View Full Version : AI use of bishps/priests/assassn and frequency of revolts both need to
A lot of people over at .com seem to be talking about these two issues as well. They really need to be looked into for the patch.
The AI uses way too many priests/bishops/assassins, even on Easy. You simply cannot get an emmisary ANYWHERE on the map after about 40 turns into a game on Easy.
Also revolts are occuring even in places with high loyalty and 0% chance of revolt, and not only that they have mysteriously strong forces for friggin' CIVILIANS. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
If those two things can be fixed up a bit in the patch it would be very good.
If nothing else, on Easy mode there should be much less use of assassins/priests/bishops by the AI.
Thanks.
note: I did not say anything should be changed for Hard games, just simply make Easy not so hellishly hard, especially when it comes to Assassins and revolts.
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 08-26-2002).]
solypsist
08-26-2002, 07:40
Hmmm...I've had no problems with the AI's agents, except that he/it tends to leave them squatting on my territories and clogging up my map-picture.
No problem with assassins....yet.
Mori Gabriel Syme
08-26-2002, 07:41
I'm still in my first game, playing on easy as the Byzantines. After losing a lot of priests to assassins, I started stationing spies in every province, starting where it happened the most. I've not finished creating enough spies because I've had to pause to create other units, but I catch a lot of assassins now & have only lost a about 3 priests in the past 50 turns.
It would hurt to tone it down in the Easy level a little bit, though.
Kraellin
08-26-2002, 07:45
various provinces have different ratings when it comes to revolts. playing spain, i know this is true, because portugal is absolutely nasty about revolting, whereas other provinces i've taken are absolute pussycats. i'm not sure if it's the 'zeal' rating or something we cant see, but it was done on purpose and is frankly, a good idea. a little surprise and unpredictability make for a better game.
as for the agents, that's the core of the diplomacy game. unlike stw/we/mi you can no longer overthrow a province by a ton of shinobi. this is good. you can still make it easier to take over something, though, through your agents...or not have it taken from you. i like the agent game. it forces you to defend yourself from surrepticious attacks and allows you to make alliances and do your own covert ops.
i'm currently finding, now that things are settling into fewer but bigger factions, that the agents seem to be quieting down a bit. most surviving factions have a decent anti-spy, anti-assassin network in place, so other factions dont attempt as many nasty operations. in fact, i'd dare say that if you dont make ranks early in the game for your agents, you're going to have a much harder time later on.
as for revolts in high loyalty provinces, someone talked about that in another thread and warned that it could happen. see if you cant find it again.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
I'm playing on normal and I'm more frustrated with not being able to select my units more. I could get carpal tunnel from trying to select my emissary that is surrounded by tons of other emissaries and priests, not to mention that it is almost impossible to attack certain provinces sometimes as there is no place to put in your army in the province.
I just finished a cathedral and my cardinals seem to be dying as soon as I put them in an enemy province, even though they are fellow Catholics and I thought cardinals are supposed to be harder to kill than bishops.
DarknScaly
08-26-2002, 07:49
From the feedback im getting at .com jrock its because folks aren't countering them or being proactive.
Especially people are taking the %loyalty figure as a guarentee that no problems will happen - this isnt so.
Few people seem to be actively protecting their provinces from revolts of any sorts, especially religious ones, and very few are even using spies to protect home provinces - thus giving the AI free reign to cause trouble.
People have "heretical" Governors and wonder why they get a relgious revolt... think border towers will stop assassins and spies once they are in the province (they wont) and all sorts of other things.
In short they are "asking for trouble".
I havent seen the manual so ive no idea how well these things are explained - i suspect it may not be very well.
But i have never really experienced many (if any) major problems from revolts using available units and some pre-planning, nor priestly invasions or spies or assassinations.
So far, and im happy to accept it may be a problem even so, it seems to me that its mainly people not knwoing how to counter and deal with things, rather than a problem in the coding.
After all - if i can deal with such issues "without too much effort" on expert its certainly "doable".
The final thing im discovering is that players arent PUSHING the same issues onto the AI faction - they are using Special Units defensively and not doing the same sort of thing the AI does... feedback so far suggests that very very few "disturb" the AI homelands by sending over thier own priests, cardinals, inquistors and thereby force the AI to looka fter its homelands rather than having free reign to disrupt yours.
Took me a while to figure all this out without a manual etc - so its "all there" just need to think about it and use what you've got... remember the Ai doesnt "cheat" in MTW - so its an even playing field (well, almost).
- -
Revolution strengths:
A VERY unhappy population will get a bigger revolting force (ooo) - religious revolts are nasty pretty much all the time... and these will always surprise you if you ahve no spies about to warn you.
The % loyalty is asnapshot only, a rough guide. I rather doubt that people are checking the V&Vs ont heir governors or looking at unit loyalty on troops produced int hsoe provinces to really determine the reasons for it.
Again - this may well be down to vague explanations in the manual. I ahvent seen it so i cant comment.
All ic ann say is that you dont need to have any real difficulties with these issues using the units int he game designed to deal with them and actively "looking" for the reasons behind revolutions.
They are always there - just got to find them.
I have either a bishop or an emissary in every province in the map. I'm pumping them from multiple provinces if their numbers drop. It's still annoying how hard it is to click on something.
What units do I fill my provinces with to defend against assassins?
Because my provinces are filled with enemy assassins that keep killing all my generals and my own assassins and emmisaries as soon as they are built. And I have border forts!!
DarknScaly
08-26-2002, 08:22
Spies.
Border forts ONLY get a chance to kill assassins and Spies as they ENTER and EXIT the province. Once inside, border forts are next to useless.
Assassins and emissaries "can" also detect and kill enemy assassins and spies, but they arent very good at it.
Sit a couple of spies in there and they will clear the place out - they also require no micormanagement and will gain ranks automajically as they trap the enemy agents.
Which builds you up a nicce little force of spies you can then use to affect the enemy provinces with (and far more likely to survive than a newbie spy)
Ah I guess my problem was I don't have whatever building builds spies, so I wasn't aware such a unit existed. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
(I haven't finished reading the manual yet... in fact I just checked and I'm on page ~34 and the special units are described on the next page! LOL
DarknScaly
08-26-2002, 08:47
Quote Originally posted by JRock:
Ah I guess my problem was I don't have whatever building builds spies, so I wasn't aware such a unit existed. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
(I haven't finished reading the manual yet... in fact I just checked and I'm on page ~34 and the special units are described on the next page! LOL[/QUOTE]
so:
"A lot of people over at .com seem to be talking about these two issues as well. They really need to be looked into for the patch."
actually means "oops i really should read the manual and remind people at .com to do the same before shouting something is a bug"?
;-)
(j/k, well, maybe not)
Quote Originally posted by DarknScaly:
so:
"A lot of people over at .com seem to be talking about these two issues as well. They really need to be looked into for the patch."
actually means "oops i really should read the manual and remind people at .com to do the same before shouting something is a bug"?
;-)
(j/k, well, maybe not)[/QUOTE]
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
No actually people over at .com ARE talking about these issues - why don't you go look instead of trying to be silly.
I know you've said this several times, but how exactly do you check unit loyalty. I looked on the tactical screen and I see morale, but where is loyalty? Sorry, I'm still not clear on where that is indicated. Thanks.
Grifman
DoJo MoJo I
08-26-2002, 09:07
Having _many_ assassins siting in the target province on counter spying helps a lot, as do Guard Towers.
I had 4 generals in one province killed in that many turns in a game and after I put 6 assassins in the AI stopped the attacks after I killed about 8 attackers.....
I would agree though, the Assassin thing, both with the players Generals as target in the Home Provinces, and his emmisary as target in other AI player areas seems way to hyper on easy, the Map is really clogged up with Bishops, Assassins, Princesses, Emmisarys rushing back and forth.
This is not knocking the Game BTW, it can add an interesting fun feature if your pro-active in also using this feature against the AI, but it takes up a lot of time, money, building slots and moving units around.
DarknScaly
08-26-2002, 09:09
Quote Originally posted by JRock:
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif
No actually people over at .com ARE talking about these issues - why don't you go look instead of trying to be silly.[/QUOTE]
Look? What about the posts by me under Darkmoor_Dragon on those very threads jrock...?
What should have been done is to explain them better in the manual or for people to read the manual even...
no need to be "silly" about it though.
--
grif
On the strat screen on the unit details. Jusr giht click as with generals and you see the info.
If you produce a unit in a province with low loyalty its reflected in their stats on that panel. (it'l be low also)
Quote Originally posted by DoJo MoJo I:
I would agree though, ... the Map is really clogged up with Bishops, Assassins, Princesses, Emmisarys rushing back and forth [on easy mode].
[/QUOTE]
Yup, that was mainly the point I was making with the thread - they should fix Easy mode so there's less special units used by the AI. Currently, it's overload even on Easy.
You don't need the manual. I've used the tech-tree more. You need castle and tavern which means, by the time you get a few trade routes up, you can start upgrading castles in every province you have so that you can build to whatever unit you need once the need arises. I always upgrade farms, border forts and castles on provinces I don't need to produce a certain type yet.
Ii Naomasa
08-26-2002, 20:50
Yes, the spy/assassin/religion aspect takes a bit getting used to and they do clutter up the map (although wait until you're in the last century or so and if you've dealt a few nasty blows to the remaining powerhouse faction...his provinces will be filled with armies of one or two units...why the AI won't merge them is beyond me).
It also seems to vary. My short-lived, doomed French game featured few assassination. My Egyptian one (which I'm a few decades from winning, although I made the mistake of not developing a navy, which is now killing me because the remaining AI super power constantly lands giant amounts of troops at random coastal provinces, including sacking my capital once) had my assassins being the only dominant killers, although my priests didn't fair too well.
My latest English campaign, though...I swear, every title I gave was an immediate death warrant. It's funny to see four 'failed assassination' missions on your Chamberlain and then see a fifth successful one...that's a lot of manpower thrown towards an old general who I keep around because of his acumen. This latest campaign taught me the value of a good counter-espionage infrastructure. Nowadays my own borders are safe and every turn I get three to six 'whipping' sounds to indicate captured assassins.
I don't know if it's intentional or coincidental, but the AI now REALLY likes to park all its non-moving special units within my borders...maybe they like the safety. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
GAH!
As ruler of Spain, Vanya had neglected His security appratus for some time. Next thing ya know, about 10 assasinations hit home! GAH! Double-GAH! Fortunately, no heirs were cut down. But a message popped up afterwards saying that the security hole was so big that it recommended Vanya institute a Department of Homeland Security. Within a couple of years of building forts and whatnont, Vanya whipped many assasins to death. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif Now, Vanya knows they are Byzantine pigs. And the whippings are rampant now... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif Currently, Spain is on 'yellow'... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
One of these days... a Spanish Jinete will ride into Connynople and bitch-slap that prissy emperor... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif
GAH!
[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 08-26-2002).]
Forward Observer
08-26-2002, 22:50
Vanya, you are weird, but a hoot none the less. Your posts almost always brighten my day.
Cheers
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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
DarknScaly,
The manual is excellent in my opinion. Every aspect of the game is documented clearly and concisely. Off hand, I can't think of any gameplay feature that was omitted. There is no index, but the contents is very detailed. The included techtree and unit prerequisite chart complete the picture. The readme has some important corrections to the manual.
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