of the march agree with the judges , did he complain that the march was being hijacked by far right extremists and neo-nazis , did the "high ranking" seperatist politicians that got arrested get arrested for breaking the law .
Were they officially not representing the party (it is election time after all and law breaking and neo-nazi association doesn't sit well with most voters) when they gathered along the route of the illegal gathering .
Is it their fundamental right to break the law or are they just as crazy as the nutters they complain about ?

[Fragony]

Downplaying is part of the game.

enjoying your icecream?

Uhm, yeah good one :dizzy2:

Vlaams belang aren't nazi's, even took a stand against Wilders when he wanted to ban the quran. Go figure. Why would nazi's want to ban the quran, they should get along just fine, and they do. And did.

[HoreTore]

Yes. We know the Enlightened Opposers of Islam are the only ones who get banned from demonstrating. No lefties ever get that... :inquisitive:

[Tribesman]

Vlaams belang aren't nazi's
Perhaps you could get Blood and Honour and 88 to remove the parties web page from the links section then , maybe they ain't Nazis but the Nazis think they are .
Maybe thats why they go on the same rallies :idea2:

[Fragony]

So you are acusing nazi's of thinking now? Bald communists, replace rich with jews and it's the same thing.

[Tribesman]

No Frag , replace Jews with Muslims and we get exactly your little fetish .

[Fragony]

No Frag , replace Jews with Muslims and we get exactly your little fetish .

Oh common. Why don't you try finding some stuff that actually contradicts me and the dynamics that I describe, good luck.

[Tribesman]

Why don't you try finding some stuff that actually contradicts me and the dynamics that I describe
What you mean this tripe ?


No scientist has ever dismissed group dynamics, and we got groups.
Yeah you got groups , little groups that manage to alienate themselves from their so called supporters purely because when it comes down to it they are nuttier than a sack of almonds , and you worry that a bunch of fruitcakes that cannot even keep their own so called supporters supporting them are going to take over the world .
Frag there is nothing needed to contradict you .
Your own writing with its irrational fear and hatred stands alone in that department .

[InsaneApache]

Just to blend in Godwins law, the Third Reich did have several regiments of Waffen SS Moslem troops.

I'll do a Tribes and let anyone interested do the 'leg work'.

I've just had a very long day, apologies fellas.

G'nite.

[Tribesman]

Just to blend in Godwins law, the Third Reich did have several regiments of Waffen SS Moslem troops.

Yep , and Handschar gained the distinction of being the only SS division to mutiny , perhaps it was really only the Catholics in the division that did that , or maybe they didn't like France .
Whereas Kuma had a lot of desertions on the way to Hungary and by the time they got there were disbanded into other units .
Wierd fellow that Himmler eh , apparently european Muslims are true Aryans .

[InsaneApache]

Iran.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yep , and Handschar gained the distinction of being the only SS division to mutiny , perhaps it was really only the Catholics in the division that did that , or maybe they didn't like France .
Whereas Kuma had a lot of desertions on the way to Hungary and by the time they got there were disbanded into other units .
Wierd fellow that Himmler eh , apparently european Muslims are true Aryans .

Wasn't the leader of the Muslim SS Division(s) an Iraqi or something like that? I watched a History Channel piece on Sadam Hussein and I am certain that the guy was the "Grand Mufti" or something like that and hailed from Iraq. I'll wiki it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_%281st_Croatian%29

Okay so it says under "recruitment" that the guy I am thinking of was the Mufti of Jerusalem and worked to recruit Muslims into the SS.

[Tribesman]

Uesegi , it depends what source you use .
There is a hell of a lot of crap written about it
According to some sources they slit the throats of 80,000 jews in Jugoslavia and Greece, others say 800,000 Serbs , one anti-islam site that is often posted here says they killed 5,000 Americans in Italy of all places , another says that their job was to guard the trains going to the death camps .
Crazy stuff out there on that internet thingy eh :laugh4:

[HoreTore]

I fail to see how "muslims in the SS" is a good argument against Islam.

God knows the christians and europeans were by FAR in the majority. Next I'll probably hear that Hitler was a muslim from Pakistan, or that the Holocaust was mainly done by muslims...

BTW Fragony, for someone accusing us lefties for apologizing for muslims, you sure are making a lot of apologies for europeans when they do something horrible...

[Fragony]

Yeah you got groups , little groups that manage to alienate themselves from their so called supporters purely because when it comes down to it they are nuttier than a sack of almonds , and you worry that a bunch of fruitcakes that cannot even keep their own so called supporters supporting them are going to take over the world .
Frag there is nothing needed to contradict you .
Your own writing with its irrational fear and hatred stands alone in that department .

And yet another vague reply that brings nothing to the table. Gave you article, gave you numbers, these speak for themselve. Why don't you feed me some positive events, or something that in general speaks against the article, and no that friendly guy where you buy your kebab don't count. Sigh snipers......... always waiting to make a shot but we will never know his position.

[Husar]

Sigh snipers......... always waiting to make a shot but we will never know his position.
Reminds me of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHYC4ekzg60).

And I work out with some muslims who don't seem to be terrorists but then I never really talked to them, the guy where I get my Currwurst is also muslim and nice and many middle-eastern or turkish looking girls here don't wear veils or headscarfs so I'd guess their parents aren't very extreme. :shrug:

[Fragony]

Screw terrorism, it's a devided nation that worries me, and it's quikly going that way in Brittain it seems, or some forces are at least aiming to do so. It isn't nowhere as bad here in the Netherlands, but it as the same thing yanking their chain here as it is in Brittain.

edit, screw terrorists, in her case, gladly

http://www.dag.nl/upload_mm/e/c/b/1823150380_1999999660_eiilen2_440x293.jpg

Our very own Ché

[Tribesman]

And yet another vague reply that brings nothing to the table. Gave you article, gave you numbers, these speak for themselve.
Yes you gave the article , and I gave the same stables common version of the article , both were crap alarmist tripe , the numbers you gave do speak for themselves , since the have the caveat that completely destroys what you are attempting to say they say .


Sigh snipers......... always waiting to make a shot but we will never know his position.
You don't have to know my position , it takes very little effort to completely destoy yours though .
Most of it you do yourself by claiming stories say something when they clearly don't , claim crime figures or statistics show something that they don't , claim legal cases show things when it is patently untrue .

On the subjects of Islam , immigration and intergration your fears seem to have interrupted the chain of rational thought .
Irrational thoughts due to their nature are easy to shoot down , not as an attempt to get you to change your mind , that would be futile , but simply to show your "thoughts" up for what they are .

[InsaneApache]

Nice duel, gentlemen.

Now spell out how you might resolve the socio-political dimension to this.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Perhaps the Beziers solution?

:devilish:

[Fragony]

Yes you gave the article , and I gave the same stables common version of the article , both were crap alarmist tripe , the numbers you gave do speak for themselves , since the have the caveat that completely destroys what you are attempting to say they say .


You don't have to know my position , it takes very little effort to completely destoy yours though .


I guess you aren't very good at it then, since I still got zero, besides anger wrapped in a moral appeal. If these articles are alarmist, untrue, show me.

On the subjects of Islam , immigration and intergration your fears seem to have interrupted the chain of rational thought .

That is fun to say isn't it, irrationality, great for scrabble, but in a discussion when you call someone irrational you ussually say why, and bring something to the table that shows why. I still have nada. I fear a country with no sense of direction, multiculturalism is a self-denying profecy, for a multiculturalist the outcome must be a 100 whatever the sum. Very rational. Go there! where? I dunno I hoped you knew.

[Tribesman]

if these articles are alarmist, untrue, show me.

oooooo thats a hard one ...try post #11


That is fun to say isn't it, irrationality, great for scrabble, but in a discussion when you call someone irrational you ussually say why, and bring something to the table that shows why.
another hard one , a real struggle that will be .:dizzy2:
So ......a woman is gang raped and murdered , you say she was a dumb american MTV loving bitch who wanted a bit of rough but got more than she expected ....... another woman is gang raped and you say its because the rapists were muslims and that is what they do ...rational or irrational ?

A bloke gets no charges put against him because there is no evidence , you say its because he was a Muslim and the police and judges won't prosecute Muslims.......a bloke gets caught red handed , there is a pile of evidence and even his friends testify against him , you say he is innocent and was only prosecuted because he isn't a Muslim....rational or irrational ?

A group gets some grants to subsidise those parts of a construction project that are grant eligible , you say the dutch taxpater is paying for the whole project because they are Muslims .......lots of groups get the same grants for those parts of their projects that are eligable for grants and you say .....errrrr......nothing ....because they are not Muslim...rational or irrational ?

Does that bring enough to the table ?

Would you like some more of your posts to remind you what you have claimed on this forum ?
Or should I just finish with your "I am going out to beat up some immigrants this weekend , they need to be taught a lesson" post ?:thumbsdown:

[Fragony]

That's the post where you say it's rubbish right.

No Tribes, that, again, brings absolutily nothing to the table, yet another moral appeal. Several. If you want to discuss me fine, start a thread, but right now we are discussing the article in post 1. About that particular example, guy wasn't caught red handed, he was arrested at home. The judge even said the punnishment was so high because he wanted to stress the multicultural society, he said so in the verdict, tribes.

Ah well let's play. Mosk was funded with fraud, city bought their ground and gave it back, 2.000.000 euro there you go. Illegal as heck. I can give you a little background if you want, the moderate council of the time insisted they needed the money to prevent the hardliners from taking over, nothing but blackmail. They got the money and the hardliners took over anyway. It is doubtfull the mosk will ever be build.

About that rape, no idea what you are talking about, sure you have it somewhere in the Fragony files but I am kinda lost, not only on this particular example but also about what the hell it has to do with the subject.

About beating up, I was wrong but I was upset. How long was that ago? 2 years? Was during the Paris riots I believe (or van Gogh, forgot) and there was talk of the same thing happening in Rotterdam that weekend, but it never happened.

ps, wasn't it at the same time you were going to teach me a lesson and I gave you my adress and phonenumber and how best to get here? (schiphol amersfoort, about 40 minutes, nice route by the way, lots of water very pretty)

[Tribesman]

That's the post where you say it's rubbish right.

Yep


No Tribes, that, again, brings absolutily nothing to the table
It brings everything that is needed ....if half the mosques are talking about Jihad then what are the other half talking about ?
Are they not mosques?
Jihad is part of islam isn't it , do these moques not talk about it ?
Do they talk about the lesser or the greater ?
Do they talk about the Shia or Sunni Jihad ?
One good thing in the article is that it quotes something ...about Jihad being a taboo word ....thats true , due to the alarmism associated with the word .


About that particular example, guy wasn't caught red handed, he was arrested at home.

Oh so if the police acting on information about a planned firebomb attack raid a house and find the racist git with firebombs he hasn't been caught red handed because he was at home:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


The judge even said the punnishment was so high because he wanted to stress the multicultural society, he said so in the verdict, tribes.
The judge said that the sentance was towards the higher end of the possible scale because racist attacks must not be tolerated .


If you want to discuss me fine, start a thread,
No thats OK Frag , thanks for the offer , but I shall just wait for your next attempt in a long line of "muslims gonna get ya" topics :2thumbsup:
Will I have to wait long ?
Hey if you try the Daily "hate" Mail instead of the Times you should be able to post several every day .~;)


About that rape, no idea what you are talking about, sure you have it somewhere in the Fragony files but I am kinda lost, not only on this particular example but also about what the hell it has to do with the subject.
I was the american student raped and murdered in Aruba , what it and the others have to do with the subject is to show a pattern in your thought process...everything is different to you if it is Muslims involved .


Mosk was funded with fraud, city bought their ground and gave it back, 2.000.000 euro there you go. Illegal as heck.
That isn't illegal , that is town planning and provision of community facilities in a run down area , it is normal , you have an issue with it purely because of the religeon involved .



ps, wasn't it at the same time you were going to teach me a lesson
Hey Frag get it right , the quote was "if you cannot introduce a racist to a reasonable point of view then introduce his head to the floor"

[Fragony]

Those are fascinating questions indeed, quite philosophical, let me fetch my pipe. If I didn't know any better I would think that I would be interested in them, but alas I am not. If the muslims are unsure about what it is why should I know? Now let's get back to article, you can call it suzie if you want, I'll just call it +/- half the mosks in brittain teach the hardline version of islam which tells muslims to shed blood in the name of the prophet. Maybe that is rubbish, but you seem to have a little difficulty in proving that. Back on track, no need to thank me I am therefore I can.

I was the american student raped and murdered in Aruba , what it and the others have to do with the subject is to show a pattern in your thought process...everything is different to you if it is Muslims involved

Oh, Hogaway. You know two of the suspects are black right? If you want to nail me here you could do with a better example. Most gangrapes are done by muslims(here at least), since you are burdening yourselve with the greater meanings, go for it.

That isn't illegal , that is town planning and provision of community facilities in a run down area , it is normal , you have an issue with it purely because of the religeon involved .

It's legal when it is done legally. And, it wasn't.

Oh so if the police acting on information about a planned firebomb attack raid a house and find the racist git with firebombs he hasn't been caught red handed because he was at home

Indeed, that is what red handed means you know. Caught in the act. He wasn't. Why is that so hard for you?

Hey Frag get it right , the quote was "if you cannot introduce a racist to a reasonable point of view then introduce his head to the floor"

Hmm I guess you don't remember it. I wonder why.

[Tribesman]

Oh, Hogaway. You know two of the suspects are black right? If you want to nail me here you could do with a better example.
were they black Muslims ?


It's legal when it is done legally. And, it wasn't
Then undoubtably you can provide details of the convictions:laugh4:


Indeed, that is what red handed means you know. Caught in the act. He wasn't. Why is that so hard for you?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
He was caught in the act of those crimes he was charged with and convicted for :idea2: You claimed he was innocent:dizzy2:


Hmm I guess you don't remember it. I wonder why.
My memory is fine frag , you took the quote as being a threat to you ...I was ever so scared when you said you did kick-boxing I was so scared I nearly wet myself laughing :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Fragony]

were they black Muslims ?


Then undoubtably you can provide details of the convictions:laugh4:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
He was caught in the act of those crimes he was charged with and convicted for :idea2: You claimed he was innocent:dizzy2:


My memory is fine frag , you took the quote as being a threat to you ...I was ever so scared when you said you did kick-boxing I was so scared I nearly wet myself laughing :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Ahh, it's getting shorter and shorter, since we aren't discussing the subject anymore this thread could just as well be closed.

I don't know if they were muslims tribes.

Nope can't give details of convictions, there weren't any. Why that is I'll leave to your imagination.

Afraid not tribes, look for the thread 'Dearest Fragony' in the archieves :yes:

Thanks for the memories,

-xxx- Frag

ow, missed one. Which act?

[Tribesman]

I don't know if they were muslims tribes.

Ah so if you don't know they are muslims you don't make an issue of it :idea2: in fact you did the opposite and blamed the victim .


Nope can't give details of convictions, there weren't any. Why that is I'll leave to your imagination.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Frag it is your imagination... the whole mosque building finance topic and the way you presented it was your imagination running riot .


ow, missed one. Which act?
Oooooo thats a hard one , but since you couldn't remember the judges summing up correctly I suppose you cannot remember the charges either...so ....consipacy to commit an act of terrorism , incitemet to racial hatred , illegal possesion of explosive devices , illegal possesion of explosive devices with intent...but hey you said he was innocent because he wasn't a Muslim:oops:
See the pattern .

[Fragony]

Explosives huh, you mean a molotov cocktail, I think you are confused with the case of Samir A. He was charged with attempted arson, that's it, he got max penalty because of his motives(was 2,5 years not 3 my bad). Now I am not sorry to see him in jail mind you, but to put it into perspective, nobody ever got charged for burning down churches. I started that thread because of the obvious double standard of the legal system.

Read up on the Samir A case and look for similarities, quite interesting.

Frag it is your imagination... the whole mosque building finance topic and the way you presented it was your imagination running riot .

Was a removing of a christian warmonument topic. Someone took offense.

but hey you said he was innocent because he wasn't a Muslim

See the pattern .

:laugh4: :laugh4: oh man you finally really lost it, there a straw grab it while you can.

God why even react.....

[Banquo's Ghost]

I suspect that we have drifted somewhat.

:closed: